Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Colonial Adventures => Topic started by: keeper on 19 December 2008, 03:38:07 PM
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I hope that this is the appopriate board for this kind of thing, but this is one of the Christmas presents that I am giving this year, to my wife's Uncle, who is well into his Zulu war stuff.
It is supposed to be a section of the northen mealie bag wall at the drift which was subject to the second zulu attack of the encounter. I've used 6mm sized figures from Baccus6mm (http://www.baccus6mm.com). Details aren't perfect - and the grass is a little on the green side, I think, but overall I'm really quite pleased with the way its come out.
Overall size of the piece is about 4" by 6" (although I've not measured it exactly). Apologies for the slightly fuzzy photos in places, I've not yet figured out how to manually increase the f-stop on this camera.
Your comments and feedback are most welcome!
(http://www.cheddarmongers.org/prod/gallery2/d/19517-1/right.jpg) (http://www.cheddarmongers.org/prod/pic/keeper40k/6mm/Diorama/right.jpg.html)
(http://www.cheddarmongers.org/prod/gallery2/d/19521-1/left.jpg) (http://www.cheddarmongers.org/prod/pic/keeper40k/6mm/Diorama/left.jpg.html)
(http://www.cheddarmongers.org/prod/gallery2/d/19524-1/back.jpg) (http://www.cheddarmongers.org/prod/pic/keeper40k/6mm/Diorama/back.jpg.html)
(http://www.cheddarmongers.org/prod/gallery2/d/19527-1/front.jpg) (http://www.cheddarmongers.org/prod/pic/keeper40k/6mm/Diorama/front.jpg.html)
(http://www.cheddarmongers.org/prod/gallery2/d/19530-1/Thin_red_line.jpg) (http://www.cheddarmongers.org/prod/pic/keeper40k/6mm/Diorama/Thin_red_line.jpg.html)
(http://www.cheddarmongers.org/prod/gallery2/d/19533-1/hoarde.jpg) (http://www.cheddarmongers.org/prod/pic/keeper40k/6mm/Diorama/hoarde.jpg.html)
(http://www.cheddarmongers.org/prod/gallery2/d/19536-1/Zulus.jpg) (http://www.cheddarmongers.org/prod/pic/keeper40k/6mm/Diorama/Zulus.jpg.html)
(http://www.cheddarmongers.org/prod/gallery2/d/19539-1/Zulu_view.jpg) (http://www.cheddarmongers.org/prod/pic/keeper40k/6mm/Diorama/Zulu_view.jpg.html)
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Appropriate board? Check.
Great idea for a present.
I don't think the grass is too green. Summer (which January is in) in eastern South Africa is the time when it rains the most, I believe, so the grass would be at its greenest. And it can be a very green country indeed, when it's been rained on.
The movies that show Zulus charging across sun-baked brown grass are probably the ones who are wrong, not you.
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Very nice! I'm always surprised at how much detail there is on those Baccus figures.
Before you box it up and wrap it though, in the top picture, the soldier at the furthest right on the barricade appears to have a bent rifle - you might want to straighten that out before you present it.
Otherwise, I bet he'll be really pleased with that, it's a lovely little piece, plenty of drama and movement. Well done, mate. :)
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Excellent.
And the grass is just about perfect!
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I'd paint the helmets more Kahki, they look too white in these pictures, although that may just be the camera here. The troops dyed them Kahki using tea-leaves whilst on campagin in Africa, and a Zulu War buff may notice this...
Aside from that it looks great! What are the mealie bags made out of?
"Sir, sentries report the Zulus have gone. All of them. It's a miracle."
"If it's a miracle, Colour Sergeant, it's a short chamber Boxer-Henry point-four-five caliber miracle."
"And a bayonet sir, with some guts behind it."
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I'm sure your wife's uncle will love such a present.
I know I would :D
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I'd paint the helmets more Kahki, they look too white in these pictures, although that may just be the camera here. The troops dyed them Kahki using tea-leaves whilst on campagin in Africa, and a Zulu War buff may notice this...
At Rorke's drift the British soldiers wore regulation white helmets with regimental plates as evidenced by the eyewitness reports of the defenders, one of who's plates deflected a Zulu bullet. They were on garrison duty, not campaign. At Islandwana, the day before the soldiers in the column also wore white helmets, archeological evidence has uncovered many from the battlefield,the custom of dying them didn't start until later.
Paint your hats whatever colour you want or whatever colour the recipient is expecting :) I am amazes by the atmosphere generated by such little chaps, very good work indeed. We need a 'thumbs up' of 'Froth' smiley for stuff like this.
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At Rorke's drift the British soldiers wore regulation white helmets with regimental plates as evidenced by the eyewitness reports of the defenders, one of who's plates deflected a Zulu bullet. They were on garrison duty, not campaign. At Islandwana, the day before the soldiers in the column also wore white helmets, archeological evidence has uncovered many from the battlefield,the custom of dying them didn't start until later.
Greetings All - this is my first post to the LAF, although I have passed by occasionally in the past, and hello Paul specifically. Keeper - great little diorama! Not wanting to hi-jack or misdirect the thread but can I just say that that is quite a significant piece of information Paul (i.e. the certainty of it); although I have several books on the Zulu War (and Isandlwhana & Rorke’s Drift specifically) I hadn’t fully appreciated or 'twigged' to that fact as I don’t recall any of them ‘specifically’ stating that everyone definitely had regulation white helmets – although I do recall the accounts you mention about the helmet plate and such. The general line I’ve found in sources always being all troops in the 1879 Zulu Campaign (barring the very newest arrivals) discoloured their helmets with tea, coffee, and most commonly ox dung, and that this was a carry over from the behaviour of troops in the earlier Xhosa wars, and it's assumed the 24th all did it as they had been there long enough to have had opportunity, etc?
The reason I comment is I have about 50 x 28mm Foundry British (for a couple of TSATF units & a Command group) all finished and painted up as 24th Foot with White Helmets, and after Christmas I was planning on basing them up and staining/discolouring their helmets (with a couple of Ink Washes of different shades), only reason I haven't already is I have been busy with too many projects at once!
:o
So you may have just saved me from a bit of a major blunder Paul despite having (supposedly) done a reasonable amount of research, and next time I am reading up on the Zulu War I'll have to revist those references!
So looks like you've got them spot on right Keeper!
Cheers,
John
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There are no absolutes :)
I have no doubt some soldiers at Islandwana had stained helmets, some would have had non regulation kit of all forms, that's the nature of being posted overseas, even with the army's customary enforcement of uniformity (for obvious reasons)
At Rorke's Drift I'm not so sure. Bromhead was there to keep him away from the front, the powers that be were well aware of his deafness and the problems this might cause. There was no reason for him to let the standards of his men 'slip', especially with another officer, Chard, visiting. Everybody writes reports on everything in the army ;)
Personally I like smart British soldiers and so prefer white helmets for all things.
My guiding principle is, as always, 'my toys, my choice' and recommend that others do the same.
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Hello Mycenius!
I had also assumed that they all wore tea-stained helmets until several years ago, when I got to visit the South Wales Borderers' Museum. Paul has it spot-on [was there ever any doubt]. Remarkably the makers of "Zulu" actually got it right :o lol.
Hopefully you will be able to post pics of your figures soon! If they are as good as your Egyptian avatar pic, they will be worth seeing.
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Paul Indeed, Indeed. And Smart is Good. 8)
GM - Yes, Yes, and by god man, I do love that Movie! :-*
(Although having my mother go on about Stanley Baker being her No.2 Heartthrob - after Charleton Heston - is, well, you get the picture...)!
P.S. Absolutely Love the Firefly Avatar! ;)
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I had also assumed that they all wore tea-stained helmets until several years ago, when I got to visit the South Wales Borderers' Museum. Paul has it spot-on [was there ever any doubt]. Remarkably the makers of "Zulu" actually got it right :o lol.
Awfully sorry old boy, but here you are incorrect.
The defenders of Rorke’s Drift were 'B' coy, 2nd battalion of the 24th regiment (2nd Warwickshires) (plus various soldiers from other units, such as the RE and Natal Police). They were only renamed the South Wales Borderers later, after the war.
2nd Bttn had arrived later than the 1st, having been in South Africa since 1878. Whilst many in 1st Bttn had damaged or even lost their helmets, and stood in heavily patched up clothes, the 2nd was slightly smarter in appearance.
However, to quote Osprey’s 'The Zulu War 1879' (Ian Knight);
"...they were issued with a white 'foreign service helmet', which in South Africa was usually worn without the brass regimental badge on the front, and dulled with tea or coffee to offer a less obvious target."
Now, whilst some soldiers did wear the white helmet, and I'm sure some also wore the brass plate (In fact I’ve just discovered a rather nifty photo of the 99th crossing into Zululand, many of which have the plate worn), these were a minority during the war.
This practice of staining was rarely followed by officers, however.
I do hope this clears up the (rather minor) point...
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...these were a minority during the war.
But do you mean that as a general statement covering the (whole Zulu) war, or specifically to the 2nd Btn/24th Foot at Rorkes Drift & Isandlwhana at the start? As noted I'm working on modelling a representation of part of the latter specifically, and was working under that impression (from the book you quote among others) until comments as noted above regarding preponderance of white helmets, etc... To me it's not a 'minor' issue in that it has a significant impact on the appearance of my troops and I would like to at least be confident whether I should just stain a handful for variety, or the majority (barring Officers & Senior NCOs)... so appreciate any further clarification on whether we are talking general or specifc or direction to definitive sources (if there are such things)...
:)
Cheers!
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Quoting an Osprey puts one on very shaky ground, particularly when it contradicts a regimental museum and photographs from the time :?
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I had also assumed that they all wore tea-stained helmets until several years ago, when I got to visit the South Wales Borderers' Museum. Paul has it spot-on [was there ever any doubt]. Remarkably the makers of "Zulu" actually got it right :o lol.
Awfully sorry old boy, but here you are incorrect.
The defenders of Rorke’s Drift were 'B' coy, 2nd battalion of the 24th regiment (2nd Warwickshires) (plus various soldiers from other units, such as the RE and Natal Police). They were only renamed the South Wales Borderers later, after the war.
Well........they were certainly the 2nd Warwicks in 1879 (ftp://1879) - every history book says so and I've read most of them concerning the Zulu War. I've been fascinated by the Zulus ever since my Dad took me to see Zulu at the local pictures in the late 60's. Being an old fart, I can't recall the exact year, as I tend to forget dates more recent than 1901 ;)
They became the South Wales Borderers after the Zulu War of course [in the Cardwell Reforms, IIRC] and were subsequently amalgamated into the Royal Regiment of Wales. Their Regimental museum is located at Brecon, these days:
http://www.rrw.org.uk/museums/index.htm
and there is also another in Cardiff, dealing with the other former regiments:
http://www.rrw.org.uk/museums/cardiff/about.htm
There are some very good html factsheets available from the first URL.
Here is the one on south Africa:
http://www.rrw.org.uk/museums/brecon/fact_sheets/5.htm
So, I wasn't incorrect as such, I was just mentioning their museum, which by the way, is excellent and well worth a visit :)
I may well be a fool, but I can remember some basic historical facts ;) lol
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...these were a minority during the war.
But do you mean that as a general statement covering the (whole Zulu) war, or specifically to the 2nd Btn/24th Foot at Rorkes Drift & Isandlwhana at the start? As noted I'm working on modelling a representation of part of the latter specifically, and was working under that impression (from the book you quote among others) until comments as noted above regarding preponderance of white helmets, etc... To me it's not a 'minor' issue in that it has a significant impact on the appearance of my troops and I would like to at least be confident whether I should just stain a handful for variety, or the majority (barring Officers & Senior NCOs)... so appreciate any further clarification on whether we are talking general or specifc or direction to definitive sources (if there are such things)...
:)
Cheers!
Yes, the vast majority of troops during the war had stained helmets, baring Officers and senior NCO's. I'm not too sure on the irregulars and axillaries (Natal mounted Police etc), however. I'd stain almost all of them if I was you, and (if you're up to it) change some of the helmets in 1st bttn to straw hats etc, as they had been campaigning for some time and were in quite a state (there are historical drawings to back this up).
Quoting an Osprey puts one on very shaky ground, particularly when it contradicts a regimental museum and photographs from the time :?
The book is written by Ian Knight, who is one of the most respected Anglo-Zulu war historians. I've many other books on the conflict which can quote similar lines, as well as photographs showing stained etc helmets. All the evidence I can gather shows that most troops during the war did indeed stain their helmets, along with other camoflage techniques (such as covering uniforms in dust etc).
Edit: That's 10 posts commenting on the colour of hats...and some people say I waste my time on the internet lol
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The archeaological evidence from the battle grounds turns up lots of helmet plates.
So they were either often worn on the helmets despite regulations, or the guys carried them on their person after they removed them from the helmets.
anyway.. keeper... well done - good job- again ;)
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All the evidence I can gather shows that most troops during the war did indeed stain their helmets, along with other camoflage techniques (such as covering uniforms in dust etc).
Edit: That's 10 posts commenting on the colour of hats...and some people say I waste my time on the internet lol
11 now, well not so much the colour as the "why".
I don't believe they would stain their helmets [and apply dust] as camouflage.
A] the British army were always proud of their red coats and many believed [erroneously] that "savages" were scared of it, which was certainly true during the Sudan wars from 1884, when the vast majority were in some form of khaki.
B] the vast majority of British troops fought in close order lines, or more frequently squares. It was believed by the Victorians that the African peoples in the 19thC had better eyesight than Europeans and AFAIK, this was true, so why bother to camouflage large formations of slow-moving troops.
I don't think it's a waste of time if incorrect info is believed to have been posted and people are only trying to get things right. That's why we love history, isn't it, because facts are so interesting ;)
[edited for spelling mistakes >:( ]
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All the evidence I can gather shows that most troops during the war did indeed stain their helmets, along with other camoflage techniques (such as covering uniforms in dust etc).
Edit: That's 10 posts commenting on the colour of hats...and some people say I waste my time on the internet lol
11 now, well not so much the colour as the "why".
I don't believe they would stain their helmets [and apply dust] as camouflage.
A] the British army were always proud of their red coats and many believed [erroneously] that "savages" were scared of it, which was certainly true during the Sudan wars from 1884, when the vast majority were in some form of khaki.
B] the vast majority of British troops fought in close order lines, or more frequently squares. It was believed by the Victorians that the African peoples in the 19thC had better eyesight than Europeans and AFAIK, this was true, so why bother to camouflage large formations of slow-moving troops.
I don't think it's a waste of time if incorrect info is believed to have been posted and people are only trying to get things right. That's why we love history, isn't it, because facts are so interesting ;)
[edited for spelling mistakes >:( ]
Firstly, the average soldier probably cared more about his life than his coat - hence, camoflage. I've also read some where (but don't quote me on this) that the red in the troopers uniforms often ran to pink in the rains. And plus, as I have already stated, almost every source I can find points to this. For example:
(http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc183/answeris42/PC030138.jpg)
- Taken some months after the battle, but does show members of the 2nd/24th. Note the helmets...
(http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc183/answeris42/PC030139.jpg)
sketch of two 1st bttn privates, just before the war. Note the straw hat and state of uniforms.
And on the subject of fighting in formations, the troops at Isandalwana fought in open order, with as much as 2 feet between each man (surveys of the site have backed this up), which was one of the main contrubutions to the defeat there.
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Appropriate hat colour or not, very impressive figures.
At first glance I thought they were 15mm
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Firstly, the average soldier probably cared more about his life than his coat - hence, camoflage. I've also read some where (but don't quote me on this) that the red in the troopers uniforms often ran to pink in the rains. And plus, as I have already stated, almost every source I can find points to this. For example:
And on the subject of fighting in formations, the troops at Isandalwana fought in open order, with as much as 2 feet between each man (surveys of the site have backed this up), which was one of the main contrubutions to the defeat there.
I really don't want to get into an argument here, but suffice to say that as I stated earlier, a large formation of men - ie battalion of approx 600 men would not be able to camouflage itself in the conditions found in Zululand. It would be particularly pointless, as the Zulus would have sent out scouts, whose fieldcraft was vastly superior to the average Tommy's. The Zulus could and did use the local topography to their advantage, but this never happened with regular British infantry units.
The infantry had to stay in close order or they would be destroyed by the faster-moving and much more deadly Zulus. Two feet between each man is not open order. Maybe you meant 2 metres, which is nearer to "open order". In the modern British army, each man marches in line or column at 1 arm's distance between his neighbours - usually maintained by each man thrusting his right arm out, with fist clenched to touch the man on his right on the shoulder. Indeed, you probably need about two feet to perform small-arms drill safely.
At Isandhlwana, the British army found itself out-manouvered over-stretched and forced to fight in a defensive position not of it's choosing, hence any unusually large gaps between files. It was certainly not typical of battles against the Zulus. Ordinarily they would be in close order.
Either way, 600 men is a very large formation and extraordinarily difficult to camouflage - even with today's technology.
I am not arguing against their uniforms becoming shabby very rapidly and obviously field modifications would become increasingly necessary when many miles away from supply depots. Even in the modern [or relatively modern] British army of the 1980s, most of us would have a large number of non-regulation items when on exercise or operationally. It's what soldiers do and indeed, have always done, to make life more comfortable and soldiering more efficient.
so, like I said, I've no wish to argue, but practical experience of life in the army, allied with extensive reading of history tends to make me think you have mis-interpreted the evidence.
Sorry, no offence intended here and I'm trying to keep to the rules and spirit of the LAF :)
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Firstly, the average soldier probably cared more about his life than his coat - hence, camoflage. I've also read some where (but don't quote me on this) that the red in the troopers uniforms often ran to pink in the rains. And plus, as I have already stated, almost every source I can find points to this. For example:
And on the subject of fighting in formations, the troops at Isandalwana fought in open order, with as much as 2 feet between each man (surveys of the site have backed this up), which was one of the main contrubutions to the defeat there.
I really don't want to get into an argument here, but suffice to say that as I stated earlier, a large formation of men - ie battalion of approx 600 men would not be able to camouflage itself in the conditions found in Zululand. It would be particularly pointless, as the Zulus would have sent out scouts, whose fieldcraft was vastly superior to the average Tommy's. The Zulus could and did use the local topography to their advantage, but this never happened with regular British infantry units.
The infantry had to stay in close order or they would be destroyed by the faster-moving and much more deadly Zulus. Two feet between each man is not open order. Maybe you meant 2 metres, which is nearer to "open order". In the modern British army, each man marches in line or column at 1 arm's distance between his neighbours - usually maintained by each man thrusting his right arm out, with fist clenched to touch the man on his right on the shoulder. Indeed, you probably need about two feet to perform small-arms drill safely.
At Isandhlwana, the British army found itself out-manouvered over-stretched and forced to fight in a defensive position not of it's choosing, hence any unusually large gaps between files. It was certainly not typical of battles against the Zulus. Ordinarily they would be in close order.
Either way, 600 men is a very large formation and extraordinarily difficult to camouflage - even with today's technology.
I am not arguing against their uniforms becoming shabby very rapidly and obviously field modifications would become increasingly necessary when many miles away from supply depots. Even in the modern [or relatively modern] British army of the 1980s, most of us would have a large number of non-regulation items when on exercise or operationally. It's what soldiers do and indeed, have always done, to make life more comfortable and soldiering more efficient.
so, like I said, I've no wish to argue, but practical experience of life in the army, allied with extensive reading of history tends to make me think you have mis-interpreted the evidence.
Sorry, no offence intended here and I'm trying to keep to the rules and spirit of the LAF :)
No offence taken at all old thing.
Now firstly, yes I did indeed mean 2 meters, although I'm quoting from memory here so it may be different from this (possibly larger, but I can't remember, I'll check later). I believe this large distance is due to the uselessness of the senior officers and the intelligence present at Isandlwana (Pulleine, commanding, was not a combat officer). Anyhow, I digress.
By camouflage I did not mean trying to cover up a whole battalion. Rather, the average trooper was trying to make himself (and most importantly his head) less conspicuous in a firefight. A white helmet is a lot easier to see than a Khaki one when one takes a quick glance, especially in a landscape that consisted of brown and green.
I don't think I've misinterpreted the sources here. The point I am making is this; the vast majority of British troopers dyed their helmets brown using tea or coffee, in order to make themselves less conspicuous on the battlefield. In previous campaigns the British were forced into running battles with natives, often skirmishes in dense foliage ( the Xhosa wars were much like this), and the soldiers were taking the experience of these fights into the Zulu campaign with them, expecting more of the same. When they fought in combats such as this they wanted to be as inconspicuous as possible, and so dyed their helmets, not knowing that the Zulu fought so differently from what they had experienced. And most of what I can dig up seems to agree with me here.
here's an intersting site I recently found;
http://www.kwazulu.co.uk/fact-fiction.html
Doesn't mention hats, though...
On a side note, have you seen Zulu Dawn? It springs to mind as I was watching it only the other day. They're all wearing dyed hats... (although the film also tells us that the British fought in ranks, they couldn't open ammo boxes and Pulliene ordered the flag to be saved, unsheathed, so I'm not using that as an example here...)
Edit; I'm off on an Xmas spree tommorow, so this'll be my last post for a week or so.
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On a side note, have you seen Zulu Dawn? It springs to mind as I was watching it only the other day. They're all wearing dyed hats... (although the film also tells us that the British fought in ranks...
FWIW - I wonder if it actually possibly shows both - there are scenes which seem to clearly imply the troops are in some form of open order and/or have a skirmisher line out in front... If you allow for the 'cinematic' condensing of the scene and so on it may well be that some sub-units are depicted in open order?
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Firstly, thanks to everyone for the positive feedback - makes me feel a lot better after spending the weekend made up with cold! :)
I'd better get the hat issue out of the way. My apologies for sparking a debate on hat colour - at least people stay civil on the LAF! The last similar discussion I read elsewhere on the colour of the uniform buttons of minor German states of the Napoleonic era was not nearly as polite!!
When I was looking into the colour of the hats, I found some evidence they were white and some evidence that they were routinely stained with tea - but nothing specific for Rorke's Drift, so I compromised and shaded them with tea colour and highlighted them with white, so that they could be seen either way :D But there are some other compromises I had to make too - the British collars don't have any facing colour on them, and the sheilds of the zulus would not be quite so mixed up in design. Just some of the adjustments you have to make at this scale.
@JollyBob: Thanks for the spot on the rifle! I'm going be cutting a custom foam insert for the piece, so I'll check everything like that before I finally box it up!
@answer_is_42: The mealie bags are just rolls of ProCreate marked with a craft knife. Not exactly high-art, but I like the effect. Took me two days to find evidence of the size of mealie bags, so that I knew approximately how big to make them! :)
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Firstly, thanks to everyone for the positive feedback - makes me feel a lot better after spending the weekend made up with cold! :)
I'd better get the hat issue out of the way. My apologies for sparking a debate on hat colour - at least people stay civil on the LAF! The last similar discussion I read elsewhere on the colour of the uniform buttons of minor German states of the Napoleonic era was not nearly as polite!!
When I was looking into the colour of the hats, I found some evidence they were white and some evidence that they were routinely stained with tea - but nothing specific for Rorke's Drift, so I compromised and shaded them with tea colour and highlighted them with white, so that they could be seen either way :D But there are some other compromises I had to make too - the British collars don't have any facing colour on them, and the sheilds of the zulus would not be quite so mixed up in design. Just some of the adjustments you have to make at this scale.
@JollyBob: Thanks for the spot on the rifle! I'm going be cutting a custom foam insert for the piece, so I'll check everything like that before I finally box it up!
@answer_is_42: The mealie bags are just rolls of ProCreate marked with a craft knife. Not exactly high-art, but I like the effect. Took me two days to find evidence of the size of mealie bags, so that I knew approximately how big to make them! :)
Haha! you could of posted this a couple of weeks ago and saved us all alot of typing... ::)
Did he like it?
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Yeah, I'll remember to include more of my research next time ;)
My wife's uncle loves it! :) I might have to do something "Navaho" (sp?) related for next Christmas, though!