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Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: Verderer on July 12, 2015, 11:03:12 PM

Title: About LBMS shield transfers and shields in general
Post by: Verderer on July 12, 2015, 11:03:12 PM: I am about to use some Little Big Men Studios transfers, and wanted to make sure I get this right. Firstly, do you need a glossy varnish base, like for regular transfers to avoid silvering? The instructions say only to paint shield white, can I trust that?

And secondly, the procedure seems odd to someone who's never used them before. From what I gather from the instructions, you first remove the transparent film, then stick the cut transfer face down (?) on the shield, and then wet it to remove the white backing? So these are kind mirror images on the transfer sheet?

And finally, I first meant to paint the rims of these round shields for Gripping Beast dark age warriors in metallic color, like I am used to with fantasy minis. But the embossed rims are kinda irregular, too irregular for metal I think. And looking at pics of painted minis, it seems the rims are often painted brown by many? So would the rims be wood or leather, or something, rather than metal? And what about ones which have nail heads showing on the rims? What color would you paint them?
Title: Re: About LBMS shield transfers and shields in general
Post by: clibinarium on July 12, 2015, 11:13:37 PM: They are a bit counter-intuitive if you are used to waterslide transfers, but the instructions need to be followed carefully; not that they are difficult but they are somewhat different process. I found I needed a couple of goes before I got it, but when I did its actually easy (I practised on a flat surface first and got it right).
The white surface is essential, as they are slightly translucent, and the background colour will show through certain transfer colours, so they are designed with a white background in mind.

Once you get the hang of it (and you will quickly) you'll get great results.
Title: Re: About LBMS shield transfers and shields in general
Post by: Atheling on July 12, 2015, 11:19:26 PM: This is the sequence.....

1/ White base is best.

2/ Apply transfer.

3/ Leave overnight (or for 24 hours to be extra cautious)

4/ Apply Gloss varnish (I use Vallejo Game Colour Gloss Varnish)

5/ Apply Matt Varnish

Bingo! :)

Darrell.
Title: Re: About LBMS shield transfers and shields in general
Post by: Verderer on July 13, 2015, 12:26:33 AM: Quote from: Atheling on July 12, 2015, 11:19:26 PM
This is the sequence.....

1/ White base is best.

2/ Apply transfer.

3/ Leave overnight (or for 24 hours to be extra cautious)

4/ Apply Gloss varnish (I use Vallejo Game Colour Gloss Varnish)

5/ Apply Matt Varnish

Bingo! :)

Darrell.

Ok thanks, I assume wetting & removing the white backing comes in stage two?

Also, why's both glossy and matte varnish needed? Just matte won't do?
Title: Re: About LBMS shield transfers and shields in general
Post by: Atheling on July 13, 2015, 06:12:17 AM: Quote from: Verderer on July 13, 2015, 12:26:33 AM
Ok thanks, I assume wetting & removing the white backing comes in stage two?

Yeah, sorry, I dap a cpuple of drops of watyer on with my little finger- the trick is to make sure the transfer is good and wet.

Quote from: Verderer on July 13, 2015, 12:26:33 AM
Also, why's both glossy and matte varnish needed? Just matte won't do?

To be honest I've never tried it and always played it safe and used gloss. I always use a polyurethane Humbrol Gloss then W&N Matt Professional Acrylic Spray on all of my mini's to get a good flat matt finish (Thanks Jeff ;) :) - I used to use HGM Matt Varinish but W&N Spray is superior) .

in the case of using LBM's I'd use the Vallejo Gloss paint on varnish as an extra protective layer to protect the transfer from any adverse effect the polyurethane varnish might have on the transfer.

To be honest, I sometimes wonder if I'd be better off painting the shields myself (ie quicker!). I can get a result at least as good as some LBM's sometimes- see below:

Darrell.
Title: Re: About LBMS shield transfers and shields in general
Post by: Verderer on July 13, 2015, 10:01:43 AM: Alright, thanks again gents. I may try just the matt varnish on some of them, just to compare results. I mean the only difference between matt and glossy is the gloss, right? Why would it matter? Interesting...

I know when using regular transfers, glossy base + transfer + glossy on top + matt to finish is the proper way to do it.

I have had best results with Vallejo Game Color glossy and matt when using brushes, so I will continue using them.
Title: Re: About LBMS shield transfers and shields in general
Post by: Atheling on July 13, 2015, 10:09:53 AM: Quote from: Verderer on July 13, 2015, 10:01:43 AM
Alright, thanks again gents. I may try just the matt varnish on some of them, just to compare results. I mean the only difference between matt and glossy is the gloss, right? Why would it matter? Interesting...

Gloss in in general a lot tougher then Matt....... especially the polyurethane variety.

Darrell.
Title: Re: About LBMS shield transfers and shields in general
Post by: Verderer on July 13, 2015, 10:18:04 AM: Yes, I guess so.

I don't usually varnish my plastic minis, and they seem to fare better than metals which I do varnish for game use. Usually the problem is bits snapping off, not flaking or scratched paint.
Title: Re: About LBMS shield transfers and shields in general
Post by: Chris Steadman on July 13, 2015, 11:20:55 AM: Quote from: Atheling on July 13, 2015, 10:09:53 AM
Gloss in in general a lot tougher then Matt....... especially the polyurethane variety.

Darrell.

My understanding is, yes polyurethane varnishes are tougher, but that artists' gloss varnishes are no tougher than artists' matt varnishes. But there is a lot of hobbylore around the subject and I am no chemist ;)
Title: Re: About LBMS shield transfers and shields in general
Post by: Harry Faversham on July 13, 2015, 01:05:00 PM: Here's a tip from a man that know...

http://bigredbat.blogspot.co.uk/2009/09/bigredbats-littlest-invention.html

:)
Title: Re: About LBMS shield transfers and shields in general
Post by: Verderer on July 13, 2015, 01:13:03 PM: I dunno looks risky... regular transfer 'softeners' like Solva-set and Micro-sol can be used with these transfers as well, if sticking/conforming to shape is a problem? I seem to recall the instructions say so?
Title: Re: About LBMS shield transfers and shields in general
Post by: Harry Faversham on July 13, 2015, 01:35:33 PM: Verderer, tried the method on over 100 Hoplons...
more risk of getting hit by a meteorite than spoiling a transfer.

;)
Title: Re: About LBMS shield transfers and shields in general
Post by: Captain Blood on July 13, 2015, 01:41:05 PM: Got to say, although they are beautiful designs and almost completely ubiquitous across about 95% of the ancient and medieval wargames armies I see here and elsewhere, having dipped a toe into LBMS transfers with my early Saxons (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=66227.0) I am not a fan :(

I have found that once you have cut out your shield decal (to be fair, the early Saxon 'buckler' ones are tiny), on some of them it's just impossible to split and separate the different layers.
In trying to peel off the clear plastic backing sheet, it often lifts off the decal itself and one or two sub-layers of the fibrous paper carrier sheet. In the process of then trying to separate the bit you want from the bits you don't, it's extremely difficult not to screw up the decal completely. So I have found that around one in four are wasted. Which I don't think is very good :-[

I've also found that you have to do so much work touching in the shield edges around the design, and then a little bit of overpainting of the main design to make the whole thing blend in, that it's frankly a pain in the bum.

And finally, however much varnish you slap on (and I must confess, I've only used a couple of generous layers of W&N matt Galeria artists acrylic varnish on mine), the decals still seem to shrink slightly and lift at the edges after a while. Which gives a slightly unattractive ghosting effect at the edge of the pattern...

I haven't yet tried any of the large (and gorgeous) Late Roman / Arthurian shield decals. Maybe they will be better, being that much bigger. But the small ones are a devil to handle - and I am by no means an inexperienced modeller and painter... :?

So take care...
Title: Re: About LBMS shield transfers and shields in general
Post by: Verderer on July 13, 2015, 08:11:21 PM: My, don't like the sound of that at all... I guess I will first paint the shield white, then apply gloss varnish, and only then the transfer? Then glossy & matt varnish etc. In other words, just like with regular transfers. It should help with sticking and fading the edges and so on.
Title: Re: About LBMS shield transfers and shields in general
Post by: Old Guy on July 13, 2015, 09:35:02 PM: I have used LBMS on around 300+ figures and have found trouble with literally a handful of transfers which did not want to split. I do what it says on the tin with a white undercoat, I then use brush on matt varnish on shield and figure then a spray of anti-shine on the whole thing. No problems at all so far.

Someone said a tip was to separate the sheet then put it back before cutting, this supposedly makes it easier to come off, but I cannot testify to this.
Title: Re: About LBMS shield transfers and shields in general
Post by: Verderer on July 13, 2015, 10:43:43 PM: I have now tried it myself, I didn't have any trouble with peeling the film or the backing paper. What I do struggle with is that the transfer doesnt' seem to want to settle down nicely. Part of the problem is that the transfer is so large it 'hangs' on the rims, and the centre hole doesn't seem large enough for the boss. I cut it a little larger, and it seems to help. I am now using Micro-set to see if I can make them sit nicely on the shield.
Title: Re: About LBMS shield transfers and shields in general
Post by: Atheling on July 14, 2015, 06:27:40 AM: Quote from: Old Guy on July 13, 2015, 09:35:02 PM
I have used LBMS on around 300+ figures and have found trouble with literally a handful of transfers which did not want to split.

This is more akin to my experience too. I merely sent Steve at LBM an e-mail and he replaced the ones that were duds.

i do happen to agree with Captain Blood though, by the time you've faffed about one may as well have painted the shields n some cases.

Darrell.
Title: Re: About LBMS shield transfers and shields in general
Post by: Verderer on July 14, 2015, 09:49:18 AM: Alright, I have applied Micro-sol a couple of times, as some of the more troublesome transfers didn't want to settle in. Great thing about this stuff is you can apply it several times, even after the previous application has dried out, if the transfer doesn't look ok. It didn't seem to affect the transfer either. So that's good.

So the most trouble I got from the centre hole of the transfer, because they were cut maybe too snug, and it was difficult to align the hole properly because view to the transfer is blocked by the backing paper. And it seemed that in this sheet either the backing paper and or the backing papet was cut in a little too small, so setting it in place was rather hard if not impossible. So I cut the holes right up to the lines of the centre graphic image, and that seems to help. You need to be careful with this though.

Likewise the transfers seemed just a little too large when cut along the edge line, so you could maybe cut along the inside of this line, so the transfer would settle quicker inside the rim edge. I guess these are things I will get right quicker with a little experience.

So now the transfers lie pretty good in place, and I will apply varnish and then fix the rim with paint a little, and I should be done. I can post some photos of the end result? I deliberately chose simple images with no heraldic/ornamental graphics, more like texture and damage. So they're not flashy, but the warriors are pretty plain as well.
Title: Re: About LBMS shield transfers and shields in general
Post by: Too Bo Coo on July 14, 2015, 10:01:41 AM: I've used a ton of LBMS decals and cannot recommend them highly enough. I've never had a problem with them at all.

1) Paint shield face white.

2) Paint on gloss coat

3)Apply Mocro-set

4) apply decal as per instructions

5) apply micro-sol

6) spray gloss then matt in order that Darrell recommended.
Title: Re: About LBMS shield transfers and shields in general
Post by: Captain Blood on July 14, 2015, 11:22:57 AM: Quote from: Verderer on July 13, 2015, 10:43:43 PM
What I do struggle with is that the transfer doesnt' seem to want to settle down nicely.

Yes, that's another problem I've had with them. The decal tends to 'balloon' a little bit around the boss rather than sitting flat right across the surface of the shield. Is this because air or water gets trapped behind the decal? Not sure, but in some cases, I've had to put a tiny slit in the decal with the tip of a craft knife to get it sit down properly on the shield, including around the boss...

Too Boo Coo - I'm glad you've never had a problem with them at all. I've only used about 20, but I've had problems with at least half of them. So I cannot share your enthusiasm. As I say though, I've been using them on very small and rimless shields, which are probably much more fiddly than most larger shields.
Title: Re: About LBMS shield transfers and shields in general
Post by: Too Bo Coo on July 14, 2015, 11:43:06 AM: Quote from: Captain Blood on July 14, 2015, 11:22:57 AM
Yes, that's another problem I've had with them. The decal tends to 'balloon' a little bit around the boss rather than sitting flat right across the surface of the shield. Is this because air or water gets trapped behind the decal? Not sure, but in some cases, I've had to put a tiny slit in the decal with the tip of a craft knife to get it sit down properly on the shield, including around the boss...

Too Boo Coo - I'm glad you've never had a problem with them at all. I've only used about 20, but I've had problems with at least half of them. So I cannot share your enthusiasm. As I say though, I've been using them on very small and rimless shields, which are probably much more fiddly than most larger shields.

I was really surprised to read the problems people have encountered.... Your work is among my favorite on LAF, and I doubt highly that you've suffered a 'user error'. I guess all products are suitable to bad batches.
Title: Re: About LBMS shield transfers and shields in general
Post by: Verderer on July 14, 2015, 10:13:46 PM: Ok, managed to take a few shots, the light is rather harsh and yellow, but I tried to show if any reflections remain. All in all, I am fairly happy with the result.

(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h216/JoseKeppila/figut/darkage/DA_warriors_zpszgd8yjkk.jpg)

(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h216/JoseKeppila/figut/darkage/DA_detail1_zps9yldetzf.jpg)

(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h216/JoseKeppila/figut/darkage/DA_detail2_zpsqzsfh4lz.jpg)

Of course, these sort of designs are maybe not the best use for transfers, as you could paint them yourself, and critics might say the end result looks a bit cartoony. I have a feeling transfers will really be best with intricate patterns and designs which would be rather hard to paint (and consistently so) on a bunch of minis?
Title: Re: About LBMS shield transfers and shields in general
Post by: Cubs on July 15, 2015, 09:23:57 AM: They look great.

I've used a few of the LBMS transfers and the shield boss issue is one that annoys me, but after some awkward trimming (tricky shape and angle to work around) it's usually sorted. Never had the ballooning one, though so can't I comment on that. Overall I do think they're worth using, because of the work I'd have to put in to get the same result freehand, but they do need a little work to get right.

PS. I use a paint-on matt varnish over the top when done, which seals it in nicely without being too glossy before the overall spray varnish.
Title: Re: About LBMS shield transfers and shields in general
Post by: Atheling on July 15, 2015, 09:33:55 AM: Quote from: Cubs on July 15, 2015, 09:23:57 AM
Never had the ballooning one, though so can't I comment on that.

Me neither though I have had a few transfers that wouldn't come cleanly off the backing paper- having said that, I just got in contact with Steve via e-mail and he sorted it very quickly.

Darrell.
Title: Re: About LBMS shield transfers and shields in general
Post by: Paul on July 15, 2015, 12:26:09 PM: Matt White base, thin smear of PVA, let it go tacky, remove the Transfer with the tip of a Paintbrush and apply. The PVA goes a wee bit runny allowing the Transfer to be positioned, brush down any creases, let dry then add a layer of thinned down PVA. Worked fine with the LBMS Transfers in 1/72nd and for all waterslide Transfers.
Title: Re: About LBMS shield transfers and shields in general
Post by: rumacara on July 15, 2015, 12:42:00 PM: I´ve never used LBMS shield transfers but yours look great. :-* :-*
Nice painting Juha.
Title: Re: About LBMS shield transfers and shields in general
Post by: Atheling on July 15, 2015, 01:10:34 PM: Nothing wrong with these (Wargames Standard):

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qiveNpvEK-M/VQvMDw_vKqI/AAAAAAAAU3w/UjUx8T-ao9I/s1600/P1040450.JPG)

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-axh-s78syrA/VQvMD6Im2bI/AAAAAAAAU3s/aKixrjtRUvg/s1600/P1040451.JPG)

Same method as described above.

Darrell.
Title: Re: About LBMS shield transfers and shields in general
Post by: WillieB on July 15, 2015, 02:39:17 PM: I'm with Captain Blood here. I do use the LBM decals because they are simply the very best but sometimes they can be a pain in the ...
The real small ones ( like for example the Saxon and Irish bucklers) separate from the carrier sheet with difficulty.
I *think* I've found a way in the meantime but since it involves scratching at the backing like a demented cat with a finger nail, it's a bit hard to explain.

Also, gloss coat the white painted shield with varnish- and wet it with water before applying the transfer- so you have a least a small chance to reposition it somewhat.
I must say I'm intrigued by the PVA glue system and will try that out soonish.

You almost invariably need to touch up the rims with paint and some of the colours are hard to reproduce even when using oil paint like I do.
Added bonus for the oil paint is that you can use something like an impasto technique to cover up all the seams.

After the decals have dried a few of them curl at the edges. Luckily I only had very few doing this. Solution was to trim the edges with a very, very sharp razor blade in a plastic handle.
Same if the decals are too large and overhang the shield.

The real misery is with shield-bosses that aren't exactly in the middle of the shield. Obviously that's not LBM's fault but the figure manufacturer. In those case make it easy on yourself and simply carve off the boss. It's very simple to make a new one with a riveting punch and 0.50 plastic card. Punch out a hole sufficiently large to cover the cut-out and then a smaller one for the actual boss. Use the thinnest plasticard you can find and you'll find they come out slightly convex. Glue together with liquid cement and then the whole thing onto the decalled shield with superglue. With a bit of practice you can easily make 50-60 shield-bosses in an hour.
You can of course also use the punch for enlarging some of the 'holes' on the decals.
Title: Re: About LBMS shield transfers and shields in general
Post by: Verderer on July 15, 2015, 03:03:01 PM: For petey's sake folks, buy some Micro-sol (or equivalent), it's great stuff! No white glue experiments or pressing down with blutak. At least on basis of my experiment, it works a charm in settling the transfer.
Title: Re: About LBMS shield transfers and shields in general
Post by: Too Bo Coo on July 15, 2015, 03:06:15 PM: Quote from: Verderer on July 15, 2015, 03:03:01 PM
For petey's sake folks, buy some Micro-sol (or equivalent), it's great stuff! No white glue experiments or pressing down with blutak. At least on basis of my experiment, it works a charm in settling the transfer.

Micro set to set it up for the decal, let dry, then micro sol to get it all snug and melt the edges a bit. As I wrote, never had a problem.
Title: Re: About LBMS shield transfers and shields in general
Post by: Atheling on July 16, 2015, 08:15:04 AM: Quote from: WillieB on July 15, 2015, 02:39:17 PM
I'm with Captain Blood here. I do use the LBM decals because they are simply the very best but sometimes they can be a pain in the ...

I agree, they can be a pain but the more intricate designs do save time. I'm not so sure about the less intricate ones.... i should know, I used to paint for GB and have applied plenty of the damn things in my time! :)

Darrell.