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Miniatures Adventure => The Conflicts that came in from the Cold => Topic started by: Predatorpt on September 11, 2016, 12:53:01 AM

Title: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: Predatorpt on September 11, 2016, 12:53:01 AM
I must confess this is the first time I hear about this battle. Irish UN troops against Katangese and their French, Belgian and Rhodesian mercenaries, in 1961.

Seems interesting enough to warrant a further view...if Netflix here in Portugal gets the movie at all!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_JHsiQTTmg

Of course that part about shooting the plane with a Maxim...I guess they took some liberties with the story.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jadotville
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: commissarmoody on September 11, 2016, 04:43:45 AM
I have been looking forward to this move.  I will have to see if it's out yet.
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: traveller on September 11, 2016, 08:26:15 AM
Very interesting! Although I feel for the Irish it makes a great wargaming scenario oncluding the Swedish and Ghurka relif force. I really look forward to this movie. Thanks for posting!
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: ChargeDog on September 11, 2016, 01:51:23 PM
Netflix really have been knocking it out the park with some of their latest releases. I'm really excited to see this when its released.
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: seamoose on September 11, 2016, 08:01:47 PM
I  knew there was a reason for my continuing to pay for a Netflix subscription, can't wait for this to come out.
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: juergen c. olk on September 11, 2016, 09:03:32 PM
They did have Vickers mg's.Can;t wait ,read the books.
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: carlos marighela on September 12, 2016, 09:11:36 AM
Hmm have to watch that. Pity it has Jamie Dorman, the scenery chewing muppet from The Killing as the lead. Still I suppose it could have been worse, it might have been the truly execrable Colin Farrell.
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: YPU on September 12, 2016, 09:34:38 AM
I have a book by one of the mercenary commanders. His point of view is pretty damming of the UN.

Interesting, it's not that often you can read accounts from both sides on conflicts like these.
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: gimzod on September 12, 2016, 02:53:35 PM
I have a book by one of the mercenary commanders. His point of view is pretty damming of the UN.

What's the books title?
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: Elbows on September 12, 2016, 09:04:52 PM
Definitely want to watch this.
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: traveller on September 12, 2016, 09:32:48 PM
What would be the best 28mm minis to use for the Irish?
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: Mike Bravo Minis on September 12, 2016, 11:11:24 PM
Eureka Aden Brits are the closest I can think of?

 I think I'm going to add something suitable for the Katanga mercs to our Wild Geese range. The Irish uniform looks close to some other ideas I was playing about with so may well do those too in 2017.
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: traveller on September 13, 2016, 08:27:06 PM
Excellent! Are there any helmet heads( M1?) around to change them into UN troops?
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: carlos marighela on September 13, 2016, 11:21:35 PM
Excellent! Are there any helmet heads( M1?) around to change them into UN troops?

If you pick up Wargames Factory WW2 Americans, you'll have a platoon's worth of heads in M1 helmets that fit.
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: traveller on September 14, 2016, 09:20:26 PM
If you pick up Wargames Factory WW2 Americans, you'll have a platoon's worth of heads in M1 helmets that fit.

Good! Are these compatible with the Mongrel Hicks sculpts?
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: carlos marighela on September 14, 2016, 09:35:02 PM
The helmets or the Eureka figures?
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: traveller on September 15, 2016, 10:39:26 AM
I have some Mongrel in berets that I plan to headswap and then add others, maybe Eureka and put M1 helmets on them as well
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: traveller on September 18, 2016, 06:12:12 PM
I just found a treasure in pdf:

http://source.southdublinlibraries.ie/bitstream/10599/4927/2/The%20battle%20of%20Jadotville.pdf
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: Ash on September 23, 2016, 10:45:49 AM
Mercenary commander by Col J Puren. The bits on the use of mercenary airpower are particularly good. As is the part about the UN's support for Mobutu

That's a rare book these days. good find
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: flags_of_war on September 23, 2016, 01:11:15 PM
I had never heard of this battle so looked it up. Now looking at the clip and the fire fights they are showing, it makes me wonder the quality of the troops as none of the Irish died in the battle.  lol lol
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: Ash on September 23, 2016, 07:23:31 PM
You would be amazed at the stuff I find in the local thrift shop. It is not just a place where one can get a hair piece that makes them look like a medieval warrior.

... it's so damn frosty..
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: bulldogger2000 on October 09, 2016, 04:08:41 PM
Watched the movie just last night.  EXCELLENT.  Most certainly worth your time to watch it a few times (which I will).  Interesting point that I was NOT aware of was that the MERC commander was actually one of the most decorated members of the French Foreign Legion.  Irish on one side, French on the other, I guess war does make for strange bedfellows.
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: Lowtardog on October 09, 2016, 05:00:34 PM
Just watched it, its a good film, really enjoyed it
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: Ninefingers on October 12, 2016, 10:51:20 AM
Watched it last night, bloody brilliant I thought. Peter Pig are going to sell a lot of AK47 Republic figures off of the back of this...
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: carlos marighela on October 12, 2016, 03:19:23 PM
Jesus or as the scenery chomping Mr Dornan would have it 'Jaysus, fook, Jaysus'. If that wasn't the biggest steaming pile of shite I have watched in a long time i don't know what is.
 
Hollywood melodramatics aplenty, two dimensional characters, pantomime villains and an appalling script. Forget any of the button counting quibbles it's a load of shit on its cinematic merits. I feel vaguely sorry for the poor sods whose tale it purported to relate.  We aimed for a modern take on Zulu via Police Academy VI is the general impression I was left with.

I did love the bit where he plants his handkerchief after the failed parlay with the evil Frenchman (facial scars and all) and announces to his command that he's marked out the range. That was fucking cunning, save for the fact that any professional soldier would have got every bugger to have drawn up a range card for every pit as part of the defence plan. ::)

If the chaps in the real battle were as piss poor as the film depicted it would have been all over in five minutes.

Question? Does the Irish Army really salute like a bunch of fucking matelots?
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: foxweasel on October 12, 2016, 06:44:46 PM
Don't hold back, tell us what you really think. I thought it was a good film, they got all the weapons, kit and uniforms right. Not often that happens. They were under siege for 6 days and could have held out for longer if they'd had the ammunition, think it was the Africans and mercs who were crap.
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: carlos marighela on October 12, 2016, 10:05:46 PM
I have no doubt that the real defenders of Jadotville were brave men who performed well. Demonstrably they did.

The 'film' was cartoon affair and a poor one at that whatever the merits of the kit. Save for a couple of five minute cameos, the Katangans/Congolese didn't get a look in, save to litter the battlefield. Your mileage may vary.

Pity, I had been quite looking forward to it, given its unusual subject matter.
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: carlos marighela on October 12, 2016, 11:03:41 PM
It doesn't, it paints them as cardboard villains. Don't expect subtelty. The only nuance is that Roman Polanski's wife pops up as a vaguely sympathetic Belgian widow.
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: juergen c. olk on October 13, 2016, 12:31:42 AM
What matters is the Irish Congo Veterans gave it a thumb s up ,including the ones who were there. Yes the movie was a little stiff..and yes it was a Chickasaw not a Huey,,but you got to see a Fouga Magister...flying. Considering how many films comeout on the subject I;m grateful . Netflix;s other film Beasts of No Nations was brilliant. I enjoyed it ,especially having read two books on the Matter 3 1/2 stars out of 5
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: Elbows on October 13, 2016, 02:10:39 AM
I watched it and enjoyed it.  I think anyone should have known full well ahead of time to tone down their expectations.  It's a Netflix movies about a conflict almost no one knew happened.


***SPOILERS AHEAD***



Yes, it had a huey.  Yes it had an F4 which shot down Dag etc.  I'm more curious if they did really kill what appears to be 200-300 hundred Africans for no losses.

I could criticize the film for days, but I guess I'm not sure what people were expecting.  Hell, when was the last time we saw an accurate, brilliant war film?  Das Boot? :`
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: juergen c. olk on October 15, 2016, 01:46:33 PM
Yes they did get that part wrong ,because it was Mobuto did the overthrow.Leading to decades of Bliss..LoL!
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: grant on October 15, 2016, 05:44:04 PM
I have it on my Netflix watch list, but I'm stuck in Danger 5 season 1 and having too much fun!
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: Marine0846 on October 18, 2016, 07:24:57 PM
Well I finally got around to watching the movie.
Over all it was pretty good.
A few points may have been wrong.
Did not stop me from enjoying it.
A good three star movie.
Brave men, even if you do not agree with the politics of the era.
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: grant on October 26, 2016, 04:58:57 PM
Watched it today. Actually rather enjoyed it. Good film, lots of action, limited plot, all the things I want in a war movie. And not one love scene. Perfect. 4.5/6 stars.
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: Cubs on October 26, 2016, 05:44:27 PM
So, you're using an arbitrary 6-star system. Not a perfect 5/7 then?
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: NickNascati on October 26, 2016, 07:40:11 PM
I watched it yesterday and quite enjoyed it.  Te only thing I knew about the mess in the Congo before this, was Mike Hoare and the Simbas.
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: gamer Mac on October 26, 2016, 07:44:19 PM
I watched it and enjoyed it.
The only bit a bonkers was the vickers MG shooting down the jet
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: MajorTalon on October 27, 2016, 10:30:48 AM
So, you're using an arbitrary 6-star system. Not a perfect 5/7 then?

Oh..... Oh no.....
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: Arlequín on October 27, 2016, 02:38:19 PM
The history of events wasn't that flawed... Lumumba had fled to Stanleyville to set up a counter-government to that of Kasa-Vubu, where he was captured and after pressure from Belgium, was subsequently given up to 'moderate' Tshombe; who promptly had him shot in front of Belgian officers.

Katanga was an attempt by a consortium of mostly Belgian corporations to retain access to the Congo's mineral wealth, with Tshombe receiving an appropriate reward for letting them. The creation of Katanga cannot be seen as anything other than an attempt to maintain colonialism by a settler and corporate elite in the most mineral-rich province. Certainly the people of Katanga never got a say in the matter and the Baluba tribes actively fought the largely Lunda tribesmen of the Katangese Gendarmerie from the word go.

We are talking about a whole lot of shades of grey (no pun intended) with regard to the Congo at this time, but a dictator propped up by a white settler elite, former officers of the Force Publique and the departed colonial power Belgium, with South Africa and Portugal running interference in the UN, is definitely on the charcoal grey end of the spectrum.

As for the film, it was okay. That a Belgian woman could live alone with no apparent security, in the middle of a war zone, was a bit incongruous to say the least. For me that was a waste of time that could have been better-used; perhaps to show that 'A Company' was not immediately flown home in disgrace after their release (and still in the same uniforms no less), but carried on serving and fighting for the remainder of their six month tour. They might have gone the 'Bridge Too Far' route and better shown the efforts of the Indians and Swedes trying to fight their way past the Katangans at Lufira Bridge to break the siege.  

In all it was about as historically accurate as 'The Wild Geese' and somewhat less enthralling than 'Tears of the Sun' or 'Blood Diamond'. Top marks to the guy who did the research on the kit though.

They were under siege for 6 days and could have held out for longer if they'd had the ammunition, think it was the Africans and mercs who were crap.

I gather that the plan was to force a surrender and use them to force concessions from the UN, rather than killing them all. It was never a Rorke's Drift type thing. Certainly the Gendarmes' combat record elsewhere would imply that had they meant to wipe them out, they would have.
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: foxweasel on October 27, 2016, 08:32:54 PM
The casualty rate paints a different picture. 300 dead and possibly a 1000 wounded, I think they were really trying and it was probably only the presence of the white mercenaries that stopped the Irish troops being executed when their ammunition ran out. I don't have access to any combat reports of the Katangan Gendarmes, I would imagine they would have been very good at 20th century African tribal warfare, but as soon as they came across western forces they came a bit unstuck.
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: Mike Bravo Minis on October 30, 2016, 10:00:26 AM
Top marks to the guy who did the research on the kit though.
I am turning my mind to figures for Katanga now that our Wild Geese figures are well under way.  Am I reasonably safe to use stills from the film as inspiration for the sculptor?  (Lots of B&W grainy images around but movie stills are helpful)
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: Arlequín on October 30, 2016, 12:29:06 PM
Slip of the tongue (well fingers anyway)... I was referring more to the Irish and the general feel of the movie; although photos of the Irish show helmets being worn (both British 'turtle' and U.S. M1 types). I would be wary of basing a line of figures on the FAK shown in the movie, unless it was a generic 'African' set.

The FAK varied between quite well turned out 'commandos', who look little different to the ANC (which most of them had been part of), more relaxed looking Gendarmes with bush hats, SMLEs, the occasional SAFN 49 (although the FAL was rapidly replacing both of these), Stens, BARs and the like, to semi-civilian clothed militia with bows, spears and lots of old long rifles, with a few in ex-FP uniforms, British-style peaked caps or 'battle-bowlers'. Not an exhaustive guide by any stretch of the imagination, but a starting point.

Certainly the forces grew more 'military' as time went on. Mobile columns sixty or so strong, with a few Gendarmes backed by militia, were normal at the start of the succession, but these evolved into whole columns of Gendarmes as newer weapons, uniforms and kit arrived.  

There is literally a wealth of material out there, just type in 'Katanga Army' and you'll get quite a bit come up. There are even a few news reel vids like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tjabb6GdySk and one or two Pintrest boards with a couple of hundred photos each; https://es.pinterest.com/ndmillett/crise-congolaise/ and https://es.pinterest.com/juhwankr/mike-hoare-the-mercenary/

Picking out what is actually Congo-Crisis and not from the later 'Simba Rebellion' can be a bit of a minefield though.

Their main opponents besides the UN were the Balubakat, who were supplied from Stanleyville. Presumably these benefited from Soviet arms supplied to the Lumumbists, but I have no idea what they looked like.

*Edit* - Found this site relating to one of the Luba tribes: http://www.albertville.be/kasongo-nyembo-01.html
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: traveller on October 30, 2016, 02:29:42 PM
I am turning my mind to figures for Katanga now that our Wild Geese figures are well under way.  Am I reasonably safe to use stills from the film as inspiration for the sculptor?  (Lots of B&W grainy images around but movie stills are helpful)

I am sure I can help you with images that would be better than stills if you state you are looking for
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: Mike Bravo Minis on October 30, 2016, 06:34:06 PM
Cheers both - I probably meant the Irish too Arlequin. 

Traveller - will be on touch!
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: Sterling Moose on October 30, 2016, 07:32:27 PM
Spoiler Alert, Spoiler Alert, Spoiler Alert, Spoiler Alert, Spoiler Alert, Spoiler Alert, Spoiler Alert, Spoiler Alert, Spoiler Alert, Spoiler Alert, Spoiler Alert, Spoiler Alert, Spoiler Alert, Spoiler Alert, Spoiler Alert, Spoiler Alert, Spoiler Alert, Spoiler Alert, Spoiler Alert, Spoiler Alert

SPOILER ALERT

I thoroughly enjoyed the film and kudos to the real Company 'A'.  No-one killed, now that is an achievement.

Unfortunately Hollywood being Hollywood:

I know it's only a film but:

1.  You order the troops to dig trenches but let then stop when they are only upper chest deep.

2.  You only leave one guy on guard while everyone else goes to Mass.

3.  At the outset you use the Vickers as an afterthought and don't integrate it into your defence plan.

4.  You know you're short on ammo but don't clear the ground after the first attack to recover the weapons, ammo and the two wrecked jeeps (to use as cover)

5.  You didn't tell the sniper to take out every mother that turns up on a jeep either behind the wheel or behind a heavy weapon or is white and wearing a red beret.

6.  You store all your ammo in one hut.

7.  The attacks continue but during the lull you don't upgrade your defences with the rigley tin and other construction materials from the buildings wrecked by enemy mortar and aircraft fire.

Just sayin...............
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: Viper4Dan on October 31, 2016, 12:22:45 AM
I'm presently working on this game for HotLead in March. I already have all the Katangese done from my "Dark of the Sun" Game. For the Irish, I'm using Warlord Games WW2 British Commandos, with a few helmets thrown in from their Us Army range, and FN's and a Vickers from TAG. Pretty simple really.
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: Arlequín on October 31, 2016, 12:22:35 PM
Indeed and it was an open air mass too; I mean would you cram a whole company into a shack in their part-wool uniforms after complaining about the heat earlier?

The trenches were apparently 1.5 metres deep, so upper chest/shoulder height for most people. Collecting weapons and ammo would have been done under fire from the KAT positions; they withdrew to cover between attacks, they didn't go home. Even if they did, you want your guys in or near their defensive positions, not partly-dispersed around the kill zone trying to decide if each round they have recovered is 7.65, .30, .303, or 7.62; using enemy ammo and weapons could have literally backfired on the defenders.   

All that aside it was a movie and showing point by point all the preparations and processes would have made it incredibly dull and boring to about 95% of people watching it; myself included. Movies are entertainment, documentaries are information. It could have been worse, Mel Gibson wasn't involved, so it wasn't all blamed on the English.
 ;)
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: Ash on October 31, 2016, 05:56:35 PM
It could have been worse, Mel Gibson wasn't involved, so it wasn't all blamed on the English.
 ;)

Priceless.. lol
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: grant on October 31, 2016, 06:12:47 PM
Priceless.. lol

Oh Melvin the Redeemer would have blamed some other people. The English are second on his hate list.
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: Hammers on October 31, 2016, 06:21:06 PM
Dag Hammarskjöld, The UN Secretary General, is a relative of mine so I am *quite* dissappointed they did not portray him secrety faking his own death so he could come storming in, guns ablaze, and save the day. In my mind that is what really happened.
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: carlos marighela on November 01, 2016, 09:25:52 AM
Dag Hammarskjöld, The UN Secretary General, is a relative of mine so I am *quite* dissappointed they did not portray him secrety faking his own death so he could come storming in, guns ablaze, and save the day. In my mind that is what really happened.


The good news is that he modified his name and now runs an international chain of ice cream shops. The bad news is that the ice cream is shit and worse, the more credulous customers think he is Danish.
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: grant on November 01, 2016, 02:32:49 PM
What the fuck?!? It's a häägen lie? This kind of ice cream aggression will not stand!!!
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: Viper4Dan on November 01, 2016, 11:25:21 PM
Just a few pics of my Katangese troops and mercenaries. Most are Warlord Games British Commandos or US Army, with a little green stuff and TAG FN's. Still a work in progress.
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: Viper4Dan on November 01, 2016, 11:27:44 PM
A few more shots of the Katangese and Mercs. Yes, the "officers" are based on characters from "Dark of the Sun".
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: commissarmoody on November 02, 2016, 01:21:02 PM
Looking good so far
Title: Re: The Siege of Jadotville - Netflix movie for October.
Post by: mikedemana on November 14, 2016, 04:21:32 AM
Looks great! Saw the movie last night and I liked it. My wargaming friend and I had both our significant others in attendance, too. They also gave it a thumbs up.

Mike Demana
www.firstcommandwargames.com
http://leadlegionaries.blogspot.com/

(http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/mikedemana/Miscellaneous/LPL_bades_zpsl7op2jaz.jpg)