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Miniatures Adventure => Pikes, Muskets and Flouncy Shirts => Topic started by: El Grego on February 19, 2016, 05:46:52 PM
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As my birthday is coming up, I thought that I would splash out some funds on more miniatures :o
I'm looking at expanding my Mesoamerican collection with some Tlaxcalteca figures, either from Outpost and/or from TAG, but both companies have a wide variety of miniatures. As I am away from any notes, I could use some help determining what a decent mix of troop types would be. How many 'Elites' would there be versus the 'zoomorphic' suit wearers is the big question? Also, how many of these types would be wearing back banners? Just need rough estimates but I am trying to be somewhat historical in my approach.
Thanks in advance,
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Hi which rules are you planning on using as that might be a clincher for you
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Here were ones worked a good while ago for WAB http://wabforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=3116&p=34228&hilit=Lowtardog#p34228
I think ralph went on to do lists for other rules but my interest went when I sold off my armies. Dont forget though you can intermix aztecs with your tlaxcala as they did share some similarities
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Here were ones worked a good while ago for WAB http://wabforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=3116&p=34228&hilit=Lowtardog#p34228
I think ralph went on to do lists for other rules but my interest went when I sold off my armies. Dont forget though you can intermix aztecs with your tlaxcala as they did share some similarities
Thanks for the link - much to go through there!
I did notice that the TAG Aztecs have coyote suits, which do not appear in the TAG or Outpost shops for the Tlaxcala.
As for rules, I am basing the miniatures singly, but aiming for Irregular Wars 2nd edition for the first try.
Greg
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Here were ones worked a good while ago for WAB http://wabforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=3116&p=34228&hilit=Lowtardog#p34228
Gordon Bennit! I remember that well from The WAB Forum! :) :)
Darrell.
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Gordon Bennit! I remember that well from The WAB Forum! :) :)
Darrell.
Aye long time ago mate
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Aye long time ago mate
'Tis indeed :'(
Still, they were goodly days :)
Darrell.
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Coyote suits are frequently illustrated in the codices.
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Here were ones worked a good while ago for WAB http://wabforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=3116&p=34228&hilit=Lowtardog#p34228
Finally read through those lists - great stuff there.
Although it did not help much with my 'elites' vs. 'zoomorphic' dilemma, the lists have given me much food for thought on how to rewrite the Irregular Wars Mesoamerican list to better reflect both the Tlaxcala and the Huaxtec, including how to represent the Tlaxcala coyote suits. Thanks again!
Greg
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Not a problem, some lads who frequent here now and again chronofus and Ralph Krebs have much more knowledge than I do and may comment. I think there are lists in a fields of glory book and sure lists in war and conquest or hail caesar free on the net. It is very hard to work through lists as although the codeces show a myriad of suits it often could depend on the type of battle as to the make up and variety of elite types to the rank and file
Found them, a little more vanilla than WAB
http://scarabminiatures.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=1049
And for another set
http://www.greatescapegames.co.uk/clash-of-empires/army-lists/american-army-lists
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More great lists; thanks again!
At the moment, I do not think the division of the Tlaxcala 'elites' and 'zoomorphics' is a big worry for Irregular Wars 2nd ed. as the army lists have just a 'suit wearers' unit. Perhaps I am wondering why Outpost has 'elites' and TAG has 'zoomorphics' with no overlap between the two companies. The best course of action is to get some of each of course ;)
Greg
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I would buy outpost, and where you need a back banner not in their range or replace the couplev wrongly styled ones, buy it from tag if they have it. I would not buy the zoomorphic at all, but you do as you enjoy.
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Thank you, sir.
Outpost it is then, and more digging on the web for info from the Lienzo de Tlaxcala. It is just a bit strange that two companies have such different offerings for supposedly the same genre.
Greg
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Comes down to interest and research.
If you're not a button counter the strange suits wouldn't matter. If you're the kind of person who painted black body paint on your Aztecs exposed flesh, scraped the ridiculous tequihua hairstyle off your novices, along with the shoes and jewelry, then maybe stay away from the zoo suits. And replace the one dimensional outpost back banners with 3 dimensional ones, and only use them as the cabacara banner and not fill out a unit of warriors wearing them. And seriously consider using white body paint and the facial painting style of camaxtla.
Depending how familiar you are with the Lienzo, be aware that the warriors drawn with the Spaniards aren't all tlaxcalans. Look for the details and you'll begin to pick who is who as far as nations go. Sadly the version of the Lienzo which names the warriors pictured - generally they are all specific notable people standing next to the spanish - is hidden away from the world and has never been published. I don't recall the Historia de Tlaxcala making any mention of suits outside of puma, ocelot, bears, coyotes and eagles. It makes the point that the Aztecs, Acolhua and Tlaxcalans had the same military stylings due to their common ancestry traditions.
Don't stress overly about it, 99.9% of people will barely even know anything about the detailing of your warrior army anyway.
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I'll agree with CDM's assessments.
It is true that the Nahuatl speaking nations were derived from the ancient inhabitants of Tollan-Xicocotitlan Tula. The "Relacion Geografica" states that the Acolhua of Teotehuacan wore suits resembling eagles, jaguars, coyotes, deer, herons, ducks, puma and other "animals". I would suppose that the descendant peoples continued that, but may have winnowed out the designs based on artistic and cultural preferences. The Aztecs seemed to have preferred eagles, jaguars and coyotes. The Tlaxcalteca seem to have been more diverse. I thought that in the Lienzo there was an example of a deer suit, but I couldn't find it after a short google search this morning. There is an alligator or cayman suit in the Lienzo. I'm a little happier with the TAG figures than CDM is, and tolerate their "zoomorphic" warriors. Their regular troop Tlaxcaltecs have the twisted headband and the feathered hair ornament. Most wear an ichcahuipilli "flak vest" type of clothing which the rank and file warriors probably did not wear. There was a cotton embargo by the Aztecs and most armour was in the form of henequen and maguay. You have to have some suspension of disbelief if you want to collect Mesoamerican figures. Like CDM says, your opponents probably won't know or care.
As for Outpost, I do like their figures too, especially their Huaxtecs and Incas. Some of their older sculpts have slightly large heads which is off putting. Their Maya suffer from that, but now they are the only game in town at 28mm, and I will be ordering a few in the future from them. They do have some beautifully painted examples of their figures on their website. You should have a look at them.
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Thank you for the replies, gentlemen. A little more research, then, before buying.
My current gaming partner is my lovely wife, and she is as interested in the region as I am, so getting most of the details right the first time around is a concern for both of us. I have yet to get to any Aztecs - I have the Lucid Eye Huaxtec currently - but I would be tempted to modify the miniatures to the best of my limited abilities.
Greg
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A few things to consider for your research:
Cotton was not a native crop within the borders of Tlaxcala or it's immediate allies to the south. By the late Aztec period Monty 2 was trying to starve the Tlaxcalans out by limiting the extensive coast to coast trade they once enjoyed, though it was not as comprehensive as he liked. It certainly had impacts and the Tlaxcalans and other affected nations made a big deal of it in conversations with the Spanish. You can refer Cortes' letters as an easy to find basic start in English about that, though it is mentioned in many primary sources. That they still had access to it is also borne out in Cortes when he notes they made a gift of cotton to him. I am unaware of a primary source stating the Tlaxcalan armour was only of henequin, it must be there somewhere for Ralph to state so. However, three primary sources explicitly state cotton armour - one Spanish, one Nahua and one Tlaxcalan. If you have Heath's book he begins the Tlaxcalan section by quoting the Spanish source in English. *shrug*
So let's look seriously at the whole zoomorphic thing.
The comments in Heath's book about random warrior suits is found under the Tlaxcalan entry:
As well as eagles, jaguars and coyotes, numerous other varieties of zoomorphic war suit appear to have been used amongst the Tlaxcaltecs, Aztecs, and other tribes too. Detail 57(a) [from Heaths images on the same page] depicts the headdress of a deer headed suit from a Tlaxcatlec m[anu]s[cript] of 1562 [*1], while 57b is an alligator variety from the Lienzo [de Tlaxcala][*2]. A Relacion Geografica records that in pre Conquest days the Acolhua of Teotihuacan had worn costumes resembling not just eagles, jaguars, coyotes and deer, but also herons, ducks, pumas and 'other animals.'[*3]
Looking at these 3 topics:
[*1]
The 1562 manuscript that Heath refers to is the genealogy of Maxixcatzin document held in the Archivo General de la Nacion, Mexico. For those of us more geographically challenged, you can access a basic, scratchy version of it in Gibson's Tlaxcala of the 16th Century, p142 adjoining figure V.
What does the genealogy do? It shows the lineage of Maxixcatzin, who for the uninitiated is one of the Tlaxcaltec lords that Cortes met in the conquest. His father's name is Macatzin (sorry, can't type that C stress thing that's like a z in Spanish), which translates as deer. So we have a pictoglyph with a deers head and a man's face in it with the word Macatzin which means deer below it. Opposite him in a secondary portion of the tree is a pictoglyph of a butterfly with a word I can't make out due to his awful hand written transcription, but it includes the fragment papalo which for anyone studying Aztec warriors is instantly recognisable as butterfly. Again a pictoglyph representing someone's name. Do we then assume they wear a popalotl banner? Obviously not, Heath took a wild stab in the dark and stabbed himself. In an excellently researched and written book that is still the only reliable public reference for central american wargaming, it is easy to forgive him this minor blunder. The remaining lords and ladies have regular male and female face caricatures. If you chose to go against all other researchers and decide his name and pictoglyph refers to his warrior suit, you have a lot of very intresting warrior suits to start to pick from. YMMV
[*2]
The Caiman suit in the Lienzo de Tlaxcala. Found on plate 62, it forms part of the series relating to Guzman's conquest of western Central America. Guzman's letters to the crown still exist and if you're feeling like some light bondage and torture reading, they can be found in Spanish online. In it he clarifies he took with him lords of Tlaxcala, Huexotzinco, Tlatilulco and 'other Lords from across Mexico'. Even the most cursory glance at the images backs that up with warriors also from Tenochtitlan, Texcoco and Cholula? I think it is off the top of my head clearly depicted. There is nothing specific in the image to link the caiman warrior to Tlaxcala, or Huexotzinco, Tlatelulco or any other nation obvious in the associated imagery, as there is nothing to link the coyote warrior on plate 60 to anyone in particular, or the Texcoco lord on plate 66 as really being a Tlaxcalan lord borrowing a purely Texcocoan outfit. That there is a Caiman outfit worn by some lord from somewhere, there is no doubt, attributing it to the Tlaxcalans because it happens to be illustrated in the lienzo is a huge leap of faith. If you wish it to be so, you'll need to invent a back story of how an animal non native to the sierra uplands is so culturised in their belief system to deserve a warrior suit. If you want to do that, I'd suggest starting with some Tlaloc association and stretching it from there. My belief is if it 'has' to be attached somewhere, that considering it's Guzman, he was Panuco governor, caimans are more attuned to coastal lowlands, it's a moderate leap of faith to assume he has dragged some coastal lord along for a bit of a western conquest lark. We know he did take natives from Panuco with him when he left. *shrug* I don't know, my ability to leap of faith a tlaxcalan caiman warrior is pretty non existent. To attribute it to anywhere specific is beyond my current knowledge, though a huaxtec region is about as far as I am willing to stretch it to. Again, YMMV.
[*3]
The Relacion Geografica is not a document as such, lets make it easy to understand for this forum and call it a census questionaire. The Spanish crown sent it out to all parts of the new world with some basic questions in it. Different places filled it out based on the questions and their level of interest. Some are almost practically useless for any purposeful information, being less than a page long, some are utterly brilliant, such as the Relacion Geografica for Texcoco which answered the questionaire with hundreds of pages of interesting history.
I am unaware of which particular Relacion Heath refers to. That he says Acolhua automatically puts it within the returns from the Texcoco sujetos. I went trawling through the Texcoco one and didn't find the text quoted, and then I got too lazy to go look in others. If ye be bored, by all means trawl away until you find the full text. Regardless, being Teotihuacan puts it within the Otumba kingdom within the Texcoco nation. Certainly not Tlaxcalan. By all means include them as an allied contingent to the Texcocoan portion of your Aztec army.
So what am I saying?
I know of no evidence yet that places any weird animal suits within the Tlaxcalan nation. My research is non exhaustive, but I know of none that are clearly in use at the time of conquest. The Tlaxcalans don't mention any in the Historia either aside from the standard animals we know. That weird suits exists in general in central America is beyond doubt, many maps and texts do describe them. Refer for example the map of Teozacoalco. Some awesome suits there for the Oaxaca region. I still wouldn't use them in a Tlaxcalan or Aztec army unless I added to them as an Oaxacan allied contingent.
If you wish to use them in your Tlaxcalan army, no one on this planet should stop you except your own limit of common sense and what you feel comfortable talking yourself into.
My general point though is that the TAG research on the Tlaxcalan range is really, really poor. It's like they opened a book and looked at some pictures and decided I like this one and that one and I'll make this and that because I think they are a cool idea. I seriously doubt they read anything. They blundered badly by claiming the vine banner from Atlixco in Huexotzinco worn by the warrior in plate 55 of the Lienzo as the Tlaxcalan national banner. A rudimentary search would have turned up there were 4 main national banners for the Tlaxcalans which are all pictured elsewhere in the Lienzo, plus banners for many of the Tlaxcalan sujeto kingdoms. Making the 4 national banners would have been the very least they should have done for a 'Tlaxcalan' range instead of what we ended up with.
BTW, I do own the whole range :) They got their moneys worth out of me, and I didn't really care that much about the inaccuracies.
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Thank you for the thorough explanation!
After a brief glance at the Lienzo, I think that the Outpost elites are the best way to go. I plan to supplement them with a few of the TAG coyote suits (from the Aztec range), and possibly some of the Jaguar suits.
And after some deliberation, I decided to reinforce my Huaxtec with more miniatures from the Outpost range :)
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Nothing to add to the detail provided above.
But interested to see someone else using Irregular Wars, I've played a few games and have really enjoyed the rules. We have used mainly Eastern European to Middle Eastern armies. But I did pick up the full set of Obelisk miniatures 10mm Conquistadors and Meso-americans - so will be looking to organise and paint these sometime in the future.