Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Conflicts that came in from the Cold => Topic started by: CarlLeyland on 18 November 2015, 10:59:32 PM
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Hi Chaps,
This forum seems like a safe place to ask a few questions that may get me flamed (is that the term?) elsewhere.
I remember as a child having Airfix kits but especially one piece castings that were actually pretty good...I now need/desire the Centurion and the 25 Pdr.
Can anyone actually remember these vintage "kits" and did they actually exist? If they did can anyone tell me what they were called? I have been searching for some time on the auction sites but they never seem to appear...
Also is the Centurion suitable for Rhodesia? I believe that the 25 Pdr was used there but what towed it? Was it the Quad?
Sorry to ask so many questions...I think only members of a certain age will be able to answer some of them!
Once these have been sorted I will have plenty more....
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Airfix not only did 1/72 kits of both of these, but also produced them as one piece models in polythene. They are no longer available, but some diligent searching on e-bay occasionally turns them up. But be warned, they can go for good money. In that one piece polythene range they also produced an American Patton tank, a German Panther, a Russian T34, a US M113 APC, a US truck and a self propelled gun. I have seen them on e-bay recently. Hope that helps.
Just found these, http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JOB-LOT-5-AIRFIX-POLY-TANKS-LANDING-CRAFT-AND-SPARES-FOR-BASE-GUNS-BUNKERS-ETC-/111822487136?hash=item1a0923be60:g:u3MAAOSwMTZWRLww
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WWII-Airfix-Poly-Centuirion-Tank-Painted-ok-condition-A500-/371468044051?hash=item567d388713:g:F6IAAOSwo0JWJibT
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PATTON-TANK-AIRFIX-POLY-SOFT-PLASTIC-1-72-HO-/181929532508?hash=item2a5bd85c5c:g:DTUAAOSwEeFVAqFJ
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Just type in Airfix poly tanks. to search on e bay.
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The Centurion was not used in Rhodesia,they later on had 8x T-55's,courtesy of South Africa. Now South Africa had their version ,called the Olifant. ,made by S&S models . Rhodesia had Ferrets -AML 90's and 60's and a multitude of cool vehicles ,most available thru S&Smodels. the picture is a Olifant done by Ashley Straw.
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Hey thanks for the replies Chaps this is good stuff!
Poly is the magic word! I have looked for these for ages but just kept getting the kits....and your right Trooper-bloody hell it's cheaper to buy a new version!! I wonder why they are so expensive?
I mistook the Olifont for a Centurion, is it a derivative? I really must read more about this conflict...I had no idea they had T55 s. It will be fun to have a go at some of the vehicles but I will have to pay Amazon a visit first to gather the information I need
Thanks again for the help-I have a tab open looking in shock at Airfix poly tanks!
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I suspect it's their rarity... they had no value at the time, so they tended to get tossed when kids grew up. I used to prefer buying the kits to play with rather than the poly ones.
The Olifant is indeed a derivative of the Centurion, albeit upgraded in a 'similar manner' to the Israeli Sho't (it's actually virtually the same mod kit). Until that mod was completed the SADF wouldn't deploy tanks in Angola (they also had a large number of Saracen APCs which were never used too, except those loaned to the police for IS) and when they did it was only because the Eland couldn't match the T-62s that arrived late in the conflict.
As for Bush Wars in general, tanks aren't very much at home in them. The terrain is very hard on vehicles full stop and wheeled vehicles were more maintenance-friendly than tracked ones. Changing wheels, axles and drive-shafts is far easier than... well where do you start with a tracked vehicle? It's not like you can just jack it up and go to work on it... you need a mobile workshop unit and more supplies for them and so-on...
;)
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You are certainly right about the plastics just being tossed away Arlequín! I have no idea what happened to mine though I am sure that I had some 25 Pdrs which are nowhere to be found now.
The lack of tanks is not a bad thing and I can understand the use of wheeled vehicles-I cant wait to find out what was used by both sides and I have ordered a few Ospreys to get up to speed. Having seen the Scorpions (?) painted by Ash I now need to own some!
I look forward to Armourfast producing more modern vehicles as I am no military modeller....
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Well if you don't like making kits then there are quite a few die casts available of Centurion tanks in a variety of Marks. If you look for the Amercom ones or those originally sold with magazines like Fabbri on Ebay they will work out a lot cheaper than collectable Airfix toys. IIRC Hobby Master does a 25pdr and limber.
Actually for the Airfix 25 pdr kit you don't need to be a modelling genius or especially patient. The kit of the gun itself only comes to about half a dozen parts IIRC.
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Thanks Carlos, I have a Fabri T55 but I have never heard of the company who does the 25 Pdr...I will have a look for them. Even a dozen parts would have me almost gluing my fingers together! Seriously though the Airfix kit seems very small to me?
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Seriously though the Airfix kit seems very small to me?
The old Airfix military kits were 1/76 scale, so are indeed a bit on the small side, especially if placed next to large 20mm figures. The ones which actually originated with Airfix showed their age even by the early 90s, and I would think twice about getting many of these - but the lorries are decent enough, mind. In particular, Airfix vinyl tracks are a nightmare.
The various Land Rovers and armoured cars under the Airfix brand are actually by a long-gone model company called "JB Models". I've got a couple of these for my Not-Rhodesians, and they work well with the Underfire figures, IMHO. Very robust construction, and very well suited for wargaming purposes - more so than for the actual scale modeller, but that's a boon for the likes of us.
I would second the suggestion for the diecasts. I've got one of the Altaya 1/72 Centurions, and it is rather robust (except for the sprocket mount, I had to pin them), chunky with the right amount of detail, and was reasonably-priced as well (I think I paid 10 Euros, still boxed with the magazine at a car boot sale - well worth the money).
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Wow! So much has changed Chris...? Are Airfix still an independent company?
Diecast seems to be the way forward and I will try to buy a couple of BTR 60/80s for no other reason than they are the coolest looking vehicle ever.
As for Airfix being 1/76...? I had no idea at all but the guns just look out of sorts. I was hoping to source some landrovers from Grubby tanks?
Thanks for all the help Chaps-who would have thought the powerhouse of modolling would be owned/bought out by someone else....?
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Carl, there are plenty of good diecasts out there that would be usable, and many come up on e bay and not all for silly money. A tip with shopping there for wargames toys, avoid those that are boxed or described as Mint in Box, the collectors fight for those and push the price up to crazy levels. Go for battle (play) damaged where possible, usually a quick paint job will sort them out. And when searching always tick the little box that says "include description" sometime they are not always listed properly. Forces of Valour, and Dragon are two companies that have goodies you might like, as well as those diecasts from magazine collections like Del Prado etc. But watch out for the collectors, they fight real dirty when bidding. Good luck.
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Thanks for the tips Trooper! I have never heard of either Forces of Valour or Dragon so I will do a search....the only two die casts I have are a T 55 and a Bradley both from Fabbri. I have recently stripped and repainted some (very) old Lesney cars for civilian vehicles which turned out OK.
You are right about collectors! I have tried several times to buy an Alouette helicoptor but lost in the last minute! Buy it now is the way I have been searching lately.
Can I ask do people generally strip their die cast or just paint over it?
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Can I ask do people generally strip their die cast or just paint over it?
Depends on their state. I use the Oxford Die Cast 1/76 range for civvie vehicles pretty much straight from the box with possibly some weathering, if I feel like it. I repainted a Bedford bus of theirs and just primered and painted over the paintjob, no loss of detail. If it's an old piece, I usually strip it, especially if the paint is chipped too much.
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I never thought of Oxford I will have a look at their catalogue. I am pretty much the same as regards older models because of the inevitable damage. An old bus for Africa made my list as I read your post...damn it this site expands your horizons but empties your pockets! :D
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I never thought of Oxford I will have a look at their catalogue.
I find Oxford extremely good value for money, especially since I've found a specialist model railway store that doesn't rip you off on the exchange rate.
Here are a couple of my Oxford ones, repainted and straight from the box vehicles both:
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg236/Christian_S_1979/Modelling%20and%20Miniatures/African%20ImagiNations/BEDFORD_BUS_zps317d7fd1.jpg)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg236/Christian_S_1979/Modelling%20and%20Miniatures/African%20ImagiNations/CIVILIAN_VEHICLES_1_zpsf435831e.jpg)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg236/Christian_S_1979/Modelling%20and%20Miniatures/African%20ImagiNations/TEST_SETUP_2_zps8768351e.jpg)
(repainted minibus on the right)
Very much recommended.
I've also got some shots of the Airfix/JB Models kits in my Zambwana project thread if you care to wade through my drivel.
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=50846.0
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OMG Chris your stuff is (nearly swore) awesome......cant describe it without sonding like a teenager sorry!
Amazing work! Those buses are exactly what I was thinking of. What are the armoured cars in the last pic? Saracens? And by god yes I will now look at your posts!
Certainly yourself and the Ash chap have world class collections
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If you are still after a 20mm 25lb'er, have a look at Empress:
http://www.empressminiatures.com/userimages/procart81.htm
For a Rhodesian artillery battery you'd probably want it towed by either a Crocodile or Puma MPV, in which case S&S is the place to go:
http://sandsmodelsshop.com/product/rhodesian-crocodile-apc/
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Thanks for the links Ash,
I did not know that Empress produced 20MM models but they are a bit rich for my blood unfortunately as I would need two of them. The Crocodile looks useful, I am surprised it was used as a prime mover for the gun....must have been hard to manoeuvre?
I would have imagined more British kit would have been available....seems we did not invest much into Rhodesia..?
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It was time and times which were the issue. Britain modernised its forces from 1958 and by extension the Commonwealth did likewise from the same time period. Rhodesia declared UDI before it was completed there (1964), so you end up with SLRs, L7 Brens, FN MAGs and the like for the small regular force and SMLEs, .303 Brens (plus a massive stock of .303 ammo) and Stens for everyone else.
They had Ferrets but never received any Saracens or Saladins (presuming they were supposed to get them at all that is) and Bedford troop carriers. 'Regional defence' was the Rhodesian (and previously the 'Union') mission, so heavy equipment was not envisaged originally by Commonwealth planners.
With South Africa being its main supplier (who also had suffered a British embargo and was forced to look elsewhere), it had to use what they used/loaned/sold and subject to their political whims. So R1 & R1HB, more MAGs... Eland armoured cars and Alouettes.
The Bedford RL was the artillery tractor for the 25pdr originally, so logically the Crocodile was needed as the MAPV when they needed to move around when things got worse.
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Thanks for this Arlequin, it is fascinating. I vaguely remember the news in the 70s....hard to believe that Mugabe was literally put into power....was it two elections before the right result? I could well be wrong because I have read nothing about the conflict-Ospreys Bush Wars is on the way so at least that will be a start.
Painting the 25 Pdrs will be fun
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Most definitely... I admit that everything I thought I knew about the war from being alive at the time and being somewhat interested, has been kicked into touch after delving deeper. Mugabe was indeed the peoples' choice though... even if you exclude the voter intimidation, a decade of successful propaganda efforts gave ZANLA enough of a majority within the majority to win the election.
If the Osprey whets your appetite, try THE RHODESIAN WAR by Paul Moorcroft and Peter McLaughlin. It's arguably the best primer going and at a modest price. Then of course there are the Africa@War (http://www.helion.co.uk/catalogsearch/advanced/result/?name=africa%40war&description=&short_description=&sku=&price%5Bfrom%5D=&price%5Bto%5D=&author=&publisher=&isbn=) series from 30° South/Helion, which are crammed with detail.
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Thanks again for the tips with the books, I will order the Rhodesian war title...it is odd but all the books that I have looked at have been eye wateringly expensive.