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Miniatures Adventure => Pikes, Muskets and Flouncy Shirts => Topic started by: Kommando_J on June 19, 2016, 09:19:29 PM
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As part of a long standing project for the ECW m in need of a good set of skirmish rules, nothing too big i'd say 40 figures on the table as the upper limit in terms of sccale but more around 15 a side.
Something with less a focus on units and more about characters/heroes with special rules, rules for preachers as well as a petard are a must.
I've heard good things about Donnybrook and En Guarde as well as Witchfinder General, which would people recommend?
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I have played Donnybrook a few times and really enjoyed it. Thirty to forty figures for a basic game and as many characters as units (although some character types must be with a unit.) It uses a very simple dice type d6, d8, d10 for units depending on their level of experience / training but with enough special rules for different factions to keep things interesting. Very quick to get playing and soon only need to refer to the quick reference sheet, it does use card activation for units and heroes/characters which isn't everyone's cup of tea.
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For that size I'd second Donnybrook. Its a fun, slightly chaotic (well very chaotic) game that I think captures the flavor and fun of the period in question (even if it was designed for a few years later). Has a couple things you'll need to buy in too (card activation, different dice for different units etc...) but a damn good time. Also would suggest using Lion or Dragon Rampant with very slight modifications. Again works well with the scale of game your looking for.
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Another vote here for Donybrook, for all the reasons stated above. Also, it's a gorgeous book in it's own right, fully of eye candy with plenty of gorgeous piccies for inspiration.
I really wanted to like Witchfinder General but got a bit miffed with the sheer number of counters, markers & tokens that end up littering the tabletop. I'm sure there's ways around minimising them but my enthusiasm for the rules fell off so never bothered to pursue it.
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There is also a Renaissance era version for Songs of Blades and Heroes that might do the job, it's called Flashing Steel.
http://www.ganeshagames.net/index.php?cPath=1_25&osCsid=rcsc79ntr3l6cmbqia7f7v9ha3 (http://www.ganeshagames.net/index.php?cPath=1_25&osCsid=rcsc79ntr3l6cmbqia7f7v9ha3)
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If you want more control and less randomness and chaos you could do a lot worse than trying Witchfinder General.
Leave out the witches and werewolves and there is a great little ECW skirmish set left for you. Which even simulates the pike and shot combo on a skirmish level very well.
En Garde! by Osprey is well suited for less figures and more detail attached to combat.
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I'm hearing good points for all three...which isn't making things easier lol.
Does en garde have rules for priests?
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En Garde has an addendum that covers priests and witch hunters (priests are more of a magician in these rules) as well as witches, the undead, thieves and barbarians. The main focus of the rules is not on these fantastic characters so are handled with minimum detail.
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This chap does an ECW version of Lion Rampant
http://arlequinsworld.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/lion-rampant-for-english-civil-war.html
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If you can try getting your hands on an old copy try "File Leader" and "Once Upon A Time In The West Country" by Pete Berry for Partizan Press. Full of character and very playable.
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This chap does an ECW version of Lion Rampant
http://arlequinsworld.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/lion-rampant-for-english-civil-war.html
Watch him though, he's a wrong'un. ;)
Thanks for the plug... Dan Mersey and Michael Leck are actually bringing out a Pike and Shot version of Lion Rampant "Pikeman's Lament" in the New Year. Like LR though, they will be unit based, which is not what the OP wanted.
I'm also unsure as to whether the OP wants 'Preachers' in a historical sense, or if he intends to include supernatural elements. My recommendations tend to be for the latter, but strip that away and you still have decent skirmish rules in the first two.
My favourites are, in descending order of popularity with me;
Witchfinder General is good but as Stavros said, too many counters for my taste. However it is more in line with the parameters set out by the OP. Truth told though, when you strip away the window dressing, the actual fighting rules are nothing that special... which is not necessarily a bad thing.
Pike & Shot & Zombies is also a good set and somewhat in line with the criteria. 'Witchcraft' and 'Religion' are handled in realistic terms too... they don't actually do anything, but belief in them is rampant. So while you can't actually call forth demons, if people believe you can, you could be in trouble with the local torch-bearing mob. At their core the skirmish rules are good and there is a whole host of support material available for the setting; if you like 'immersive' and expansive systems you'll probably like these. If you don't like zombies, you actually don't need to include them.
I was really impressed with En Garde as a low figure 'historical' rule set, but you'd have to expand on the rules contained in them for anything supernatural if your focus is on that sort of game. However they are iirc, the cheapest of these three sets. You'll have to build your own setting around them and add rules to suit, but you'll have a damn good set of fighting rules at their core. Adding special rules in these should not be rocket science either.
I can't offer an opinion on Donnybrook and the others, as I don't have them. My opinions aside, everyone has things they like and don't like in a game, so either look for online reviews of play, or start with one set and see how they work out for you.
Good Luck! :)
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This chap does an ECW version of Lion Rampant
http://arlequinsworld.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/lion-rampant-for-english-civil-war.html
I have used these and really enjoyed them but as the author says, it is unit based (and very detail-light, which may not appeal to you in a skirmish game).
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To clarfiy on the preacher comment, I was hoping for rules for preacher characters/heroes that can use rhetoric to whip a mob into a frenzy as my project involves clubmen and fights in/over churches heavily.
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To clarfiy on the preacher comment, I was hoping for rules for preacher characters/heroes that can use rhetoric to whip a mob into a frenzy as my project involves clubmen and fights in/over churches heavily.
That being the case, Donnybrook is what you need.
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... I'm not disparaging them for it, but aren't Donnybrook very much unit/leader based? i.e. in the same ball park as Lion Rampant, rather than single figure activation like En Garde?
Personally they sound like the sort of rules I would be looking to use for a similar set-up as Kommando_J, as leaders and characters stand apart from the masses, who are in small groups... or how it seems to be from the reviews I've read.
Another 'unit' rule set that could be adapted are Sharp Practice 2. They are very much for the Black Powder Era, but it wouldn't take much to adapt them at all and there are character rules, 'specialist' rules, and even a campaign system, all in the one rule book.
It would need someone familiar with both sets to give a balanced assessment of which are better, but in principle you don't really need every musketeer or clubman to have a mind of his own, just their leaders however junior they may be surely?
:)
I have used these and really enjoyed them but as the author says, it is unit based (and very detail-light, which may not appeal to you in a skirmish game).
I'm glad you and anyone else liked them, thanks! I'm not sure 'author' is right though, I merely messed around with what was already there.
;)
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Donnybrook allows you to buy troops using force points, for each point you can buy 4 elite foot 8 drilled foot or 12 recruit foot. For the same point you have 3 elite mounted, 6 drilled mounted or 9 recruit mounted.
Each force has a free hero level character that commands the little army, and a special character for every unit choice you make, ( these are the same morale level as the units chosen.
A basic game of Donnybrook has 4 points of troops so a small force might consist of
Two detachments of 12 recruit musketeers.
One detachment of 8 drilled pikemen.
One detachment of 6 drilled mounted dragoons.
With the above force you get the free hero plus two drilled and two recruit level special characters.
The special characters have special abilities and these change depending on the faction you choose, factions range from the normal military faction through civilian mob, Covenanters,Cultists, highlanders, outlaws etc etc. (There's lots of factions).
The rules can be played with all the extra rules or none of them, it's up to you.
There's even a scenario in the book that allows you to fight with a warband rather than a skirmish force which means you fight with 1 figure units.
Lastly characters may be attached to units or not it's up to you and units are made up of between three to twelve figures, so if you buy two points worth or recruits ( 24 figures) you can organise them into any number of units between 3 and 12. So 4 units of 6 or 3 units of 8 or one unit of 12 and two units of 6 etc etc.
Clear as mud lol, but I hope it gives some idea of the size of games.
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The above all typed while watching Wales v Belgium, women are not the only ones who can multi task lol ;D
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''Another 'unit' rule set that could be adapted are Sharp Practice 2. They are very much for the Black Powder Era, but it wouldn't take much to adapt them at all and there are character rules, 'specialist' rules, and even a campaign system, all in the one rule book.''
I'd love to see a well done supplement, I just love the fact that character/vignette-style miniatures can have gameplay uses as support options.
''but in principle you don't really need every musketeer or clubman to have a mind of his own, just their leaders however junior they may be surely?''
Exactly, think the old lord of the rings game before it went massed battles.
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I'm glad you and anyone else liked them, thanks! I'm not sure 'author' is right though, I merely messed around with what was already there.
;)
"Author" or whatever... ;)
Another set that might adapt well is Muskets and Tomahawks. Card driven, unit based and has leadership traits/motives.