Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Future Wars => Topic started by: Boze on 18 September 2016, 06:31:08 PM
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Hey folks! Hows it goin?
So I have found out some old friends of mine who I used to play 40k 3rd edition with back in the day are now getting back into 40k 7th edition.
a bit about me:
I have a ridiculous amount of board games
playing frostgrave which is awesome
played warmahordes a bit
played infinity a bit
i LOVE objectives in missions, i hate it when its just meet in the middle and kill. I like tactics and strategy and being objective oriented.
Now... i am still really enjoying frostgrave but I can't help but want to kick the tires on 40k again.... its a been a LONG while and would love to hear some thoughts on the state of the game.
Think 40k is the type of game which can be a good small scale miniatures game? I am not looking for a big table filled with minis... i like smaller skimrish scale 20 minis max kinda thing.... Something that is objective oriented is always best for me!
Cheers guys!
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In short, no. The rules look pretty terrible for small skirmish-esque games. They are trying though with the KillTeam releases...but you're probably far better off with another rule set.
PS: Don't let that put you off. I'm building a 2nd edition Eldar army with absolutely no promise of having anything to do with it. I play some Kiddiehammer with my nephew, but I like the models and I enjoy painting/finishing them. If you want to paint some Warhammer models, go for it. There has been a big resurgence lately of people renewing their interest in the fluff/models if not the game itself.
You can always find alternative rules to use with the figures.
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Nope, 40K is a slow clunky ruleset aimed at bigger battles. I have played some 40k in 40 minutes in the past and it doesn't compare to other games once you've played them.
I've also played a 7th ed game a few weeks ago. We had fun but both me and my friend (who's extremely into the fluff and models) agreed that the game itself isn't great.
It just feels outdated. Bolt Action feels more like what 40k should have been by now.
I'm sayig this as someone who loves the models and the setting. I'm currenly in the market for a new game system to use these models with.
A bolt(er) action variant is being discusses and recently shockforce popped up as a possibility.
My advice: Enjoy the models and fluff. Find a system that suits you.
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7th Ed 40K is horrible for small skirmish combat. You'd do better with the original RT version, or maybe 2nd edition. By 3rd (way back in the 90s) the shift toward mass combat had started, and these days that train is running at full steam (and headed right for a cliff IMO).
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Basically, 40K now is what Epic used to be, huge tables crammed full of miniatures, tanks, flyers and huge titan mechs. Kill Team looks interesting, but already the rules for that seem a little broken as certain factions can simply flood the table with miniatures.
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Yes, with a "but,..."
I doubt I will ever play 40k again in it's current form, as they say it's now all about giant robots, supoerheavy tanks and monstrous creatures. BUT, the Heralds of Ruin Kill Team rules are VERY good. They're a community driven ruleset that uses the base 40k rules , imposes some small changes and restrictions, and then (most importantly) has a full mini codex/armylist for each faction. It's designed to play 250 points of stuff against 250 points of stuff, and you typically see around 10-20 models a side. Plays on a 4x4 table, and while it uses the base 7th ed ruleset, because it's specifically for small points games where every figure is independant it solves a lot of the issues I have had with 40k in recent years. Still not perfect, but it's pretty fun, it's much cheaper, and it still scratches that 40k itch I get every now and again
http://heralds-of-ruin.blogspot.com/p/kill-team-rules.html (http://heralds-of-ruin.blogspot.com/p/kill-team-rules.html)
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Thanks everyone this is all fantastic information.
I suppose I am going to stick with Frostgrave for now...
Shame, i feel like my friends have gotten themselves into the wrong mini game! I believe they are going in blind and already bought the kill team starter set sigh
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try Fubar, Pulp Alley (although this is more 5-6 a side - better for Rogue Trader type games - sure it could be modified though). A variant for Bolt Action would be good.
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Thanks aliensurfer! I was about to ask for some suggestions on alternatives for sci fi/shooty as I feel frostgrave really nails the fantasy element I am looking for!!
Looking forward to any and all suggestions thanks! maybe i can con my friends into trying too :D :D
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The background for 40k is great. Rulebooks, RPGs and Black Library fiction make it probably the most developed, rich game universe out there with the possible exceptions of things like Star Wars and Marvel and DC Worlds.
Most of the miniatures are good or better. You can usually find an opponent for a scratch game.
The official rules are a horrible bloated mess with add ons in probably 100 different books and on-line sources, some of which are current, some have been replaced and it's difficult to keep up without being a massively obsessed fan. A lot of the changes in the last few years have driven 40k to being a 28mm version of the old Epic system which the old game engine really can't handle effectively. If you can find regular opponents and house rule a lot of it the game is fine but you won't be playing "official" 40k.
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The background for 40k is great. Rulebooks, RPGs and Black Library fiction make it probably the most developed, rich game universe out there with the possible exceptions of things like Star Wars and Marvel and DC Worlds.
I'd put both Glorantha and Tekumel miles ahead of it, but 40K is still a pretty well-developed setting, and WFB had one before AoS literally killed it. Fans of Fantasy Flight's GW-based RPGs will want to fill in any gaps in their collection ASAP, since the license has been discontinued and everything will be out of print (and hideously expensive on the secondary market) very soon now.
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I'd put both Glorantha and Tekumel miles ahead of it,
Given the user name I know both Glorantha and Tekumel pretty well. In terms of volume 40k is miles ahead of both. The Horus Heresy alone is covered by around 50 books so far including Black Library and Forgeworld. In terms of writing quality and scope Glorantha is to me much better than 40k. Tekumel is a bit denser and less accessible than either. The question is SF gaming though and one of the big things 40k has in it's favour is the background.
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You need Clash on the Fringe from Nordic Weasel Games.
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Might be worth checking out the One Page Rules. They have rules for larger games and skirmish. Not reeeeeally one page, but very comprehensive and constantly updated as new figures are released. It's a good choice for simple rules where someone else has done all the hard work matching 40k units!
https://onepagerules.wordpress.com/ (https://onepagerules.wordpress.com/)
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People have been doing Star Wars mods for Frostgrave - I'm sure an online search will tell you more than I could. It has rules for ranged and HTH combat, lots of gear options and "psychic" (=magic) powers.
First link on Google returns a thread right here:
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=81014.0 (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=81014.0)
There's also Inquisimunda - games of Inquisitor using the Necromunda rules. It would scratch the 40k itch, as it's based on the same core rules, and is a damn fine game in its own right:
http://empireofghosts.blogspot.co.uk/p/inquisimunda-resources.html (http://empireofghosts.blogspot.co.uk/p/inquisimunda-resources.html)
The basic Necromunda rules PDF has long since vanished, but some of us still have a copy from when it was a free Living Ruleset ;)
In the Emperor's Name is another neat little free ruleset:
https://iten-game.org/ (https://iten-game.org/)
The commercial version of the rules is a Steampunk game called In Her Majesty's Name, published by Osprey, but uses a D10 instead of ITEN's D6.
The GW Kill Team box looks decent (not least because there's £55 worth of minis in a box that you can find online for £30), but my feeling is that there's just a bit too much involved. Learn the core GW rules (in the box), learn the modifications for Kill Team (in the box), buy the codex for your force if it's not one of the two in the box. Yes there are PDFs for the bundled forces on the GW website, but the special rules and weapon stats are not all included. You could just buy the Kill Team PDF and use the modifications with an older version of 40k?
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GW have also just released a new version of Kill-Team. That may suit as your friends can use their existing minis and you don't have to invest in bucket loads of them.
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Might be worth checking out the One Page Rules. They have rules for larger games and skirmish. Not reeeeeally one page, but very comprehensive and constantly updated as new figures are released. It's a good choice for simple rules where someone else has done all the hard work matching 40k units!
https://onepagerules.wordpress.com/ (https://onepagerules.wordpress.com/)
I just read through these and I'm impressed. Not only is there very little to actually read, but on a theoretical level, these rules appear to convey the '40K feel'® pretty well.
We'll be trying them out soonish I think. Just like the Shock Force rules btw... :D
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I've never played any version of 40K other than the first edition. That was a lot of fun at the time, but it's not a great ruleset in my opinion. I bought the rulebook second-hand fairly recently, out of pure nostalgia. And it's full of great things: the plot generators, the DIY aesthetic, the background and all those evocative Ian Miller and John Blanche illustrations.
At the weekend, I looked through it and thought about running the farm scenario for my son and friends (I've been painting up some of these chaps (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=77384.msg1155201#msg1155201) recently). But re-familiarising myself with the mechanics, I was reminded of just how clunky the gameplay seems now. "I go, you go" is hugely outdated, the profiles are so stat-heavy, and the combat system is really laborious. I don't know, but I gather that later editions didn't really fix these problems.
My impression, from a friend who plays the current iteration, is that the background really just carries the rules for people like him, who actually prefer painting, converting and fluff to the gameplay; as he puts it, "I play so rarely that I just want to see lots of spectacular models moving around the table".
I'd recommend a couple of systems for small-scale skirmishes with the 40K background. First, Rogue Planet. We've had great fun playing this recently: it's got lots of innovative, state-of-the-art mechanics and is very fast-playing. It's perfect for 40K, in that it has rules for power fists, chainswords and the like. There are some suggestions from the author for statting up space marines and the like in the discussions here (http://www.wargamevault.com/product/139359/Rogue-Planet). There's a huge amount of fun to be had with this, from using power fists to throw opponents into dangerous terrain to "bug-hunting" against seemingly impossible odds by using the group rules. The pawn rules (where leaders get followers that are represented by miniatures but just add abilities to the leader and act as hit points for them) are great for 40K, given the models available (servo-skulls, gretchin carrying their masters' weapons, standard-bearers, etc.). It's both a high-tech system that models suppression and overwatch well and a fantasy system in which power swords and shields make sense.
The other thing I'd recommend is one of the Ganesha systems. Mutants and Death Ray Guns is a lot of fun, and then there's Flying Lead, which is adds more realism. Both have the huge advantage of working well with more than two players. So, if you want to play multi-player games with four to six miniatures a side, one of those would work really well. The new supplement for MDRG adds reactions, which break up the turn sequence a bit more; those are designed for two-player games, but Andrea, the author, has published a fix for multiplayer games on the Song of Blades and Heroes Yahoo group (essentially, players draw cards to determine who is allowed to use reactions in a given player's turn). And Osprey are bringing out Andrea's Rogue Stars in December, which is a different system but is eagerly anticipated.
All of these rulesets are really cheap, well tested and well thought out.
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You need Clash on the Fringe from Nordic Weasel Games.
I'll second this, albeit with the caveat that although I've got (& have read) the rules, I haven't actually played a game with it yet. The background and army creation is sufficiently open that you can put pretty much whatever you want in there. The author describes it as being a homage to Rogue Trader-era 40K, but with more modern mechanics. There's a detailed review of it here: http://crapidfire.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/clash-on-fringe-game-review.html (http://crapidfire.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/clash-on-fringe-game-review.html)
Also, depending how small-scale skirmish you want, the impending Osprey rules Rogue Stars (pitched at 4-6 figures a side) may be an option - that too appears pretty open in terms of character creation/equipping. (I'm hoping to use it partly as a more streamlined system for Inquisitor-style RPGing.)
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For smaller (about 5 solo personalities per team, or about 5-10 times as many henchman types operating in units) skirmish gaming you might also try Blasters & Bulkheads, one of the many Goalsystem engine games out there. It's got a bit more of a Star Wars or Firefly feel than 40K, but is flexible enough to become a GrimDark future rules set with minimal effort.