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Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: Phil Portway on October 04, 2016, 08:37:39 PM
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500 Points using Sword and Spear Egyptians had 16 dice and Byzantine had 15 dice.
Egyptians won scouting and Byzantines placed first, The set ups
Byzantine:
(http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn208/1815philip/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05766_zpsla4jnkhj.jpg) (http://s305.photobucket.com/user/1815philip/media/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05766_zpsla4jnkhj.jpg.html)
(http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn208/1815philip/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05768_zps8kkee8ck.jpg) (http://s305.photobucket.com/user/1815philip/media/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05768_zps8kkee8ck.jpg.html)
Egyptian:
(http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn208/1815philip/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05767_zps9dvqxroq.jpg) (http://s305.photobucket.com/user/1815philip/media/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05767_zps9dvqxroq.jpg.html)
(http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn208/1815philip/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05769_zpsrq5xf1np.jpg) (http://s305.photobucket.com/user/1815philip/media/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05769_zpsrq5xf1np.jpg.html)
Turns 1 and 2 were of position and manoeuvre.
Turn 3 saw the first clash:
Franks smash into a Ghilmen unit and caused only one casualty and received 1 Casualty
(http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn208/1815philip/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05770_zpsabkwklf9.jpg) (http://s305.photobucket.com/user/1815philip/media/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05770_zpsabkwklf9.jpg.html)
Egyptians also lost 2 light horse units to shooting
(http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn208/1815philip/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05771_zps25irbyyq.jpg) (http://s305.photobucket.com/user/1815philip/media/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05771_zps25irbyyq.jpg.html)
Turn 4 & 5:were very bloody for both sides and I forgot to take pics for turn 4,
Turn 5
(http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn208/1815philip/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05776_zps1mpl5jjs.jpg) (http://s305.photobucket.com/user/1815philip/media/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05776_zps1mpl5jjs.jpg.html)
(http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn208/1815philip/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05778_zpsegxc3e3m.jpg) (http://s305.photobucket.com/user/1815philip/media/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05778_zpsegxc3e3m.jpg.html)
(http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn208/1815philip/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05779_zpsgxweisxd.jpg) (http://s305.photobucket.com/user/1815philip/media/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05779_zpsgxweisxd.jpg.html)
(http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn208/1815philip/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05780_zpsreksfibh.jpg) (http://s305.photobucket.com/user/1815philip/media/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05780_zpsreksfibh.jpg.html)
(http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn208/1815philip/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05781_zpslh91ojvg.jpg) (http://s305.photobucket.com/user/1815philip/media/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05781_zpslh91ojvg.jpg.html)
(http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn208/1815philip/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05782_zpsp88kxwwo.jpg) (http://s305.photobucket.com/user/1815philip/media/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05782_zpsp88kxwwo.jpg.html)
Here are the casualties:
17 points, Discipline tests were all passed
(http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn208/1815philip/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05774_zpsbjpwk4fb.jpg) (http://s305.photobucket.com/user/1815philip/media/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05774_zpsbjpwk4fb.jpg.html)
19 points and a Captainfailed 3 Discipline tests. The units that failed took a casualty
(http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn208/1815philip/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05775_zpspxkbbtkj.jpg) (http://s305.photobucket.com/user/1815philip/media/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05775_zpspxkbbtkj.jpg.html)
Last turn - 6:
Egyptians got the luck of the draw.
(http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn208/1815philip/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05784_zpsablab64v.jpg) (http://s305.photobucket.com/user/1815philip/media/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05784_zpsablab64v.jpg.html)
(http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn208/1815philip/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05785_zpscktxidcr.jpg) (http://s305.photobucket.com/user/1815philip/media/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05785_zpscktxidcr.jpg.html)
(http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn208/1815philip/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05786_zpsm87vc28v.jpg) (http://s305.photobucket.com/user/1815philip/media/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05786_zpsm87vc28v.jpg.html)
(http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn208/1815philip/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05787_zpslea6cz4i.jpg) (http://s305.photobucket.com/user/1815philip/media/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05787_zpslea6cz4i.jpg.html)
(http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn208/1815philip/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05788_zps9pkvxiyw.jpg) (http://s305.photobucket.com/user/1815philip/media/Sword%20and%20Spear/Fatimid%20Egyptian%20vs%20Byzantine/DSC05788_zps9pkvxiyw.jpg.html)
The last turn, the Byzantine lost another 2 units which took them over half their army points and they broke. A Fatimid Egyptian victory. caused by bad dice rolling on the Byzantine side of the table. Although the Egyptians rolling was just as appalling in the early stages of the battle.
A hard fought enjoyable game.
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Very nice looking armies, but where's the terrain!
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Very nice looking armies, but where's the terrain!
We started a bit late, so did away with terrain. We are still learning the rules too, so we want "action" to see how the different troop types work
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We started a bit late, so did away with terrain. We are still learning the rules too, so we want "action" to see how the different troop types work
Fair enough. How did you find the rules?
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Yeah, Looks like a great battle. I'd be interested in hearing about Sword and Spear, too.
Also, how many points for a wagon wheel?
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Lovely game! I wondered about the 'wagon wheel' too!
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Fair enough. How did you find the rules?
We are really enjoying them. We have a group of about 12 now into Ancient and Medieval wargaming again. Gives me the opportunity to break out the 10 or 12 15mm Armies I have!
Well worth a try!
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Yeah, Looks like a great battle. I'd be interested in hearing about Sword and Spear, too.
Also, how many points for a wagon wheel?
They are there for scale! lol
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Great looking game. Good to hear the game went well and you are enjoying the rules.
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Great looking game. Good to hear the game went well and you are enjoying the rules.
Mark, they have definitely made an impact on our club, and the ancient players are coming out of the woodwork to play in both 15mm and 28mm.
A fine set of rules, with no house rules either! Yaay!
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Wagon Wheels have come on a bit since I were a lad - they were about the size of my hand 40 years ago, now they are as big as 6 armed men on horse back - plenty enough to feed an all conquering army. ;)
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Fair enough. How did you find the rules?
I also wonder what people think of the dice mechanic that drives the game. We have played three different battles with these and we're having issues with dicing for actions. What I mean is, most troops need a 4 on a D6 to activate, higher to do anything other than basic moves. You pull dice at random for both sides and then roll your dice. A one is a failure while you need to meet or exceed your discipline number to act. A commander improves your discipline by one if attached. This means 2s work only for 3 rated units with a commander. You receive one die for each unit, each turn, none for commanders. You then lose dice one-for-one as you lose units.
This means a lot of troops can't do anything, or very little in a turn. It also means that your opponent can dictate the battle at times in some parts of the field because you can't do anything about them. I get this is the command control part of the game and that both sides are under the same constrictions, but I wonder if it is too restrictive?
We last played several months ago and are now rereading and looking for mistakes we may have/probably made. For example, we last played Marathon. We used 8 units of Greek hoplites. There were three discipline 3 units and five with a discipline of 4. They were in three commands along with three light units, one a Cretan Archer unit rated as 3 the others were 4s. 11 units total, four 3s and eight 4s with three commanders.
The Persians had 14 units total, 10 rated as 4s and four as 3s, also with three commanders. Now the battle went okay except for the major problems we had moving units. It caused us to wait with units instead of piece-mealing them in. it became frustrating for us to the point we put it away for awhile. We had other issues, but feel we could fix these-heavy armor is a great advantage even when hit on the flank/rear by multiple units-see link below.
So one fix we're thinking about going from D6s to D8s for activation and leaving everything else as is...ideas?
Here is a link which might give you so more information/tactic/ideas from their forum:
http://polkovnikproductions.freeforums.org/first-game-of-s-s-greeks-v-persians-t676.html
I like a lot about this games, just not sure about turns where I can't do much or at times, anything.
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I also wonder what people think of the dice mechanic that drives the game.
I didn't think about using bigger dice, but it did cross my mind to, say, stick 6 more dice in the bag each, and draw out 9 at a time.
That way you're more likely to get to move most things, and also get to play with some doubles.
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We talked about adding three more, one for each commander as extras or not removing dice for light troops that die. Each have some advantages and disadvantages.
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I'm not familiar with these rules, but can you roll more than 1 dice per unit?
If so is the intention that you focus your dice on part of the battle field for one turn, then another part later on?
Rather than using d8, you could just go with a flat +1 to activate. I know from other games (such as Warmaster and Hail Caesar) that having units that fall to activate around half the time becomes frustrating fairly quickly, at least those systems allow you the chance of multiple moves. It looses the feel of command and control and starts to feel a bit random.
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I'm not familiar with these rules, but can you roll more than 1 dice per unit?
Rather than using d8, you could just go with a flat +1 to activate. I know from other games (such as Warmaster and Hail Caesar) that having units that fall to activate around half the time becomes frustrating fairly quickly, at least those systems allow you the chance of multiple moves. It looses the feel of command and control and starts to feel a bit random.
Yes, I think the +1 might work. Each unit gets one die in the bag of dice and they are pulled randomly in groups of 7 and then sorted out between the players. The one with the most dice rolls and assigns first, then the other player. All ones are failures, while twos don't work most of the time. Yes, one side could have all seven dice so it is a lot random and lucky.
If so is the intention that you focus your dice on part of the battle field for one turn, then another part later on?
Yes I think so...however, the second player could play his dice elsewhere and let you do what you will while he does the same. For us, it seems a little unlikely that units would stand a watch the enemy march by, attack nearby units, melee, shot or whatever without doing something. I'm guessing the author would say that this could happen in short enough time that you just hadn't reacted yet, but if you have a lot happening you may not get to prioritize your dice to all the hot spots in your line. :o
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I know from other games (such as Warmaster and Hail Caesar) that having units that fall to activate around half the time becomes frustrating fairly quickly, at least those systems allow you the chance of multiple moves. It looses the feel of command and control and starts to feel a bit random.
The big difference in Sword & Spear compared the the games you mention, is that in Sword & Spear you roll the dice then allocate them to units. So you have to make the decision about which units to activate, rather than having the dice decide for you.
In a typical army (consisting of mainly average quality units, two or three better quality units and maybe one or two poor units) with average activation dice you should be able to activate most (around 70%) of your units each turn.
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Ok, that sounds good. You get to choose so as long as you get a spread of results you can activate a fair percentage. I suppose the problem comes when you want Io activate troops in a group and therefore use high dice when you don't have to.
The choosing to go where your opponent hasn't is always what happens in any sort of alternating activation. You want to go where it is most urgent, -and that is usually away from where your opponent has just gone, as those units are done for that turn.
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The choosing to go where your opponent hasn't is always what happens in any sort of alternating activation. You want to go where it is most urgent, -and that is usually away from where your opponent has just gone, as those units are done for that turn.
S&S is a bit different in that regard, coz one player has to nominate a bunch of units, without knowing what his opponents dice scores are, and then the opponent can give his orders, and with some decent dice, can nominate units to go before his opponent's will get a chance, or often he will need to give dice out to counteract his opponent's potential moves to even up the potential dice pools a bit.
So more often than not, in this game you're putting your dice in the same sort of places your opponent is.
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This all sounds good.
But going back to Warchariot's original concerns, it seems that there are bits that don't quite work.
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This all sounds good.
But going back to Warchariot's original concerns, it seems that there are bits that don't quite work.
Thanks everyone who has chimed in, especially Polkovnik the author. Unless you have played or at least read the rules, it is difficult to explain the interaction and therefore the issues I'm having with activation. We'll try the extra dice and the D8 and let you know what we think.
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Thanks everyone who has chimed in, especially Polkovnik the author. Unless you have played or at least read the rules, it is difficult to explain the interaction and therefore the issues I'm having with activation. We'll try the extra dice and the D8 and let you know what we think.
I have to say, we really enjoy S&S and now have about 8 - 10 chaps who play it quite a lot down at our club. We do not tweak or have house rules. I think it makes each player think out each turn more than with other sets.
It's nice to see other peoples views on the game, and may use some of the ideas in some party games I have planned
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We have played this period for 30+ years and felt S&S was a bit too random. We like TtS, but wanted to get away from the box movement. S&S has some great ideas and most work together very well. I can see why people like it and is why we'll house rule a few things to tailor it to our taste
Finally, want to apology to Gracchus Armisurplus for high jacking his post, these are great looking armies and well played game.
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We'll try the extra dice and the D8 and let you know what we think.
If you want to activate more units each turn then putting extra dice in the bag like you suggest (say one per commander, or maybe two for the C-in-C and one for each of the others) would make sense. This would mean that most turns you could activate all or nearly all of your units.
I wouldn't recommend using D8s though. As well as increasing the chances of activating units, this would greatly increase the liklihood of high action dice rolls which would make it much easier for units to carry out a manoeuvre, rather than a straight forward advance. I think this would results in units (even undrilled ones) whizzing around all over the place and it would lose the feeling of a big battle game.
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We have played this period for 30+ years and felt S&S was a bit too random. We like TtS, but wanted to get away from the box movement. S&S has some great ideas and most work together very well. I can see why people like it and is why we'll house rule a few things to tailor it to our taste
Finally, want to apology to Gracchus Armisurplus for high jacking his post, these are great looking armies and well played game.
It is actually my post, but feel free to hijack, if it brings out discussion about the rules used in the post
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If you want to activate more units each turn then putting extra dice in the bag like you suggest (say one per commander, or maybe two for the C-in-C and one for each of the others) would make sense. This would mean that most turns you could activate all or nearly all of your units.
I wouldn't recommend using D8s though. As well as increasing the chances of activating units, this would greatly increase the liklihood of high action dice rolls which would make it much easier for units to carry out a manoeuvre, rather than a straight forward advance. I think this would results in units (even undrilled ones) whizzing around all over the place and it would lose the feeling of a big battle game.
I like the extra dice for commanders, thanks Mark
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I suppose it comes down to how much frustration you want from the command and control aspects of the game, and how you like the C&C to be implemented. I don't think having parts of your force unwilling to commit is necessarily unrealistic, and having troops sitting there refusing to engage as the enemy moves past them seems pretty reasonable, especially for levies or inexperience/untrained troops.
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If you want to activate more units each turn then putting extra dice in the bag like you suggest (say one per commander, or maybe two for the C-in-C and one for each of the others) would make sense. This would mean that most turns you could activate all or nearly all of your units.
I wouldn't recommend using D8s though. As well as increasing the chances of activating units, this would greatly increase the liklihood of high action dice rolls which would make it much easier for units to carry out a manoeuvre, rather than a straight forward advance. I think this would results in units (even undrilled ones) whizzing around all over the place and it would lose the feeling of a big battle game.
If we go to D8s we would make the bonus on a roll of 8 and doubles. I would hope this would allow more activations, not more bonus dice.
Phil: thanks for clearing up that it is your post and that you don't mind where it has gone.
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Nice post, great armies!
thanks
n
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Nice post, great armies!
thanks
n
I think your site is great BTW We have been playing KoW Ancients for ages, with your lists!
Thanks