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Miniatures Adventure => Pikes, Muskets and Flouncy Shirts => Topic started by: Captain Gideon on 13 July 2016, 10:52:03 PM
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I've been into the English Civil War for sometime now.
First off painting the Foot and Horse Units are slowly coming along and I have some information on what Foot and Horse Units for both sides but I need help.
Now what I need is as follows:
List of what Foot and Horse fought on both sides
A good source of Flag information for both sides as well
Any help you can provide will be grateful.
Please post info here or just PM me.
Thanks
Michael
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Hi Michael,
List of what Foot and Horse fought on both sides
I am not sure what you mean here? If you mean the names of the units then this is a useful site - http://wiki.bcw-project.org/start (http://wiki.bcw-project.org/start). This is very much a work in progress but also you should bear in mind that we really have very little information on the units from this period.
If you don't mean this then what do you mean?
A good source of Flag information for both sides as well
The above website have the flags for some units but again the flags of the vast majority of units are unknown. Unfortunately even quite a lot of those 'known' are really just made up by some one.
Have a look at the documents on the page (http://www.baccus6mm.com/PaintingGuides/ECW/ (http://www.baccus6mm.com/PaintingGuides/ECW/)) as they give a good overview of what we actually know.
I hope this helps
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Caliver books provide an excellent suggested book list for those getting into ECW. The best thing I can suggest is that you have a look at this and then you can start properly digging into this fascinating period.
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I'd second Sparrow's suggestion of the Caliver books. They have an excellent series, depending on how deep you want to get into the period.
I'm curious though, do you have a particular period - 1st, 2nd or 3rd CW in mind, England v Scotland, or a particular locality/region of the UK where your interests lie? That would greatly help narrow down the flags and armies/forces involved...
What sort of wargaming do you want to do - big set piece battles, or smaller scale clashes and skirmishes, sieges? somewhat akin to the Medieval encounters listed in the Lion Rampant rules?
Also the figure selection greatly depends on what period since the equipment changed quite rapidly...
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As well as the existing suggestions, may I recommend the Sealed Knot web site. They do ECW re-enactment & have useful information/photos etc.
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For instance,
when I dabbled in ECW a few years ago, having relocated from staunch Eastern Association East Anglia to the eastern edge of Surrey, I became particularly interested in Gen. Sir Will. Waller and the Southern Association and Parliamentarian activity around the Surrey, Sussex, and Hampshire area. This included the siege of Basing house and clashes around Arundel, Southampton, Farnham, Winchester and Alton.
This significantly dictated the units I wished to represent and helped determine the coat colours I used and the ensigns I made. It also helped determine the likely opposition and in turn their uniforms and colours.
The second major factor was the rules used and the proportions of infantry types, pike and shot etc. There's nothing worse than finding you've collected the wrong proportion of figures :(
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First off WFGamers I was looking for a list of the units both Foot and Horse that fought for the Royalist side and those that fought for Parliment.
To expand upon that I was looking for the name of the commander for each unit and if at all possible the name of the Regt for example the only one I have which Partizan Press did a book in 1987 was called The Farnham Greencoats Samuel Jones Regiment of Foot.
I understand about many of the Flags for the units and that there's no information for many Flags and I know that whatever units I finally choose may have made up Flags.
One such unit which is a made up Regt now the coat color is a Blue color(Lt Blue of a sort) well I was trying to figure out what unit I wanted it to be so a friend suggested that I name it for myself or something like that.
So here's what I did I came up with the title Lord Price The Earl of Folsom and the Flag which a friend is working on will be a Grey Flag with the image of Michael the ArchAngel on it,and I also painted up a mounted figure to be me on the battlefield as well.
Now I don't know what to call my Foot Unit yet maybe you can help me out on that and the color of the Flag I've not fully decided that it will be Grey yet.
A little background of the above my last name is Price and I live in San Francisco CA in the U.S. and the street I live on is Folsom St so that's how I came up with the above info.
Sparrow I have a fair number of English Civil War books at this time it's a mix of Osprey and other books including some of the Partizan Press books including a fair number of the English Civil War notes and queries books.
sukhe_bator regarding a particular period mostly I've started with the 1st Civil War since many of the books deal with that period like Osprey's Edgehill and Naseby books but I also have Marston Moor as well so you might say that I have interest in the whole thing.
As for Wargaming over the years I've gamed in many different Historical periods like the Napoleonic Period,Ancients and Samurai as well as several Naval periods.
Over the years I've gamed big Battles like Waterloo and Aspern-Essling and I've also done smaller clashes and skirmishes but sieges I've never done.
With the Engish Civil War which I've only done(so far)one game where each side had 8 or 9 Foot Units,4 Horse Units and some Artillery and this is the limit that we've done since the table limits what we can do but I'm happy with this size.
The scale I use is 28mm and the rules are Warlord Games Pike and Shotte(I think that's what they're called).
Now I don't mind going somewhat larger it all depends on the table size.
Finally this all came about because of the movie Cromwell with Richard Harris after seeing it several times I got a copy of the movie and thought this might be an interesting period to work in plus the fact that the figures are bigger and easier to paint than 15mm although I'm not painting wiz but the figures are'nt bad and I do like painting them.
You could say that this is an ongoing thing and I'm not finished yet.
Michael
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Quick thought - get a copy of the last version of the Forlorn Hope rules. You may/may not like the rules (I do as it happens) but the details re army appearance etc in the appendices will be quite useful to you if starting out. They certainly kill off some of the myths still beloved by some wargamers and re-enactors - hope this helps.
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Sparrow I do happen to have a copy of the Forlorn Hope rules which is 1991 so would that be the last version?
The rules I don't know too well and they look interesting but at this time I'm focused with the Warlord Games rules right now so we'll see what happens.
Michael
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Now what I need is as follows:
List of what Foot and Horse fought on both sides
A good source of Flag information for both sides as well
Thanks
Michael
I think this is what you are after (http://wiki.bcw-project.org/). There is some info of flags and coat colour (ie, very little as that is what is known) but a good list of regiments of all types for the various belligerents.
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Codsticker might you know of places that might be able to help me out?
Michael
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Sorry, the link is in this quote:
I think this is what you are after (http://wiki.bcw-project.org/).
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It might be worth getting hold of Peachy & Princes Flags & Colours vol 1 : English Foot published by Partizan press. Its a bit dense, and not a quick read, but has good info.
Also look out for Lawrence Springs ' Wallers Army- The Regiments of Sir William Waller's Southern Association which has drawings of some known Calvary cornets, and coat colours for regiments where known. This is published by the pike and shot society.
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westwaller I recently acquired that book and I'll keep an eye out for the other book.
Michael
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Captain Gideon,
These volumes were what I used to compile the information on my old ECW collection... Back in the day I was interested in the Cavalry Cornets, but since these were so small I hand-painted them overscale. Nowadays its possible to get them commercially or printed and reduced to accurate scale, though this would take all the fun out of it for me.
All I would say is my reading suggests the Kentish and many of the less well known infantry contingents are likely on balance to have had red coats. Jones's Farnham greencoats were something of an anomaly. Waller's were blue if I recall. The visually more interesting Whitecoats etc seem to have been more of a feature of Northern Regts.
Either way the hard core of the Parliamentarian regional forces were usually chronically under strength and stiffened by periodic levies from the London Trained Bands. I depicted these in buffcoats or bog standard coat colours and with a higher ratio of firelocks to pike. My friend and I used 'Forlorn Hope' in occasional very enjoyable games.
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Just a thought - it is possible (just "possible") that Waller's own foot regiment may have been yellow coats. Looking at the Cheriton campaign we have Waller's and Paulet's(? - check this as I'm typing this on holiday so without my books). One is mentioned as being a yellow coated regiment and one blue coated but we are not sure which? Waller's "colour" may have been yellow (witness the field on his cavalry cornet) and his troops MAY (ie we're certainly not sure) have worn yellow sashes so he MAY have had the yellow coated regiment? Peter Young refered to Waller's as being blue coats in one of his books back in the 1970's and this has stuck and been repeated ever since but the actual source is less clear.
In my own army I have Waller's as blue coats but I'm wondering if I need to revisit this?
If anyone can throw any more light on this please do!
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Ah sparrow, I recall this debate now - my troops have long since gone and my ref books all packed away. Yellow coats are a possibility... but probably more of a tan colour than proper yellow.
There's long been a debate about the correlation between coat and ensign colours and what the Royalist spies who viewed the Parl musters were actually reporting on...
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Isn't there the possibility that their coat colour changed as the war progressed? I have a vague recollection about reading that somewhere....
edit: nevermind... I am thinking of a different regiment...
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Wallers foot regiments colours were blue, but the devices are unknown. It is possible that Wallers foot, had yellow coats, but it may be that the yellow coated regiment that was part of Wallers army was Christopher Potleys regiment, not William Wallers...
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Codsticker - you're quite right - coat colours could change with each issue of coats. It just adds to the "fun" and confusion. The best way around this is to focus on a particular year or campaign to give yourself a chance.
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Focusing on the year is a good idea.
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If I recall the key year was 1644 when in December the first Self Denying Ordinance was put forward in an attempt to bar politicians from leading armies. It took a 2nd attempt which took effect in April 1645. This got rid of the 'half measures men' like Essex and Manchester, but also the 'good ones' too like Waller and Heselrigg. Colonels were responsible for raising and equipping their own regiments. I believe with the formation of the New Model Army administration of the regiments post 1645 became more centralised and more standardised issues of uniforms etc. were made, hence the large scale adoption of red coats by the New Model Army etc.
I can't speak for others but the most interesting period for me is 1643-1644 with the ongoing turf war between Oxford and London.
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I can't speak for others but the most interesting period for me is 1643-1644 with the ongoing turf war between Oxford and London.
I enjoy the same period.
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Wallers foot regiments colours were blue, but the devices are unknown. It is possible that Wallers foot, had yellow coats, but it may be that the yellow coated regiment that was part of Wallers army was Christopher Potleys regiment, not William Wallers...
Potley's - that was it! Not "Paulet's" ) Thank you! The perils of getting involved on your hols!
As said, the source (linked to the Cheriton campaign) always was taken to imply Waller's were the blue coated regiment but this dates from the days when conceived wisdom had it that the cost colour matched the ensign field. We now know that where this was the case it was merely a co-incidence. It'll be interesting to go back and re-read the actual original source idc.
As for Waller - I'm a convinced Parliamentarian but I don't rate him amongst the best, not least because had a habit of losing armies. To misquote Oscar Wilde, to lose one army (Roundway) is unfortunate, to lose two (Cropredy campaign) is positively careless?
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As for Waller - I'm a convinced Parliamentarian but I don't rate him amongst the best, not least because had a habit of losing armies. To misquote Oscar Wilde, to lose one army (Roundway) is unfortunate, to lose two (Cropredy campaign) is positively careless?
I has been said that he appears not to have wanted to press home the advantage, but it is worth remembering that this was a different stage of the English Civil War, in which many of the participants on the Parliamentarian side, were still only trying to persuade the King of the folly of his advisors and not capture or kill him.
As for Roundway, Is it not the case that Essex refused to send reinforcements, even though requested by Parliament, leaving Waller vulnerable to Wilmots (iirc) cavalry attack?
Wiki is not the best source, but it surmises the situation well: Waller had previously been favoured to replace the Earl of Essex as lord general of the Parliamentarian armies. His defeat at Roundway Down made this impossible. Waller and his supporters criticised Essex for his perceived inactivity, which had allowed the royalists to detach Wilmot's cavalry from Oxford.
I appreciate that we are a bit off topic now, so apologies to the OP.
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As for Roundway, Is it not the case that Essex refused to send reinforcements, even though requested by Parliament, leaving Waller vulnerable to Wilmots (iirc) cavalry attack?
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Probably a fair point! That said Waller had the advantage of being on the "right" side come the Restoration so he does sometimes get an overly fair hearing by some historians?
appreciate that we are a bit off topic now, so apologies to the OP.
Another very fair point - I'll shut up! lol
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No need, but I just hope the OP doesn't mind :).
Isn't Essex partly to blame for Coropedy Bridge too, as he decided to go to the relief of Lyme, rather than Oxford as ordered?
Poor morale among the trained bands was the other reason, but they might have felt better if they had had some backup...
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I said I'd shut up, but......
I don't think Waller was a bad General (and I'm certainly not an apologist for Essex!), I just find it odd that Waller keeps losing armies. It can't always be someone else's fault? He has to take at least some of the blame? It's also interesting to note that Essex, Manchester etc held together reasonably consistent field armies throughout the first civil war whereas Waller's change... a lot?
Part of this could be down to their armies benefiting from quality subordinates (eg Skippon, Crauford, Cromwell) so, again, I'm probably being a tad unfair, but Waller never seems to have managed to create that invisble glue that holds an army together through the bad times. Even after Essex's disaster at Loswithiel his army manages to re-bond together (thanks to Skippon) whereas after Cropredy (far less of a disaster), nothing of note re-emerges?
I think I'm coming back to my earlier point. Waller was ok (and on a good day, pretty good) but he wasn't one of Parliament's best. History has been kind to him as he was politically astute/well placed in the restoration and so gets good PR from people like Clarendon which we've never really questioned?
So, who are in my "fantasy team"? Well, Sir Thomas Fairfax, Sir Philip Skippon and one Oliver Cromwell. Spotting a theme eh? lol