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Miniatures Adventure => Pulp => Topic started by: FramFramson on 13 January 2017, 08:43:57 AM
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Say Dave and Mila, have you ever considered 0-cost negative abilities (with some sort of positive, such allowing another ability to be +1 level), or abilities which confer both a positive and negative trait on a league member?
I understand the game has some abilities which are SORT of like the latter at least, such as "Animal" or "Brainy", but those generally involve only the absence of something rather than a new, negative ability.
I'd definitely understand if that had been considered and rejected, simply because many gamers are known to use to such abilities for min-maxing and this can make balancing a headache. But I was curious if it had ever been considered. It would be neat to have distinct negative abilities, such as a disloyal or cowardly ally who might run out on you, or an unlucky or clumsy ally with a tendency to blow die rolls.
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Yes! I've had very similar thoughts running through my head for a while. So many book and movie characters have distinctive negative qualities as well as positive ones, it'd be nice to be able to reflect that in game.
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Agreed.
I don't remember in which game (Astounding Tales?), but giving a negative skill to a character allows an addictional "positive" skill.
Maybe this can be limited to one negative skill only per character.
Marco
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I too have pondered this, but like the OP I too can see the danger of min/max or needless complexity to a smooth operating game.
Maybe it works better as a scenario driven thing as opposed to a standing trait, or maybe something to affect perks, but not individuals (just spit balling here)
There are ways of doing this without a disadvantage system.
In some stories/serials, there seems to be a screamer that attracts unwanted attention, so in a horror game this could be factored in during horror checks or horror card draws, where a failed horror test causes a scream which then attracts monsters (the dread monster magnet)
There is also susceptibilities like werewolves and silver. Instead of a disadvantage for the werewolf one would instead buy silver bullets as equipment 'special effects' granting +1D vs a specific werewolves. However those bullets would not grant a +1D vs other targets.
I had examples of cases where the disadvantage system might work, but I have apparently failed my cunning roll and have drawn a blank, o_o
More later...?
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Years ago, during playtesting Dad had a list of 20-30 disadvantages. He was calling them "flaws" at the time. For various reasons, we decided to leave them out of the final version of Pulp Alley. But the flaws/disadvantages thing is still something he talks about going back and adding in at least once a year. ;)
In general, we feel like a character's flaws and quirks are something we can easily do without needing rules for it. Based on how we play our characters there's no doubt that Ace suffers from overconfidence, and Pulp Girl has a fear of spiders... lol lol
Remember that a good number of abilities in Pulp Alley already include different disadvantages as part of the rules. Many of these came from Dad's old flaws list but were renamed -- Brainy, Mindless, Reanimated, Short Range, Big, Harmless, and so on.
For some free abilities, be sure to check out the Kits and Weapon Kits in Pulp Leagues. Most of these have some minor advantage coupled with a disadvantage.
Dad doesn't like the idea of continually adding new abilities to new books. For example, ToS did not include any new abilities or perks. Now that Pulp Leagues is out, it is intended to be the character book. So this conversation may be a good opportunity to ask, do you want more character abilities and other character creation based stuff in the upcoming books?
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Hi Wolf Girl
Mention of the kits contained in the league book, and tying in with another thread talking about perks v abilities, what is your take on armor for gangs?
Technically not on their list of items, but it might be nice to have some Imperial Storm Troopers!
Also
Are there any other 'Kit' items that might be good for gangs?
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Right, Imperial Storm Trooper armor is so gooood!! lol lol lol
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Hey!
They are proof against sticks and rocks from ewoks lol
Just watch out for someone coming at you armed with a banana... :)
Okay so maybe I want to give them some non permeable protection.
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@wolfgirl - i think keeping the character stuff in pulp leagues is the way to go, single source and all. But it might be good to include related kits in campaign books like nets, scuba tanks for an Atlantis book, machetes/hatchets for moving in jungle campaigns, lasers for space campaign. Just no capes for super hero scenarios.
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Back to the OP, you mean like an ability having a -1 modifier so you'd have to roll 5+ to succeed (near sighted, -1 to shooting). Seems a bit punitive to me, especially considering how i roll already.
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Years ago, during playtesting Dad had a list of 20-30 disadvantages. He was calling them "flaws" at the time. For various reasons, we decided to leave them out of the final version of Pulp Alley. But the flaws/disadvantages thing is still something he talks about going back and adding in at least once a year. ;)
In general, we feel like a character's flaws and quirks are something we can easily do without needing rules for it. Based on how we play our characters there's no doubt that Ace suffers from overconfidence, and Pulp Girl has a fear of spiders... lol lol
Remember that a good number of abilities in Pulp Alley already include different disadvantages as part of the rules. Many of these came from Dad's old flaws list but were renamed -- Brainy, Mindless, Reanimated, Short Range, Big, Harmless, and so on.
For some free abilities, be sure to check out the Kits and Weapon Kits in Pulp Leagues. Most of these have some minor advantage coupled with a disadvantage.
Dad doesn't like the idea of continually adding new abilities to new books. For example, ToS did not include any new abilities or perks. Now that Pulp Leagues is out, it is intended to be the character book. So this conversation may be a good opportunity to ask, do you want more character abilities and other character creation based stuff in the upcoming books?
I agree with Dave that new abilities need to be tested very carefully and that releasing too many is just a recipe for headaches and mess.
I also think that if we want to justify negative abilities, they would need to do something that the current "absence" negative abilities don't do, creating entirely new experiences, which is why things like a "disloyal" or "cowardly" ally come to mind (I guess you can do that with the horror deck, but that's a bit of a different situation).
As far as new abilities in general, well, don't like the idea of the list drying up forever, that somehow we have all the abilities for PA which will ever be created, full stop, it's over. A thin trickle of a few abilities per year seems fine to me, even if it's just 3-5 or even 2-3. I'm sure even you yourselves get new ideas you're tempted to try out now and then, so I'd hate to think you'd close that door on yourselves just to stick to an arbitrary number of abilities as "complete".
I also wouldn't be super super concerned that the Base book or Pulp Leagues book would need updating after 2-3 years and would need a further editions, or even (to a lesser degree) be noted as being an updated edited version of the same book. A few changes over time are natural enough when new content is still being made (and I don't think you or Dave are going to stop producing new content, though maybe supplements will slow down and miniatures/scenery will be come a little more important). It's only a bad sign when there's massive tinkering going on or constant changes. We're quite a ways away yet from anyone accusing your little operation of becoming GW-lite! lol
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Back to the OP, you mean like an ability having a -1 modifier so you'd have to roll 5+ to succeed (near sighted, -1 to shooting). Seems a bit punitive to me, especially considering how i roll already.
I had a think about that and I don't like it. Numbers tweaking is probably a bad idea. I think that rolling successes the current way a pretty key, core component to the game's appeal and simplicity. As I mentioned above, you'd want negative abilities to actually be interesting, to tell a story.
So, some ideas, I quickly thought of:
- A "cowardly" character who can be induced to run if an opponent meets some condition, which makes that character into a little "side game". Perhaps they run off the table or run around in a panic whenever a another of your allies is knocked down or some other "scary" condition is met.
- A double-dealing character who has a bonus to getting plot points, but runs away if you ever actually let them grab a plot point by themselves. Which might be interesting as a "sacrifice" to prevent the opponent getting a hotly-contested plot point. Such a character would mainly be useful when "supervised", such as when two of your characters work together to obtain a plot point requiring lots of rolls.
- A character who can "Critical miss", suffering some penalty if they roll any 1s. This would be separate from the normal effects of the die roll. Or even 1s AND 6s for more comedy (sort of a 3-stooges style of "success" lol).
- A character with a vendetta of some sort against an opponent's character (of equivalent level), such that the two separate themselves from the game to duel if they encounter one another.
- An "honourable" character who does have combat skills, but cannot initiate combat unless at some point prior an opponent's character has initiated combat with them first.
- A character with a specific code of morals or other strictures that makes them behave in an odd way (must move in a certain way or every other turn, never uses cover, etc.)
- A "loud" or otherwise annoying character who provides an enemy bonuses (your characters cannot use stealth near him, or are somehow easier to hit near him) or penalties to your own characters (makes resolving plot points more difficult unless he's alone).
Not all of these are great ideas and many may be too clunky to implement even if the idea is good or interesting. Just some quick thoughts tossed out there. Of those the only one which I'd really feel is close enough to a proper ability so far is the second. Something like
Double-Dealer: This character receives +1D when attempting to solve a plot point. While this character possesses a plot point, the plot point does not count towards your victory total, and you may not control them normally, instead this character moves towards the nearest table edge; if they reach it, both they and the plot point they are carrying are removed from the current game and are not awarded to anyone. While this character possesses a plot point, you can fight them as you would an opposing character. Leaders may not have this ability (maybe you don't need this clause? Might be interesting to have a greedy leader who has to be restrained by his flunkies!).
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I don't remember in which game (Astounding Tales?), but giving a negative skill to a character allows an addictional "positive" skill.
Savage Worlds, a light RPG system, does exactly that. There's many varieties of Savage Worlds, including a Pulp version. I think it's frequently worthwhile to rip off (borrow) ideas from other game systems.
Funny that I was wondering earlier today, before I saw this thread, "Why doesn't Pulp Alley use this idea of negative characteristics to offset positive ones the way Savage Worlds does?"
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@wolfgirl - i think keeping the character stuff in pulp leagues is the way to go, single source and all. But it might be good to include related kits in campaign books like nets, scuba tanks for an Atlantis book, machetes/hatchets for moving in jungle campaigns, lasers for space campaign. Just no capes for super hero scenarios.
"No capes darling" lol
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One table I keep forgetting to use is the Harrowing Escapes table at the back of Perilous Island (or the shorter list in the first book). This could be a nice place to put some advantageous disadvantages--at least for the next game. One that occurred to me was "misses the first two turns of their next game, but functions as a random associate."
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I like your list, Fram. Those are the kinds of things that could be a lot of fun.
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I've experimented with scenario/character-specific characteristics similar to some of those mentioned.
I called one 'Benny' that a particular ally possessed: If they failed a horror check when confronted by one of the supernatural baddies they changed sides and became an agent of the opposing player.
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... As far as new abilities in general, well, don't like the idea of the list drying up forever, that somehow we have all the abilities for PA which will ever be created, full stop, it's over....
Honestly, I don't think I could stop designing/playtesting new abilities even if I wanted. There are about a half dozen or so being considered for the Lemuria campaign.
Also, I am certainly interested on seeing more comments about what sort of negative abilities our players would like to have. So please feel free to share your suggestions.
HAVE FUN
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Thinking a bit more on this. - there's abilities that allow rerolls for fails/misses so why not have some rerolls for successes; near-sighted = reroll successful shooting roll, clumsy = reroll the first passed peril. Character story is then reenforced/supported in game play.
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Forgetful. Has a +1 d to pass a challenge for a plot point, but if the reward is a tip it doesn't count. He forgot.
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I'm not (too) sure how Pulp Alley works, but if you're worried about min-maxing just give all drawbacks a kicker that makes them relevant.
Like Indiana Jones with his Phobia (Snakes) means that there's a high chance that any peril(?) will involve snakes in some way.
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(http://i.imgur.com/TXwTMSZ.jpg)
I've painted up a league of Pulp Figures' cultists and cult leaders, except I haven't painted the obvious leader until now--the guy sitting on the throne. But he's an egregiously cool figure--what advantage would make up for not being able to move? The Mastermind perk provides a free sidekick and 6 extra slots in place of a level 4 character--perhaps the "can't move ability" would let him buy a second sidekick? Anyone have any thoughts?
While pondering this one, I also wondered what would be the equivalent positive to make up for a skill that made your leader's corpse be an automatic plot point.
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I ran a bunch of Super World and Savage Worlds rpg's in years gone by and they both had disadvantages that could buy a few extra points in character creation. Min maxing never seemed much of a problem and we quickly found out that the disadvantages were just that and only used them if we really wanted it for the "Character" or just to get a couple of points extra for some ting else we REALLY wanted.
I like the idea and use Animal quite a lot. Fram has great ideas. You would have to make the disadvantages something more rule oriented than role playing oriented obviously. Double dealing sound like a gas and super cinematic!