Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Future Wars => Topic started by: tnjrp on 14 September 2015, 06:56:38 AM
-
The next big sciffy gaming thing a-coming, one assumes...
http://manticblog.com/2015/09/11/warpath-kickstarter-launches-21st-september/
The dropship looks promising. Not sure if there'll be anything else I might pledge for there and am not even 100% sure about that. Depends on the size and the price, predictably enough...
-
I'd be interested in this, what with the improvements in design and the slightly less cartoony look Mantic took with their sci-fi lines. Depends what turns up in the kickstarter, and how strident those complaints about previous Mantic KSs get.
-
Hmm.
I have somewhat mixed feelings about this:
1) I like the Warpath universe Mantic have created
2) I like the factions that populate the Warpath universe
3) If you back the KS, you will get a *lot* of stuff at a reasonable price (I won't say "bargain" because the size, detail, and quality of a lot of the models has left many people feeling burned).
4) The rules for Mantic's games are usually fairly good and fairly simple, but are very "GW" in how they are written and set out in books. However, I prefer a "PP/Wyrd" style of rules writing which is much clearer and creates far fewer rules anomalies.
5) I think that there will be quite a lot of hard styrene sprues offered through this KS. That's a good thing, but the Enforcers, Forge Fathers, and Veermyn have already received a good base of sprues. I wonder if they will still focus on these factions or try and get the Plague, Marauders, Rebs, Asterians, and Corporation "up to speed". I know the WP KS is intended to wedge plastic vehicles into the game, whatever else may be planned.
6) I would like a nice sci-fi game that I can get pick-up games with, and which is about the size and scale of 40k2E. Mass-battle games like current 40k7E which require a suitcase on wheels to cart your figures to a game in do not interest me at all. The big-model-count 28mm games require too much stuff, too big a playing area, take too long to paint and set up, and are too long to play (unless the rules are super simple, in which case they probably won't hold my interest for very long).
7) I am keenly aware that I whilst I like some variation in my units (number of models, a few upgrades for special weapon/leader types), I prefer units to be discrete entries with their own skills and abilities - variation comes from having different types of units rather than a thousand options for each squad type. I personally feel that this also helps to avoid people from ending up with units that become "illegal" choices in the future, and allows a lot of individual unit modelling customisation without affecting the rules. Unfortunately, I suspect that for Warpath, there will be lots of unit army list options because that way a few unit sprues can go a lot further in terms of variety, and that will suit Mantic better.
8 ) I would like the Warpath game to be presented in a series of themed starter boxes - Asterians vs Plague, Corporation vs Veermyn, Enforcers vs Rebs. This way, players have some variety in how they get into the game, and each starter allows Mantic to focus on the factions they represent. Having a narrative event that adds to the background and introduces the factions to players via narrative scenarios is also a great way to launch the game. Most companies just do one starter set for a game, and I always felt this was a wasted sales opportunity if players didn't happen to fancy any of the factions they contain. Obviously, individual factions would be available outside the starters too, and be released as the starters roll out.
9) I would like Mantic to concentrate on making the plastics as high-quality as they can - the Enforcer plastics were good, but a lot of details were too small, too fine and therefore came out too soft, and a lot of things were just the wrong size (the rifle grenades, which are underslung on their rifle barrels, are a totally different size to the loose grenades on the sprue...) or just pointless (like the officer's insignia which is separate on the sprue).
Likewise, I would like to see the sprues properly populated with the proper unit options and not just a random selection of parts - if a unit can have a flamer and a grenade launcher, I want both in the kit, and not just the flamer in the kit and then leave grenade launcher as a metal/PVC add-on.
Ideally therefore, the options for a unit would be in the box to swap in and out too - so if I can have a six-model Enforcer Pathfinder unit, and it has four different upgrade options available (unit leader to officer, one squad member can have one of two special weapon upgrades, one squad member to engineering specialist for example), then I'd like ten models in the box so that I can build the unit with its options and choose what models are in the unit from game to game.
10) Scope should focus on interesting missions for 20-40 models each. I am not interested in pitched battles, nor am I very interested in the Deadzone-style missions that don't really suit each faction or vary much. I think the poorly thought out missions, and the narrow combat mechanics really hurt Deadzone's potential, and I wouldn't want to see Warpath go down that route.
11) I would like some tactical options in the game that properly reflect the sci-fi environment. Sadly, these were lacking in Deadzone, but I hope that they can be included in Warpath - things like satellite / orbital ship support (intel, area scans for enemy detection and fire coordination, etc), hacking/security/tech disruption and or/engineering, and perhaps different styles of command and control for the factions (with advantages and disadvantages) for each. These in turn lend themselves naturally to the sorts of missions that might interest different factions.
12) Price. In a KS, or if you buy a suitcase-load, Mantic models are reasonably cheap. However, if you just want to buy a unit box or two afterwards they are surprisingly expensive (which usually puts me off buying any). I hope that post-KS, Mantic set the prices at something more reasonable for individual boxes as that will encourage people to grow their armies and play games (rather than be put off by the unit prices, or buying a ton of stuff and abandoning the game as they are overwhelmed with a tide of models all at once). This is important for the game to grow beyond those that backed the KS.
13) Design. I would like Mantic to reveal more concepts and more renders during the KS than they usually do. This would require a bit more up-front work for them, but will allow proper opportunity for people to assess what's being offered and for Mantic to consider feedback. They have listened during the DZ2 campaign to people's comments about the robot dog unit and the cartoony-ness of the Veermyn, and whilst I think they could have pushed the concepts further, I am very much happier with the revised designs. I hope that they listen similarly to the designs of the Marauders (which I don't mind as not-Orcs, but I dislike the alligator-snouts, the hunchback and bow legs, and the giant fists - these could all be fixed to give a far better-looking model whilst still being savage and Orc-y).
14) Rules. Beyond my comments in (4), I would like to see robust mechanics with reasonable scope for variation using dice that roll nicely (D12s, D20s, or D20s numbered as D10s twice). The special abilities and rules can then focus on adding features to units in the game, rather than patching the core game mechanics to allow them into the game at all. I don't want to be rolling three dice per model with additional dice as modifiers - that just gets silly and rewards the player who rolls the most dice. However, opposed dice rolling with modifiers to results and perhaps critical scores (maybe only for certain weapons) would be quick and engaging for both players. I'd therefore expect to see a fairly worked-up preview of the rules to get a proper feel of how the game plays and decide whether I like it or not.
Anyway, I've rambled enough now! :P
-
Mixed feelings about it for me as well.
I'm waaaay over mass battle games and have been strictly skirmish level for years, so the Warpath ruleset isn't terribly appealing to me. If there's a way to pick up select things, better than what the online discounters will eventually charge, I'll be interested. A sprue of this and a sprue of that would be what I'd want. Sadly, if this campaign follows the usual Mantic playbook, you'll have to go in for a big bundle to make it worthwhile.
On the other hand, I still have funds wrapped up in other Mantic projects (Dungeon Saga and Deadzone 2). The constant churn of overlapping kickstarters from Mantic is wearing me out.
-
The constant churn of overlapping kickstarters from Mantic is wearing me out.
Yeah, I agree.
Not to get into a debate about whether KS is "supposed to be for" companies like Mantic, but I find myself wishing hard that Mantic's business plan revolved around more than endless KS. I mean, when (if?) they ever get a good set of plastic models for a core of games, what then?
And again, unless you buy a massive number of models, their kits never seem to be as cheap as people like to go around proclaiming. Thus, to me, it feels difficult to build a Mantic army unless you join in one of their KS or buy a giant all-in-one box.
I like a lot of things about Mantic, I really do, but they do seem to have a particular knack for missing the mark / making poor decisions about their products which I've never understood.
-
I'll be in for both rule books (though the main interest is the mass battles) and then get a good few vehicles for the Enforcers and Forge Fathers with a few for the Veer-Myn. Is this KS a little too soon, quite possibly, I had hoped it would be in Q1 of next year in order to get some funds together but I'll just have to pledge what I can and expand upon it in the pledge manager.
-
6) I would like a nice sci-fi game that I can get pick-up games with, and which is about the size and scale of 40k2E. Mass-battle games like current 40k7E which require a suitcase on wheels to cart your figures to a game in do not interest me at all. The big-model-count 28mm games require too much stuff, too big a playing area, take too long to paint and set up, and are too long to play (unless the rules are super simple, in which case they probably won't hold my interest for very long).
7) I am keenly aware that I whilst I like some variation in my units (number of models, a few upgrades for special weapon/leader types), I prefer units to be discrete entries with their own skills and abilities - variation comes from having different types of units rather than a thousand options for each squad type. I personally feel that this also helps to avoid people from ending up with units that become "illegal" choices in the future, and allows a lot of individual unit modelling customisation without affecting the rules. Unfortunately, I suspect that for Warpath, there will be lots of unit army list options because that way a few unit sprues can go a lot further in terms of variety, and that will suit Mantic better.
10) Scope should focus on interesting missions for 20-40 models each. I am not interested in pitched battles, nor am I very interested in the Deadzone-style missions that don't really suit each faction or vary much. I think the poorly thought out missions, and the narrow combat mechanics really hurt Deadzone's potential, and I wouldn't want to see Warpath go down that route.
These - yup. There's definitely a space in the market for a lean SF game that plays with 4-8 fireteams of basic troops and specials, a couple of characters and a couple of vehicles.
Warzone Resurrection is the right scale, but put me off with all the special rules for individual troops, army special rules and special tactics. I... just... want... to... roll... some... frigging... dice!
Tomorrow's War... I have flashbacks to the endless reactions and trying to remember whose turn it was...
Gates of Antares - could be worth a look and at least looks science-fictional with drones and unit shields and the like.
I can't find a link, but wasn't the Warpath Kickstarter going to do rules for two different sizes of game?
I like a lot of things about Mantic, I really do, but they do seem to have a particular knack for missing the mark / making poor decisions about their products which I've never understood.
Sad but very true :(
-
Gates of Antares - could be worth a look and at least looks science-fictional with drones and unit shields and the like.
I can't speak regarding the other games, but the rules for BtGoA are... Not very sci-fi actually.
In fact, it feels like a weird cross between 40k2E and Epic40k - you'd think that would actually appeal greatly to me as I like both of those games, but instead all I keep seeing are missed opportunities to build something new and cool. :?
I can't find a link, but wasn't the Warpath Kickstarter going to do rules for two different sizes of game?
See, that's exactly the sort of thing I mean about Mantic making poor decisions!
With Deadzone, trying to make it both a pick-up skirmish and a campaign game meant that neither worked very well in the end. Not least because players are looking for very different things from each style of game, and that basically means two completely different games are required really (even if they share minis and scenery).
I personally think that Warpath should be some 20-40 models each, and that a new game with a new scale should be cooked up for mass battles. It's pretty obvious really, and there is clearly an Epic-style-game-shaped-gap in the market right now that Mantic could fill if it wished. Then again, not sure I want Restic 6mm infantry models <shudder>.
-
Then again, not sure I want Restic 6mm infantry models <shudder>.
"That one's a figure. The one next to it is a mouldline..." ;D
Warpath and Warpath: Firefight are the names of the two rulesets. We've not been told what they cover yet though you can probably guess :D
-
I'll be in for a rulebook only pledge I think. I've played a couple of Warpath games and there's something to them, they just need some refinement.
-
Here's some info from their blog:
Back in May we revealed the alpha version of our latest Warpath rules. Warpath has gone through various iterations since the initial tests back in 2011, and this latest version goes back to the roots – it is a mass-battle game with abstracted details to make it quick and simple to play – something we’ve had huge success with, as Kings of War fans will know. However, we will cover that version of Warpath in detail tomorrow.
Today we’re here to talk about something a little different…
The feedback on this year’s alpha was varied. The mechanics largely went down well as we’d hoped, and the players who had a chance to test out the rules gave us some really reassuring comments. However, for a portion of our community the rules didn’t provide the gaming fix they were looking for. The Warpath we put out is something quite different, whereas a lot of people were searching for a viable alternative to the other games on the market that they are currently playing, and wanted certain design points of those games carried through to Warpath.
These gamers wanted a game that had more granularity – something that could be played with smaller forces (somewhere from platoon to company level, as opposed to an “army”, but not single squad level like Deadzone) and something that gave more weight to the individual figures, rather than the units. This is understandable – wargaming is a hobby after all, and you will have all spent many hours lovingly painting your models – making them a more integral part of the action is a just reward.
In response, we commissioned Warpath: Firefight. The brief was to take the same objectives that we had with Warpath, and carry forward some of the game mechanics, but build them into a game that ticked all of these boxes – individual casualty removal, more detail, and less abstraction of stats and abilities – a more cinematic game. The game would use fewer figures, and zooming in on the action would alter some of the strategic choices, but the mandate to create a fast, slick, sci-fi game still remained.
The core objectives of the game were to firstly create something that “felt” sci-fi, with a focus on shooting and advanced tech. The game was to be dynamic and reactive, with emphasis on suppressive fire, tactical formations, combined arms, and as much tactical choice as possible. Terrain was to be majorly important both as an in-game objective, and to make the playing field obviously different from other wargames like Kings of War. In between all of these things, we absolutely had to keep the core rules as simple as possible, as you have come to expect from Mantic. These goals are something that we are taking forward with both Warpath and Firefight, but in different ways.
To ensure that Firefight was approached with fresh eyes and to avoid confusing it with the “mass-battle” mindset of Warpath, we wanted it written by a completely different designer to the original game, and who better than Mark Latham? Mark has previously been in charge of Warhammer 40,000 and also headed up the White Dwarf team, so he knows his way around a sci-fi wargame.
Mark is still working on the rules themselves, but he has put together some notes on some of the things to expect from Firefight as opposed to Warpath.
• Every model matters – casualty removal, positioning and variation of weaponry and equipment within a unit are all important.
• Detailed rules for unit interaction considering the more free-form approach.
• More detail for weapon types and special rules.
• Get into the thick of the action, using true LOS, per-model hits in shooting and melee, improved terrain occupying rules, and Warpath’s Orders system.
For those of you eager to try out the Firefight rules, if there is anything else that you want to see, please let us know below and we will make sure Mark sees all of the comments. This game is for you guys after all – we want it to be perfect!
Let us know what you think in the comments below, and check back tomorrow for more information on the Warpath rules!
Remember, the Kickstarter goes live at 1:30pm BST on Monday 21st September.
I was always more interested in the mass battles game however with Mark working on Firefight you can colour me interested.
-
It's good to see that Mantic appear to have taken on board many of my comments already (seems I'm not alone in my thoughts!) - but I absolutely do not want true line of sight!
TLOS is "cool" in the way that you would lie on the floor to see your action figures at eye-level whilst making pew-pew noises as a kid, but if you are expected to have any reasonable density of terrain in a game it breaks down immediately.
It's also a huge source of argument and debate because it makes something that should be quick, universal, and objective (a rule) into something that is vague, exploitable, and subjective (a personal preference/guess to determine that you are "right" or not).
I would also be wary Mantic of confusing "detail" with an over-burden of unit/model options. Games like Infinity solve this by having fixed loadout profiles for each model, but I'm not sure this would work at squad-level in the same way. Detail is good, but having too many unit upgrade options is just messy (and puts new players off too - leading to the rise of things like "net-listing" which is the surest death-knell of any fun that might be had in a game).
Anyway, it seems that Mantic are listening hard and so I am prepared to be very pleasantly surprised! :)
-
who better than Mark Latham? Mark has previously been in charge of Warhammer 40,000 and also headed up the White Dwarf team
Who worse than Mark Latham?
The TLOS thing just confirms that concern.
-
Just paced my pre-order for Gates of Antares box set from Wayland games with 20% off.Looking forward to seeing the rule book.
-
I might be interested in the rules and a few pieces here or there, but with all the stuff I've bought over the past 5+ years, I don't really need figures to go with whatever game they put out. I'll be keeping an eye on it at launch though.
-
With a reasonable definition of need, I don't think I'll ever need another miniature again (apart from some terrain maybe)... But I'm not likely going to be inclined to be reasonable ;D
-
Who worse than Mark Latham?
The TLOS thing just confirms that concern.
Disturbing that someone who presided over a downturn in 40k rules and balance is being lauded as a good thing.
Not impressed with the miniatures either
-
It might be a touch unfair to pile in on somebody for writing so-so 40k rules as a reason to discount other efforts they may make. It's been an open rumour for a long time that the level of changes any writer was actually allowed to make to the 40k/WHFB rules was rather limited afterall (I think Andy Chambers managed the biggest shift in either game for 40k3E, and even he was somewhat reigned in by Management).
Anyway, we'll have to see I guess - I for one would like to see what rules are proposed before I even consider backing at the book-only/entry level.
-
I assume that the Latham version is not the one they released as a beta a while back then? Not that I have read it (yet) but I heard it was quite different from the version we tested in our group back in '13.
-
Precisely, Wachaza!
It might be a touch unfair to pile in on somebody for writing so-so 40k rules as a reason to discount other efforts they may make. It's been an open rumour for a long time that the level of changes any writer was actually allowed to make to the 40k/WHFB rules was rather limited afterall (I think Andy Chambers managed the biggest shift in either game for 40k3E, and even he was somewhat reigned in by Management).
I knew somebody would mention that. ;) The problem is, that bad game resented by many people is still the best or only example of his rule-writing career. Unless there's a foolproof method of sifting out his input from 'The Man's', or somewhere there's a copy of his first draft snagged from the dumpsters in Lenton, there's not much reason to believe his involvement in Warpath is a good thing. At best, he's an unknown quantity. It's not exactly a reason for hype and celebration.
-
@ Vermis:
Oh I understand; I was merely also pointing out that his involvement wasn't automatically bad either.
At best, he's an unknown quantity. It's not exactly a reason for hype and celebration.
Basically, this! :)
-
Since GW removed credits from books it's hard to tell who did what but if he's being lauded by Warlord for having "been in charge of Warhammer 40,000 and also headed up the White Dwarf team, " it's not the best bit of any CV. "In charge" implies he's at least implementing the overall plan which has been less than spectacular on both 40k and White Dwarf over the past five years or so.
-
The latest from the Mantic blog:
Yesterday we kicked off our Warpath rules coverage with an article on Warpath: Firefight, and today I’m here to talk to you about Warpath itself.
Especially in recent years there are plenty of great sci-fi games on the market, and as such we decided that with Warpath we wanted to do something a little different, and not directly compete with those other games. Warpath was born out of the desire to create something aspirational and yet achievable. It’s that big exciting battle that you always built up your collection to play but rarely, if ever, actually played. Warpath makes that goal both affordable, and playable in just a few hours with abstracted rules and simple mechanics.
This sort of game isn’t for everyone of course, and I firmly believe that creating the Firefight rules was the right thing to do for those who want something a little more detailed. However who says we have to have just one set on rules? On with Warpath!
Warpath focuses on units rather than individuals, with small fire teams the base-level entity in the game. Essentially that means one statline for five figures rather than one for one, to improve the speed of play. There are still detailed choices to be made about the composition of your units, but these are restricted to the army-building stage so you don’t have to worry about them in the middle of a game. This squad focus does two things.
Firstly it focuses the player’s attention on overall strategy and tactical choice – the game is a lot more about which units to put where, which targets to shoot at which time, when to combine fire, when to split fire, and so on. It is less about the impact of each individual soldier, and takes more of a general’s view of the battlefield as opposed to a sergeant’s. This tactical decision making is reflected in the mechanics – suppression, charge reactions, the order of activations and Warpath’s Orders system are all designed to maximise tactical choice without adding complexity to the rules. Obvious choices are the bane of all games – it’s really important that the outcome of the game is directly influenced by player decisions to make those decisions feel meaningful.
Secondly, it means that the game can be more fast and dynamic, and that players can smoothly expand to bigger and bigger games without the game becoming clunky. We had the same goal with Kings of War, and we have successfully run 16,000 point games at our Open Days in just a few hours. We want to do similar things with Warpath, and recreate some truly epic battles.
15Forge Father Tank – Work In Progress Render
Before anyone gets intimidated by the size of the game, Warpath is designed to work with forces of just 30-40 figures – the mechanics will work just as well at that size, and of course your games will be even quicker. The army selection mechanics are not fully developed yet, but we are planning that “standard” tournament-sized games will be in the 50-60 model region for elite armies like the Enforcers, with 100-150 models for horde armies such as the Plague.
Both Warpath and Firefight are perfectly valid games depending on your personal choice. Some people will only play one, and will play Firefight even on an apocalyptic scale for the cinematic experience, and others will prefer Warpath even at the smallest size for a more fast-paced strategic game. Others will start with Firefight for smaller games, and build up to Warpath for the bigger games. Whichever you prefer, I urge you to at least give both games a try – you might surprise yourself!
Look out for an updated version of the alpha rules coming soon, with all of the feedback from the community Alpha test implemented. These rules will stay in an alpha state while the alterations are tested, and we will be taking on feedback throughout the Kickstarter. Once we have everyone’s comments, we will solidify the game and go to an open beta, with plenty of time to get all of the testing done to fully balance the forces. We want to make Warpath the Kings of War of the sci-fi world, and it’s worth putting in the time to do it.
-
So much 'personal' stuff going on here.
People slating Andy Chambers for their own point of view. I started wargaming with 2nd ed 40k. I started collecting a little before the release of it but that was the rule set released at that I started with.
It was both great and horrific at the same time. Great because it was incredibly flexible and horrific because it birthed 'power gamers'. They'd play the percentages down to the very point. The game was also a bit clunky in places.
Andy Chambers changed things and by and large 3rd ed was preferable to me, and a vast majority of people I know. However, it wasn't precisely the game he wanted. If what I was told is true then the Starship Trooper rules are much closer to what he had intended for 40k.
Either way he has experience and was involved in a well selling ruleset. That's all that really matters IMHO. Wait until you see rules before you judge them. And really don't judge it on your personal experience of GW. GW has narked a number of people off down the years and have recently shed a number of the 'original' staff team who were behind much of the first 20-25 years of success.
-
I'll be in on the rules for the Kickstarter - Firefight sounds good to me , but a lean unit-based game could have a lot of appeal.
-
A lean unit-based game could have a lot of appeal.
Agreed - if the game is abstracted sufficiently (no TLOS!) it might lend itself well to 6-15mm gaming which would in fact appeal to me.
-
Who worse than Mark Latham?
The TLOS thing just confirms that concern.
Haha. And people ask me why I never swing by forums about games I'm writing. Water off a duck's back ;)
As for the rules, I haven't actually started yet, but eager to get cracking.
Yours,
Mark
-
And people ask me why I never swing by forums about games I'm writing.
In this instance I'll put it down to the fact that people I rag on their absence have a tendency to turn up and make me wish the ground would open up.
Hello Mark. Given the track record of some ex-GW rules writers (Andy Chambers, Jake Thornton, Alessio, etc.) I'm not concerned as I first appeared. That was a bad knee-jerk reaction, I admit. Sorry. But I still think there needs to be more of a track record than 40K before Mantic gets me excited (is there one?) and I still think TLOS is a bad idea. ;)
-
With a reasonable definition of need, I don't think I'll ever need another miniature again (apart from some terrain maybe)... But I'm not likely going to be inclined to be reasonable ;D
This.
There's no 'urgency' on this one tho. I'll wait for regular retail.
-
Updated alpha rules are up:
These rules have had lots of little tweaks since the earlier release back in May, and a couple of larger ones too! Have a read, and let us know what you think. However, before you do so, there are a few things you should bear in mind:
Layout: This document is a work-in-progress version of the rulebook, including notes and directions for graphical layout in green, page references in yellow, and additional text to be added in blue. Once all of the rules are finalised we will get this laid out properly and start to fill the gaps with art and background, but for now it’s in a bare-bones state.
Discussion Point: Unit Hubs: These rules were written before the Firefight edition was conceived, and therefore contain a few compromises with regard to how units move around the table – hubs and unit coherency and how they interact with line of sight, model placement etc. We know that there are clunky elements to these rules, and are still working on them.
As a mass-battle game, the rules may be slicker if it used some sort of unit stands, like Kings of War or other smaller scale games out there like Dropzone Commander. However, some people were not keen on the idea, and so to cater for as many people as possible the rules were written to allow for individual model placement.
Now that we have Firefight, we do have the option to make Warpath use these unit stands – those who aren’t keen on the aesthetic have another option instead. Using stands as a core part of the rules means that the rules on hubs and unit positioning can be massively simplified, with knock-on streamlining effects to other areas of the rules.
What are your thoughts?
Points Values: Please be aware that these points values have had minimal testing. They are educated estimates, and as such, some of them may be quite wrong. Once we finalise the core rules and go to open beta, these will refined to properly balance the game.
Army Selection Rules: These have not yet been written, and will come once the rules are solidified. For now just use what you’ve got that feels balanced. We are also aware that the unit upgrades are a little inconsistent – these will be clarified later.
Alpha/Beta?: This release is still an alpha, and will remain so for the next couple of months until we are more solid on the points listed above, and have incorporated all of the feedback. Towards the end of the year we will have a long open beta period to firm up all the special rules and balance the points values.
Right, it’s time for the rules. You can download them here…
http://manticblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Warpath-KS-Alpha.pdf
-
Haha. And people ask me why I never swing by forums about games I'm writing. Water off a duck's back ;)
As for the rules, I haven't actually started yet, but eager to get cracking.
Hi Mark,
I'm familiar with your work on White Dwarf and Warhammer Historical but what design did you do on 40k?
-
@ Marshall Sparks:
Firstly, welcome! :)
Personal critiques from posters aside, I don't see why you wouldn't visit forums and ask people questions about the rules you're writing? Especially if you're wanting them to back you in a KS project where people often like to feel somewhat involved.
I don't think there's much merit in seeking consensus/approval on every detail as you write rules (that way madness lies!), but the games I play which have had open betas (Warmachine, Hordes, Malifaux) have all benefited considerably from the process IMO.
I also think that serious thought, consideration, and discussion needs to be given to the super-basic elements like:
- What is the size and focus of the game, and can or should the game scale out of the "designed" size?
- What dice and dice mechanic will the game use?
- What game information is open, and what is private?
- Is pre-measuring allowed, and when can you measure?
- TLOS or abstracted LOS?
- How will you define the space occupied by models/units? Will they have a size stat, a base size, etc? (This ties into LOS above somewhat, but also affects things like unit coherency, unit mobility, model facing, and so on).
There are already a myriad of miniatures rulesets out there, and many of those I've seen really seem to struggle with stating these basic concepts unambiguously. What makes it worse is that the game rules rely on these being clearly established to work, and often generate loads of obvious FAQs when they are not. As a quick example - Frostgrave seems to have folks asking a lot of fairly basic questions that I feel shouldn't need asking, whereas games like Deadzone seem to have managed this better (with a lot of actual rules issues revolving around skills and equipment interactions).
Of course, clear rules don't automatically make for a fun game either - I refer you to the Frostgrave and Deadzone examples again, where Deadzone is great in a lots of ways except the actual playing of the game (which our group just cannot seem to enjoy no matter how hard we try), and Frostgrave is great fun despite having lots of little loose rules areas. :P
Anyway, I look froward to seeing what you come up with! Will you be writing from scratch and incorporating elements from the Alpha, or will you be tweaking the Alpha?
-
Personal critiques from posters aside, I don't see why you wouldn't visit forums and ask people questions about the rules you're writing?
I don't think there's much merit in seeking consensus/approval on every detail as you write rules (that way madness lies!)
Sort of answered your own question there ;)
Honestly, I broke my own rule here, and it’s purely because I love LAF, and browse it almost every day as a punter rather than as a designer. It was weird to see a bit of heat towards me on my favourite (normally exceptionally friendly) forum, and I bit. My bad.
There are several “dangers” with engaging frequently on forums, which is why I’ll post this and then bow out, respectfully, at least until the project is further along. Firstly, it turns healthy discussion between fans into an FAQ with the author – I’m sure you can see that, just for saying “Hi”, I’ve already been asked a bunch of questions that I can’t answer yet about the game design (mostly because I haven’t started work, and partly because it’s Mantic’s party, I’m just a humble freelancer), and even to justify my games design CV. And that's not to mention the trickle of PMs ;)
The second danger is that, when I’ve seen authors step into online debate – especially heated debate – on LAF and elsewhere, it often feels like the author is throwing his weight around and “closing down” fan discussion, and I don’t want to be that guy.
Finally, there’s this: There are lots of forums about, so keeping up with them would be a full-time job. Do I concentrate on LAF, because I personally prefer it? What about Dakka Dakka, or Warseer, or the BoLS comments, or Beasts of War, and so on? To explain my own stance, I've been designing games professionally, and developing others' systems, for around 16 years now, but it's no longer my primary occupation. I do it because I’m a die-hard gamer, I love it, and I hope other folk have fun playing the games I write. These days I'm a novelist by trade, but I still do games design on commission, which is why I've been linked with several projects just lately. But those novels don't write themselves, so I try not to spend all day perusing forums unless I'm actively working on a project, if that makes sense.
To put your mind at rest, however, Mantic games has always thrived on fan discussion and input. Some of your questions have, I think, already been addressed on the Mantic blog, but for future reference, there will, of course, be proper channels for feedback on these rules, which will be organised by Mantic, so I'll be getting plenty of feedback as I go. Fans will be engaged on this game to a level I personally haven't experienced before, which is both challenging and really exciting for me. Keep an eye on the Mantic blog and on the Kickstarter for that, and for answers to all your other points!
Anyway, I look froward to seeing what you come up with! Will you be writing from scratch and incorporating elements from the Alpha, or will you be tweaking the Alpha?
I've yet to begin work proper, but will be working on it throughout the duration of the Kickstarter. Mantic approached me and asked me what I'd do with the Alpha if I had free rein; I gave them an opinion, I’m proud to say they came back and asked me to action those opinions. I'll be developing the existing rules rather than starting from scratch, and I imagine that once the main job of work is done, the Mantic team will develop the game going forward, with occasional input from moi.
Hope that’s clear; apologies if I stuck my big size nines into the thread unwanted – backing away now :D
Latham Out!
-
@ Marshall Sparks:
Thank you for taking the time to reply. I understand your position on many of the points raised, although I do hope that there will be some (maybe limited) discussion that you participate in - perhaps on the Mantic forum, which would be the obvious place.
______________________________________________________________
Since Giger posted the rules, I've had a quick read through the Alpha rules, and they look promising.
I have few off-the-cuff thoughts, in no particular order:
- I know this is an Alpha, but a contents page would be *really* useful please! Even though I hope the final rulebook will have a proper index as well, a contents page in the meantime helps get you to the right area should you need to look a rule whilst playing some test games.
- A developer's explanation is always welcome, but I think the language needs work - maybe it's just me, but I find a number of such comments in the Alpha are a little bit presumptuous and patronising... :?
- I am just not sold on TLOS in any game - it's quick in some ways, but fiddly in lots of others. Also, the main reasoning for TLOS explained ("odd situations" and "feel") doesn't really fit that well with the abstracted nature of the other rules (for example, the explanations of heights). If you are playing in more dense terrain (a forest, city, ruins, etc), getting a "model-eye-view" doesn't really work anyway. Finally, getting a model-eye-view to determine a crucial aspect of the game doesn't really give players the feeling of being a top-level commander directing the units battlefield; it's too personal for that.
- I would like to see defined model base sizes (I would also have bases for vehicles too personally). Just because it makes measuring and such universal and allows for cool modelling opportunities.
- I like the flow of the game from what I can tell. The focus on shooting, suppressing, and manoeuvring looks well thought-out. I'd have to play a game or two to get a proper feel though, of course.
- I like that you don't seem to need templates for this game. Not only is it less stuff to cart around for a game, it doesn't lock you into having to keep them in later editions or FAQ changes. It also doesn't encourage models in units from having to spread out everywhere, which I think always looks untidy and a bit false in a game (even though it's probably "realistic").
- I'm a bit disappointed to see both regular D6 and "rule of 1 and 6". With dice like D12s, the top-and-bottom-score rule is not so bad, but on dice with only six faces it makes the results feel a bit "cramped". I get that D6 are easy to find, but other dice are not much harder to buy and allow a bit more tweaking if needed. I also feel that using dice with wider results is an opportunity to build in some extra scope into the core rules for balancing and future units later on.
- I'm not sure about the special dice for Orders. I think that using common D6 for the main game and then having a special dice as well is a bit backwards. Can this not be done a different and simple way that avoids needing proprietary dice?
- I quite like the way that the units are chosen in the army lists - it seems straightforward (reminds me of Epic Armageddon actually, which is a good thing).
- I don't really like the massive extra rules that some of the Veermyn models have. I can see that they are fluffy and fun, and I don't want them to lose that; but isn't there a neater way to accomplish this via a couple of universal rules?
Anyway, just some initial feedback. :)
-
..even to justify my games design CV.
If your employers are touting your involvement in the rules based on what you did on 40k then surely the question "What did you do on 40k?" is a fair one?
-
For the love of all that is holy... Avoid TLOS like the plague!!!!
-
Funded in 4 minutes 52 seconds :o
Well, not that big a surprise actually, seeing that they do give a reasonable amount of stuff and their target was a modest $25,000.
-
One of the stretch goals was rules for 10mm ,which has been smashed. Seems mantic have been listening to peoples calls for a more EPIC scale game.
Maybe this means they'll be making the miniatures.
-
Mass Sci fi games aren't really.my thing (and I'm more interested in Antares really) but I'm in for the rules only pledge. I've got more than enough stuff through the Deadzone KS (Am I the only person who actually enjoys that game?)
-
$1 for both rule books in PDF? That's good value as far as I'm concerned. ;)
-
yes that is. I am tempted by that
My pledge for sure, maybe I add the flyer for $ 30,- ; it is generic enough.
:)
-
Mass Sci fi games aren't really.my thing (and I'm more interested in Antares really) but I'm in for the rules only pledge. I've got more than enough stuff through the Deadzone KS (Am I the only person who actually enjoys that game?)
No you are not, ;) Deadzone is definitely more interesting to me than ANY mass combat system in 28mm.
Mass combat is very nice in 6/ 10 or 15mm , but for everything else I stick to skirmish games.
-
One of the stretch goals was rules for 10mm ,which has been smashed. Seems mantic have been listening to peoples calls for a more EPIC scale game.
Maybe this means they'll be making the miniatures.
Super news - I look forward to seeing more details! :)
Mass Sci fi games aren't really.my thing (and I'm more interested in Antares really) but I'm in for the rules only pledge.
I can't really see the appeal in Antares, besides the low-ish model count. I keep trying, and... Dunno. I guess they don't really feel very sci-fi to me, and I don't find what the rules let me do in the game is very interesting. Also, there is so little out there about Antares that it's hard for me to judge if I'm the minority feeling that way. :/
I've got more than enough stuff through the Deadzone KS (Am I the only person who actually enjoys that game?)
I like the game... Just not the rules. I think they are clever, but too limited and limiting. The special abilities are then too often used to patch the limitations of the game rather than focussing on adding flavour to units, which is clunky. Add to that the small number of actions available to a model and tiny number of models on each side, and it leads to a frustrating game experience. Anyway, I've written about this enough elsewhere now, so I'll leave it at that. I will say though that I hope DZ: Infestation has some significant improvements!
Tangentially, I didn't really get on with MERCS either (for frankly similar reasons to DZ), but if you like 5-model skirmish games in the DZ style, you might enjoy MERCS. Just be aware that you *need* the cards for the models in order to play as the model stats and abilities used not to be in the main rulebook.
-
Well, for anybody still following, it looks like the Plague are up next for their turn in hard plastics. So far, the 3rd Gen models look pretty good to me:
(https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/004/554/022/5696f470bf69880ea49c3e011f1776c4_original.jpg?v=1443024827&w=639&fit=max&auto=format&q=92&s=cf30f3574b21fc14d0597bda2c3a137f)
The officer's hat is quite fun, and the guns and poses look rather better than the original DZ models. IMO, of course! I've seen peeks of the HMG version too, and they also look good. :)
-
Not bad. I'll have to mark the campaign to get a reminder before it ends.
-
Mass Sci fi games aren't really.my thing (and I'm more interested in Antares really) but I'm in for the rules only pledge. I've got more than enough stuff through the Deadzone KS (Am I the only person who actually enjoys that game?)
Haha. No, you're not. I enjoy Deadzone for what it is, not what it isn't ;)
And I'm backing Warpath for the Firefight rules... which I can probably play with my existing Deadzone minis plus a few extras from this KS. Not so keen on the full Warpath as mass battles aren't my thing nowadays.
-
I have no need for picking up this much miniatures at once, but I am hoping they pull all of this off since a lot of the models look like I might want a box or two somewhere in the future. Those aliens, anstarans? Look like they would make nice eldar titans for epic btw. lol
-
The new design of Forgefather Steel Legion is excellent. Finally a wholly sci-fi set of basic troops :)
-
I am a bit concerned that despite good efforts by Mantic on the miniatures front, there's still no whiff of anything like close-to-final rules or lists...
So those of us with lots of DZ models (ahem... ::)) are left wondering what (if?) we need to get in model-terms to have playable forces.
I'm also wondering if single-squad sets will be made available for those who want to top-up rather double-up?
-
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1744629938/warpath-the-sci-fi-battle-game
Single sprues of plastic troopers now available trough the KS. :)
So if you back for $1, you can add on whatever you like - even if it's just five Peacekeepers or a box of Zombies. Plus, you get a free digital copy of the rules!
-
I'm thinking about picking up a few of the vehicles...
-
I'm thinking about picking up a few of the vehicles...
I've asked Mantic if they can offer a mix-n-match set of them. ;)
-
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1744629938/warpath-the-sci-fi-battle-game
Single sprues of plastic troopers now available trough the KS. :)
So if you back for $1, you can add on whatever you like - even if it's just five Peacekeepers or a box of Zombies. Plus, you get a free digital copy of the rules!
Very tempting, is there any list of available sprues and actual contents of them?
-
They show them on the KS page as model sets, but a 5-model set *is* one model sprue. They have a few of the Enforcer, Zombie and Forge Father troop plastics listed on their webstore I think, and photos of the sprues can be found on Google. The Veermyn stuff and some of the Enforcers and Plague are new though - either to this KS or the DZ2 one. Cheap enough for a punt on a sprue though! ;-)
-
no orks. ::)
They are coming, along with Rebs, but not in this KS apparently. They also won't have a formal list in the upcoming rulebooks (although the human corporations list will be allowed to hire some mercenary orks).
I think many people want to see the orks redesigned a bit into something less stupid than GW 40k orks, even if they still have the same obvious fantasy origins. This means Mantic will have to do more design and background work, especially if what they produce isn't just going to be a straight port of 40k ork army list choices.
Likewise, the Rebs are a not really a "mass battle" army, so are going to need quite a bit of thought and playtesting in order to make them (1) fun and (2) balanced. Even in DZ it's quite clear that they weren't tested enough.
Anyway. As happy as I am to see the new plastic kits (which look nice, I admit), I am a bit concerned that there is still no sign of the beta rules. So... Makes it hard to judge what you might "need" to buy or have in order to play a cohesive force with.
-
I'm still see-sawing on this project. I pledged $1 just so I could follow the updates but I'm just not totally sold yet. The Enforcers are what first attracted me, I like the figures and the jetbikes and Interceptor vehicles are very cool looking. The problem is, I don't know anyone else who is pledging this locally, which means I need to buy two forces to demo it and hopefully build some local interest. Unfortunatly, aside from the Enforcers, none of the factions are really grabbing my interest. The Forgefathers are... okay. I like some of the figures but the tank leaves me cold. The Vermin and Plague do nothing for me. The Asterians sound good but I'm not super exited by what I've seen so far. Maybe they'll grow on me. ???
Actually, right now the thing I find the most exciting it that modular terrain. The examples of different configurations look really good, and I can see lots of uses for that in games I already have, in addition to a possible Warpath. ;)
-
I decided to up my pledge for two sets of the new Asterian droid thingies. One needs to hope they won't change the design too much from how they look now.
In regards to the terrain sets, you might want to consider that although there are a fair number of rather good quality plastic components (some have small design flaws as understand from a gaming buddy) per "battlezone" (IIRC that's how Mantic prefers to call them), there are only rather few different tiles in each. So eventually all of the stuff you build from larger sets will start to look a little repetitive. Not a problem obviously if you want that prefab outpost/suburb look for you table.
-
In for $1 myself. I might increase the amount with the pledge manager, but that's only if the Deadzone Infestation campaign delivers before the Warpath pledge manager closes. I'm trying to dial back the amount of money I've got tied up in kickstarters at any one time.
-
In regards to the terrain sets, you might want to consider that although there are a fair number of rather good quality plastic components (some have small design flaws as understand from a gaming buddy) per "battlezone" (IIRC that's how Mantic prefers to call them), there are only rather few different tiles in each. So eventually all of the stuff you build from larger sets will start to look a little repetitive. Not a problem obviously if you want that prefab outpost/suburb look for you table.
Yeah, that's true. I like the look of the demo table they used for the main KS photo. You can tell if you really look close that a lot of it is made with the same few pieces, but they used a couple different paint jobs and then mixed in a couple of other terrain pieces, and I think it looks pretty good. I'd love to find out how many of those plastic pannels it took to build that board.
-
I got quite a bit of the terrain from the first deadzone kickstarter and the only real "flaw" in the actual pieces was that the connectors don't really work for temporary builds. Out of the box they're so tight you can break them trying to get pieces apart but if you shave them down then they become too loose. I've glued all of mine permanently so it's not a big deal but if you have dreams of taking a table full of terrain and breaking it down into a flat box, it doesn't really work out that way.
For me the biggest problem is the distribution of parts in the basic building kit. Far too many of the doors and windows, far too few solid walls and the cross girder structural walls. Plus, with all the kits I found you want at least one more sprue of connectors than comes in the kit at $5.00 a pop.
Overall they're worth the KS price to me, but not nearly as good as advertised.
-
I have a *ton* of DZ scenery from the KS.
My observations are:
1) Some pieces have a little warping. Nothing major enough to spoil your build completely, but enough that you will need to test fit all the pieces as best you can first, and that you will still occasionally have to perform some surgery on the parts.
2) It's very modular. However, whilst you can change the configuration a bit before you finalise your design, it's not really suitable for building and unbuilding regularly. The parts are designed too precisely and moulded too imprecisely for that to be a real option. In other words, this not Lego quality!
3) It's designed around 3" cubes, which regardless of the repetition of the components, does leave all the buildings looking rather similar and crudely-shaped. Not the end of the world, and they can still produce a nice varied table full of terrain, but to really get a "wow!" effect, you will need to add a bit of effort yourself in terms of (basically) conversion work with plasticard and a saw.
4) The distribution of parts on sprues and sets is not great. I think the sprues should have been designed as a core of simpler panels with less variation, and then had supplement sprues which added doors, windows, and appliqué detail panels. This would have made it easy for Mantic to either juggle the sprues around to get better parts balance in each set, and also to sell individual sprues according to demand. Instead, you inevitably end up with a fair collection of odds and ends that never make anything useful on their own. I also feel that each terrain set needs at least one more connector sprue than is supplied.
5) The connectors are often too tight or loose to fit smoothly, and too delicate for reliable disassembly without breaking. I would use some smooth-faced needle-nose pliers to clip the connectors into the panels, and then use very thin superglue around them to make the joins permanent. I would also use plain plasticard or such for bigger floors - the panels and connectors make for a very uneven and knobbly surface to balance miniatures on.
6) Quite a lot of key elements are simply missing; there are almost no stairs or ramps, and there are no low-level lips to fit around roofs (only waist-high pieces). Walkways have to be made up from short 3" pieces that makes them wobbly, and the doors are a nuisance to fit as they only "clip on" via a little peg at the top. There are also no shutters for the windows.
7) The terrain is okay value. If you can get a discounted set, or a bundle deal, then it's pretty good value. The sets in the current WP kickstarter are not very different in price from full-price RRP, so I'd shop around a bit. That said, the KS does have a really nifty graphic that shows what you get in each set/sprue (which is so helpful, I can't believe they don't have it on their webstore!)
So in conclusion: They are good, but need work; they are good value if you can get a bit of discount on them; they are versatile but not reconfigurable.
-
The smaller "watch tower" set has a much better ratio of flat panels and X beams to windows and lamp posts! Troll Trader has the set for £7.99 delivered which is well below rrp too:
http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wargames-Mantic-Necromunda-Infinity-Marine-Space-Imperial-Sci-fi-Watch-Tower-/311207983678?nav=SEARCH
- bear in mind it has no ladders though.
Presumably at some point 'Operation Heracles' will be an actual starter box, with rule books, order dice, tokens, plastic figures etc for £50-£70, so all the components being listed separately during the campaign is a bit disingenuous?
-
Gonna be honest, anything Mantic does to make any of their ranges less cartoony, I'll back to the hilt. (Whether they have to fall back on their KS habit for it, or if my wallet will be involved, are other matters) I'm already looking with despair at those space-ratmen, the space-dwarf Masters of the Universe tank, and the space-elves with space-bows.
Space elf drones don't look altogether bad, though. IMO.
-
Hey, I like the cartoony space rats. :D But I get what your saying, things are ofthen either very down to earth grim or over the top cartoony in miniatures, that or downright bland.
I think I might back just to get the kickstarter exclusive rat. I think I would like him for both superheroes and shadowrun games.
-
Presumably at some point 'Operation Heracles' will be an actual starter box, with rule books, order dice, tokens, plastic figures etc for £50-£70, so all the components being listed separately during the campaign is a bit disingenuous?
I agree a bit - if they don't list the components out, it makes it hard to keep track of what you're getting exactly (the problem they had with Deadzone 1 in fact).
I prefer seeing it as a schedule of components because it clarifies what's an add-on, and what's an upgrade of a component previously included.
Jeebus wept sainted tears of blood for these people. ::)
Er, "these people" = Mantic, or those who want non-GW orks...?
Gonna be honest, anything Mantic does to make any of their ranges less cartoony, I'll back to the hilt. (Whether they have to fall back on their KS habit for it, or if my wallet will be involved, are other matters) I'm already looking with despair at those space-ratmen, the space-dwarf Masters of the Universe tank, and the space-elves with space-bows.
Space elf drones don't look altogether bad, though. IMO.
I brought the He-Man dwarf tank up several times. One of the answers I got from a fan of them was:
I see your point however my point is that dwarfs are traditionalists and one of those traditions is they make faces on everything and as far as practicality goes they aren't that practical look at the troops that have BEARD ARMOR. Now don't get me wrong I like the look but it isn't practical and could be seen as VERY SILLY However the design fits cohesively together when looked at as a whole. If you get rid of one then I'd say you have to go down the line and then you might as well have generic armored beans because they make the most sense for glancing armor from all angles and it would be highly effective but boring. Dwarf in the future are smart enough to make it work and support their proud heritage. I again see your point but there are valid points to these designs as well based on the racial heritage and look that they come from.
Hey, I like the cartoony space rats. :D But I get what your saying, things are ofthen either very down to earth grim or over the top cartoony in miniatures, that or downright bland.
I think I might back just to get the kickstarter exclusive rat. I think I would like him for both superheroes and shadowrun games.
I like space rats, but prefer them to look vicious instead of... like comical dogs. I think Mantic have improved their space rates somewhat for their upcoming plastics, but would have preferred it if they had been a bit more aggressive and sleek still.
-
Hey, I like the cartoony space rats. :D But I get what your saying, things are ofthen either very down to earth grim or over the top cartoony in miniatures, that or downright bland.
Don't worry though; looking at other forums (and the KS itself) I can see I'm in the minority. ;)
But yeah, there's too much dissonance between the races for my liking. And like Gilbear, I'm not altogether opposed to the idea of space rats, but (in my eyes) these guys... well... (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/e8/f2/72/e8f272443500848f636118e75186f9bf.gif) :?
I see your point however my point is that dwarfs are traditionalists and one of those traditions is they make faces on everything
Since when?
More to the point, that plus...
Dwarf in the future... based on the racial heritage and look that they come from.
I know the look wasn't exactly subtle to begin with, but is this guy's defence that they're straight-up fantasy dwarfs just ported over IRL*, and descended from the same in-universe?
*I.e. the official overarching reason GW's squats got the boot, 'cos they couldn't think of anything more unique and interesting to do with them.
-
What worries me is that the
Ork Marauder stuff will go down the route of ramshackle vehicles with faces on them as well, thust obviating any real reason for not doing them in in plastic in this KS. ::)
"Beard armour" notwithstanding though, I fail to see why that means a tank/APC needs a face. That's like bolting shoes onto it becuase troops in that army have footwear. ::)
But yes, I somewhat agree that if you're copying a race that was dropped from another game due to lack of anything imaginative to do with it... Well, good luck to you.
-
Like I said, I'm considering the kickstarter exclusive, which is I think the least cartoony of them. Most sleek and deadly looking I think. The leader models that are all bloated lumbering giants don't really work for me either sadly.
-
Just built a squad of skaven stormvermin with leftover bits from a box of 40k skitarii. Bit of shaving, bit of filling here and there, but generally a good fit. Some of them will even do for fantasy Jezzails.
Following on from your comments, what made them look really sleek and ratty was shaving the crests off their helmets. So the Mantic gasmasked rats don't do it for me at all, sadly.
Just about enough in the KS to keep me interested, although I'm thinking of dropping to the rulebook pledge level.
-
I, er... I actually liked the Orx Marauders, although I tarted up the squad I got from one of their Mystery Boxes with a load of 40k bitz.
Much less insulting than the Forge Father plastics, which had bugger all choice on the sprue, massive blocks of plastic infilling between the arms and torso rather than have separate arms and, IIRC, didn't even fit together especially well.
Latest reveal is the Corporation troopers - if they are anything at all like the artwork, they could be amazing. I know, I know...
Less fussed about the Mule transport buggy - looks like a rough version of some of Antenocititititi's vehicles.
-
Well... I liked the Marauders idea, I just didn't like it as a poor clone of the GW Orks.
The Marauders in DZ were much better than those in the first versions of WP, but still played to the GW Orks too much for my liking.
If leaving them (and the other races that didn't get a look-in) for next time gives Mantic time to *genuinely* improve the concept they have for Marauders, then I say fair play to them. On the other hand, if they just make more green ill-proportioned not-40k Orks with ramshackle vehicles and equipment, then I'm going to be pretty miffed.
I suspect that we will see another DZ kickstarter before the the next WP one; it will focus on the Zzor (an insect race), and will likely feature some Enforcers again along with the GCPS forces (a good excuse to tool special forces sprues for them), Marauders, and Rebs. After this, the basic plastics used for these factions will form the basis of the next KS for WP, and the existing plastic armies being funded this time time around (along with the initial sprues funded through DZ3) will probably be used to bulk up offers to entice funding for new vehicles.
-
oh yes if you replace entire chunks of the marauders kit they come up rather nice....
I replaced some of the guns and gave them backpacks and a flamethrower. Still recognisable as Marauders. Still like the basic figures.
-
I think they are at the point where they can man up and stand on their own two feet and have a bunch of original ideas for the mk 2 version of the marauders.
Given some of the minis for this kickstarter included a dwarf tank with a bearded face, a dreadnought/warjack armed with spear and chainsaw, space-elves with space-bows, and an old mini of a human commander with a sword, I have to say I'm dubious.
-
Latest w.i.p. rules update to be found here:
http://manticblog.com/2015/10/06/warpath-new-alpha-rules-battle-reports-gameplay-video-and-interview/
-
Am I the only one who finds it a bit odd, that some of the stretch goals are minis already funded by the last Deadzone KS?
-
Am I the only one who finds it a bit odd, that some of the stretch goals are minis already funded by the last Deadzone KS?
But it isn't the production of those minis which is being funded - it is their inclusion in bundles.
Tooling the new plastic sprues costs way more than the stretch goal intervals might suggest.
-
Agreed Maccwar.
In the same way that they clearly need more than the stated funding goal to actually make the game, they also need more than the stretch goal markers to actually tool the models in plastic.
They pretty much admitted this in the comments in DZ2 when I expressed surprise at how few hard plastic sprues were actually being funded (four sprues IIRC).
I personally feel that they're struggling with this KS right now. They are in that awkward position where they can't offer anything more that people want to add to their pledge, but at the same time they can't offer something that can't afford to make.
I also feel that their very generous pledge manager system is partly to blame here - it gets them more funding overall, but until the pledge managers are completed they don't know quite know where they stand. Compared to having the bulk of pledges up-front, I think it also robs the KS campaign of some momentum/excitement.
-
I love Mantic's sci-fi stuff overall but haven't really paid much attention to this campaign. I have hundreds of dollars worth of Dreadball, Xtreme and Deadzone. There are a few items I'd like from Warpath 2.0 like the flyers and jetbikes, but a large scale sci-fi game is really not what I am looking for.
It might also be the end of the bubble for KS, or at least a dip. As much as I enjoy getting lots of toys for my money, using it for every project feels unsustainable long term, as I think their core audience is largely the same for each. Eventually those people (myself included) will simply run out of money, lose interest, or a combination of the two.
-
There are a few items I'd like from Warpath 2.0 like the flyers and jetbikes, but a large scale sci-fi game is really not what I am looking for.
Warpath Firefight might be of more interest to you "as few as 30 soldiers a side" doesn't sound too large.
If you back it for $1 you get the PDF rulebooks and access to the pledge manager to add in any bits and pieces you might be after.
Personally I'm more looking forward to the new Deadzone rulebook but I might extend my DZ forces a little to play Firefight depending on the rules.
-
Well, I need to get my DZ2 stuff and see how I like the actual minis, before deciding if I want to level my involvement up to Firefight.
Right now, I am on an Old/Weird West rampage, and need to channel my hobby funds into getting that going.
-
Last hours. There has been a good number of vehicles unlocked, the latest of which is a flyer (get to da choppa!) for corporation and plague.
-
All done! $485k with 3355 backers.
Well done Mantic. 8)
-
Warpath pledge manager has opened, there'll be an invite in the e-mail shortly if it's not there already as it was for me this morning. Postage & packing was a bit steep for small pledges :?
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1744629938/warpath-the-sci-fi-battle-game/posts/1447686
-
Thanks for the heads up. I just checked and mine came through. Haven't paid much attention to the KS since I pledged (just for the rulebooks) but it looks like the game is really coming along.
I really liked the look of them and almost added a bunch of Forge Fathers Steel Warriors to my order, but decided not to. While the Forge Guard and Iron Ancestors are different enough to look good alongside my squats, the Steel Warriors would clash a bit much.
Then I saw the shipping! $20 on a $50 order just for the books, dice and counters! It may be actual shipping costs and it's my fault for not checking ahead of my pledge, but a KS is supposed to be a deal and it has always seemed to be the case for the previous Mantic KS's I've done (Kings of War and Deadzone)
Seeing as how...
-I don't care much about dice and counters
-There's a history of Mantic stuff showing up at retailers about the same time as backers
-There's always lots of retailers offering Mantic product at a good discount with reasonable or free shipping
...I will not be making anymore basic level pledges from Mantic kickstarters.
Maybe I'll participate if something grabs me enough to make a big buy, but that's not terribly likely. Despite some issues, I've always felt good after a Mantic KS, but this is the first one that's leaving me with a bit of a bad taste.
-
If you go in big, Mantic Kickstarters are still a decent deal over retail, but smaller orders, or competing against discounted retail, coupled with the fact that there's a really good chance the stuff hits retail before your particular box makes it through fulfillment puts a dent in any enthusiasm I have for Mantic's campaigns anymore. That and then there's the possible midstream switch in production materials as happened with Deadzone. I know I'll be waiting until the last day (February 29th) to close my pledge manger to see if there's anything I actually want to gamble on or just let them have my $1.
I don't have any interest in the Warpath rules, I just want some decent plastic sci-fi models, so it's starting to look smarter to wait 6 months post-KS delivery when MM or TWS puts them into the digital bargain bin.
-
Then I saw the shipping! $20 on a $50 order just for the books, dice and counters!
I *think* the p&p actually starts at $20, even if you just take a bag of dice or whatever's the smallest physical thing available. Not sure when it starts going over that, but it's definitely a "gentle nudge" towards pledging more. I put in for a 20+ set of Asterian droid troopers so the whole shebang came to $40 which isn't really all that bad.
-
I *think* the p&p actually starts at $20, even if you just take a bag of dice or whatever's the smallest physical thing available. ...
It is worse, (maybe even a bug) I am in with a $ 1 pledge just to get the digital stuff.
Mantic still want to charge me $ 20,00 for shipment!!!
I will write them soon...
-
Mantic seem to have decided there is profit to be made in overcharging shipping. On the Dungeon Saga KS they are forcing backers to pay the shipping costs for the replacement of the faulty/error ridden rulebook.
I have a $1 pledge on this KS and unless they change the shipping costs I will not be increasing it, currently I am considering asking for a full refund. I only wanted a $12 box of figures but not paying $20 extra for shipping.
-
It is worse, (maybe even a bug) I am in with a $ 1 pledge just to get the digital stuff.
Mantic still want to charge me $ 20,00 for shipment!!!
It's either a bug or they have a really expensive ISP...
-
UK shipping on the rulebook pledge was $12, which still isn't great.
It's taken me four months to get my Kings of War rulebook pledge out of them, as they were still waiting on the Blaine T-Rex model. I'd have been cheaper and quicker waiting for the book to appear in shops.
As for this one, there's a couple of figures I'd quite like, but I'll wait for them to appear in the retail chain. I'm just not feeling the love for the armies, even if they are a good deal.
This is probably my last Mantic Kickstarter.
-
I wanted the jet bikes and some other figures so I knew I'd have to pay shipping. I'll not be looking at the pledge manager until after Christmas though.
-
I think people need to police up the way they kickstart stuff. More questions more hard arse and far more cynical because at the moment its people like me that are reaping the rewards of your efforts and that should not be the case.
Mantic and Prodos are not the rule of Kickstarter though. I have participated in more kickstarter campaigns that did well than those that did poorly (Zombicide, Kingdom Death, Dreamforge, Tablescapes, Bombshell, and Incursion). True they were all behind schedule (in some cases years) but it was still faster and cheaper than retail.
I agree that people should take a rational look at a companies track record before participating in a KS campaign, but as a model it can still work.
With Mantic specifically, I think their declining numbers campaign after campaign show people are starting to vote with their wallets. Dungeon Saga was their high point and things have only dropped off from there.
-
Mantic and Prodos are not the rule of Kickstarter though. I have participated in more kickstarter campaigns that did well than those that did poorly (Zombicide, Kingdom Death, Dreamforge, Tablescapes, Bombshell, and Incursion). True they were all behind schedule (in some cases years) but it was still faster and cheaper than retail.
I agree that people should take a rational look at a companies track record before participating in a KS campaign, but as a model it can still work.
With Mantic specifically, I think their declining numbers campaign after campaign show people are starting to vote with their wallets. Dungeon Saga was their high point and things have only dropped off from there.
Agreed. I'm definitely not one to drop KS entirely (though I've supported less recently) One simply has to be careful to examine EVERY potential KS pledge.
I assumed, based on previous Mantic KS's that shipping would be reasonable. I was wrong. Clearly the Mantic KS's are a much better deal at higher pledge levels and I'll be more careful next time. I'm pretty careful to only invest in KS's with companies that have a good track record.
As an example, though I liked the concept, I skipped the Defiance games KS for many reasons and I'm glad I did. On the other hand, Burrows and Badgers, MegaMInis Salvage Crew and others have fulfilled on time and with quality. And of course you have to be willing to wait if something takes longer. I've no doubt I'll get my figs, but I'm not at all surprised that my RAFM Airship figs are going to
Getting back to Mantic, I'm open to the possibility of participating in future KS's, but I've got enough figs that buying in BIG is unlikely and I refuse to pay their shipping price for a rulebook pledge anymore, so the chance I'll do future Mantic KS's is fairly low.
-
Oooh!
Your Warpath Wave 1 Pledge has been Dispatched!
Not quite sure any more if I actually have anything left to Wave 2, but I think not 8)
Regarding shipping, it looks like several British KS projects have either been hit by some kind of general postage pricing hike or else they've just up and decided to charge p&p through the nose. Unpleasant either way.
-
Mantic still planning to do the skirmish "Firefight" game? I can envision a nifty Pathfinders v. Vermyn (or Plague) type brawl.
-
Mantic still planning to do the skirmish "Firefight" game? I can envision a nifty Pathfinders v. Vermyn (or Plague) type brawl.
I backed Warpath at the £1 pledge level and then didn't add anything on in the end. I've just had the pdfs and Firefight is there as a separate set of rules. I haven't looked through that yet but the main game look interesting. Reminds me a bit of the old GW Epic game in its abstraction.
-
Thanks Sir Theo.
Not like I don't have plenty of stuff already.
-
Mantic still planning to do the skirmish "Firefight" game? I can envision a nifty Pathfinders v. Vermyn (or Plague) type brawl.
The pledge for rulebooks comes with Warpath (company level and above) rulebook, Firefight (Platoon Skirmish) rulebook and a sourcebook.
-
Hey - it arrived! Lovely rulebooks in a slipcase, looks very classy.
And, mirabile dictu, we even get the novel this time!
-
Just got mine.
The production values are really high! Even a bit better than Kings of War and defintiely up there with the rest of the big-name games.
I am a smidge worried that they may have a bit over-complicated the simplicity that I love about Mantic games. Also, I HATE that you need special dice (which are arriving in a different shippment??) to do your special activations.
However, it still seems ALOT more rules-lite than it's competititors and I'm really looking forward to trying it out. If I can get my club interested it will be a major impetus to finish up my Squat army.
-
Just a quick question - is the dropship already available to the KS backers? Or is it still in production?
I should have backed this KS and the Star Saga one but didn't do it :(
-
Also, I HATE that you need special dice (which are arriving in a different shippment??)
I got my dice and token sets with the books, eilif - best to drop Mantic a line?
-
I got my dice and token sets with the books, eilif - best to drop Mantic a line?
Me too - better check.
-
I got my dice and token sets with the books, eilif - best to drop Mantic a line?
Oh funkadoodle! I HATE dealing with Mantic's customer service parts replacement, It SUCKS! After trying to get missing parts from the First Deadzone kickstarter 3 separate times, (each time they said they'd send them and I got bupkis) I just gave up and said I'd never order minis in a Mantic kickstarter again. Now I've got to go wade through that poopfield again....
EDIT: Dice and counters just arrived today in a separate box. So glad I won't have to deal with Mantic CS!!!
-
My 4 x 5 Asterian Infantry set arrived yesterday. Just by looking at the sprues they seem pretty decent set all in all. The only gripe I can think of ATM is that I would've preferred separate legs and torsos for easier poseability. Despite the 100% p&p on top, I think it was a reasonable deal at ca. US$1.67 per trooper.
-
Any idea when the vehicles will be available to the public?
Salcor
-
Hey has anyone got their PDF rulebooks yet? I pledged for them, but they do not seem to have materialised in my inbox. :(
-
@ Salcor:
I'd expect the Enforcer flier to be released in a couple of months perhaps (as they have already gone out to KS backers), and the other vehicles will follow after Mantic have finished making some and shipping them out to backers!
@ Hat Guy:
They were out about a month ago - maybe send Mantic customer service an email?
-
Mantic sorted me out pretty quick, thanks for the heads-up, Major. :D
-
Any idea when the vehicles will be available to the public?
Salcor
Last KS update said April for general release (and for the GSP, GSCP, ah heck, the "not guardsman" too)
-
I went into this pretty heavily and just received my delivery last week. I'm actually, for once, pretty impressed with the quality of the Mantic models. Particularly excited to get the GCPS models assembled.
Surprisingly, I've heard very little chatter online about this game so far.
-
I received my order this week as well. I am very happy with the new toys I have received and the books are very pretty. Don't know if the game is for me or not, but I am happy to ogle the pretty pictures and start to assemble and paint (or at least plan too) more models than I need...
I know some (many?) have had their issues with Mantic, but I have, to this point, been pretty happy with the value of their kickstarters...
-
I went into this pretty heavily and just received my delivery last week. I'm actually, for once, pretty impressed with the quality of the Mantic models. Particularly excited to get the GCPS models assembled.
Surprisingly, I've heard very little chatter online about this game so far.
What's your take on the GCPS models? They look good in the renders but I haven't seen many in the "flesh" so to speak. I guess there weren't many people choosing that faction :\
-
I like them, just from the simple quick glance at the sprue. I'll try to give a better idea after I assemble a few this week.
-
The new Mantic plastic sprues are generally pretty nice. I am deliriously happy with them compared to the Restic rubbish! lol
That said, some of the details, and some of the weapon/equipment choices seems somewhat half-baked to me though - no thermal rifle on the main Enforcer sprue for instance, despite the thermal rifle being an Enforcer option since day 1 of the model range's existence.
Likewise, some of the accessories or parts almost appear to be a different scale to the rest of the model (for example, the loose Enforcer grenades being smaller then the ones loaded into the auxiliary grenade launchers under their guns on the same sprue).
Of the new plastics, the GCPS are probably the weakest for me currently. They are a little bobble-headed, and some of the details (like the clothing wrinkles) look a bit computer-generated rather than sculpted with thought. They also have relatively few options for things like special weapons and officer/specialist upgrades (just two special weapons, some pointing hands, and two backpacks with comms equipment on them).
That's not to say they're bad, but I would certainly expect a bit more from a sprue that ostensibly has to fill most of an army list on its own! :P
Anyway, between the late delivery of the parcels over the Christmas break, the Mantic Forums being down over the same period (they just got back online this week), and the limited opportunity for feedback on the rules, I don't think we'll be seeing much of Warpath "put in the wild" for a couple of months yet. :?
-
Thank for the feedback, Major_Gilbear and Napalm Backflip. I'll have to wait for April to get my hands on some of them.
-
Interesting comments. From pictures of the GPS they did look a bit bobble headed to me! I do t play Warpath and don't intend to but I notice Mantic are making them a faction in Deadzone. I was unsure whether to go with some thing like the Copplestone Future Wars troopers instead but you can't really beat Mantics pricing...
-
Honestly?
If you are willing to trim the necks a bit, I think that would help a fair bit.
If you are willing to use third-party heads, they would help a lot - same if you used some third-party support weapons (the little tracked weapons from Anvil Industry would be perfect for example).
The models are generally nice, and with a striking yet military scheme, they will look very good if you are willing to do that little bit extra yourself. However, without the extra effort, the do seem to lack something.
-
I should have backed this KS and the Star Saga one but didn't do it :(
One of the recent Mantic newsletters (https://manticblog.com/2016/12/28/new-year-new-game-deadzone/) said
Plus, if you missed out on the Star Saga Kickstarter, late pledges will be available in early 2017, so you can pick up some Nameless miniatures in preparation for your Deadzone faction.
I didn't back Star Saga either (took a struggle to avoid it, to be honest). Not sure if I'll cave this time ;D
-
I believe I saw some mention of GCPS Heavy / Special weapons coming in a later sprue, Wave 2 perhaps? I'll have to go back and check the updates.
-
zemjw - Yeah, in their latest newsletter they said they would open late-pledges for the Star Saga KS in January. Keeping my eyes open for it ;)
-
I believe I saw some mention of GCPS Heavy / Special weapons coming in a later sprue, Wave 2 perhaps? I'll have to go back and check the updates.
Heavy weapons are already available to backers who ordered then in Wave 1; you get one set of four different metal weapons (big laser, autocannon, mortar, and missile launcher) which makes two teams of two heavy weapons each. You also get a couple of legs, a torso, and some other minor accessories in the baggie of metal bits.
I think the original intention may have been to do these all in plastic, but throughout the KS they were always offered as metal only.
Special weapons are on the sprue already; you get a grenade launcher and a flamer on each 5-man sprue.
-
Heavy weapons are already available to backers who ordered then in Wave 1; you get one set of four different metal weapons (big laser, autocannon, mortar, and missile launcher) which makes two teams of two heavy weapons each. You also get a couple of legs, a torso, and some other minor accessories in the baggie of metal bits.
I think the original intention may have been to do these all in plastic, but throughout the KS they were always offered as metal only.
Special weapons are on the sprue already; you get a grenade launcher and a flamer on each 5-man sprue.
Huh! Good to know, thank you. I don't remember seeing them, but I had a box full of wayyyyyy too much stuff.