-
Gents,
Chain of Command:The Abyssinian War army lists go live!
Starting with an Introduction and sort of explanation about what’s in Chain of Command:The Abyssinian War, we discuss the various aspects of the period that need to be accounted for in the Interwar setting when using the rules. There’s a bit to cover and some notes for players to digest before wrapping their head around the way Interwar CoC works, which really is just like standard CoC but with some twists.
The Abyssinian War setting has enabled us to utilise WW1, SCW and WW2 concepts for Chain of Command all pulled together..so it’s a fairly ‘rich’ gaming environment. This post will lead the release of the upcoming 17 army lists that will cover all the forces of Italy, Ethiopia, Great Britain and France.
Players will be able to use these lists for historical clashes of The Abyssinian War or the counterfactual Abyssinian Crisis as explained on the TAC blog and elsewhere.
So, go find out what’s in store for all you interwar CoC players.
https://abyssiniancrisis.wordpress.com/2015/12/02/chain-of-command-the-abyssinian-war-introduction/
Cheers
Happy W
(https://abyssiniancrisis.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/screen-shot-2015-11-19-at-2-01-13-pm.png?w=357&h=498)
-
Thanks for all the continued efforts. I've got the Espana set and looking forward looking forward to seeing how you create an Abyssinian atmos
in CoC.
Crikey there's a lot of troop types and units to choose from.The only problem so far is determining which forces to do.
Italians obviously for starters. However which flavour to build. After that who knows. A conundrum. However a nice one.
-
Thanks for sharing. I am digging the all the attention that the Abyssinian has been getting as of late.
-
Gents,
The Italians are ready! Follow the link to download the Italian Regno Esercito and CCNN platoon force army list for Chain of Command.
Included in this release are the Specific Rules and Playsheet used for play.
The initial release details were given the TFL official treatment here so pop on over and have a read there as well.
http://toofatlardies.co.uk/blog/?p=5221
Godere!
https://abyssiniancrisis.wordpress.com/2015/12/03/chain-of-command-abyssinia-italians/
(https://abyssiniancrisis.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/image3.jpg?w=676&h=850)
-
Awesome! Even better than I was hoping for! Very professional looking too. Who the heck actually makes that damn Fiat 611 in 1/56 anyway?
Looking forward to seeing the rules. I am a little surprised (and delighted) that the Lardies approved air support, as when I suggested it for the Burma lists I received a bit of a lecture on how it didn't make sense given the scale of the game. But I haven't seen it yet, so perhaps it's abstracted in an acceptable way like with those. I certainly would like to be able to paint up a CR.20 and fly it over the table.
On a side note: I had to request permission to access the google docs. Please make them public or approve my request!
Very excited for all this! Maybe this will inspire Empress to finish off (or at least add to) their Abyssinia range? :)
~ Steve
-
Thanks axabrax :D
...nice to know your efforts are appreciated :-*
We put in Random Air Support in the SCW lists and it's equally valid for this period. The thing is it's relatively ineffective compared to the truly destructive nature of WW2 ground support aircraft so in this regard interwar air support is closer to light weight artillery fire...and probably why Rich has no issue with it.
Sorry about the download restriction - I forgot to put it on public sharing...I've changed it now so there should be no problem getting the lists and special rules and playsheet to go with it all.
...the Ascaris will be up next!
;)
-
Excellent, We're running a 1938 VBCW campaign set in the Horn of Africa so this set of articles and army list is very useful.
10/10
-
I'm pretty sure we can satisfy your British and Colonial appetites with what's to come. :)
-
Gents,
The next army list in the Chain of Command:Abyssinia series is released.
This time it is Italy’s venerable allies, the Regio Corpo Truppe Coloniali, the Eritrean and Arabo-Somali ascaris of East Africa. Get the list from the The Abyssinian Crisis blog.
https://abyssiniancrisis.wordpress.com/2015/12/05/chain-of-commandabyssinia-regio-corpo-truppe-coloniali/
Enjoy!
(https://abyssiniancrisis.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/ao-dessie-1936.jpg?w=1352&h=920)
-
Gents,
The next in the release of army lists for Chain of Command: The Abyssinian War is ready for download.
This time we take a look at Italy's mounted Ascari forces, the Penne di Falco and Zaptie Carabinieri troops, both of whom gave excellent service to their colonial masters.
You can grab the lists from The Abyssinian Crisis blog as usual.
Cheers
Happy
https://abyssiniancrisis.wordpress.com/wp-admin/post.php?post=1873&action=edit
(https://abyssiniancrisis.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/eritrean-cav.jpg?w=1352)
-
Gents,
The next army list starts to detail some of the tribal forces of The Abyssinian Crisis. There were long standing feuds and inter-tribal warfare amongst the Eritrean and Somalian tribes that inhabited the Horn of Africa. They fought as much amongst themselves as against their Ethiopian neighbours and many warriors flocked to the Italian colours to serve, but more likely, settle old scores.
These forces include, but are not limited to, the highly regarded Somalian Dubat forces, the opportunistic forces of Sultan Olol Dinle, notable Azebo Galla cavalrymen and the Spahis di Libya, led by the enigmatic Amedeo Guillet.
These warriors start to give a look at how Chain of Command:The Abyssinian War handles irregular forces which adds a distinctly colonial feel to the period and provides much variety for those Chain of Command players fielding otherwise conventional forces up to now.
Grab the Eritrean and Somali Irregulars army lists from here...
https://abyssiniancrisis.wordpress.com/2015/12/08/chain-of-commandabyssinia-eritrean-and-somali-irregulars/
(https://abyssiniancrisis.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/eritreanascaris35.jpg?w=676&h=520)
-
Love all of this! Very cool and interesting. I guess my only comment at this point is a practical one: you might think about some way to add a few of these troop types as support choices rather than separate army lists. Many of these troops will require conversions and my guess is that most of the players (at least in our group) will probably gravitate toward lists with better firepower and more variety (and less work.) It's much easier to add an exotic colonial squad to my pre-existing Italian, British, French force rather than buying and painting an entire platoon of new Askari.
Whereas, if you allowed a support squad of irregular scouts/cavalry they'd be much more likely to actually show up in a game rather than as an interesting historical document. We actually proposed something similar for the Axis in a Tunisia CoC campaign wherein--given the ad hoc nature of the battlefield, you could choose from a pool of Axis or captured allied equipment within historical limits. I'm sure it's not as realistic, but it's probably more fun to collect, paint, and play. YMMV. Part of the fun of historical gaming is always balancing playability with historical accuracy.
~ Steve
-
Cheers Steve!
By and large the more exotic troop types do appear as support choices in other lists (with some exceptions)... but there are always those few folks who want to be different and do indeed want to create a whole banda of Dubats or what have you. As we have the organisation details to produce them as 'support', it's not too difficult to do a full list for them.
The main problem with CoC in terms of mixing troop types though is that the core force is usually a platoon, within a company, within a battalion and so on, so usually there's enough going on in the parent force to exclude everything else. The odds of a 'foreign body' being on the same small part of the battlefield as the core platoon are pretty remote, the odds are heavily in favour of other units from within the parent body.
The Platoon Force Rating system supports this too and assumes additional units are of a similar type, or more importantly a similar experience class. So for example, if you field a platoon of 'regulars' and add a tribal group, that group is treated the same as the regulars, i.e. benefits from the same force morale and command dice etc. In WW2 it would be like having a platoon of British Paras and adding a squad of raw recruits... the recruits would suddenly become 'Paras' with the same morale etc... instead the Paras support comes from other elements of an airborne company/brigade/division which are of similar status and ability.
Some forces on the other hand do operate somewhat solo in small groups, often in conjunction with some diverse auxiliary elements, so these are the ones with the more colourful additions and special rules to enable the disparate types to work together.
:)
-
Hi axabrax,
Your comments and encouragement are always welcome - thanks. You make some very good points and not without good reason…and I must say, we have tilted toward allowing a little bit of spice in other lists just as you suggest, where historically justified. We take the ‘play the period’ part of the Lard mantra to heart and the lists are better for it IMHO. You must off course remember one very important point - you've only seen but 4 out of 17 army lists!! When we said we were going to deliver you the entire period that’s what we meant! :D By the end of it there will be so much choice your head will spin!
Arlequin is quite right in saying the allocation of too may 'add on' troops is somewhat less than historical and distorts the CoC core mechanic of a platoon force rating designation and how its troop quality and command dice effects game play. Arlequin's example of brit paras with a squad of raw recruits hits the nail on the head.
However, these are the wilds of a semi colonial African campaign and even the more conventional forces did and could have some local attachments at the platoon level. So these you will see pop up, but they will pop where historically appropriate, not just to make a 'game-able' list. You’ll note the Italians are the most regular and organised of all the European forces in theatre; they’d prepared long and hard and their multi faceted force structure reflects that i.e. they have few ‘local variations’ to their core army elements as they have organised colonial forces already in the form of the Askari and, in this case, Somali and Eritrean tribal forces.
Thus the Eritrean and Somali allies list is a good case in point. It emphasises the small Raggruppamento aspect of Italian doctrine by attaching, in this case, army elements to an irregular force platoon much as what happened in Graziani’s southern operations. This is why you see the ability for a Dubat platoon to be supported by Italian armour and air support, however the core force is still a Dubat platoon and not an Italian army platoon. Somali Dubats are not regular forces and there were battalions of them and they need to be represented as their own lister…like any other specific SCW or WW2 list would be.
To do otherwise essentially turns each list into the same list but with just slight trait variations if a player can always use the same force mix with only minor variation in troop types. What you end up with is the core platoon not truly reflecting what its make up and components are that make it unique. You can also end up with attached elements behaving unhistorically because of the way they ‘lean’ on another platoon types PFR ratings and command dice.
One key aspect of TAC was the usability of troops from other past projects. This was a key incentive in getting players to tinker with the many interesting ideas TAC has to offer. Thus a player that has Spanish Civil War CTV figures can use them as French North African Zouaves or Tirailleurs in winter dress or a player with Sudan forces from their 1885 war-game project can press these into the field using the Eritrean allies list so no new painted figures required. These lists allow you to play with all the historical force organisations but we don’t think you should have to go out and buy 60+ figures for every list. Having all the lists does however open up alot of double-duty use for other figures you might have and the CoC games will be like nothing you see in WW2 either.
For example, those new Perry Vichy and Senegalese French will cover a whole host of forces and serve you well in WW2…so with your existing collections the lists will provide you with historical variety. This is one reason why you’ll see the default condition for mounted forces being dismounted. Fielding an entire half squadron mounted is not usually within easy reach of many players, but you can if you want because historically they did! And if you take them mounted as a support list choice you can then dismount them and gain the cavalry deployment benefits..so you still end up using dismounted figures!
There is alot going on here in Ethiopia and to get the full sweep of the action with all these distinctive and diverse forces listers are needed to accurately reflect the historical vastness of the subject matter and forces at play. This is like all of WW2 on the Eastern Front in Chain of Command in one go! As I think I said in a previous post, there is a lister for everyone here. If you have nothing but Copplestone Somali warriors from a Mad Mullah campaign sitting in a box then you have a forces for this period and not an European in sight! They can be fielded against a guy who has collected Italian for the SCW or a mate with Italians from a WW2 North African army..and so on.
So fear not, as the lists get released you’ll start to see creeping into the British and French lists particularly the slightly more ad-hoc nature of their force deployments and local ally allegiances they need to field against the massive Italian army and their African allies. By the end of it you’ll have 17 lists and over 60+ pages of hard core data on the interwar period for conflict in Abyssinia..merry xmas indeed!
Happy W
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-lBtygfgBV7E/VmczBT0DG_I/AAAAAAAAGEY/YWmsN4bpHbc/s512-Ic42/Cunama%252520Warrior.jpg)
A Sudanese warrior facing off Gordon in Khartoum…not quite…likely his grandson. He is a Cunama Lowland Warrior from NW Ethiopia near the Sudan border who fought during the Italo-Ethiopian war c 1935….use those Sudan warriors straight out of the box!
-
Question do the Italian officer and ranking senior leader replace the senior leader if taken r count as separate models?
-
"Question do the Italian officer and ranking senior leader replace the senior leader if taken r count as separate models?"
Good question!
My feeling is that if you take a Ranking Senior Leader then he is in addition to the normal platoon structure. At a SL cost of 3 he is a high value addition to a platoon so his presence adds another layer of command for that big cost. That's how I envisage the costing and use of him to be...he's almost a personality figure.
Happy W
-
I see , I assume the italian officer choice is on the other hand more of an upgrade to the sciumbasci?
-
"I see , I assume the italian officer choice is on the other hand more of an upgrade to the sciumbasci?"
The Italian Officer rule says;
"ITALIAN OFFICER
Typically an Italian officer would lead an irregular group as its platoon leader (Sciumbasci). Therefore, if he is on-table he negates the Arrai! rule on a roll of 4, 5 or 6 if it comes into play. If off-table he fulfills the roll of an Adjutant."
Yes. I suppose that could've been explained a bit better. The Italian officer replaces the Eritrean/Somali Sciumbasci as the platoon leader as the description says. As platoon leader he fulfils all those normal roles but can also be an off-table adjutant and counter the Arrai! rule.
Now, the RSL I was confusing with another list I was working on - so I sent that last reply a bit half-cocked - let me recant :o
The RSL should be treated the same as the Italian officer i.e. "he negates the Arrai! rule on a roll of 4, 5 or 6 if it comes into play. If off-table he fulfills the roll of an Adjutant."...as well as becoming the sciumbasci of the platoon i.e. not an extra figure...essentially he is a platoon leader upgrade above the Italian officer choice.
That makes sense and would be reflecting a senior or well regarded RSL exerting the same kind of influence as the Italian Officer in charge of the platoon...he's just a bit better. As a RSL essentially gives you one more CI per turn and a slightly greater command range this is appropriate for his SL 3 cost as well as his two other attributes..
I'll make that clear in the list....nice pick up..a fresh pair of eyes really helps in this regard!
The lists will reflect;
ITALIAN OFFICER
Typically an Italian officer would lead an irregular group as its platoon leader (Sciumbasci), which this support choice allows him to become. As platoon leader, if he is on-table he negates the Arrai! rule on a roll of 4, 5 or 6 if it comes into play. If off-table he fulfills the roll of an Adjutant.
RANKING SENIOR LEADER
A Ranking Senior Leader could represent a senior officer such as an experienced Chief (Scium) or other senior officer or a notable Italian leader such as Amedeo Guillet leading the Spahis di Libya. He follows the same rules above as the Italian officer.
-
Gents,
In this post we introduce the main protagonist against the Italians, the Ethiopian forces led by emperor Haile Selassie, defenders of their homeland. Off course historically these were the two countries that fought the real Italo-Ethiopian War and thus the actual conflict can be gamed by using the Italian and Ethiopian list alone, the British and French being an addition as part of The Abyssinian Crisis counterfactual.
The Ethiopian forces are diverse. They embody true feudal warfare culture all the way through to the Imperial Guard as a modern European style force trained and organised by Belgium and Swedish military missions - there is a lot of new and interesting concepts for Chain of Command players in these Ethiopian lists…I hope players embrace game play with these diverse armies.
We shall start with the Ethiopian Chitet list, move onto the Mehal Sefari ‘organised’ forces and finally the Kebur Zabanga, the Ethiopian Imperial Guard. These lists will bring a new dimension to game play and provide many options for those wanting to try something different in their Chain of Command games.
As an aside - for those that are downloading and looking at these lists, any discussion or points of confusion that you feel need clarification would be appreciated. When constructing these lists sometimes only a fresh pair of eyes can see an obvious error or mistake and the TAC authors would appreciate that feedback.
So, to the Ethiopians…
https://abyssiniancrisis.wordpress.com/2015/12/10/chain-of-commandabyssinia-ethiopian-chitet/
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-6QwROCPYs6o/VmlGpTUyA5I/AAAAAAAAGEk/hfVL_QoBvrc/s800-Ic42/swearing-the-oath.jpg)
-
Gents,
The Mehal Sefari, literally "the one that camps at the center" are perhaps the most distinctive troops in Haile Selassie’s army. They have not the look of the European style Imperial Guard nor the tribal warriors of the powerful Rases, the Mehal Sefari was older than emperor himself, forming an important role in Ethiopian society. A significantly large force they were also to provide many recruits to the more professional and better equipped Imperial Guard battalions under the emperor's modernisation programme. Dressed in a blend of traditional dress and contemporary military style clothing they make for a unique looking Ethiopian soldier unlike others of their time.
The Mehal Sefari and Kebur Zabanga are closely related so it is convenient to discuss them both in one post. We provide some more detail and discussion behind the thinking when putting together the Chain of Command:Abyssinia army lists.
You can grab the list and read about the Mehal Sefari here.
http://wp.me/p6mUyQ-uH
Happy W
(https://abyssiniancrisis.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/screen-shot-2015-08-05-at-6-55-44-pm-png.jpg?w=676&h=545)
-
The Ethiopian Imperial Guard, Kebur Zabanga, was formed by a Belgian Military Mission in 1928 at Emperor Haile Selassie’s request. This was as much to secure his grip on power as it was to modernise his army. A subsequent Swedish military mission, along with Belgian Congo veterans, further aided in the development of the Imperial Guard making it arguably the preeminent African military force in the Horn of Africa before the arrival of the European interventionists.
Guardsmen were the cream of the warriors available for service, it being a great honour to serve the emperor. They were armed with magazine-fed Mauser rifles, smartly dressed and well disciplined and will surely give a good account of themselves in a capable Chain of Command player’s hands. Review the list careful as it has strengths and weaknesses, but above all , it should give any opponent plenty to contend with.
Chain of Command:Abyssinia Kebur Zabanga army list
http://wp.me/p6mUyQ-vQ
(https://abyssiniancrisis.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/ig2.jpg?w=1352&h=1094)
-
Gents,
The two historical armies of Italy and Ethiopia now have their army lists. With the British, we enter the realms of the counterfactual that is The Abyssinian Crisis. With that we now need to take a close look at the interwar army of Britain, most certainly a different beast to what you think.
Neither the army of the Great War nor the one you’re familiar with from France 1940, it reflected the move towards modernisation whilst still fulfilling its roles of colonial policing and 'small wars'. This list will provide info seldom found with ease on the internet so it should prove useful to anyone interested in the armies of Britain in the 1930s.
We start with the British infantry.
https://abyssiniancrisis.wordpress.com/2015/12/08/chain-of-commandabyssinia-british/
Happy W
(https://abyssiniancrisis.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/cameron-highalnders-1936-palestine.jpg?w=1352&h=968)
-
I was interested in yor mention of the 3pdr anti tank gun, have you found any images of this? I have a photo of a mystery a/t gun a children's Army Book of 1939 I was trying to identify a few months ago which looks like a bit of a lash up and similar to your description of the 3pdr - could I ask you for your source for it?
I am out and about all day and evening today but if I remember I will post the photo with the proper reference in the next day or two
-
British list is very cool. I see they get to take individual support squads of colonial scouts, both cavalry and infantry. I am jealous that the British get to do this in their infantry list but the Italians, who have more native East African colonial troops at their disposal than any European force in the theater, don't get to without fielding a separate platoon. I take it that it's historically accurate for a platoon of British infantry to have a single squad of colonial scouts but not accurate for the Italians?
-
I was interested in yor mention of the 3pdr anti tank gun, have you found any images of this?
It was your photo which sent me digging for more information. One of the advantages of a 'what-if' is that you can bend things slightly. I'm pretty confident that the weapon is the 'short' 3pdr as used in the Vickers 6-tonner and the carriage does look very much like a GS trailer axle with the bed removed.
Penetration of 25mm With APHE is given for a 3pdr MK.II on page 6 here: http://mr-home.staff.shef.ac.uk/hobbies/ww2pen3.pdf - although I think this is one of the guns fitted to the Mediums, not the 'export'.
This provided a little more detail: http://www.miniatures.de/anti-tank-weapons-british.html - but no sources were listed and some of the penetration values for some weapons seem inflated.
However 2/3 down the page he says; "The 47 mm L.41. 3 Pdr. was a towed anti-tank gun which was replaced in frontline use by the 2 Pdr. gun. However, the 3 Pdr. remained in service in 1940 for home invasion defence, and there is footage showing the weapon on maneuvers. The carriages of the 2 Pdr. and 3 Pdr. anti-tank guns were similar in appearance".
Personally I think he's getting confused with this;
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-2qi5k_sUc3E/VmxHkRv8B5I/AAAAAAAAV_s/aAI3get19xA/s600-Ic42/BS0886%252520-%2525206%252520Pounder%252520Gun%252520-%252520WW2-M.jpg)
Which is actually a QF 6 pounder L.23 (as used on WWI tanks and listed below the above comment on that link)... there was another 'rougher' version;
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-H7Et0OjGlvk/VmxGwTnWj0I/AAAAAAAAV_k/nxGCf0Eu1nU/s600-Ic42/BS0885%252520-%2525206%252520Pounder%252520Gun%252520-%252520WW2-M.jpg)
Make what you will of all that, but your photo looks exactly like a 3pdr tank gun, even down to the 'arm-pit' traverse. With the genuine purchase of French 25mms, the moth-balled 20mm Oerlikon Ls and the illusory 3pdr, there was a fair selection of anti-tank weapons to choose from. I've not researched the '6pdr', but I suspect it was a 1940 stop-gap, rather than an interwar idea.
British list is very cool. I see they get to take individual support squads of colonial scouts, both cavalry and infantry. I am jealous that the British get to do this in their infantry list but the Italians, who have more native East African colonial troops at their disposal than any European force in the theater, don't get to without fielding a separate platoon. I take it that it's historically accurate for a platoon of British infantry to have a single squad of colonial scouts but not accurate for the Italians?
Thanks! :)
It was a hard call to be honest and I confess we 'might' not have it right... we did our best. The British did however routinely use local guides in every campaign I'm aware of and had no integral reconnaissance elements in their infantry regiments at this point in time. The Italians however had their own Esploratori platoons.
If someone is dead-set on mixing Italians with their more exotic allies and auxiliaries, there really is no reason why you can't. We've presented our view and I really don't think adding a section or two of whatever you like will upset any reasonable opponent. Determining their support table slot would not be rocket science either.
As Burger King say "have it your way". :)
-
Thanks that's interesting. At the time of the Abyssinian Crisis official policy would still have been the best anti tank weapon is another tank so it is interesting to speculate what you can use. The same book has what looks very much like use in the UK of the Bofors 37mm, which I had only come across in British use in the Western Desert
Thanks
Clive
-
You're welcome.
1935 was right on the cusp of everything changing for the British. Not counting the increasing numbers of light tanks, there were only something like a hundred medium tanks in total, spread across three home battalions and the growing 6th Battalion in Egypt. With the Germans and Italians parading what seemed like hundreds of tanks, I expect there was 'a bit of a flap' to say the least.
The 2pdr was accepted into service in October 1935, if memory serves, and was intended originally to equip each infantry battalion with three weapons. I have no idea what the rate of production was, but it was going to take time. I think it was something in the region of 500 had been produced by September 3rd 1939; but by then they were no longer to be in the battalions, but in actual Anti-tank units.
For those interested, the gun Clive and myself were discussing is this one;
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll263/clivies/profile002_zpsllx59s2k.jpg)
and here's the gun as fitted to a Vickers E
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-gAKtbpEOacE/VnHCda5RFcI/AAAAAAAAWDY/SHwsghUAZ0E/s338-Ic42/Vickers%252520E.jpg)
-
...the next list chaps....
The British empire, and the very nature of the conflict in The Abyssinian Crisis, brought forth troops acclimated and best able to handle the conditions in Ethiopia. This involved the Askari forces of the empire, be they from British Somaliland, nearby Kenya or further afield in the Southern Sudan or beyond.
These diverse troops create an interesting array of forces for the British Chain of Command:Abyssinia player to choose from. The two main British Askari forces in The Abyssinian Crisis are the King’s African Rifles in Kenya and the Somali Camel Corps in British Somaliland. Both bordering colonies to Italian Somaliland and Southern Ethiopia.
This list can be used to depict King’s African Rifles and the Somali Camel Corps platoons in their various forms as well as any other ‘Askari’ formations (i.e. forces raised from the indigenous population, rather than Europeans) that players wish to use.
https://abyssiniancrisis.wordpress.com/2015/12/18/chain-of-commandabyssinia-british-askaris/
Cheers
Happy W
(https://abyssiniancrisis.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/sudan-defence-force.jpg?w=676&h=327)
-
At the time of the Abyssinian Crisis official policy would still have been the best anti tank weapon is another tank so it is interesting to speculate what you can use.
Well on the topic of speculation, the 1928 Edition of 'Section Leading' gives a battalion headquarters wing as having a No.2 Group which is labelled 'Anti-Tank Section', which is then modified to an 'Anti-Tank Group' as an edit.
I'm at a loss as to what the anti-tank weapons were that this unit could be serving. As the other three headquarters groups (the HQ itself, a combined AA/RP/maintenance group and the band) are roughly platoon-size, I think we are talking perhaps 16 - 24 men, rather than 8 or so. By extension similar units later are three weapon teams (AT Group 1936), or two sections of two weapons (MG Platoon), so I imagine we are talking a unit of similar size to these.
I know there were at least 20 or so Oerlikon/SEMAG 20mm autocannon bought for the 'Mobile Force' experiment in the late '20s, but I'm not aware of anything in the quantity needed to outfit all battalions... presuming there wasn't just an expectation of something which never actually appeared.
-
I know there should be something interesting about the time at which the anti tank role became an artillery responsibility rather than an infantry one but I would need to do a lot of digging through my frankly inadequate library to find anything. I am slightly obsessed with the Birch Gun but I haven't seen anything suggesting they were ever envisaged as having a tank destroyer type role (which I think they could have filled quite well). So I guess the question might be were there towed 3 pdr a/t guns. A/t artillery is conspicuous by its absence from all the late 20s and early to mid 30s Pathe stuff I have seen - everything else seems to be there, 18 pdrs and 3.7" howitzers with Carden Loyd tows. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence but it does suggest at the very least they were rare. There must be a source which covers this but I have been unable to find it.
-
It did occur to me that seeing one order for the 20mm did not necessarily mean it was the only order that was made... but as you say, surely these news reels would have featured one by accident at the very least if they were fairly common.
That being said, those few photos we do have appear to be of differing periods of time, given that the carriage for towing them varies from the type with the cast wheels with circular holes and those cast with a more 'spoke-like' appearance. Photo quality changes would also seem to indicate that they were used from the Late-20s to the Mid-30s too.
Joining the dots, where it was said that before mobilisation in 1938 Britain only had one and a half operational divisions in the UK, is it possible that the twenty or so Oerlikons were assigned to the units within them. Eight battalions is possible at three apiece.
Conjecture I know, but...
-
British Hussars - 1936
In 1935 the 8th Hussars were selected to be one of the three cavalry regiments in Egypt to be mechanised. They dutifully surrendered their horses to the remount depot following their last mounted parade on Armistice Day (11th November) 1935.
The plan was that the 8th Hussars would become a motorised cavalry regiment capable of keeping pace with other mechanised elements though insufficient vehicles were initially available to equip it properly.
Unfortunately only the 11th Hussars had vehicles, a collection of outdated Rolls Royce armoured cars. The 7th Hussars had not only surrendered their horses, but there were no light tanks with which to equip them. The 12th Lancers were dispatched from the UK however, along with their Lanchester 6x4 armoured cars so adding some punch to the British Light cavalry force in Egypt.
This list is a comprehensive and interesting combination of the many guises of the British Hussars in 1936 during The Abyssinian Crisis. There is alot in this list. It should provide for an interesting gaming force to use in Chain of Command:Abyssinia.
British 8th Hussars army lists
https://abyssiniancrisis.wordpress.com/2015/12/20/chain-of-commandabyssinia-hussars/
(https://abyssiniancrisis.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/8th-hussars-1936.jpg)
-
Well on the topic of speculation, the 1928 Edition of 'Section Leading' gives a battalion headquarters wing as having a No.2 Group which is labelled 'Anti-Tank Section', which is then modified to an 'Anti-Tank Group' as an edit.
I'm at a loss as to what the anti-tank weapons were that this unit could be serving. As the other three headquarters groups (the HQ itself, a combined AA/RP/maintenance group and the band) are roughly platoon-size, I think we are talking perhaps 16 - 24 men, rather than 8 or so. By extension similar units later are three weapon teams (AT Group 1936), or two sections of two weapons (MG Platoon), so I imagine we are talking a unit of similar size to these.
I know there were at least 20 or so Oerlikon/SEMAG 20mm autocannon bought for the 'Mobile Force' experiment in the late '20s, but I'm not aware of anything in the quantity needed to outfit all battalions... presuming there wasn't just an expectation of something which never actually appeared.
Jim
I have a copy of what I think is a print on demand book called British Anti-Tank warfare by John Plant. It mainly is concerened with WW11 but has some coverage of WW1 and interwar. I am reluctant to give it too much authority as I haven't seen it reviewed elsewhere, however it does have some interesting snippets of information:
He refers to a passage in the Purple Primer which stated how a "suitable combination of 6 pdr guns and anti-tank mines" backed up by 3" AA guns in the AT role could make various installations "secure against attack by armoured formations". While no notice seemed to have been paid to this it's interesting (a) by envisaging using AA guns in AT role pre Condor Legion and 88s in Spain and (2) mentioning 6 pdrs as AT guns - of course this doesn't mean they existed though as it could simply be an example of a suitable existing gun which could be converted.
(Interestingly he talks elsewhere of a British requirement of 360 degree traverse for at guns which must be what lumbered the 2pdr with its over engineered mount)
He cites Captain Kennedy in his This, Our Army of 1935 of a 1933 exercise where dug in field guns were used in the AT role
Thoughts on AT defence tended to rely on physical (often water) obstacles
He states that the 1926 Infantry Manual really put the entire onus of AT defence on the artillery, stating that the guns should be in the rear of obstacles and there should be tanks available for counter-attack. The 1931 edition accommodated the inclusion in a battalion of an anti-tank platoon of four guns. Plant says at this date the guns had not actually been issued and seven years would pass before this started (1938 - 2 pdrs).The importance was that the infantry were given responsibility for the first line of AT defence and the artillery for the second.
So no indication of any usable AT weapons in the period from around 1931-8. I have seen a mention of 100 3 pdr AT guns but I think that was in Wikipedia with no source given. It would be nice to think these were around and that the picture in the Wonder Book of Soldiers is one of these.You would have thought there wouldn't have been a picture of a one-off or protoype and I am encouraged that you think the gun is a three pounder. The presence of the index/census number does suggest it might be mounted on a stripped down trailer
It would also be nice to think there was a 6 pdr gun as in your photo but these are clearly 1939 or later, so you can't tell if they were a 1940 lash up or bringing out something earlier and obsolescent. The carriage seems to follow the 360 degree traverse rule
So it looks as though there may have been AT crews with no useful weapons, but if you wanted "what ifs" for gaming purposes you could try tracked Oerlikon 20mm, 3 pdr looking like the Wonder book of Soldiers photo, the 6 pdr like your photo, or even the 3" AA gun. So possibly a scratch building programme for Christmas, just from photos and no plans, so anything roughly looking like the pics could be ok.
The 3" is available of course, and also worth noting the Iraqi Army used 20mm Oerlikon AT guns in WW!! and at Habbaniyah.
I still think somewhere there should be an authoritative source stating what was available in this period, clearly there were some 20mms, possibly some 3 pdrs but we don't know for sure what they looked like, and less likely some 6 pdrs. or possibly nothing - if we can have aircraft carriers without aircraft for ten years in the 2010s I guess we could have had AT platoons without AT guns for seven years in the 1930s
-
I can find no fault in that summation Clive... indeed I can see the 'anti-tank group' as weapon-less and indeed in the 1934-41 period there are a lot of formations pretending they were something else; the 4th Hussars spring to mind, I guess it was hard to determine whether they were horse-less cavalry, or a tank-less tank regiment after they surrendered their mounts... it was two years before they received any vehicles and the remount depot had already passed the horses on.
I'm pretty sure (95%) that the gun in your photo is a 3pdr. The bolted cap for the recoil mechanism seems to have been replaced by a welded blank (or a screw cap?), so I wonder whether it was actually operational, or a dummy for training purposes. The bevelled muzzle profile is spot on for the 'short' 3pdr though.
The more complex of the two 6 pdrs actually looks like it's on one of the two types of 360° mounts for the 2 pdr (the Mk. I ?). I guess they had more mounts and 6 pdr barrels than they did 2 pdr barrels in those dark days of the latter half of 1940... although judging by the other photo, not as many mounts as 6 pdr guns.
Hopefully someone will come along with the answer at some future point... but for now it's maybe, might've and possibly. :)
-
...the last of the British army lists gents...
6th Battalion Royal Tank Corps was created by amalgamating, two of the RTC’s independent armoured car companies in 1934. ‘Armoured car company’ was a misnomer as only one unit actually had armoured cars, which were subsequently surrendered for re-deployment. The other company had Vickers Light Tanks Mk.II, which were to be the only vehicles with the battalion until late 1935.
The Abyssinian Crisis saw 6th RTC equipped with additional light tanks and the arrival of its Medium Tank Mk. IIs. The two companies of the battalion were now organised into mixed companies. Company headquarters consisted of a single Medium Tank for the company commander, a single Light Tank for the second in command and a reconnaissance section of two Carden-Loyd carriers, each mounting a Vickers gun and led by the adjutant. There were two light tank platoons, each of three light tanks and two medium platoons, each of two medium tanks.
Despite tentative experiments from the Late Twenties, there was no actual doctrine for combined arms in the British Army in 1935. No artillery observers were attached to tank units, nor were there any motorised infantry units in existence, let alone attached to tank units. When they were eventually attached, it was as ‘security’ units to allow re-fueling and re-armament and they were never meant to fight alongside them.
This list is specifically intended to form a wholly armoured force, as detailed in Big Chain of Command. This list is therefore somewhat different to the typical infantry-based list in Chain of Command, in that it is almost entirely composed of armoured vehicles.
Chain of Command British Royal Tank Corps army list
http://wp.me/p6mUyQ-w0
(https://abyssiniancrisis.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/british-rtc-egypt-1936-lr.jpg?w=676&h=489)
-
Gents,
With this post we commence the last army to be included in The Abyssinian Crisis - the French. France had a huge army in 1936 and many commitments in managing her vast overseas empire. From these troops were drawn the forces to serve in Abyssinia in 1936.
Zouaves, Chasseurs d’Afrique, Legionaries, Tirailleurs sénégalais, the list goes on. The Player collecting a force for the French in the interwar years in Africa will find plenty to choose from and will be provided many unique modelling or repurposing opportunities for the French forces.
Liberty, equality, fraternity...we bring you some xmas cheer with the French.
Happy W
https://abyssiniancrisis.wordpress.com/2015/12/24/chain-of-commandabyssinia-french-infantry/
(https://abyssiniancrisis.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/personnel-de-l-escadrille-de-la-cote-francaise-des-somalis.jpg?w=676&h=423)
-
Just had a full read-through of the lists: incredible work, Rolf & Jim! A huge amount of research and enthusiasm has clearly gone into these. Quite a few extra special rules too. I'm looking forward to trying them out in the new year. Wish this had all been around in 2009 when I started gaming Abyssinia; what a great resource.
Well done chaps.
-
"Just had a full read-through of the lists"
...that must have taken a while! :D
Thanks for your comments James, much appreciated. It's been a sold effort to try and track down the details as best we can but an enjoyable enlightening experience along the way....fun to!
We shall all look forward to seeing your collection back in action and make sure Scrivs takes a good many pics to post on his excellent blog - a great (best) source of inspiration for all Chain of Command players IMHO...
...it's been a while since we've seen a sold Italo-Ethiopaian battle reports posted and CoC-ified will be certainly interesting with experienced players at the helm. Naturally enough I'll be leaning into a few myself...KAR on the paint table!
Cheers
Happy W (R)
-
..the next list for the French takes in one of the three mounted formations depicted in Chain of Command:Abyssinia, this one being the French Spahis.
The role of cavalry in French doctrine was that of reconnaissance and maintaining security of the flank and rear of the infantry. Infantry divisions in France each had a groupe de reconnaissance de division d'infanterie (GRDI) and terminology aside these were simply half of a cavalry regiment. In colonial formations the Spahis and their semi-mechanised counterparts, the Chasseurs d’Afrique, fulfilled the same function and would also find their selves divided in like manner.
Grab the Chain of Command:Abyssinia French Spahis list from the Two Fat Lardies blog or directly from the The Abyssinian Crisis blog using the following link.
Chain of Command:Abyssinia French Spahis army list
http://wp.me/p6mUyQ-vy
(https://abyssiniancrisis.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/spahis.jpg?w=332&h=438)
-
Just had a full read-through of the lists: incredible work, Rolf & Jim!
Thanks James. :)
I have to confess I was a bit lukewarm about the project to begin with, so the bulk of the enthusiasm came from Rolf and he deserves the credit for that. However once we got going, the potential for the scenario won me over... colonial warfare with tanks and everythng else the Thirties has to offer, what's not to like?
;)
-
Lardy Rich should provide both of you with a bonus - I just purchased Chain of Command (just could not resist the sale currently running) 8)
-
...French Cavalry are up next...
The mounted counterpart of the Zouaves and Colonial Infantry formations, the Chasseurs were formed from settler conscripts and career French volunteers and officers. While the intention was that at some future point the units would be mechanised cavalry, complete with light armour and trucks for their infantry element, by 1935 the formations were hybrid formations, typically composed of two horse-mounted squadrons, two of motorised cavalry and two armoured car squadrons.
...read about the Chasseurs d'Afrique at The Abyssinian Crisis blog
http://wp.me/p6mUyQ-vC
(https://abyssiniancrisis.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/frenchforeignlegion1936.jpg?w=527&h=417)
-
The French had been using camel-mounted troops in North Africa for some time. With typical patrol areas equivalent to travelling from London to Naples and back (2,500 miles), they had proven ideal for ‘flying the flag’ in the remote desert areas of the Sahara and Maghreb. With similar large areas to cover it was natural that they should raise similar units in the Côte française des Somalis.
This Chain of Command list is more in line with Lawrence in Arabia being wholly unlike any conventional force in the Horn of Africa. Camel mounted Méhariste, an armoured car or two and the odd French plane in support...what's not to like!
Chain of Command:Abyssinia Méharistes army list
http://wp.me/p6mUyQ-vA
(https://abyssiniancrisis.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/meharistes-1935.jpg?w=1352&h=1000)
-
...with this list, the French Foreign Legion, we complete the full suite of army lists for use with Chain of Command:Abyssinia.
The Légion Étrangère (Foreign Legion) are perhaps the most well-known French infantry formation. The Thirties had seen them relegated to the role of garrison and construction troops and their glory days at the head of French expeditions were now behind them. Nevertheless they were still a volunteer force and composed of men on long-service contracts. Man for man they were still the formations with the most combat experience.
In this list we have combined a number of different elements to reflect the Foreign Legion using Chain of Command. For those wanting a more detailed discussion of the French Foreign Legion army list and its development and use in Chain of Command there is an article in the soon to be released Two Fat Lardies xmas special, out very soon, authored by your esteemed administrator Arlequin, the principal author of the FFL list.
Get them both!
https://abyssiniancrisis.wordpress.com/2016/01/01/chain-of-commandfrench-foreign-legion/
(https://abyssiniancrisis.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/tumblr_mvyg1avce81s57vgxo1_r1_1280.jpg?w=676&h=419)