Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Conflicts that came in from the Cold => Topic started by: Khurasan Miniatures on 18 February 2016, 01:43:32 AM
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What sort of evolution would the infantryman of the US Army have gone through between, say, 1987 (let's call that Team Yankee) and 2003?
I guess it's best to take three snapshots -- Team Yankee, Desert Storm, and Iraq 2003.
By "evolution" I mean changes in terms of
A) appearance
B) squad org
Any input appreciated, thanks.
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By 2003 a goodly part of it would have learned to walk erect. There was also a distinct increase in the prospects of someone shooting at them.:)
a) Body armour, various iterations.
Small arms: changes from M161A1 to M16A2 to M4.
Support weapons, Dragon to Javelin.
b). No real change to organisation
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Appearance:
Gear-wise, 1987 was obviously not much different from Desert Storm which was only a few years later. Woodland or 6-color desert fatigues , PASGT helmet and vest, M16A2 (late 80s), LC2 (ALICE) load bearing equipment, black boots. M60s were being phased out to be supplanted by M240s, and the M249 SAW was carried as well.
Iraqi Freedom was quite different. The US Army had switched to M4 carbines as the standard infantry weapon (although the M16 was still used by lots of troops, especially National Guard and REMFs), and fatigues were 3 col desert (a lot of gear, like MOPP suits, were still in woodland pattern). Troops wore the new Interceptor body armor but retained their "Fritz" PASGT helmets, and they had access to a lot more high-tech gear like NVGs, communication equipment, and AN/PEQ laser sights on their weapons, along with the occasional M68 Aimpoint red dot sight. The new ACU/UCP fatigues were in the process of being (insufficiently) field-tested starting in 2003. Load-bearing equipment was mostly modern MOLLE gear, where ammo pouches were more often than not attached directly to the armor vests, while the dedicated harness was only used by some machine gunners and automatic riflemen (because the important ammo pouches had to be transferable in the case of the gunner becoming incapacitated). Standard-issue boots were light brown / tan suede leather. CamelBaks were the usual means of staying hydrated in the field, and everyone wore Oakley or ESS protectice eyewear ;)
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I beg to differ...
2003 Iraqi Freedom: based on picture of 3rd ID the M16A2 was still the more common assault weapons (very few M4 in the pictures from 3rd ID, usually associated with officers or vehicle crews.) it become more widespread after the fall of Baghdad. Very few camelbacks, in several dozens of pictures I have seen only two (and in one case it can just be the cape of the MOPP gear. You see more and more in pictures from 2004. Also very little evidence of high tech gear early on. The majority of M16A2 have no attached additions. There were no ACU in the 3rd ID in the drive to Baghdad, it entered testing later. In the pictures you see a lot of MOPP suits used by the troops especially until closing to Baghdad. Then it is the three colour desert camo. Very little protective eyewear with the exception of sandglasses. Not even a lot of NVG mounting on helmets.
Of course units arriving later, like the 4th ID had more High Tech equipment. So by the end of the year the look of the troops changed.
1987: the big differing elements (besides having still Dragon missiles opposed to Javelins) is the fact that some NG mechanized unit still on M113 (and some regular army units so equipped) retained the H-Series TOE:
1 Squad Leader (M16)
1 Antiarmor Specialist (M47 Dragon)
1 Gunner (M60)
1 Assistant Gunner (M16)
1 Assistan Squad Leader (M16)
1x Rifleman (M16)
2x Automatic Riflemen (SAW)
This is straight form FM 7-7 1985.
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I entered the US Army in July of 2003.
I used a LBE, Alice pack, K-pot, canteens, and M16A4 in basic and infantry school.
We did not use dragons, but we did train on Javelins.
When I got to my unit in May of 2004, we still used BDUS and DCUS until 2007 when all kit was replaced with ACUs.
From day one of my time in the 82nd we all had M4s, ACTH helmets, MOLE gear, cool guys optics, NVGs, camel backs and Oakley eye pros.
The heavy weapons company was still using TOWS for there main Anti tank weapon.
But I have been out since late 2008 so I any thing from from that point on is only 2nd hand knowledge.
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I beg to differ...
1987: the big differing elements (besides having still Dragon missiles opposed to Javelins) is the fact that some NG mechanized unit still on M113 (and some regular army units so equipped) retained the H-Series TOE:
1 Squad Leader (M16)
1 Antiarmor Specialist (M47 Dragon)
1 Gunner (M60)
1 Assistant Gunner (M16)
1 Assistan Squad Leader (M16)
1x Rifleman (M16)
2x Automatic Riflemen (SAW)
This is straight form FM 7-7 1985.
Any M203s in that organization?
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Any M203s in that organization?
I would think so. lol
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I just read a thread about M203 distribution yesterday, but I can't find it now. Seems like it was either carried be the Fire Team Leader or given to "the new guy" :)
Apparenty, the M203 was formerly used for (besides it's role as an indirect fire weapon) target marking, something that the now-common IR laser designators can do as well, but the M203 still has the advantage of a ballistic flight curve, to mark targets behind berms where a laser wouldn't reach. At least that's what one of the posters wrote.
Edit: Here it is:
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=412402
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Team leaders with M203s is a USMC thing, in an Army rifle squad they go to a grenadier, not the team leader.
The range on an M203 makes it a shitty target marker, you would be inside 'danger close' ranges for anything but light mortars, and frankly, if you can hit it with a smoke grenade, why would you not be dropping HE on it? Maybe you would mark a target direction from your position for targets too far away to engage.
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Reading the thread again, I think I misread the sentence about target marking.
Seems like at least the team leaders in some units carried the M203 in the Army... It also seems like the stuff that's in the FMs seldom held up in the field :D
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There was a thread on The Missionary Position this week that suggested that it was the exception rather the rule that anyone but grenadier would carry the M203 rather confirming what the pams say. At least the consensus of the ones claiming to have been in the US Army did. Of course that's TMP so enormous grain of salt required.
Jake's word, the US field manuals and other tomes are good enough for me. I can't speak for the US Army but the notion of the section commander carrying the M79 or an M203 was canvassed at one point in Australia way back when and rejected. The secco is far too busy to use the damn thing efficiently and there are better ways of marking targets.
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That's the way we fielded them in the 504. I was also a grenadier for a bit. You don't give the 203 to the new joe if you can help it.
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M203...
forgot to add the Grenadier to the H-Series squad. Oh... well worth to remember that the M113 driver and gunner were part of the squad rather than (as in the J-Series) being grouped with the other crews in their own subsection of the platoon. Also the squad is not organized in two fire teams, but in LMG section (M60+ assistant gunner), a dismounted section (everyone else but...), the Anti Armor specialist (all alone). Priority manning was M47 then M60, then everything else.
Also, as much the FM 7-7 (1985) mentions two Automatic Riflemen with saw, in pictures from the period often you see one SAW (M249) or none. Active Force got the priority for SAW, with NG mechanized unit receiving them as deliveries allowed (and my guess is that units wo were selected to move to J-Series and receive M2 got them early on). So it is not inconceivable to have NG units with no M249 in the 1985-1989 period.
the late 80s were a transition period.
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Good discussion. The 2003 year is a tough one. Remember we charged back into Iraq the second time wearing woodland camo and wearing big rubber NBC suits etc. Funding and development didn't go very far in the 90's. But once we hit Iraq/Afghanistan proper we saw an extremely rapid change in equipment/gear.
2003 running into Iraq...
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/US_Navy_030323-M-3692W-014_Sgt._Jeff_Seabaugh,_a_squad_leader_with_the_15th_Marine_Expeditionary_Unit_(Special_Operations_Capable)_(15th_MEU_(SOC)),_moves_his_Marines_to_their_objective_during_a_mission_in_support_of_Operation.jpg)
And 2010-2011 by the time we were leaving...
(http://media-1.web.britannica.com/eb-media/45/102745-004-AB935713.jpg)
So 2003 was literally "late Cold War" era stuff. You could get away with a lot depending on the unit.
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Just saw some photos of my old unit doing NBC training. Still using Woodland and Desert NBC protective clothing. :D
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I just love the subtle detail, that the Grunt in the background, has a pair of brass knuckles hanging on his LBE :D
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I just love the subtle detail, that the Grunt in the background, has a pair of brass knuckles hanging on his LBE :D
Your right, I didn't notice that before. lol
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I just love the subtle detail, that the Grunt in the background, has a pair of brass knuckles hanging on his LBE :D
Good spotting skills.
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Granted my experience is really only with the CF, but from my understanding if you want "Thunder Run" uniforms, you're more likely to see USMC in Woodland MOPP suits, and ARMY in 3 Colour desert. ACU/UCP didn't turn up until 2006-7, and Multicam was only in Afghanistan for a long time, and even then, post 2010. Also worth keeping in mind, as you do your research, ACU is not a camouflage, but a uniform style/format/system.
As to the M203, there should really be one per fireteam for Army, I'm not sure about USMC. You will also see much more regimented gear in the Marines, but army guys may be using their issue IOTV w/Molle pouches, or chest rigs over top, LBVs etc..there's alot of variety out there.
Hope this helps keep things clear as mud for you....