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Miniatures Adventure => Pikes, Muskets and Flouncy Shirts => Topic started by: Cadet13 on 29 August 2015, 04:41:51 AM

Title: Cadet13's Early Dutch War of Independence Project: 1566-1609
Post by: Cadet13 on 29 August 2015, 04:41:51 AM
Hello folks,

Well, I've found myself in a bit of a pickle, and I was hoping someone might be gracious enough to help out a complete n00b when it comes to the Thirty Years War, and Pike & Shot gaming in general. Today I received a rather large package in the mail containing these:

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd442/Wargamer_Cadet13/100_1385_zpsssk52mk3.jpg) (http://s1220.photobucket.com/user/Wargamer_Cadet13/media/100_1385_zpsssk52mk3.jpg.html)


Basically, my tentative plan was to set up all of the figures required for a complete "regiment" of approximately 16 minis on a single, rather large base (the Litko base above is 150x100mm). Based on what little I know of the TYW period, there was a block of pikes flanked on both sides by musketmen, and I have the figures for 12 men in the pike block and 4 muskets, plus a mounted commander.

Here are the questions: 1.) is this a somewhat historical setup, taking into account that the small number of figs in my "regiment" is merely representative? 2.) Would regiments like this have mounted commanders? if so, where would they fit in the formation? 3.) are there any rulesets out there that make use of whole units based together in a single stand? 4.) because I have a weird mix of figures, what possibilities for "nationalities"/allegiances are possible? And what colors would those factions be?

I reall don't know very much at all about the TYW, other than what little can be gleaned from reading the Eric Flint 1632 series.  ::) I got all of these figures on sale... I'm normally a Napoleonic gamer, but when I saw the figures at cheap prices I figured, "why not?" I guess I was looking for something a little bit different from painting lots of uniform lace.  ;D

Any help/and or general advice on the period would be helpful as well. Thanks!
-Chuck
Title: Re: Cadet13's TYW Side Project: Jumping off at the deep end
Post by: nelsons-signal on 29 August 2015, 10:09:27 AM
Hello Chuck,

a very good choice to play TYW. :D

To your questions and some more...
The selected miniatures – Hell Dorado Arquebusers – and Swiss Command - do not fit -  they are  not contemporary for TYW. :-[
The selected scale of 12 pikes to 4 Musketeers (3 / 1) do not fit – the scale was  1 / 2 – with 12 Pikes you will need 24 Musketeers. (Later in the war there was a larger displacement – up to “regiments” without Pikes.
A   1 / 2  scales regiment you can see on my topic  http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=58871.0

To insert mounted officers is  always a good looking solution.
Of course there where mounted officers around the “regiments” – probably not in the first Line – but certainly around.  … we always have design options.

Before you can choose flags you have to make a choice which period of the TYW you want to play.
The early phase – up to the Danish war, the middle Phase or the Swedish war, or the Endphase with French participation

Regards
Achim
Title: Re: Cadet13's TYW Side Project: Jumping off at the deep end
Post by: Cadet13 on 30 August 2015, 11:29:08 PM
Thanks for the info Achim!  :D

Hmm...this puts me in a further conundrum.  :?

I would still like to use all of my figures. I did a bit of Wikipedia research, and if I increase my numbers of arquebusiers and muskets to a 1:2 ratio with my pikes (i.e. 6 muskets, 12 pikes), could these figures work perhaps, for the early stages of the Eighty Years War (Dutch War of Independence)? This started in 1568, or would I still be off the mark?
Title: Re: Cadet13's TYW Side Project: Jumping off at the deep end
Post by: julesav on 31 August 2015, 10:18:51 AM
Your choice of figures looks more suited to the 'Italian Wars' era to me, with the exception of the master gunner set.
Title: Cadet13's Early Dutch War of Independence Project: 1566-1609
Post by: Cadet13 on 01 September 2015, 07:20:26 AM
Okay, a bit more research has yielded some info that may help me out of the jam I've placed myself in, maybe...

So, it seems that when William the Silent (who would found the House of Orange-Nassau, and basically an independent Netherlands) first cast his lot in with the rebels against the Habsburgs, his armies and tactics were heavily influenced on the military training he had received in the service of the Habsburg Netherlands, which centered on the use of Landsknecht mercenary armies. These units were beginning to wane as a viable military force at this point in time, but were used by William nonetheless when he invaded the Netherlands in 1568; these troops were promptly trounced by Spanish troops of the Duke of Alba, which in turn marked a shift for the Dutch away from the use of Landsknecht military units in armies and towards formations organized in French style.

So what will this mean for me? Well, first of all a shift from the TYW to the early stages of the Eighty Years War (Dutch War of Independence), where my gaily attired troops shall form one of the last, ill-fated Landsknecht regiments in the service of William the Silent (then the Prince of Orange). This will rectify both the uniforms and the pike to shot ratio that I have with my current figs.

Thanks for the help so far gents. So now... has anyone else done the Eighty Years War before?
Title: Re: Cadet13's Early Dutch War of Independence Project: 1566-1609
Post by: julesav on 01 September 2015, 10:49:31 AM
Nice project recovery mate, I'm impressed!

Many years ago (back when Wargames Research Group Renaissance rules were popular at a club I attended) A chap fielded 'Dutch' but from abot the last ten years of the 'rebellion', I seem to recall that they were very nasty! Your early era chaps should be prettier but remember the 'dour Protestant' look would infect all your Dutch chaps!

Good luck with the project, keep posting pics of progress if you can!
Title: Re: Cadet13's Early Dutch War of Independence Project: 1566-1609
Post by: Cadet13 on 05 September 2015, 05:06:37 AM
Quote from: julesav on 01 September 2015, 10:49:31 AM
Good luck with the project, keep posting pics of progress if you can!

Thanks! :)

So a small update for y'all, I managed to finish up the first couple of "Dutch" Landsknecht figures:

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd442/Wargamer_Cadet13/100_1395_zpsc7e4aeyc.jpg)

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd442/Wargamer_Cadet13/100_1396_zpsk36dhecd.jpg)

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd442/Wargamer_Cadet13/100_1392_zps3uvllo9n.jpg)

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd442/Wargamer_Cadet13/100_1391_zps7qwsmwm7.jpg)

And here they are looking lonely on their base:

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd442/Wargamer_Cadet13/100_1397_zpsv4ywdmqa.jpg)
"Hauptmann Steiner! Where is the rest of the company?!"
"Patience, Dieter, patience..."

With the long weekend I have for Labor Day I should be able to get several more figs done soon. I was also able to further focus the scope of my little project, at least for the immediate future, and its eventual aims; that is, to paint up the opposing forces for the 1568 Battle of Heiligerlee (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Heiligerlee_(1568) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Heiligerlee_(1568))), a small battle, but the first Dutch victory of the Eighty Years War. While the Wikipedia article isn't specific, the overall numbers would suggest a unit breakdown as follows:

Dutch Rebels

Spanish

That makes two relatively even, historical forces. I'll keep updating as I get stuff done. :)

-Chuck
Title: Re: Cadet13's Early Dutch War of Independence Project: 1566-1609
Post by: Cadet13 on 08 September 2015, 04:44:20 AM
Ok, so I got a couple more figs painted. I'm afraid I'm rather slow, but since this is as much a painting project as it is a wargaming project that's ok. :)

First off, a flagbearer. The banner is hand painted on a piece of printer paper, as the first picture shows. It is based off of a description of Louis of Nassau's rebel flags he first used when starting his invasion of Friesland, found on page 61 in L. L. Doeden's Exercise of Arms: Warfare in the Netherlands, 1568-1648:

Quote
At Leer they unrolled their white banners with the red cross of Troyes and the legends Nunc aut nunquam and Recuperare aut mori (now or never, recapture or die).

My Google-fu was weak when it came to finding a "red cross of Troyes," so I used a generic Latin cross.

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd442/Wargamer_Cadet13/100_1398_zpsbchuibqe.jpg)

And here's the flagbearer:

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd442/Wargamer_Cadet13/100_1399_zpspbhemiz2.jpg)

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd442/Wargamer_Cadet13/100_1400_zps3lfdbe54.jpg)

And a generic pikeman:

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd442/Wargamer_Cadet13/100_1401_zps2qmuse2k.jpg)

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd442/Wargamer_Cadet13/100_1402_zpsgikldink.jpg)

The pikes are made from broom bristles cut to size. I think they look the part, and have the added bonus of being naturally flexible: good for transporting!

Finally here's the whole group as it stands now:

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd442/Wargamer_Cadet13/100_1403_zpsoh7vf2vx.jpg)

"Rally 'round the banner, lads!"
 
Thanks for looking!  :)

-Chuck
Title: Re: Cadet13's Early Dutch War of Independence Project: 1566-1609
Post by: LordOdo on 09 September 2015, 01:10:56 AM
Ooh great start!  Im always interested in projects featuring my country,  so I'll follow this closely! 
Title: Re: Cadet13's Early Dutch War of Independence Project: 1566-1609
Post by: Dalauppror on 09 September 2015, 11:20:04 AM
Greate start indeed ! It will be very impressive when all based up.

I would go over each of the minis with Army painter Strong Tone Ink, and then a high light with the colour you used, this to get more life in to the paint and minis as they feel a bit flat at the moment, at least to me. I might also consider not to paint eyes, at leas I are not god enought painter so my minis with eyes always end up as Marty Feldman.

Looking forward to see more.

best regards Michael
Title: Re: Cadet13's Early Dutch War of Independence Project: 1566-1609
Post by: Cadet13 on 16 September 2015, 05:36:11 AM
Thanks for the suggestions guys :)

So, nothing new painted, but some new figures for the project arrived in the mail today; these will probably be the last figs I buy for at least a little while, until I can get the figs I've already bought painted.  ::)

(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd442/Wargamer_Cadet13/100_1406_zpswvkamwgx.jpg)


My Count Tilly figure will be used to represent the Duke of Aremberg, Johan de Ligne, Stadtholder of Friesland, while my Marksman figure will join a regiment much more visually consistent with dour Protestants than my Landsknechts.  :D
Title: Re: Cadet13's Early Dutch War of Independence Project: 1566-1609
Post by: Baron von Nickedoften on 16 September 2015, 10:56:58 AM
A small point, but all non-cavalry flagpoles were very short in this era - only a couple of feet longer than the flag itself - and were usually weighted at the butt end; they weren't carried on pikestaffs.  This is because the flags were "flourished" in the face of the enemy and on other special occasions, and the pole length and the weighted end facilitated this:-

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/xf-thro.html

For some reason, this is a common error among wargamers, many of whom seem determined - despite all pictorial evidence to the contrary - to depict their flags being waved casually at a ridiculous height in what appears to be a force ten gale. 

Hope that helps.
Title: Re: Cadet13's Early Dutch War of Independence Project: 1566-1609
Post by: Cadet13 on 17 September 2015, 01:42:55 AM
Thanks for the info Baron! I didn't know that about the flags; again, I'm a total newbie when it comes to Pike and Shotte.  lol

I don't think that I'm going to change this flag (because it's done), but I'll keep your info in mind when I do my other units.