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Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Topic started by: affun on September 21, 2015, 07:11:39 PM

Title: Looking for a Squad based "fantasy skirmish" game
Post by: affun on September 21, 2015, 07:11:39 PM
Heya

As my 15 mm skirmish collection grows, I find myself wanting to put a few more of them on the table, as well as to take on some projects that wouldn't fit into the warband-skirmish mold: Small squads.

Thus, I am on the lookout for a ruleset that plays well with squads of 3-12 models, where 12 is large, and between 10 and 30 miniatures per side. Or something similar.
I know there is Saga, which I am considering, but I would prefer something a bit more "maleable". A strong contender is Lion Rampant, and the upcomming Dragon Rampant, which I very much enjoy, as well as God of Battles, though that game uses a a few too many miniatures per side.
There is also, of course, always the option of homebrewing, but before I go ahead and write up an entire game, I thought I'd have a look around.

So thats why I started this topic: Do any of you guys per chance know a ruleset that fits that mold? I'd be very interested to see if theres one I've missed.

Because topics without pictures are boring, here's a couple of old pics of my 15mm stuff:

(http://i.imgur.com/tSIyQSx.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/DgiM978.png)

Cheers!
Title: Re: Looking for a Squad based "fantasy skirmish" game
Post by: psullie on September 21, 2015, 09:13:07 PM
Lovely paint jobs, better than some of my 25mm.
Although  I haven't played it I heard good things about Bring of Battle/Epic Heroes http://www.brinkofbattle.com
Title: Re: Looking for a Squad based "fantasy skirmish" game
Post by: affun on September 21, 2015, 10:53:54 PM
Lovely paint jobs, better than some of my 25mm.
Although  I haven't played it I heard good things about Bring of Battle/Epic Heroes http://www.brinkofbattle.com

Thanks :)

Thats more in the single model skirmish, though. Did check it out at one point, not what I am looking for here. I am actually a bit surprised that I can't seem to find a ruleset that does this. I guess what I am looking for is sort of like a customizable Saga? Or Saga meets Warhammer Fantasy. The very static unit sizes of Saga always looked weird to me.
Title: Re: Looking for a Squad based "fantasy skirmish" game
Post by: Elbows on September 21, 2015, 11:01:23 PM
Lion Rampant and the upcoming Dragon Rampant could be done as squad based skirmish...but may be a little light on the rules if you stay in very small skirmishes.
Title: Re: Looking for a Squad based "fantasy skirmish" game
Post by: Grün on September 22, 2015, 06:18:51 AM
Take a look at NoQuarter:

https://noquarterwargames.wordpress.com/
Title: Re: Looking for a Squad based "fantasy skirmish" game
Post by: robh on September 22, 2015, 08:24:38 AM
Armies of Arcana and the Chipco Fantasy Rules! are both designed for mass skirmish gaming.
Both are well reviewed around the web
Title: Re: Looking for a Squad based "fantasy skirmish" game
Post by: Nord on September 22, 2015, 08:55:11 AM
You might want to look into Of Gods and Mortals. Squads are about the size you are looking for, though there is an emphasis on single figures (legends) and of course a deity leads your troops into battle - but you could always forego this if you wanted. The book contains sample lists (Norse, Egyptian and Greek, maybe Celtic too - it's been a while since I thumbed through). There are lots of abilities to apply to your troops to personalise them. Yet another Osprey book, cheap to buy, one that didn't seem to appeal as much as recent efforts.

I have to say that Saga is not that difficult to adapt - there's a post somewhere in this very forum, some chap has made a start on creating 4 boards for WHFB battles and is promising to make more. He's added in creatures, monsters, some magic too, looks pretty decent though I have yet to have a go. There are also boards around for LotR, though these seem to be name changes only rather than rewrites (Vikings = Uruk Hai, Normans = Rohan, that kind of thing).
Title: Re: Looking for a Squad based "fantasy skirmish" game
Post by: affun on September 22, 2015, 11:47:24 AM
You might want to look into Of Gods and Mortals. Squads are about the size you are looking for, though there is an emphasis on single figures (legends) and of course a deity leads your troops into battle - but you could always forego this if you wanted. The book contains sample lists (Norse, Egyptian and Greek, maybe Celtic too - it's been a while since I thumbed through). There are lots of abilities to apply to your troops to personalise them. Yet another Osprey book, cheap to buy, one that didn't seem to appeal as much as recent efforts.

I have to say that Saga is not that difficult to adapt - there's a post somewhere in this very forum, some chap has made a start on creating 4 boards for WHFB battles and is promising to make more. He's added in creatures, monsters, some magic too, looks pretty decent though I have yet to have a go. There are also boards around for LotR, though these seem to be name changes only rather than rewrites (Vikings = Uruk Hai, Normans = Rohan, that kind of thing).

I had completely forgotten about oGaM - Its as you say; it doesn't get that much mention (though still a bit). I think I even jotted it down for potentially fitting a thing like this. And I am a pretty big Ganesha fan. Buying it either now or the first to have a look.
I do definitely want to play Saga at some point, its just not entirely the thing I want for this project. That will be with proper vikings (I am a scandinavian, yet I do not posses a viking army. That is a disgrace, in a way).

Take a look at NoQuarter:

https://noquarterwargames.wordpress.com/

Looks interesting. Taking a look. I haven't ever heard of it, though.

Armies of Arcana and the Chipco Fantasy Rules! are both designed for mass skirmish gaming.
Both are well reviewed around the web

Seems bnice enough, but they are a bit too Warhammer Fantasy like - focussing on line battles, where I am looking for something more fluid. Thanks for the suggestion though. Jotting these down for when my 15mm collection grows to next stage in the future :P

***

Thanks for the suggestions and comments y'all. Very helpful.
Title: Re: Looking for a Squad based "fantasy skirmish" game
Post by: emosbur on September 22, 2015, 11:51:45 AM
I am partial to Dux Britanniarum. Is for dark ages campaigns, but you can adapt it to fantasy.
Title: Re: Looking for a Squad based "fantasy skirmish" game
Post by: Argonor on September 22, 2015, 12:05:59 PM
I think the main problem with fantasy in this respect is the vastness of different races, and weapons/armour types to be covered to get that feel of 'we fight in units, but we each have our own special flavour' for really small 'units' to feel different than playing a battle game with larger units.

If you want to play scenario-driven (and don't care squat about the points), I think you could use a ruleset like GoB (just ditch the 'last 4 models run away' rule), as the unit strength/weakness is covered buy the number of models in the unit, so smaller units just roll less dice (and you can have 'elite' models counting as 2 or more dice), but if you want to use a balanced system, my money would be on SAGA, as you can have units of 4-12 (buying models in 4, 8 or 12 man blocks), and I guess you could easily use the 'reduced models' principle that is going to be in Dragon Rampant (fewer models, but with a number of HP totalling up to the full amount for a 'point' of this troop type) for that, too.

I intend to get Dragon Rampant (and use it without the turnover rule), but still a couple of months away it does not cater for your needs right now...  ;)
Title: Re: Looking for a Squad based "fantasy skirmish" game
Post by: Hobgoblin on September 22, 2015, 12:14:14 PM
I had completely forgotten about oGaM - Its as you say; it doesn't get that much mention (though still a bit). I think I even jotted it down for potentially fitting a thing like this. And I am a pretty big Ganesha fan.

Just a thought, but have you seen Ganesha's Swatters rules? They're sci-fi, but would be easily adapted for fantasy. Squads move on CDs (or equivalent bases), with casualties taken off as necessary. There are quite an array of alien types that could be readily fitted to fantasy monsters. It's designed for 20 to 50 miniatures a side. It was also designed with 15mm in mind.
Title: Re: Looking for a Squad based "fantasy skirmish" game
Post by: Hobgoblin on September 22, 2015, 12:16:49 PM
Just a thought, but have you seen Ganesha's Swatters rules? They're sci-fi, but would be easily adapted for fantasy. Squads move on CDs (or equivalent bases), with casualties taken off as necessary. There is quite an array of alien types that could be readily fitted to fantasy monsters. It's designed for 20 to 50 miniatures a side. It was also designed with 15mm in mind.
Title: Re: Looking for a Squad based "fantasy skirmish" game
Post by: Vermis on September 22, 2015, 01:19:22 PM
Armies of Arcana and the Chipco Fantasy Rules! are both designed for mass skirmish gaming.
Both are well reviewed around the web

Last I saw the Chipco site was shuttered, with no indication of what was happening with Fantasy Rules or where it was going. Is it still around in some readily-available form?
Title: Re: Looking for a Squad based "fantasy skirmish" game
Post by: affun on September 22, 2015, 01:22:13 PM
I think the main problem with fantasy in this respect is the vastness of different races, and weapons/armour types to be covered to get that feel of 'we fight in units, but we each have our own special flavour' for really small 'units' to feel different than playing a battle game with larger units.

If you want to play scenario-driven (and don't care squat about the points), I think you could use a ruleset like GoB (just ditch the 'last 4 models run away' rule), as the unit strength/weakness is covered buy the number of models in the unit, so smaller units just roll less dice (and you can have 'elite' models counting as 2 or more dice), but if you want to use a balanced system, my money would be on SAGA, as you can have units of 4-12 (buying models in 4, 8 or 12 man blocks), and I guess you could easily use the 'reduced models' principle that is going to be in Dragon Rampant (fewer models, but with a number of HP totalling up to the full amount for a 'point' of this troop type) for that, too.

I intend to get Dragon Rampant (and use it without the turnover rule), but still a couple of months away it does not cater for your needs right now...  ;)

Yeah, I agree. I find that it is a hard balance to achieve; just the right amount of "crunch" to make distinct troop types (and races) possible, but still not so much as to slow the game down. That is one of the things GW actually kinda got right in Warhammer Fantasy. I just completely despise the wast and unnecessary amount of dicerolls (to hit, to wound, armour save), but it gets tricky to have that variety of troop types in d6 with out it.
Also, there's a lot of other clunky aspects of it, but we have a thread for that down in the general section  ::)

I am looking at Saga now - I can actually see it work as you say. Certainly intrigued. I just can't shake the feeling that I'd rather game it with proper vikings. I should propably just give it a whirl, though. Monsters as "4 wound" hearthguard, and so on.
That might also be an excuse to grab some copplestone 15mm  :P

Just a thought, but have you seen Ganesha's Swatters rules? They're sci-fi, but would be easily adapted for fantasy. Squads move on CDs (or equivalent bases), with casualties taken off as necessary. There are quite an array of alien types that could be readily fitted to fantasy monsters. It's designed for 20 to 50 miniatures a side. It was also designed with 15mm in mind.

I just ordered Of Gods and Mortals, as I was tricked by amazons 1-click-buy scheme. Just wanted to check how much I'd cost after shipping, but then it said that it was on its way. Im not entirely enthused by swatters, with the awkward style basing, but that might be possible to get around if the core is solid. Will certainly keep in mind.

I think one of my problems is that I just enjoy collecting rule-sets too much  ;D
Title: Re: Looking for a Squad based "fantasy skirmish" game
Post by: mdauben on September 22, 2015, 03:35:00 PM
Thus, I am on the lookout for a ruleset that plays well with squads of 3-12 models, where 12 is large, and between 10 and 30 miniatures per side.
Have you looked at GW's Lord of the Rings/The Hobbit Stategy Battle Game?  It is organized into groups (warbands) of up to 12 warriors, each of which must be lead by a "hero" (named or generic).  It can handle anything from just 2-3 heroes alone, up to 30-50 warriors plus their associated heroes with ease.  Much larger than that and I find it starts to slow down with just one player per side, but if you are determiend it still works for even larger forces.

Its obviously written for the Middle-Earth venue, but there are enough different troop types in the game that you can probably find one that comes close to your conception of any fantasy race.  
Title: Re: Looking for a Squad based "fantasy skirmish" game
Post by: affun on September 22, 2015, 03:51:41 PM
Have you looked at GW's Lord of the Rings/The Hobbit Stategy Battle Game?  It is organized into groups (warbands) of up to 12 warriors, each of which must be lead by a "hero" (named or generic).  It can handle anything from just 2-3 heroes alone, up to 30-50 warriors plus their associated heroes with ease.  Much larger than that and I find it starts to slow down with just one player per side, but if you are determiend it still works for even larger forces.

Its obviously written for the Middle-Earth venue, but there are enough different troop types in the game that you can probably find one that comes close to your conception of any fantasy race.  

I actually enjoy those rules a LOT, but prefer the pre-hobbit pre-warband version: Cleaner design. I find it gets a bit fiddly with bases less than 25mm though, with the 1" knockback and 1" zone of control being easier to play as a base width.
Am considering it, though. Its a nice set of rules thats sadly undersued and looked down upon due to the license by a lot of people.
Title: Re: Looking for a Squad based "fantasy skirmish" game
Post by: mdauben on September 22, 2015, 08:04:56 PM
I actually enjoy those rules a LOT, but prefer the pre-hobbit pre-warband version: Cleaner design.
I agree to an extent about pre-Hobbit.  I'm not sure the changes in the Hobbit rulebook really did anything to improve the game, rather than just adding additional complications.  I don't recall exactly when the warband rules were added, but I do like that they require you to include a minimum number of heroes in your list.  Still, its not important enough to me to refuse to play without them.   

Quote
I find it gets a bit fiddly with bases less than 25mm though, with the 1" knockback and 1" zone of control being easier to play as a base width.
Yeah, I can see how that would cause problems.  I suppose you could reduce the ranges to match the smaller figures, but that would require you to refigure all the movement, shooting, influence, etc. ranges in the game.


Title: Re: Looking for a Squad based "fantasy skirmish" game
Post by: affun on September 22, 2015, 08:22:52 PM
I agree to an extent about pre-Hobbit.  I'm not sure the changes in the Hobbit rulebook really did anything to improve the game, rather than just adding additional complications.  I don't recall exactly when the warband rules were added, but I do like that they require you to include a minimum number of heroes in your list.  Still, its not important enough to me to refuse to play without them.   

True. Warband rules add some structure as well, and it is admittedly pretty cool in a project sense, as you can model and paint individual warbands as units, with a centerpiece leader/hero to tie them together.

It is a severely underplayed system, at any rate. I am thinking of using it for Ancients skirmish and small battles. I actually base most of my larger fantasy stuff with SBG in mind, even though its been waaaay too long since I played it.

Yeah, I can see how that would cause problems.  I suppose you could reduce the ranges to match the smaller figures, but that would require you to refigure all the movement, shooting, influence, etc. ranges in the game.

A quick fix would be to just use their cm measurements, as my basing currently is 20mm washers. Or just refigure the knockback distance to being 1 basewidth, regardless of base size. Still, theres a lot of showing miniatures back and forth in the game, and it felt quite fiddly in some of the testgames I tried. (I actually have a AAR of an attempt somewhere in my painting log)

For now I am looking at Saga, having allready made a 4 point warband out of the orcs I have lying around. Grabbing some pics of that tomorrow, when there is enough light.



Title: Re: Looking for a Squad based "fantasy skirmish" game
Post by: Argonor on September 22, 2015, 10:11:58 PM
For now I am looking at Saga, having allready made a 4 point warband out of the orcs I have lying around. Grabbing some pics of that tomorrow, when there is enough light.

Just remembered: There's a guy on here that has made (free) fantasy rules for SAGA:

http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=81709.0

And there are some fan-made Middle-Earth battleboards out there, too (I have them, somewhere on my harddrive, should you need them).
Title: Re: Looking for a Squad based "fantasy skirmish" game
Post by: Napalm Backflip on September 23, 2015, 02:02:26 PM
I've got far too many miniatures rulesets floating around my game room and hard drive. Here's what I've seen that fits the fantasy skirmish bill. Some I've played, some I haven't, but hopefully this helps in some small way.

Ares - 'Stat your own model' skirmish
Brink of Battle - 'Stat your own model' skirmish, multi-genre
Bushido - Eastern themed fantasy skirmish
Darklands
Fantacide
Goalsystem Delves - RPG / Minis hybrid
Godslayer
Iron & Honor
Mordheim - A classic. Tons of free material online
No Quarter
Of Gods and Mortals
Reaper Warlord - Tremendously underrated. Great system
Savage Worlds Showdown
Song of Blades and Heroes
Wrath of Kings - a little bit more on the massive side of skirmish, but fantastic system and very characterful models
Title: Re: Looking for a Squad based "fantasy skirmish" game
Post by: DragonReborn on September 23, 2015, 02:22:14 PM
Hi there, from what you are saying it would seem that Bladestorm almost perfectly fits the bill, too.

The system allows the construction of individual heroes and monsters that can also be organized in units. You can attach leaders to a unit or have individual heroes running around. The system would also lend itself to having an adventuring party face a bunch of monsters in a campaign setting. Each miniature has a card with it's values. Units have all combatants on a single card.

Bladestorm knows spells and maneuvers in it's optional rules. Especially maneuvers are great fun.

If you are interested in being part of a project: We're currently in the process of carving version 2.0 out of the block. This will see the introduction of an experience point system. Since every creature you defeat carries a point value, you'll earn experience from it which in turn you can spend on improving your heroes.

What's Bladestorm's USP?

One dice roll decides if you hit and the amount of damage you deal.
Title: Re: Looking for a Squad based "fantasy skirmish" game
Post by: joshuaslater on September 23, 2015, 02:50:14 PM
Reaper's Warlord game.  You'd have to convert inches down to centimeters, but it could work.
Title: Re: Looking for a Squad based "fantasy skirmish" game
Post by: mdauben on September 25, 2015, 03:50:20 PM
For now I am looking at Saga, having allready made a 4 point warband out of the orcs I have lying around. Grabbing some pics of that tomorrow, when there is enough light.
I've heard a lot of good things about Saga, and there are some people in my local group who are playing.  I've been trying to hook up with one of them to get a test game in but our schedules have not meshed yet. 
Title: Re: Looking for a Squad based "fantasy skirmish" game
Post by: Polkovnik on September 29, 2015, 12:20:03 PM
I am on the lookout for a ruleset that plays well with squads of 3-12 models, where 12 is large, and between 10 and 30 miniatures per side.

So thats why I started this topic: Do any of you guys per chance know a ruleset that fits that mold? I'd be very interested to see if theres one I've missed.

I am currently working on something exactly like what you are looking for - a unit-based large skirmish set of rules for fantasy and historical battles. PM me if you are interested in playtesting.

http://polkovnik.moonfruit.com/
Title: Re: Looking for a Squad based "fantasy skirmish" game
Post by: Hobgoblin on October 06, 2015, 11:08:02 AM
I played a game of Lion Rampant at the weekend with the kids and was reminded of this thread. We were using the Dragon Rampant rules that Dan has discussed on his blog (especially strength points), and the game worked terrifically well.

We played with goblins on one side and reptiles on the other. The goblins had 43 models in total, and the reptiles just 12 (but all but one of their units were reduced-model monstrosities: dinosaurs and the like. Anyway, it worked extremely well at around the model count you're looking for. The book-keeping with the reduced-model units was sufficiently light that the seven-year-old in charge of the reptiles could manage it easily by himself.

I think the way that combat works in LR/DR - with "clashes" rather than scrums - is particularly suitable for a squad-level skirmish. It gives a nice feel of nervous soldiers as much concerned with their own preservation as with killing the enemy. And the wild-charge rules and the interactions of different troop types with terrain are tremendous.