Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Frostgrave => Topic started by: Chris Abbey on 09 September 2015, 10:23:06 AM
-
I've played 4 games of Frostgrave now and really like the game. One of the things that we noticed was that the combat system can be very brutal, and a little arbitary. I can live with this, sometimes someone is going to get lucky and the first blow is going to be a killer blow, however when I demonstrated it down at our local club on Monday two of the four wizards went down to first strike and the guys felt they would want a house rule change to play again.
So... if (for example) you used an elemental spell for +8 shooting attack you rolled 11 + 8 for 19 and your opponent rolled 18 for defence you have just about managed to hit opponent. If they have armour 10 that will do 9 points of damage so for a starting character almost dead (which is OK). If however you rolled 19 + 8 for 27 and your opponent rolled 20 for defence you have caused 27-10 = 17 points of damage and opponent is very dead. (which is OK if it happens very infrequently). Last Monday it happened a lot, not just from spells but from melee as well. I think all but one of us lost wizard, apprentice and 50% of followers.
I was wondering if either of these tweaks would help.
1. Roll to hit / defend to see who has won fight / if shooting was succesful, then roll again for damage. The thought here was that with two rolls it would even out big rolls.
2. Roll to hit / defend. The result shows how convincingly you have beaten your opponent. i.e if I roll 20 but opponent rolls 19 I have only just got the upper hand. If I roll 12 and my opponent has rolled 2, I have significantly beaten him. The difference could be the amount of damage dealt. You would then need to work out how much was absorbed by armour. This would need current armour values to be reduced (halved?) to work.
I'm realy interested to hear your thoughts and experiances before we start tinkering...
-
You could just remove the modifier when working out damage?
So in your example above if you roll a 19+8 and your opponent get a 20 for defence, you've obviously hit them. Remove the +8 to work out the damage, so 19 - 10 equals 9 points of damage. A decent clout, but not killed outright. You'll probably end up with quite a few hits not actually penetrating armour so figures will tend to hang around longer.
-
You know what, I've yet to play the game (still painting and building!).
But I have heard this complaint quite a few times, and it's starting to sour my attitude to the game and blunt my enthusiasm to keep on painting.
Anyway.
What about dropping the dice from a D20 to a D12?
I've als have to play the game. The fact that combat can be very brutal and random, has been my impression from the start. I think the choice for D20 and 'one roll' is the cause of this feeling.
I also think this is the heart and intent of the Frostgrave system. Tinkering with it will probably alter it to something resembling Mordheim. I'll give it a go 'as is' to see how it works oit for me.
If it isn't for me, I'd rather use the miniatures with another system than to try to 'fix' the perceived problems with it.
-
fwiw, I've played a few games and don't have a problem with the system, even though I approached it with some trepidation (because of the d20).
Perhaps it might be that some players need to change their expectations of what the game is about. It's not really about the wizard wading into combat and slaying knights and giants, istm, it's more about replaceable foot-soldiers doing the dirty work and putting themselves in the firing line, while protecting their wizard. It's also, istm, not necessarily about going into a no-holds-barred fight to the death, and more about going in, getting the treasure, and trying to get out again, with the minimum of fuss.
Honestly, I'd be wary of changing things to accommodate people who don't necessarily have too much experience with the game.
-
Thanks for your comments. Their is a lot about the system that I realy like, so I will try them all out to try to find a soloution as I think the campaign system is really good. If you have a look at the experiance system, the real bonus is attempting to kill other wizards. Killing a wizard gives you 150xp compared to 50xp per treasure counter, so I think a lot of players are going to try to take out the opposition. Not adding the bonus, or using the difference in rolls could be the way to go.
-
Personally I think this factor is a positive for Frostgrave its one of the things that gives a lower level wizard a chance against a higher level opponent. Even High level opponents can die quickly meaning players have to be careful and cautious and carefully asses the risks of any move.
-
There is a flip side to this.
Any winning combat roll that is lower than the opponents armour has absolutely no effect.
Although this can add to the frustration if you win by one and do no damage due to low rolls then lose by one and get taken out due to high rolls.
I think its something that needs getting used to.
-
After reading Tales of the Frozen City, a collection of 11 short stories set in Frostgrave and published by ospray, I really feel that the rules are intended to be lethal. Soldiers and wizards are human and fragile and many who enter the city never return. Your goal should be to get in, grab treasure, get out and if you have the opportunity to take out a rival wizard then do so. Soldiers are meant to be expendable which is why they don't lvl up.
-
I really like the combat system. Would be good to see it rolled out for a sci-fi set of rules.
-
There is a post on here about using it for Star Wars that looked promising
-
4 games in and you're rewriting the rules?
Tell them not to stand in the open flinging fireballs or charging headlong into combat without backup. Cover, magic defense spells, and sacrificial soldiers for the win!
Also, what happens down the road when you have Wizards with multiple magic items, health upgraded, and more powerful monsters to contend with? I'd playtest that scenario first.
I love the system as written and the speed with which you can play a game, or several per night.
I love that Felstad is as dangerous as being a redshirt on an away mission.
All that said, I really hope you can develop a variant you can love too, as that is clearly Joe's mission statement with this game.
-
I like the fact that combat can be quick and vicious. one of the things that I haven't liked about some of the fantasy games that we have played is the fact that models just stand there and hit each other back-and-forth like Rock'm sock'm robots. so I kind a like the fact that we can have a combat that ended very quickly or if you go in very carelessly you can just be absolutely smashed.
-
I still think the biggest thing missing (as in the Bad.Karma house rules) is that there's no neccessity to get the treasure off quickly, the player is rewarded to much for attempting to wipe-out the opposing war band. We're using a slightly different time limit on games, so most finish after 5 turns, but a few go to 6 and some might go to 7. This means getting the treasure off is a high priority.
Quick and dirty combat works for this, but allows non-combat wizards a chace to win games (especially if they have movement spells).
-
I've played some games and I didn't find the D20 to be a problem. It can get hairy when someone rolls 19 or 20 with a shoot spell, but that's why you have to protect your wizard by making sure no one has LOS to him/her. Sometimes I like to wade my Enchanter into combat or in the open, but I always know the risk I'm taking in doing so.
-
After reading Tales of the Frozen City, a collection of 11 short stories set in Frostgrave and published by ospray, I really feel that the rules are intended to be lethal. Soldiers and wizards are human and fragile and many who enter the city never return. Your goal should be to get in, grab treasure, get out and if you have the opportunity to take out a rival wizard then do so. Soldiers are meant to be expendable which is why they don't lvl up.
^^What He Said^^ ;)
Its a good "leveler" I've seen an experienced Wizard go down to a critical hit (my Son-In-Laws ruddy Enchanter LoL) - plus, don't forget - as "Injuries" are worked out in the post game sequence, taken out during play doesn't necessarily mean dead :D
-
So, we have been playing quite a lot and enjoying Frostgrave a great deal. Yes, it is a swingy, chaotic, killy, nostalgic d20 kind of game. But in the context of the campaign, it's all part of the fun and it's good to know that even "powerful" characters are vulnerable to a lowly archer or thug.
We did change some stuff, very quickly adopting the well reasoned 'Bad Karma' campaign mods, which help keep everyone focused on recovering the treasure.
I wouldn't change the combat mechanics one bit. They are simple yet clever. I've played games that were more complex and delivered less.
-
I still think the biggest thing missing (as in the Bad.Karma house rules) is that there's no neccessity to get the treasure off quickly, the player is rewarded to much for attempting to wipe-out the opposing war band. We're using a slightly different time limit on games, so most finish after 5 turns, but a few go to 6 and some might go to 7. This means getting the treasure off is a high priority.
Quick and dirty combat works for this, but allows non-combat wizards a chace to win games (especially if they have movement spells).
This for me was the thing I wanted changed from the day I read the rules. We don't approach it with a turn limit at the moment; in fact we discussed a house rule that distributes the remaining treasures amongst all players of that game. That way even constantly unlucky players get something to work with and you're punished for being tardy by having to share. I am sure that's not a perfect system either though... and the more I think of it, the more I see ways it could be exploited.
To the topic at hand... I like the lethality of the combat system. First off I know that my minis might not be dead and the game doesn't take for ever. I was talking about this to another wargamer... we were both not really sure if other systems like Mordheim are actually less lethal.
-
This for me was the thing I wanted changed from the day I read the rules. We don't approach it with a turn limit at the moment; in fact we discussed a house rule that distributes the remaining treasures amongst all players of that game. That way even constantly unlucky players get something to work with and you're punished for being tardy by having to share. I am sure that's not a perfect system either though... and the more I think of it, the more I see ways it could be exploited.
To the topic at hand... I like the lethality of the combat system. First off I know that my minis might not be dead and the game doesn't take for ever. I was talking about this to another wargamer... we were both not really sure if other systems like Mordheim are actually less lethal.
In the many games our Group has played, its become obvious a Turn Limit would reward the more "zappy" wizards anyway
-
I have re-wrote the combat system (and a few other things) combining the best of Frostgrave with the best of two of my favorite other skirmish mini games (Mordheim and Heroscape) while tightening up a few rules. All IMO of course. Not sure anyone is interested, but PM me if you want a copy.
-
I play in Mr Peabody's groups and as he writes, we have adopted several changes from Calmdown's threads, such as limiting games to 5-6 turns, allowing warbands to gain treasure by simply possessing it as the game ends (although exiting is much safer), and gaining 20 experience for any spell cast but NOT gaining exp for killing with spells (to prevent Attacker-type casters from having an advantage).
As well, if any treasures are left unclaimed at game end, all players share 25 exp for each.
I've played at least 8 games with this system and found the result is a huge focus on gathering treasure and casting spells to gain experience while opting for attacks/kills only when it makes tactical sense - generally to deprive another warband of treasure. Additionally, many games start with wandering demons in the area, so the beasties often draw most of the attacks in the opening turns.
So unlike the OP, I find games are somewhat less bloody than I'm used to, with Casters using spells such as Leap or Telekinesis to get as much treasure and experience as possible. Watching players use create spell combos in pursuit of experience rather than simply battling for kills is another great selling point of Frostgrave for me.
And finally, let's recall that in the Campaign system, most of those characters you thought were dead during the game generally return after rolling on the Wound table after the game.