Lead Adventure Forum
Other Stuff => Workbench => Topic started by: ducat on August 25, 2015, 01:36:02 PM
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Hope this is in the right place.
I have a bit of a problem with the reaper Bones figures, that perhaps some know an answer too.
I have found most of mine are going sticky, especially the ones I have varnished.
I tried the last one unvarnished but even that is now starting to develope a shine so I assume something is sweating out from the plastic underneath.
Mine are undercoated by hand with various different make acryllics by hand.
Varnish is mixed with taimya and vallejo both used on different figures.
I had managed to seal one I thought, but my werewolf, although set for a while but has again come back to sticky again (been painted for over a year).
Any thoughts/cures whatevers on this?
cheers, John.
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Probably it is the result of mixing an agent in the spray primer with the bones material; a chemical process that can't be reversed, your only hope is to try and re-seal the whole surface and then paint over it again. I recommend brush-on primer in this case.
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As I understand, the plastic used in softer vinyl figures has a lot of solvent that remains as part of the material (and is why it is and stays soft).
Nonetheless, small amounts of that solvent do evaporate over time though (more when new - and is often why they "smell" when new), and that's what's reacting as Cherno describes.
Some varnishes are seemingly not/less affected, and you may have to try a few so see what works. Unfortunately though, what you have now is not salvageable I'm afraid.
I've come across the same thing happening with some paints too BTW, although most regular miniatures paints seem to work okay. (But I only mention that as something to keep an eye out for, rather than trying to scaremonger...).
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Personally, I am beginning to hate, truly hate, Bones plastic. Aside from the bendiness, I have yet to have one not come up sticky for whatever reason.
Answers on the reaper forums are along the lines of 'wrong primer' ... Though I have tried several different spray brands, painted on Gesso, and even painting straight acrylics without primer. Inks don't work on them properly, either.
I have one, ONE that was decently painted, sealed, and not sticky. The rest are either sticky, or months after being painted and sealed, the paint begins to flake off, assuming the paint ever stuck to them to begin with.
I really think it's just an issue with the plastic. Who knows the chemicals used in producing those things, considering the sheer volume they had to pump out for the kickstarters. Personally, I'm done with painting any of them, I think.
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Thanks for the replys chaps. It seems I am not alone in my quandary then.
I apply all my undercoat and varnish by brush so no sprays have been used on mine at any time so I can rule out chemicals from sprays.
I under coated in various acrylics - 1 was Privateer press black, 1 is GW black, 1 was a taimya black and two are GW brown.
paint is then a mix of GW/PP and vellejo.
Varnish was either Vellejo or Taimya.
I only bought and painted one of the figures "new" which was the werewolf. The others are from a trade i did last year and have been sat open in a box for a while.
They have all gone sticky except the last I painted which I put no varnish on. Looking at it, this has developed a sheen though as though the figure is "sweating".
I find it weird as my friend has also painted a few of these, using a GW spray for undercoat, and his have been fine, but he put no varnish on his which led to me not Varnishing the last to see if it made a difference.
I thought my werewolf had sorted itself out, with several coats of varnish finally leaving it dry to the touch, but after about 6 months the stickiness has returned.
OH well I guess by the sounds of it, cheapness shows, and I shall have to stick to metals and other company's plastic stuff, as bones are sadly not working for me :(
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I've heard that there can be some differences in batches of plastics. Some members have even noticed differences in their own collections.
That said, reducing chemicals from sprays is a major factor. The fact you brush undercoat is a huge help (I've undercoated spray GW on some of mine ok) but Windsor Newton Matt varnish stickies the crud out of my WotC bendy plastics.
My experience would be don't varnish, (check it's acrylic based not enamel with solvents) perhaps let the figures breath for even longer?
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For a really quick RPG project, I had to create a dinosaur with a howdah on its back (don't ask... :D ), so I got myself a cheap €1,- Whateverosaurus (like a Stegadon, but without the plates on its back), built the howdah from wood and stained with a wash (worked really well), and then, to speed up the process, spray painted the dino.
And because it was made of a rubbery, bendy plastic, the material somehow reacted with the spraypaint, and the result is one tacky (granted: in more ways than one lol ) dinosaur.
I resprayed it with a varnish, hoping that would somehow encapsulate the stickyness, but to no avail. The sticky effect rose right through several coats of varnish as well.
Even about 6 months after the fact, the dino is still tacky...
Odd thing is, I did a Carnosaur at the same time as well, also a €1,- thingy. But that was made of a much more rigid plastic and that dried up perfectly!
So my conclusion is that it probably is a combination of the type of plastic and the propellant of the spraycan that causes the tackyness...
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I thik that you are better not using varnish on Bones or other "smelly & flexible" plastics.
I don't think it is necessary and I know from experience that spray varnish goes sticky as it is incompatible with the solvents in the plastic.
I also had the same problem with scenic items made with Fimo.
I made sandbag emplacements and they went sticky when varnished.
The solution was to repaint them on top of the sticky and then no further problem.
(Sandbags are easy to repaint)
Mick
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Nonetheless, small amounts of that solvent do evaporate over time though (more when new - and is often why they "smell" when new), and that's what's reacting as Cherno describes.
Answers on the reaper forums are along the lines of 'wrong primer' ... Though I have tried several different spray brands, painted on Gesso, and even painting straight acrylics without primer. Inks don't work on them properly, either.
No, no, I have to clarify :)
The problem lies with the propellant used in spray cans (primer, varnish, doesn't matter); It reacts with the plastic of the miniature, basically "attacking" it's surface and making it sticky. All spray cans use propellant so they all will lead to stickiness. The only thing one can do is use brush-on primer instead, because it obviously doesn't need propellant.
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My 2 cents
I've also had 'stickyness' of 'glossiness' develop on platic miniatures, not on Reaper Bones but the Mansions of Madness miniatures (FFG), the D&D miniatures from the boardgames (Wrath of Ashardalon e.o.) and plastic dinosaurs
In my experience it's not the primer, cause I've used brush on Gesso or airbrush primer on these (not spraycan or other organic solvent-based primers). It only develops after the varnish is applied (brush On W&N matt-, no matter how long I wait before varnishing. It develops after a while, at first I have a dead matt finish that becomes glossy and after that sticky.
My working theory is that it's the plasticizer (probably some sort of pthalate) that's used in the miniatures that slowly evaporates through the primer and acrylic paint, but interacts with the varnish.
At the moment I'm experimenting with removing the varnish with white-spirit (so far I've done this on just one miniature, but succeeded in removing the sticky layer without also removing the paint job) I intend to test different kinds of varnish to (hopefully) find one that doesn't react (both spray can as well as different types of brush on matt varnish).
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I wouldn't have thought that even with brush-on primer and layers of acrylic paint, it still gets sticky if spray primer is applied afterwards. Good to know... I guess the only way to be safe is to not use any sprays at all.
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If you dip the plastic figures in a thin pva glue mix after painting you will stop the sticky problem. Also makes a dead matte finish.
You will need to practice the mix consistecy depending on the brand of glue.
l had to do this with a batch of HaT 1/72 soft plastic figures which are notourious for going sticky.
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If you dip the plastic figures in a thin pva glue mix after painting you will stop the sticky problem.
This, I've heard that too on a number of forums but haven't tried it.
I managed to remove the varnish sticky by scrubbing in an extended (and carefully monitored) detol bath. (Or simple green)
So perhaps two ways forward to recover the sticky figures.
Cheers
Matt
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Interestingly, I was contemplating doing the PVA glue thing just last night. But I was thinking of brushing on a diluted coat on the figure before painting, to seal the chemicals in, under the paint.
I figured that would have the added effect of being somewhat protected from chipping and scratching by the layers of paint on top, plus the varnish on top of that.
All theory, obviously, as I'm still to paint my first bones miniature, but reading all of the above has made me somewhat anxious about painting them. Or more precise; the sweaty, sticky aftermath... ::)
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A pva dip has been a well practiced panacea for the ills of plastic miniatures for decades......generally in an attempt to get the paint to stay on!
The downside to using it to "prime" the figure is the resulting loss of depth and sharpness to the detail. Bones figures already suffer from a lack of that.
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So in conclusion, NO sprays at all, and use brush-on alternatives for priming and sealing?
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So in conclusion, NO sprays at all, and use brush-on alternatives for priming and sealing?
Looks like it... I still have to try this myself though.
I did notice that some Bones stalagmites I have painted then washed with a mix of Future floor finish and acrylic paint weren't sticky at all... at least until I decide to spray mat varnish on them, at which point they became as sticky as all my other Bones figures except the two I have varnished using brush-on mat varnish.
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I had stickyness as well with some Bones figures. I'm pretty sure it was the Tamiya spray varnish which did it. I have used the Vallejo brush on varnish with some Bones figures without problems.
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I'm really glad I saw this thread as I've recently bought a few of the larger Bones figures that were suitable for superhero gaming and I was just about to spray undercoat them black. I would have used a GW spray varnish too. Thanks!
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I'm really glad I saw this thread as I've recently bought a few of the larger Bones figures that were suitable for superhero gaming and I was just about to spray undercoat them black. I would have used a GW spray varnish too. Thanks!
I'm in the same boat Elk, I just bought a boatload for Frostgrave and it would have been a ton of work to fix it. :o
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I'm in the same boat Elk, I just bought a boatload for Frostgrave and it would have been a ton of work to fix it. :o
3rd!! ::)
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The benefits of LAF membership once more proves its worth!