Lead Adventure Forum
Other Stuff => Workbench => Topic started by: Charlie_ on August 11, 2015, 08:23:36 PM
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I gave up wargaming many years ago. Back in the day I was a WFB player.
I'm going to get back into it, and I'm going for a historical 15th century project that can double-up for A Song Of Ice And Fire. I will be using the Perry Miniatures War Of The Roses plastic kits (no doubt with the odd metal figure in there too later).
Now a few years back I did briefly have a go at getting back into the painting side of things at least, and purchased some Citadel paints and a number of old OOP metal citadel models I had always admired (from ebay). I painted up a few of them but lost interest / enthusiasm. However I still have the paints, and today as I type this I've started to get some brushwork practice back in on those old metal figs I still kept hold of.
Now, I'm gonna do this project right! So it's time to buy some equipment.
I'm gonna be getting the Perry kits from Wayland games, and thought I'd add this to my order.
http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/army-painter-tools/13510-plastic-starter-set
Any thoughts? In particular on the glue... I'm going to be assembling a lot of plastic soldiers, and will happily pay a little extra for a better product.
Now, paint.... I don't want to stay with Citadel. I won't ever need many colours, as I like to blend a lot. So I'll only need one brown, one red, one blue, etc....
The one thing that really puts me off Citadel paints these days is not the price, it's the ridiculous names! I could cope with Goblin Green, Bleached Bone, Chainmail, Bestial Brown....
But.... Druchii Violet?? Athonian Camoshade??? Nurgle's Rot??? BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOOD????
Seriously? Those names really put me off.
So I hear Vallejo is the way to go. Is that true? If someone could reccomend what basic colours I should have, that would be great.
The one Citadel colour I love and will need a good replacement for is Bleached Bone. That colour always came in handy for me!
I want to be taking some good quality photos of my progress on this project, so I'm going to make a lightbox to help me out, following a guide I found here on this forum (sorry, I can't remember who was responsibly for it right now!).
If anyone wants to chime in and give me some tips as to which brands are good, which ones are worth avoiding, hints with vallejo paints, anything really, I'm all ears!
Consider me a beginner if you want, or someone who has opened their eyes and seen the gaming world being Games Workshop for the first time.
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Welcome back
If you remember the old Citadel Paint colours, then the Vallejo Game Colour range has very similar colours and colour names.
I would stay with Citadel for metals as I am not very keen on some of the Vallejo ones.
I think Bone White is the equivelant to GW Bleached Bone.
http://www.beastsofwar.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/3-Colours-Vallejo-Swatch.jpg (http://www.beastsofwar.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/3-Colours-Vallejo-Swatch.jpg)
I suggest you buy Revell Contacta Liquid glue in a bottle with a brush. This should be in most good model stores.
http://www.revell.de/en/products/colors-glue-co/glue/id/39601.html (http://www.revell.de/en/products/colors-glue-co/glue/id/39601.html)
It is worth investing in a good pair of sprue cutters.
I have a pair from Games Workshop which are quite good and an expensive pair from Tamiya that are fantastic.
ITEM 74035 Sharp Pointed Side Cutters for Plastic - The Tamiya cutters cut so flush that I rarely need to file or sand the stub.
(http://www.tamiyausa.com/images/product/510/74035/custom_head.jpg)
Mick
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If you remember the old Citadel Paint colours, then the Vallejo Game Colour range has very similar colours and colour names.
I would stay with Citadel for metals as I am not very keen on some of the Vallejo ones.
I think Bone White is the equivelant to GW Bleached Bone.
I suggest you buy Revell Contacta Liquid glue in a bottle with a brush. This should be in most good model stores.
It is worth investing in a good pair of sprue cutters.
I have a pair from Games Workshop which are quite good and an expensive pair from Tamiya that are fantastic.
ITEM 74035 Sharp Pointed Side Cutters for Plastic - The Tamiya cutters cut so flush that I rarely need to file or sand the stub.
Interesting, I'd never really considered spending much on cutters, but I could be convinced it's worth it!
The one in the 'starter package' I linked seems to be this one.
http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/army-painter-tools/13522-precision-plastic-cutters
As for the glue, again I'd not considered applying with a brush before. How fine is the brush?
Might be useful to get one of these as well, or is the needle applicator redundant?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Revell-Contacta-Liquid-Professional-Applicator/dp/B000RMJ2H8/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1439322725&sr=8-3&keywords=revell+liquid+glue
Has anyone tried the GW 'liquid green stuff'? If it does what it says on the tin, it could be very useful!
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Vallejo Game Colour are very handy paints - they have good coverage, and I like the dropper bottles.
Sprue cutters are very handy - I can't remember what I paid for mine - but they are very useful.
Brush on liquid polystyrene cement is also the business, back in the day I only used to use poly cement in a tube and this was always really messy. The brush on stuff is great really easy to control - to either get a little amount on, or to get lots on to join bigger parts. The brush is about the size of a no.2 model painting brush. As the liquid cement is so thin if you get a bit extra on, it doesn't cause a mess.
A set of needle files is very useful.
eBay is generally useful for picking up these various bits and pieces - unless you are lucky enough to have a good local model shop.
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I find that Contacta with the tube applicator dries up, so the brush is more reliable.
Use real green stuff. I am not impressed with the liquid.
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Cote d arms paints are the original citadel paints rebranded if any use
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Ok, so I'll get a cement with brush, hadn't thought of that, thanks guys.
As for paints.... I've been browsing both the vallejo and citadel ranges and guess I'll take a select few from both.
The paints I need are....
Black and white, obviously.
A good dark brown.
A bright red and a bright blue (what used to be Blood Red and Enchanted Blue).
I guess a yellow and a green too.
A pale flesh tone (I am used to Elf Flesh).
Bleached bone.
Metal, perhaps one dark and one bright.
And also what used to be called Snakebite Leather...
Having just types that out, I guess I don't need many. The joys of blending!
But yeah, Bleached Bone and Snakebite Leather... If anyone knows what the Vallejo or the modern Citadel equivalents are, I wanna know!
Cote d arms paints are the original citadel paints rebranded if any use
Googling now!
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Aha!
Very interesting!
https://www.hiveworldterra.co.uk/Article/view_CoatDArmsConversionChart.html
http://www.blackhat.co.uk/online_shop/index.php?cPath=21&osCsid=vuknsnf554dsf9hqt1ljvdfjk2
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The new Citadel paints range contains a lot of useful colours. The Base reds have very good coverage, as do the Base white and yellow. There are some nice browns in there as well - XV-88 and Zandri Dust.
Weirdly, their range of blues, previously excellent, now looks a bit odd - chalky and white-ish.
I agree with the names though - "Inspector Mournfang-Brown of Scotland Yard to see you, My Lord..."
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I find that Contacta with the tube applicator dries up, so the brush is more reliable.
Quick poke with a piece of wire does the trick.
What was the question again? ;D
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Google works wonders again.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Paint_Range_Compatibility_Chart
Including old Citadel, new Citadel, Coat D'arms and Vallejo.
So looks like for bleached bone, I want Vallejo Bonewhite or Coat D'arms Bone.
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For paints, I'd actually suggest going with Army Painter or Reaper kits to start out with.
The only GW thing that I would really suggest acquiring if you come across one is one of the grass mats that they made before discontinuing it to go with the realm of battle because it's a very nice, portable, heavy duty, piece of kit that ends up being one of the most useful things to play on for just about any scale or size game up to a 6'x4' play area.
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I generally use Citadel paints, but have given up on their white - both versions are poorly produced - and have switched to Vallejo for that. Some of the Army Painter metallics also cover better than Citadel.
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Charlie_
I use mainly GW Citadel paints (the current generation) and Vallejo. They're both pretty reliably matt, with high pigmentation, and can be thinned and mixed easily.
Personally, I can't use Coat D'Arms - I find most of the colours dry shiny, and I hate painting with shiny paints (unless they're supposed to be shiny - i.e. metallic)
The best bone colour I've found is GW Ushabti Bone - this is a whisker darker than the old Bleached Bone, but much the same tonally.
I've always used Revell Contacta liquid polystyrene cement with the needle dispenser for my Perry plastics. It's absolutely perfect for the job.
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Thanks for all the tips guys.
I've gone and ordered a few modelling bits and pieces following recommendations here, so will be ready to start assembling when I take the plunge and order the Perry kits!
The paints can wait til later. But I've gone through all the citadel paints I have right now, and a lot of them (ie the ones I haven't used much) are honestly as good as new. So I will only really need to get a few, and using the above chart I posted I can find decide between the modern Citadel or Vallejo equivalent of the ones I'm used to, and get them all through one order from Wayland Games. And as I won't need as many as I first thought, I can afford to get a few extras. Perhaps I will get both Citadel Ushabti Bone and Vallejo Bonewhite and see which I like best?
I'm hearing a few people say Army Painter for metallics? Perhaps I will do that.
I've been enjoying putting my painting skills back in practice on some old metal Citadel wood elves (the late 80s range). Perhaps I'll post up a few pictures in the next few days!
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The liquid green stuff is very handy - the GW one (which is green) does tend to dry out in the pot rather quickly. There is a vallejo version (which is white) called plastic putty, which seems to work just the same, but also seems to keep much better in the dropper style bottle.
If you haven't ordered from Wayland yet, I would look around for another supplier - they are notoriously slow at shipping stuff. And it seems impossible to find out if they have stuff in stock or not.
Personally I like minibits.net (an off shoot of Pendraken Miniatures) for modelling bits and pieces. Great Escape Games are pretty good for plastic kits.
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Good to know about the Vallejo substitute! I liked liquid greenstuff's utility, but threw away my pot barely used as it was total shit for not going off.
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Try Reaper miniature master paints, I really like the triads of paint you can get 3 like color paints for around $8($10 from reaper) so even though you say you don't blend these will allow you to with out much trouble
http://www.reapermini.com/OnlineStore/triads
yes some have the crazy names but not to crazy
These reds are my favorite so far
http://www.reapermini.com/OnlineStore/triads/latest/09745
Hope you like them
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The Vallejo filler also sands nicely, so is great for filling tiny scratches on flat surfaces, though I find it a little 'blobby' to apply. TBH for gap filling in plastics I tend to use greenstuff, sprue shavings dissolved in the glue and (very rarely) GW liquid GS.
Is a (proper) scalpel on your list? Very handy for scraping off mould lines on plastics. IIRC I use a no.15 blade.
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TBH for gap filling in plastics I tend to use... sprue shavings dissolved in the glue
:)
Yep - me too
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I've spent a lot of time, money and effort on different materials over the years, and whereas I do think some things are worth paying more for, others are very borderline/candidates for money-saving.
Where tools are concerned, it's always worth looking in a hardware store first - the tools, putties, and adhesives are all usually better quality and cheaper than their (usually re-branded) hobby counterparts.
My personal suggestions, based on my experience and preference then:
Files
Multipart plastic kits have lots of mouldlines. The material is easy enough to work with, but it is bothersome to remove them all.
- Two steel needle files (flat and half-round) are super-useful here, and it's worth getting some good ones from a hardware store. You can check these in person to ensure that they have a good, fine, even, and sharp cutting face. When using these on metals, rub a touch of chalk or talc on them first so that they don't get gummed-up and dull.
- Emery boards, like those used for ladies' nails are great for finishing to achieve smooth surfaces on bigger areas. Very cheap to buy, but handy to use.
- Electric manicure nail drill. Not essential by any means, but for just a few pounds, this tool is very handy for removing a lot of mouldlines quickly from plastic models. Fetching pink colour notwithstanding, these can be had cheaply on the likes of Amazon for a fiver, are usually powered with a pair of AA batteries, and are much easier to use than mucking about with over-priced scrapers. A quick pass, followed by a finish with either a file or emery board, and you're done.
Knives
Get a set of decent all-metal ones from a proper brand like X-Acto or Maxx. Cheap brands have plastic collets (dangerous) and short handles (awkward to hold and use). Expect to spend about £15-20 for a decent set of three. Spare blades from Swann Morton are cheap enough to buy, and you can get razor saw attachments too for big cuts if needed. Given how many accidents hobbyists have with knives, best to get a good set that will be sturdy and safe to use - bonus is that they will last you for life (mine have done me for over twenty years so far!).
Cutters
Get a good set with a flush face. I have some posh ones made by Lindstrom because the cheaper pair I had before started hurting my hands! Other good brands are available, and decent pair will last you a lifetime of hobbying. A good pair will also cut more easily and cleanly, which also saves you time and clean-up work.
Putty
- Milliput is cheap (less than £2/pack for yellow-grey) and tools very well indeed when fully cured. It can both be softened and smoothed with water until it's cured too, and the "Milliput Wash" is an old modellers' classic. Perfect for bulking up conversions, and for bases - either used when just mixed to sculpt with, or after it's cured as broken stone or for carving patterns into.
- Green stuff (or "Kneadatite", to use it's official name) is very common in the hobby. Pricey though, so shop around and get a bigger pack of it. best to get the stuff that comes with yellow and blue parts separate so that they keep better. Cut off smaller sections for use, and store the rest in the freezer to keep it fresh.
- Grey stuff (usually known by it's brand-name "ProCreate") is just like greenstuff, but is easier to work with when freshly mixed. I prefer it personally, but people's preferences are all equally valid here I think.
Drills
You may need a pin-vice drill. I'd get a manual one, they're normally about £5-6 online. These are very useful for drilling small holes to pin model parts together. Whilst this may be of less concern with plastic figures than metal ones, for drilling out hands for flagpoles/spears/etc they are still invaluable.
For drill bits, I buy them online. Get ones which are ground not rolled (more even, sharper, less likely to stick and break inside the model) even though they are a touch more expensive. I would buy these after you know what diameter rods/pins you need so that you get bits that are 0.1mm bigger. A pack of 5-10 are sually about £2 delivered. I would go with carbide bits over high-speed-steel (HSS), but carbide coatings on HSS is fine too.
When you use the drill, an old trick is to drill into a wax candle first, then the model. This helps to stop the drill bit sticking in the model and breaking. You can use oil and such too, but I find it tricky to clean up afterwards - any residue risks spoiling the bond of the glued joint.
Glues
Buy these from a hardware store. Seriously. The GW glue may be the same as an industrial brand, and may even have the same cost/volume/consistency. However, most hobby/craft glues have less adhesive content in them than the industrial equivalents (i.e., they are effectively diluted even though it may be hard to tell sometimes).
For gluing plastics, the Revell Contacta with needle applicator is popular. If the needle gets gummed up, wave the needle briefly through a lighter flame to unclog it. Do be very careful in doing this though, and give the needle half a minute to fully cool before you use the glue again! It'll leave the needle working like new however.
I prefer to use a solvent like Ambroid Pro-Weld or EMA Plastic Weld for plastics. Use a brush to apply a little to a joint you're holding closed. The gap will draw the solvent into it and give a fast strong bond. You can also brush a little over rough areas on plastic models to smooth the surface (for example, where you've filed an area, or not quite removed a mouldline completely).
Undercoat
Use automotive spray-on primer. Halfords in the UK is where I usually get mine.
It's cheap, fine, covers well, and is forgiving of ambient conditions. White and black are the common colours, but I like grey as it gives me the best of both worlds and is easy to see the details on the model. Other colours are available, like red, browns, greens, and tans. If you have lots of metal to do, you can also get metallic colours too.
I don't bother with hobby primers any more - too expensive, too inconsistent/temperamental, and it's usually unclear if you buying primer or regular paint.
Paint
Citadel is easy to get hold of. It's expensive though, and has a wide variety of different consistencies which you may or may not appreciate. For example, they do gel paints that are essentially pre-dried for drybrushing, and their layer paints are pre-thinned to be more translucent, etc.
Vallejo is also easy to get hold of, and is very good value. Their Game Colour range is very nice, and is a close copy of the older Citadel ranges in terms of the colours they offer. Their Model Colour range is huge and has lots and lots of more "natural" and militaristic colours. My preference from the range is for their inks - I have all the Game Colour inks and find them invaluable.
Army Painter is pretty cheap and they do bundle deals which are even better value. I do see a lot of comments around forums about the consistency of their paints though, so quality control may be a low-risk issue with them.
Coat D'Arms are made by HMG Paints in the UK and are the old first and second generation Citadel paints with a new label. If you liked those, and want a match, these are probably of interest to you.
Foundry paints. Quite popular, these are sold in "triads" which means that when you buy a set you get a base-shade-highlight for a colour. If you're not great at judging colours for shading and highlighting, these can be very helpful.
Reaper paints. Absolutely lovely to work with; they have a super consistency, coverage, totally matte finish, and are available in singles, sets, or triads. Getting them in the UK is tricky though, and you're best off ordering directly from Reaper and taking a hit on Customs charges IMO. My top recommendation from this range is their flesh tones, which are excellent (not too yellow/pink/orange/harsh).
Privateer Press Paints ("P3"). These are also made by HMG paints in the UK, and can be found in a fair number of places now. Decent value, they also thin down to a glaze very well indeed. They do need a good shake every time you use them, and have a satin finish. However, if add a touch of matte medium to the paints, this kills the shine; alternatively, matte varnish at the end does the same. I know the satin sheen annoys some people, but the solutions are so simple I'm not sure why it's even an issue. These are my preference for painting, as it's fairly compact range (something like 72 colours?) that has a good balance of bright and natural colours.
There are even more paints besides (Andrea, Scale 75, etc). I feel that you're better off looking elsewhere for more in-depth reviews if you want to buy some, as they can be tricky to get hold of.
Varnish
Lots of schools of thought here, so I'll just give you my process and reasons!
I game with my models, and even though I'm careful, I want them to not get damaged. Gloss varnish is therefore the only real choice here. However, I don't like the gloss varnish finish, preferring a matte instead.
Therefore, I use a floor-grade UV-resistant non-yellowing water-based polyurethane varnish for protecting the model. A small tin of a decent brand like Ronseal is expensive, but will last forever. I put a little on a palette, add a drop of water to thin it, and apply with a brush all over the model. I will usually do a second coat on any prominent parts likely to catch (pointing swords, swooshing cape edges, etc), and on the base rims.
For the final finish, I use Testor's Dullcote spray. Apply lightly and let it dry fully overnight. Any bits I miss in recesses can be touched up with some thinned-down matte medium applied with a brush.
Brushes
Get a decent sable artist's brush. There are lots of brands to choose from (Raphael, Rosemary, Winsor & Newton, etc) so choose something that you like the look of.
What you're after is a good bristle length, a sharp point, and a nice "snap" to the bristles. A size 1 will most likely be your workhorse size. Don't be seduced by getting teeny-tiny brushes though - the paint dries too fast in the brush to allow you any real control, whereas with a sharp enough point on even a big brush you can paint eyes easily!
If you're going to do any drybrushing, get a flat brush with a stronger bristle. This will last longer and give a better finish. Using your sable for drybrushing is a real no-no!
So, a very long post! Apologies for info-dump, but hopefully you can benefit from all my trial-and-error experiences and make wise choices from the start! :)
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If spraying is an issue for you (it is for me) try the Vallejo brush on undercoat: I use the black and am very pleased with it on both metals and plastic.
There are quite a few brush on varnishes around but I just use the little tins by Revell - couple of coats of gloss then with Matt. When brushing on varnish you need to stroke one way - frantic, manic brushing will create bubbles - and lift any bubbles with the tip of the brush. It's a lot more effort than spraying (but like I said, spraying is not for me).
:)
Yep - me too
I got that from you..... :D
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To care for your files, a small brass wire brush is good for cleaning the teeth of plastic cruft.
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To care for your files, a small brass wire brush is good for cleaning the teeth of plastic cruft.
I do use a small wire brush for cleaning out the metal, but for plastic I just swish them through a bit of acetone from time to time - gets the plastic off much faster and doesn't harm the files! :)
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Well thank you all for your help, especially Major Gilbear for that long list. I've taken all you've said into consideration.
I took the plunge and made a few purchases today....
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And here's a little low-quality pic of what I'm currently working on to practice my brushwork...
(http://i.imgur.com/5FmSTOT.jpg)
Proper photography equipment is next on my shopping list!
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Ok, everything on my shopping list has been ordered, including the miniatures themselves! Very excited to have thing arriving next week.
I followed Fred's advice and ordered some of it from minibits.net, who had a good price on the vallejo paints. I got a call from them the other day telling me they were out of stock on two of the paints, and would I like to replace them with others. So very good, prompt customer service from them, I give them a big thumbs up, and reccomend them to all!!!
I also ordered a lightbox from amazon, which arrived today. So I'll be able to take some proper photos hopefully! I'm not interested in photography, but after reading a few threads here and investigating what my cheap digital camera can do, I think it will work fine.