Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: CarlLeyland on February 28, 2016, 03:10:58 PM
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Hi,
I was wondering given the plastic revolution are there any suitable figures out there for the Sub Roman British period? Are there any planned?
I have the patience of a Tibetan master and will wait for these to eventually be covered but suggestions for what I can be gathering as allies or enemies would be great as I will paint them occasionally and let them amass slowly without anyone-my wife-noticing.
Thanks in advance.
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For unarmoured types Gripping Beast Dark Age warriors without helmets would do. You could replace heads with the metal ones from WestWind.
For armoured ones I have not heard about any plastics for this period but with a bit of necklace removal and more head swoops I think GB Vikings might work.
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Thanks Jack thats actually a damned good idea! That had not even crossed my mind. I do like the look of the late Romans and wonder why they have not yet been covered.
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Use Gripping Beast Saxon Thegns for armored warriors. The sprue includes Late Romans helmets, some of which can be seen here:
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k297/generulpoleaxe/gripping%20beast/saxon-spear-1.jpg)
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I think maybe those are supposed to be variants of Coppergate type helmets. Which would put them more 700s - 800s than late Roman. But close enough I guess :)
I'm sure if you give it a year or two, one of the plastic manufacturers will come up with a late Roman set. Let's face it, Republican and Imperial Romans are pretty well catered for already, so it can only be a matter of time...
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I think maybe those are supposed to be variants of Coppergate type helmets. Which would put them more 700s - 800s than late Roman.
Yep :)
Darrell.
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Wow Delbrook those figures look so ice! Very well painted indeed....
I think I will adopt the lotus position and wait for the sets to be released, hopefully they will be a little larger than the medieval ones which make me squint....though having said that there should be a few less straps and buckles on the standard infantry.
Lets hope the Perries have this on their list.
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So far I have asked about 5-6 manufacturers and noone seems to be remotely interested in late roman plastics, we have 4 makers of plastic republican romans, 15th century heavy turkish cavalry, 2 types of arabic archers, but not one manufacturer of plastic late romans. Someone please do it, I will buy a crates worth
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Just tagging along with the others, but Gripping Beast Plastics with West Wind heads works pretty well. ~
The bare heads on the unarmoured warrior sprue are a bit shaggy for late/post-romans (they do make good generic germanics though!), but the West Wind heads tidy them up. The helmeted heads also work pretty well with this set. Due to the mix of leg bindings/no leg bindings they will always have a slightly less uniform look.
Either of the Viking Hirdman or Saxon Thegn sets would work for armoured infantry with suitable helmets. Both will need crosses/Thor's hammers removing, it just really depends if you want leg wraps (Thegns) or not (Hirdmen)...
Regarding how they look....
(http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p579/aw6313/20140610_072249_zpsakxhhojw.jpg) (http://s1156.photobucket.com/user/aw6313/media/20140610_072249_zpsakxhhojw.jpg.html)
Right hand two figures are converted GB unarmoured warriors
(http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p579/aw6313/20140514_184508_zpsaibjiutm.jpg) (http://s1156.photobucket.com/user/aw6313/media/20140514_184508_zpsaibjiutm.jpg.html)
(http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p579/aw6313/20140514_183228_zpswb5v2jia.jpg) (http://s1156.photobucket.com/user/aw6313/media/20140514_183228_zpswb5v2jia.jpg.html)
(http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p579/aw6313/20140514_183158_zps4tg0gpup.jpg) (http://s1156.photobucket.com/user/aw6313/media/20140514_183158_zps4tg0gpup.jpg.html)
The majority of the shield wall are again GB unarmoured warriors with WW heads...
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Those Saxon thegns are very nice, but I have to admit they are not mine.
The Gripping Beast Saxon helmets may be derived from the Coppergate design, but I have to assume the Saxon helmet was derived from late Roman (or similar Germanic) designs. To this non-expert the GB helmets look "late Roman", but using Westwind heads is a good addition/alternative.
As others have mentioned, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for plastic Late Romans. I think the Gripping Beast is the best we will get for quite a while. Plastics can always be supplemented by the odd metal figure. The planned Ebor Late Romans might be the perfect fit.
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It may be a long wait but I now have a plastic addiction, probably because they are cheap (in comparison to metal). Good pics though
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Has anyone asked North Star?
They've just gone into partnership with Agema (who currently have early Romans).
Maybe they might branch out?
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This could be interesting Fastolfus! As mentioned before the mainstay periods seem to have been covered so the less popular stuff may get a look in now....hopefully Late Romansthen Spanish Civil war....I have a list. Maybe a poll on here could help manufacturers?
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For my Late Roman Infantry, I've been using the bodies from Gripping Beast Armored Thegns and Dark Age Warriors (shaving off the crucifixes worn by the Thegns) with GB oval shields and West Wind heads. So, they are mostly plastic, and still a bit cheaper than metal figures. I don't think they look too bad.
(https://studiovalidus.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/roman-infantry-i.jpg?w=324&h=247&crop=1)
(https://studiovalidus.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/roman-infantry-ii.jpg?w=252&h=247&crop=1)
Some better shots here: https://studiovalidus.wordpress.com/2016/01/10/late-roman-troops-and-a-couple-of-extras/ (https://studiovalidus.wordpress.com/2016/01/10/late-roman-troops-and-a-couple-of-extras/)
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This could be interesting Fastolfus! As mentioned before the mainstay periods seem to have been covered so the less popular stuff may get a look in now....hopefully Late Romans then Spanish Civil war....I have a list. Maybe a poll on here could help manufacturers?
The odds are somewhat slight. The big outlay on a range of plastics are the moulds, the actual plastic is cheap as chips. Whereas in metal the cost is in the material to make the figures, so having got your master and moulds (not cheap but much cheaper than ones for plastics), if they don't sell, you cut your costs by not moulding any more. With plastic if they don't sell you can never recover the cost of the mould.
So taking the Perry's as an example; what is likely to sell a lot goes into plastics, what isn't goes into metal, so plastic Afrika Korps and 8th Army 'rank and file' and metal everything else. Warlord Games likewise with all the rank and file in plastic, support weapons etc in metal.
I can envisage Late Romans possibly seeing the light of day... but as much as I wish it was otherwise I doubt SCW. Bearing mind there is only really one game in town in 28mm and Empress haven't added to the range in an age, which you imagine they would if it was a 'seller'.
Simply put 'less popular' stuff is not viable for plastics, like metals I imagine you will eventually see multiple options for the same thing, but nothing unusual or of potentially limited appeal.
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Couldnt this simply be settled by a company willing to design and run a kick starter? I love the gripping beast figure conversions but look at how much effort to try get something as close as possible. give me off the shelf.
Oh and it needs to have berkosovo AND intercisa helmets. I have hundreds of dollars waiting to send anyone willing to start.
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Do they have to be 28s? HAT makes late Romans and Auxilliaries in 25 in plastic and they look dang good. Also at about 7 bux US a box of 40 price wise is nice!!
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I have never backed a kickstarter but I certainly would to help get some plastic figures into the late Roman period....and a few others.....I just need a decent explanation of what a kickstarter actually is!
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A kickstarter in my experience is customers buying in to the project usually at different levels depending on how much of the products you want/can afford.
Then providing the initial spend goal is reached the project is funded and everything gets rolling. Then further spend goals usually mean bonuses for backers, with more bonuses for those who invested more. Some kickstarters have been really successful for both customer and company, while others not so much.
Depending on the experiences of who you talk to you'll get different feedback on the concept of kickstarters
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Thanks Tyrion, I would not hesitate to back a company I already knew...Gripping Beast, Perry, Copplestone, Renegade-infact I trust most wargame companies
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The GB saxon thegn helmets are pretty suitable for Post Roman/ Late roman armies. The coppergate helmet is very similar in construction to helmets of the earlier period.
Wikipedia: "Like many other helmets of Germanic Western and Northern Europe in the Early Middle Ages the construction of Coppergate helmet is derivative of Late Roman helmet types."
The sculpts of the GB saxon helms do not have as elongated cheek flaps and nose guard as the actual coppergate. Slap those heads onto some GB dark age warriors and its a pretty suitable Post-Roman/late roman look. Also There is the westwind arthurian heads that you can purchase and stick them on to wargamesfactory fyrd bodies or even the GB dark age bodies and GB hirdmen/thegns.
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NEW Plastics Coming Soon From Gripping Beast - GBP09 Late Roman Infantry!
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(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfl1/t31.0-8/12496514_1023691611009856_7693370983114029271_o.jpg)
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There you go. As if by magic :D
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Well they all look like they enjoy their work. :)
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That's got to be the quickest company responding to customer feedback ever.
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NEW Plastics Coming Soon From Gripping Beast - GBP09 Late Roman Infantry!
Some more details would be nice. The painted figures look very impressive.
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Looking promising thanks for sharing
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nos tibi di favent,
:)
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Dammit! Plastic late Romans, my one weakness ;D
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Oh dear. I can see a box of these making it into my collection someday soon :P
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Bloody hell what timing! This is exactly what I was after woooooo lol Also they look superb! Who knows what is next in plastic? Viva the plastic revolution!
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Also they look superb!
They certainly do! 8) 8) 8)
Darrell.
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https://www.facebook.com/Gripping-Beast-196181460427546/ (https://www.facebook.com/Gripping-Beast-196181460427546/)
Now the question is, when will they be released?
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https://www.facebook.com/Gripping-Beast-196181460427546/ (https://www.facebook.com/Gripping-Beast-196181460427546/)
Now the question is, when will they be released?
I think they were aiming for Salute
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On the Facebook page there is also mention of
"Cavalry next- Roman and......well, wait and see!"
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:o Absolutely fabulous brushwork on the Gripping Beast figures!
How many more days to Salute? Must wait patiently...
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They are nicely painted, although bear in mind those are painted 3-ups, not 28mm figures.
By the way, just realised that Late Romans are Romans and so this topic really belongs in the 'Ancients' bucket, not Medieval Adventures. Am moving this thread over to that board :)
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EDIT: Just noticed the news were already up here, so removed the separate news thread.
To add a picture from the Beast's FB page:
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/24/1034_05_03_16_5_55_05.jpg)
Surely didn't expect Late Romans to be ever released in plastic. Unfortunately, it's not my cup of tea. Equipment detail looks off – notably helmets as well as scabards/swords, belts and puttees - and the models sadly retain a 'multi-part' appearance. Nah. :-I
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I must confess that, after an initial wave of enthusiasm (super painting!) I have had a touch of the seconds about them. The helmets, the somewhat over-dramatic poses and the very long, thick spear.
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Combined with the GB Dark Age Warriors the conversion possibilities will be/are endless.
I assume there will be more than just these four poses in the box.
Where Salute was usually a challenge because of the weight I had to drag home, it will now be the volume :)
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Must say I'm not a huge fan of GB's plastics so far, nor (apart from some of his heads / faces) a fan of this sculptor's style - although he seems to be cleaning up in the plastics world at the moment. His output is all over the place. Always a bit too cartoony for me - which suits Frostgrave, for instance, but I'm not convinced by these, and really disliked the Arab sets at lot. Wobbly anatomy. These do look to be an improvement over those, but it's just a stylistic thing more than anything. But I'm sure there'll be plenty of people who will like these and buy them :)
I really wish another sculptor of plastics would emerge to match / rival the Perrys, and to some extent, Victrix. Everyone else seems Naismith-dependent. Meaning there's a very distinct 'look' emerging across a lot of the current plastic output. Which to me (partly because it's not a look I like very much) is not a good thing :(
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*THE TRUTH*
Couldn't agree more about all points.
Lord knows I *heart* the Beasty boys and their metals, but those plastic Arabs aren't fit to be on the same table as the rest of their ranges.
Someone needs to show Bill Thornhill or Paul Hicks how to make plastic sets.
Steve May(?) at Immortal showed promise, but then packed it all in.
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Not sold on them, and to be honest compared to Perry's and Victrix the whole GB Plastic range is a real miss in my opinion.
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Some of Bob's stuff looks great, but these are too cartoon looking for me. Lovely paint work on them.
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Not sold on them, and to be honest compared to Perry's and Victrix the whole GB Plastic range is a real miss in my opinion.
The armoured Saxons are pretty decent, especially if you get a good join on the arm/shoulder. But yeah, in the main and excepting those you mention, plastic historicals are pretty sub-standard. Then again, it's not material dependent, there are loads of dodgy metal sculpts around too, which punters seem happy with.
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Next up are plastic Late Roman Cavalry as well as Plastic Goths.
I'm happy enough with them except for the faces, like I said in my other post, they look kinda catoonish which is odd as I don't recall any other work by him looking like that.
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I'm happy enough with them except for the faces, like I said in my other post, they look kinda catoonish which is odd as I don't recall any other work by him looking like that.
I'm afraid I think most of his stuff has that look to it. But these things are subjective, I appreciate :)
Next up are plastic Late Roman Cavalry as well as Plastic Goths.
Plastic goths? Excellent. You can get them already you know...
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x69/pantomaniac/Goths_set_2_4_zpsknm8nabs.jpg)
(Sorry - couldn't resist ;))
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Their pretty cool! Sadly I doubt they are 28mm and I cant find an army list that has giant Goths in it....so their out!
I rather like the priests he done in metal recently, didn't like the mounted Arabs but was happy enough with the plastic Arab foot and the Dark Age plastics, although they lack detail quite a bit. If the Goths don't have the exaggerated looking faces of these Romans then I'll likely be happy with them too.
Like you say these things are subjective.
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These are magnificent and I'll buy a ton of them.
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Personally, I prefer faces with some character. I find current Perry faces difficult to paint in many cases because they are small and delicate. I have seen and heard this kind of comment from other people. For example, Christy from "Wargames, Soldiers, and Strategy" mentioned it in one her You Tube Q&A sessions (at the 19:44 point):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htFGA9PzdOQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htFGA9PzdOQ)
I love Perry plastics, but on balance prefer to paint Victrix faces, which tend to have more character. It certainly is possible that the great painters on this forum are more comfortable painting current Perry faces.
I think it is likely a true 28mm image would tone down the exaggerated feature on the Gripping Beast Late Roman 3ups.
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I think it is likely a true 28mm image would tone down the exaggerated feature on the Gipping Beast Late Roman 3ups.
I think that's a fair point. They will probably look less extreme when reduced to the correct end scale.
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The armoured Saxons are pretty decent, especially if you get a good join on the arm/shoulder. But yeah, in the main and excepting those you mention, plastic historicals are pretty sub-standard. Then again, it's not material dependent, there are loads of dodgy metal sculpts around too, which punters seem happy with.
The best thing about the hobby is that we are spoiled for choice these days, and each can pick and choose their poison !
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Too true we are a hard to please lot. I was a little disappointed in the GB Dark Age warriors, added some sidearms and they did paint up well. Be interested to see what GB does with their Gothic and Vandal cavalry. Now if Victrix would include Gauls in their foreshadowed releases...............I am still on the hunt for a suitable mounted Decebalus and entourage for my Dacians and perhaps combining Victrix Gallic heads with GB's mounted might give me a suitable command group. Here's hoping.
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I've bought and played around with all the GBP sets minus the Saxon Thegns so far, and the Frostgave sets. I get the critique about the style - they are very distinct - I think a little cartoony - but in my mind Saga plays like a cartoon, and plays very well for what it is.
Agema's Republican Romans and the Warlord née Immortal Hoplites are in my books the finest plastic figures, though some of the Perry stuff isn't far behind, but when I want something a little over the top, I think the GBP plastics suit me.
All that said, I think their weakest point is the shoulders - more mundane heads are easy to source, but I find that if I'm not paying careful attention it's very easy to get arm poses that look very strange.
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Spoiled for choice would be an understatement!
Aside from these superb looking plastic figures, we have Maestro Paul Hicks bringing out a new Late Roman range, Crusader bringing out a new Sub-Roman/Arthurian/Late Roman range, Curteys adding to their sub-Roman ranges, Saxon Miniatures expanding their exquisite Winter King range and so on.
And then there is Aventine 'threatening' to release early 'Byzantines' (read Late East Romans)
Don't forget the rather nice sets by Black Tree! Often overlooked but some really great figures in there!
The West Wind unarmoured Arthurian figures have a few fantastic poses and their separate headsets are a godsend.
The conversion possibilities don't just end with the now abundant plastic figures. For example I really like the Footsore Late Roman figures but found them lacking in poses somewhat. Simply removing their right arm (done easily enough) and replacing it with a suitable mailed one from the plastic GB Thegns, netted me some really nice 'new' figures.
Of course I'm now looking at 'expanding' the Footsore unarmoured levies and Milites too...
I for one feel like I'm in a candy shop with a blank cheque.
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Well said Willie.
When I were a lad we had to settle for Minfigs :) I wonder if my army is still out there being used anger somewhere?
We are indeed spoiled, and act like spoiled children at times too, never satisfied :)
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Curiously, I'd wished Gripping Beast had stayed with Colin Patten's understated yet historically informed style. We may be spoilt for choice these days, but some mass-marketed (plastic) minis have an irritating tendency to become trademarked caricatures. That's perhaps related to people saying "Oh, finally, new SAGA/Bolt Action/*random 'system'* models!". o_o
In essence, I'm glad LAF isn't limited to a round of applause for each new release just because it is new and shiny and we all – well, sort of – remember the barren days of old. ;)
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Foundry metal Vikings sculpted by Mark Simms could be almost described as fantasy caricatures. A lot of people like them. On the other hand Gripping plastic Dark Ages figures (Thegns, Hirdmen, and Warriors) seem fairly "understated and historically informed" to me. I have to admit, though, that I do have my problems with all the boxes. For example, the shoulders and neck anatomy of many of the dark the warriors seem flawed. The hunched appearance doesn't look quite right.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ZbjJp89WOK0/Uap3xuMJDWI/AAAAAAAAEPs/ymfOUipGBUo/s1600/003.JPG)
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I was assuming they were hiding behind their shields. :D I love the plastic kits but they certainly do have their limitations, even the very nice kits like Perry's and Victirix.
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In essence, I'm glad LAF isn't limited to a round of applause for each new release just because it is new and shiny and we all – well, sort of – remember the barren days of old. ;)
Agreed - I think measured criticism is fair enough, providing you explain why, and it's politely expressed.
In the case of some the GB plastics, Delbruck's pic makes the point very well. Something is awry with the anatomy in quite a lot of this sculptor's work. The shoulders are too hunched and rounded, and many of the legs (in this case, the figure in the middle) are knock-kneed or otherwise disproportionate to the body. IMHO his stuff for Fireforge and Frostgrave is better for the most part. The original GB Vikings and Saxons are better too, although they also have some anatomical strangenesses. The Arab sets, I thought, were the weakest. Not keen on the new Conquest Games archers either - which I think are by the same hand.
All that said, the heads, for the most part, I actually quite like. Some of them push well over the line from 'character' to 'caricature', but I think they're the best aspect of his work. And it's all a matter of personal taste at the end of the day :)
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Does anybody know who does the 'sculpts' for Victrix? As far as I know, it's all done digitally.
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For me, there are too many plastic figures that just don't look right, no matter how well you put them together. The arms always seem to be going off in the wrong direction, the figures just don't look balanced. It started with the Warlord Romans and Celts, some of the celts were squatting down to the tent that some looked like they were taking a cr*p in the woods. That said, I have bought them all and continue to enthuse about their value for conversions
The next problem to overcome is my own bias towards the metal figures I have been painting for the last 35 years. I just can't get used to the fact that many of the new plastics are more correctly proportioned! What, no big heads and hands to paint?
If any one has a good solution to overcome the brittleness of plastic weapons, or a way of making them as heavy an tin, I'd really like to know. But up against their metal forebears, they just look like skinny ruts doing some kind of weird "dad dancing"
;)
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Sometimes when you mix two slightly awkward sets you get something close to right. For instance the Wargames Factory Vikings have nice upright bodies but awfully posed and silly open handed arms, while the Gripping Beast Vikings have a lack of upright bodies but great arms. Put the GB arms on the WF bodies and ... much better.
If you want weight in your hand then you could try using metal washers for bases or putting weights or magnets in the gaps in a GW style slotta base.
For broken spears why not replace them with wire spears? More dangerous to unwary fingers but certainly durable
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I do not think my excitement will be containable when the cavalry and germanic sets are previewed. I feel a yelp of excitement coming in the future!
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Sometimes when you mix two slightly awkward sets you get something close to right. For instance the Wargames Factory Vikings have nice upright bodies but awfully posed and silly open handed arms, while the Gripping Beast Vikings have a lack of upright bodies but great arms. Put the GB arms on the WF bodies and ... much better.
If you want weight in your hand then you could try using metal washers for bases or putting weights or magnets in the gaps in a GW style slotta base.
For broken spears why not replace them with wire spears? More dangerous to unwary fingers but certainly durable
De gustibus et coloribus non disputandum est. :D
For some reason I like to imagine that nearly everyone in a combat situation would probably hunker down somewhat leading to hunched, rounded shoulders and even unsightly squatting down.
Perhaps times have changed since the Dark Ages, but walking upright only makes you a bigger target.
Seriously now, I put all my plastic figures on washers and while the heft will never be as good as a 'true' metal figure it goes a long way to overcome the plastic feel.
And for some reason the GB plastic figures are unbelievably sturdy. After playing with some 120+ of them (mostly Dark Age warriors) for nearly 2 years (playing almost weekly) I had to replace 2 spears and 1 axe. Don't know how brittle the plastic will become over the years but for now that's a much better track record than my metal figures! lol
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I love all the plastics (well almost all and even Wargames Factory are now pretty damned good), this is probably due to my early gaming days with minifigs! Back in the day nobody seemed to mind mixing manufacturers-Essex were fantastic but huge by comparison, so I suppose I feel spoiled now.
Having said that Perry faces are hard to paint.
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One thing about all the plastic sets, is that they all look a bit 'off' if some care is not taken during assembly, I have seen countless examples of plastic miniatures that have been put together without any thought as to whether or not the pose physically possible- in some cases the manufacturers themselves display some terrible examples of this on their websites.
I think it is worth remembering, that yes plastic kits are multipart, but no not all of the pieces (arms etc) will fit every torso. Find a mirror, or try to do the pose you are trying to make the mini do yourself would be my tip.
But yes I do agree there are too many crouched figures and some 'interesting' anatomy. Does Naismith do all the warlord kits too?
I think the majority of the crouched poses can be explained by the fact that a lot of the plastic kits are aimed at former games workshop players, so be they Romans, Medieval knights or American GIs, they have the GW look... Grrrr I'm from history, and I'm badass! ;)
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My Gripping Beast Saxons are still in their box, plaintively crying out "The bells, the bells, Esmeralda".
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(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r195/webdeak/bn3_zpsaq5thnxq.jpg)
On the left Fighting Fantasy 60mm GW model from the mid 80s
On the right GB Viking
Sculpted, I believe, by the same person 30 years apart. I can certainly see a lineage (if not much evolution).
:)
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I like them. Despite the cartoonish faces and am hoping they will look better when they are rendered back down to 28mm.
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Check out the WI website, pic of the complete box is up. (That's wargames Illustrated not the Women's Institute of course)
Can't copy links since my tablet has been upgraded, progress?
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(http://i1.wp.com/wargamesillustrated.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/dan-pic2.jpg)
I will reserve judgement.
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(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/24/1034_05_03_16_5_55_05.jpg)
The commander seems like he's horribly sad about having to give whatever order he's about to give, the archer seems to have enjoyed something more than standard army rations before this battle, the swordsman appears to be enjoying the idea of stabbing his opponent a wee bit too much and the spearman looks like he's suffering from constipation..
All in all, a definite purchase for me. :D
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Its quite possible that the cartoon look to the faces is brought out yet further by the high level of detail painted onto the faces in the picture. Few people even painting to a high standard will be applying that much detail to figures for the wargames table, and so the cartoon look may hopefully be toned down considerably. looking at them unpainted in the second picture its hard to tell if this might be the case as the faces are not close up enough.
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After painting Vikings and Saxons I can say that low details on the face could be a problem with GB plastics - especially when in helmet and with beard..
So I am expecting that these faces it will be a welcome thing in 28mm..
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I especially like the vexillarius wearing the pileus cap. I'm wondering about the ratio of armored figs to unarmored and archers in each box. This has been my favorite period for over twenty years and it looks like there's going to be some new recruits for my exercitus!
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I'm looking forward to the release :)
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Now on pre-order for Salute:
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/24/1034_16_03_16_5_14_12_4.jpg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/24/1034_16_03_16_5_14_43.gif)
(news link on the Beast's HP (http://www.grippingbeast.co.uk/GBP09_Late_Roman_Infantry_plastic_44--product--5328.html))
HVM, who's also a fellow member of LAF methinks, got some pre-release sprues, photos here (http://www.sweetwater-forum.de/index.php?page=Thread&postID=216799#post216799) on German Sweetwater forum.
Still underwhelmed, to be honest. :?
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Barely multi-part at all these :(
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Barely multi-part at all these Sad
Indeed, less and less goodies inside for swapping to others. :'(
Still, i think they are not bad at all.
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I actually quite like these and GB's armored plastics, although I did find the unarmored Vikings to be a let-down (that more to do with very limited and stiff poses than anything else). I don't have any particular interest in late Romans, but I could easily see myself grabbing a set to make a SAGA warband, which will probably require at least some alternate heads, but the model breakdown from armored to unarmored to archers is perfect, and much preferable to budget SAGA warband building than the previous model that required parts from multiple boxes.
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For me they look the part, but the limited number of parts, and the fact that the Roman patterns are indented into the fabric really limits their kitbashing options, which while not the primary function of any kit, certainly helps give them a wider appeal.
If I had a greater interest in late Romans I might be more excited by these. I hope they do well and keep producing more plastics. :)
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I am quite disappointed with the make up of the sprue. 40% archers with a fixed shooting arm is excessive. One of the unarmoured figures could have been used to be either a spearmen or a loading archer (such as they have in the Arab box). One buys Romans for their heavy infantry, not for their archers. In addition, one head with a cap and one bareheaded is inadequate. With all the space left on the command sprue more heads could have been easily added.
I have come to the conclusion that only Perry and Victrix are interested in making full use of the potential of plastics. All the others seem to do the bare minimum required. In my mind, the thing that saves the box is the potential for kit bashing some of their other boxes.
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I have come to the conclusion that only Perry and Victrix are interested in making full use of the potential of plastics. All the others seem to do the bare minimum required.
Totally.
Such a shame.
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Personally (and I realise I'm in a minority here) I think fewer options and less multi-parts is the way to go.
For the talented amongst us like Captain Blood and others then the multi-part is clearly a boon. But for the rest of us ham-fisted poltroons we end up having to do the work of skilled sculptors and most of us fall short and end up with ill made poses.
I think it's an illusion of choice, not a real benefit for most of us.
Note the way that Victrix (and to a lesser extent the Perries) have moved away from the customisability of the early Napoleonic sets to (mostly) march attack and head swaps. Just 3 bits to put together that even eejits like me can't mess up.
Obviously this is something of a personal taste preference, some like the modelling experience and opportunities more than others. I always *think* I'll enjoy the possibilities of assembly a lot more than I actually do in practice. :)
I also think the multi-partedness leads to compromises - a couple of the Arab bodies were clearly intended for archery but were multi-part so you could stick a spear or javelin on them and it would look pretty ropy.
I am personally very fond of the old Perry WFB starter set single piece (or separate spear) plastics from the 5th and 6th edition starter sets. Enough variation to be interesting, but only able to go together in a way that makes nice looking soldiers (within the limits of the tech of the time).
I also happen to think that for Napoleonics and the more regimented types of ancients (like Romans) you want them in similar poses that rank up nice and easy. Hordes of barbarians maybe you want more variation, but I manage to get that with metals where there are usually only 3-4 real variations in any given code/range.
My main question about this specific set is did every single roman unit and soldier of this period have tunics with large circles sewn into them? Surely this is the kind of thing you'd prefer to paint on to the clothing. I've not seen it represented on any of the various metal late roman ranges, so I'm genuinely puzzled by that particular design choice.
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My main question about this specific set is did every single roman unit and soldier of this period have tunics with large circles sewn into them? Surely this is the kind of thing you'd prefer to paint on to the clothing. I've not seen it represented on any of the various metal late roman ranges, so I'm genuinely puzzled by that particular design choice.
Which is about the only thing I don't really like about this set. A few tunics with the round clavii were found but it is highly probable that numerous other designs(such as squares, oblongs or even simple stripes) were used as well. It somewhat limits the possibilities with this set but then again the newest (metal) Late Roman range from Paul Hicks has them too. As did the older Foundry Late Romans.
I suppose one could at least make a few Legios and Auxilia Palatina with these roundels in different colours without it becoming too repetitive. And perhaps it relatively easy to just fill in the engraved details with a quick dab of Magic Sculp. Would have liked some more with the pilleus cap as well but you can't have everything.
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I must say I would have preferred slightly more in the way of armoured bodies 8 just seems too few per box, maybe they could have had 8 unarmoured spears or archers instead.
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I also happen to think that for Napoleonics and the more regimented types of ancients (like Romans) you want them in similar poses that rank up nice and easy.
I suspect that was the reasoning. Anyone collecting a Roman army will buy loads of these and the figure mix of one armoured rank, two unarmoured and one archer, is very much the mix many people go for, right or wrong. They are apparently disciplined, hence the regimented poses.
Modellers might buy a box to play around with, while someone who is building an army buys more and wants to put them together quickly, paint them up and get them in play. No prizes for guessing who is the cash cow for this range.
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Initially was very excited about this release but not so much now due to the high number of archers and limited kit-bash opportunities - could achieve better with metal shields and heads on the Anglo-Dane bodies.
Missed opportunity
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I'm also disappointed in the unarmored/armored/archer ratio. Nevertheless, I'll probably reward GB's tricky business ploy by
purchasing a couple of boxes. Speaking of tricky practices. I live in the States and GB's shipping is 25% of the order. Years ago that was not the case. When they licensed Gripping Beast USA the shipping went up in, I suppose, an effort to encourage North American customers to patronize their American licensee. After GB USA went out of business, I emailed the Beast to enquire if shipping would then be reduced. As I recall, I was told that shipping to the States would remain at 25%
So, North Americans pay 125% for GB figs, not to mention the Pound to Dollar exchange rate. Needless to say, I have curtailed my purchases from GB.
But, the pics of the standard bearer and my enthusiasm for Late Romans have sold me on buying these figs.
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... but then again the newest (metal) Late Roman range from Paul Hicks has them too.
So they do, hadn't even noticed that.
Seems odd to me, but maybe it was more historically prevalent than I previously thought
I must say I would have preferred slightly more in the way of armoured bodies 8 just seems too few per box, maybe they could have had 8 unarmoured spears or archers instead.
I imagine that it's to make a force for SAGA. A single unit of 8 archers with the rest making units of 4, 8 or 12 spearmen. I expect the basic SAGA Roman force can be made with a single box.
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The basic problem is they have combined too many different elements: armored foot, unarmored foot, and (two) shooting archers in a small sprue of only five figures. Either the sprues need to contain more figures, or something (the archers) should be in a different box.
The release reminds me of Warlord's pre-1812 French Napoleonic infantry. This sprue contins four figures, one of which is elite. If you build a 24 figure battalion, all 8 of your elites will be the same figure. Clearly, the Warlord sprue should contain 2 elites and four line infantry. One has to wonder what they were thinking :(
Despite any complaints I might have, I am certainly happy to have a box of plastic Late Romans..
(http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0309/8965/products/wgn-sprue-04-french-sprue_ca43a837-0fae-461c-85cb-a150c22389f6_1024x1024.jpeg?v=1397664192)
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I'm also disappointed in the unarmored/armored/archer ratio. Nevertheless, I'll probably reward GB's tricky business ploy by
purchasing a couple of boxes. Speaking of tricky practices. I live in the States and GB's shipping is 25% of the order. Years ago that was not the case. When they licensed Gripping Beast USA the shipping went up in, I suppose, an effort to encourage North American customers to patronize their American licensee. After GB USA went out of business, I emailed the Beast to enquire if shipping would then be reduced. As I recall, I was told that shipping to the States would remain at 25%
So, North Americans pay 125% for GB figs, not to mention the Pound to Dollar exchange rate. Needless to say, I have curtailed my purchases from GB.
But, the pics of the standard bearer and my enthusiasm for Late Romans have sold me on buying these figs.
Keep in mind, though, that GB is one of the minority of retailers that actually remove VAT automatically for international customers. I know of several UK companies that charge 25% overseas shipping, and still charge VAT to overseas customers. I would imagine they pocket the extras.
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Keep in mind, though, that GB is one of the minority of retailers that actually remove VAT automatically for international customers. I know of several UK companies that charge 25% overseas shipping, and still charge VAT to overseas customers. I would imagine they pocket the extras.
Yeah. Perry's also don't charge the VAT so the 20% shipping charge is just a wash. As I'm from Canada even ordering from the States shipping is expensive. And I don't want to hear anyone else complain about exchange rates... :p
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The amount of wasted space and severe lack of spare parts on this sprue makes me sad. Why bother paying the huge cost of tooling a steel mold for something like this? They could have easily fit twice as many components on this sprue. It's almost like they don't understand the benefits of plastic at all. I don't mind the actual sculpts at all, but I feel that the overall design of this kit is poor.
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xal1/v/t1.0-9/1610023_877794429000002_8090575403952419734_n.jpg?oh=d5d2303685c1271d89ffcd89c40eb446&oe=5789B64D)
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The amount of wasted space and severe lack of spare parts on this sprue makes me sad. Why bother paying the huge cost of tooling a steel mold for something like this? They could have easily fit twice as many components on this sprue. It's almost like they don't understand the benefits of plastic at all.
Exactly. I don't think they do understand the appeal of plastics. The first couple of GB sets (Vikings and Saxons) were pretty good - a good selection of different bodies, lots of head options, a wide variety of arms and weapons, plus some nice extra accoutrements.
Since then, starting with the generic Dark Age warriors (just 5 different bodies) going on to the Arab sets, and now these Late Romans, the GB sets have got worse and worse to the point where (whether you like the sculpts or not) it's pretty apparent that they have included the minimum amount of components possible, and are barely genuinely multipart at all.
I think this is because where the Perry (and Victrix) mindset is 'let's include as much as we can, to give people the scope to mix and match and create a wide range of different / unique figures from this set', the GB mindset is 'let's include the minimum possible, because it's not about letting people create variety - just about getting a shedload of (relatively) cheap figures onto the table to bulk out an army'.
To be fair, another factor is that the Perrys don't have to pay for sculpting. They do it themselves, so they can afford to invest as much time as they want to in creating as many components as they desire to fill out a new kit. I get the impression that GB and some other plastic entrants, go for the least amount of sculpted components they think they can get away with, in the interests of minimising the sculpting (and perhaps also the tooling) bill?
At the end of the day though, it's just about value for money. Never mind that the quality of the Perry plastic sculpts is immeasurably superior - the plain fact is, a box of plastic soldiers costs around 20 quid, whoever it comes from.
In terms of value for money, a twenty pound Perry box is crammed with a 12 - 15 different bodies and literally hundreds of head / arms / weapons / accoutrement components to choose from.
A twenty pound GB box has half a dozen different bodies and hardly any choice of components.
Do the math, as they say.
Just as an example - on the comically empty frame shown above - why model the arms attached to the bodies, when those arms could have been provided separately for the modeller to choose where and how to put them? It's just odd.
As you say, I don't think they understand the appeal and benefit of plastics. Or at least, they have a very different idea about what that appeal is.
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To be fair, another factor is that the Perrys don't have to pay for sculpting. They do it themselves, so they can afford to invest as much time as they want to in creating as many components as they desire to fill out a new kit. I get the impression that GB and some other plastic entrants, go for the least amount of sculpted components they think they can get away with, in the interests of minimising the sculpting (and perhaps also the tooling) bill?
On the buisiness-side it does not matter, because the perrys also need to calculate the time of sculpting to get their loan. Only advantage for the perrys is, that everybody wants their stuff and will wait.
Sometimes I think GB often ignore the high standard which we are now living with. It is very sad when you see good kits like the saxons and vikings and the newer seems to downgrade in quality again.
One question, Richard: How is the quality of Fireforge?
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Fireforge are not bad - just my opinion, obviously. Some parts better than others. I think they use Bob Naismith to sculpt too, but (if so) his work for them seems to have a bit more finesse than his more recent efforts for GB. The style of the sculpting is just finer, with less clunky undercuts and so on. The figures are less chunky all round. Plus points - the great bulk of the assorted FF medieval bodies, cloaks, shields, horse bodies, and all the enclosed knightly heads are all really good. Minus points - the weapons are too fantasy-outsized for my tastes - although this has improved quite a lot in the later FF sets. Much more proportionate. The horse heads look like grinning skulls - not very good. Some of the open faced helmeted heads are slightly outsized / cartoony - not to my tastes anyway, but as ever, a huge amount of this comes down to personal preference for style. In terms of the mix of components, not quite as generous with parts as the Perrys, but still genuinely multipart, and with a great deal more choice and options in each and every set than in the recent GB sets.
I'd put the Perrys at 5 star, and Fireforge at approaching 4 star.
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I think for gamers of the Early Roman period this set will be welcomed. The figures work out at 50p each. That's a heck of a lot cheaper than the metal counterparts. As a gamer, I would be asking myself do I want to buy an average sculpt in few poses in plastic at 50p a pop, or an average sculpt in few poses in metal at £1.50/£2 a pop? Do the math indeed.
Apparently there are cavalry on the way too, so if I was considering this period I would hold back a little and see how they shape up.
I did also see in the news somewhere that Studio Tomahawk are preparing a Saga book for this era, due out probably next year. For the gamers in the community this is all good news I would have thought.
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Those prices for metals are a bit misleading, I know of a place you can get them much cheaper than that, eg £1.13 to just under a pound depending on how many you buy....lol
Cheers
Keith
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Foundry are 8 for £12 = £1.50 each.
Footsore are 4 for £6 = £1.50 each.
Curteys have a unit deal of 24 for £27 = £1.13 each.
Crusader are 8 for £9 = £1.13 each.
Dunno of any others. Even if you can get just under a pound, it's still twice as much. These prices are more than twice or even thrice as expensive as the GB figures and look a similar standard to me. I reckon my point stands, though eye of the beholder and all that. If I gamed this period I would certainly look at the GB stuff, there's nothing amazingly better available and you certainly cannot beat the price.
The box composition may well have the upcoming Saga Late Roman game in mind.
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Being interested in gaming and affordable toys myself, I'd still prefer a set which makes better use of the given medium/material. This set is neither as versatile nor as accurate as it could and perhaps should be. I find this slightly surprising, given GB's back catalogue of well-researched and nicely sculpted alternatives in metal as well as the ever-improving standards of (some of) their competitors in the historical plastics market.
If gaming were all about prices, though, we had to include offerings in smaller scales. Pendraken produces a marvellous Late Roman range in 10mm (for the record: about £0.17 per infantry figure), and I'm sure there are advocates of great yet inexpensive figures in 15, 6 or even 2mm. :)
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Nord
I agree that at 50p you get 2 for 1. If you like plastic better than metal then you are well in, it is as always up to each of us as to whether 50p for a plastic figure is better than £1.00 for a metal one in the long run. This debate can go on and on...lol
Cheers
Keith
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Those prices for metals are a bit misleading, I know of a place you can get them much cheaper than that, eg £1.13 to just under a pound depending on how many you buy....lol
Cheers
Keith
So crack on with those late Romans/ early Byzantines.... 👍
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So crack on with those late Romans/ early Byzantines.... 👍
Hear, hear! lol
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With respect to the make up of armoured/non-armoured I was wondering why GB don't sell separate sprues like others do?
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I recently put together some multi-part plastics for a project- I found them quite time consuming to assemble and somewhat fragile. I also worry about plastic deteriorating over time. But I can see that they open up a whole vista of possibilities if one's finances are limited.
On the whole I prefer metal to plastic, but the Perry plastics are the exception to this rule- I love them.
Early Byzantines; super!
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Yes crack on with the early Byzantines. Money waiting....!
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With respect to the make up of armoured/non-armoured I was wondering why GB don't sell separate sprues like others do?
Each spue conatins all the variety of figures (2 shooting archers, 1 armored & 2 unarmored foot).
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Well I have thousands of plastics and never snapped a single thing.
In terms of time, I find them no more time consuming than picking and filing the flash off metals.
As for plastic deterioration, all those polystyrene airfix kits from the seventies seem to be holding up OK? How old are you, or are you succession planning for future generations?
I recently put together some multi-part plastics for a project- I found them quite time consuming to assemble and somewhat fragile. I also worry about plastic deteriorating over time. But I can see that they open up a whole vista of possibilities if one's finances are limited.
On the whole I prefer metal to plastic, but the Perry plastics are the exception to this rule- I love them.
Early Byzantines; super!
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Foundry are 8 for £12 = £1.50 each.
Footsore are 4 for £6 = £1.50 each.
Curteys have a unit deal of 24 for £27 = £1.13 each.
Crusader are 8 for £9 = £1.13 each.
Dunno of any others. Even if you can get just under a pound, it's still twice as much. These prices are more than twice or even thrice as expensive as the GB figures and look a similar standard to me. I reckon my point stands, though eye of the beholder and all that. If I gamed this period I would certainly look at the GB stuff, there's nothing amazingly better available and you certainly cannot beat the price.
The box composition may well have the upcoming Saga Late Roman game in mind.
Don't forget to factor in the large amount of time it takes to get a plastic figure ready to paint. Many of the GB moulds have massive seams, arms that fit poorly and these can take up to an hour per figure to assemble. Others such as Victrix can take even longer.
The seam on a metal figure takes seconds to remove.
Like most people I like the cost of plastic figures in $$$ terms. Having said that I am starting to go off them due to the massive hassle factor due to the time taken to get each figure ready.
Also I am not noticing the "Airfix factor" is creeping into plastic figure - i.e. there are some pretty silly poses popping up now - and they tend to be somewhat basing averse. Just try to get Victoria and GB ranked onto a DBx base.
Of course the solution to this problem was easy for me - stop playing DBx games! lol
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I recently put together some multi-part plastics for a project- I found them quite time consuming to assemble and somewhat fragile. I also worry about plastic deteriorating over time. But I can see that they open up a whole vista of possibilities if one's finances are limited.
On the whole I prefer metal to plastic, but the Perry plastics are the exception to this rule- I love them.
Early Byzantines; super!
I may be wrong, but I understood the perry where going to sculpt early byzantines... is that correct ???????
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Don't forget to factor in the large amount of time it takes to get a plastic figure ready to paint. Many of the GB moulds have massive seams, arms that fit poorly and these can take up to an hour per figure to assemble. Others such as Victrix can take even longer.
The seam on a metal figure takes seconds to remove.
You must be getting much better quality metal castings than I generally receive then :?
It typically takes me ten minutes to clean up a metal miniature - first cut away all the vent-worms and extraneous flash between the legs, and extrusions of misshapen metal around scabbards etc, then scrape away all the obvious mould lines, then whizz away the remaining mould lines and casting imperfections with a wire brush on the Dremel. A good ten minutes to properly clean up a single casting, start to finish.
I can assemble and clean up a plastic figure in a lot less time than that. And assembling plastic figures is fun (well, it is if you're the sort that likes making things from kits - and of course plenty of people aren't... ) Whereas cleaning up metal castings is a chore and a pain in the arse.
Well, to me anyway.
Like most things in the world of miniatures wargaming, it's down to personal preference :)
Just like metal figures, there are better plastic figures, and there are less good plastic figures. The GB plastics, particularly the most recent sets, to my eye are not very good. The Perry, Fireforge and Victrix sets are getting better all the time. But if you really don't like sticking things together, then of course, metals are the answer :)
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You must be getting much better quality metal castings than I generally receive then :?
Probably not. :D We all have manufacturers we avoid like the plague. I love Perry plastics but their metals casting can be obscene. If I have a choice I buy Crusader metals - almost no cleaning at all.
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Have to agree, much as I am a huge fan of the Perrys, the casting quality of their metal figures can leave a lot to be desired. It's one of the reasons why I have largely switched over to plastic nowadays. The figures are cheaper, more fun to create, and - by and large - I find the crispness and detail of the casting quality way ahead of the majority of metal figures. Certainly true in the case of Perry plastics vs Perry metals... :?
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Have to disagree with you, plastics I can clean and assemble in 10-15 minutes, metals just seem a grind. Especially those with the claw hands that you have to fit a weapon in, or even worse drill a hole into. I usually spend half an hour trying to get the metal weapon into the metal claw/hole, the just snip it off in frustration and use a spare plastic bit. Only metals I have really enjoyed working on were Drabant Miniatures, or the old GW stuff. Hey ho, we all like different things.
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I like them both, though I agree some metals are a pain to clean up especially when the mould lines go down the middle of the face!
For Victrix plastics it pays to follow instructions for assembly - hard for someone as impatient as me. Quality is excellent - they go well with Aventine metals. From my perspective I like quality figures and will mix and match plastics/metals accordingly. Good to see what others are doing in this regard.
In another recent thread on this Forum I see that the GB Late Romans have come up very well. They have a good campaign feel about them.
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I don't have any problems cleaning mould lines etc.
Just take my glasses off and they are gone.
No worries.
Also, once they are painted and on the table I can only just make out the figures even with my glasses on nowadays :~}
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I don't have any problems cleaning mould lines etc.
Just take my glasses off and they are gone.
No worries.
Also, once they are painted and on the table I can only just make out the figures even with my glasses on nowadays :~}
Lol, we are all smitten with the curse of full screen images of our tiny lead / plastic men. Once they are in use on a table, the reality becomes an impression of a base, a shield and a colourful hat...
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North star stated stocking these
http://northstarfigures.com/prod.php?prod=8277