Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of the Big Battalions => Topic started by: French on 17 January 2017, 08:42:52 PM
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I have 15mm armies of both sides and am wondering how do I figure out who has what flags.
How do I decide all that, or am I just making it more complicated then it needs to be?
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Much depends on what period or sphere of the war you play. Different Confederate armies carried different flags, the Union carried much the same throughout, the national colour was very similar, but each state had its own flag too.
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I suppose I'll pick a year, 1863 lets say.
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M'kay, now pick a pair of armies. Or at least a theater. Northern Virginia, Tennessee and the upper Mississippi Valley (Vicksburg) are popular choices. Louisiana, the Carolina coast and the Indian Territory are some less-known alternatives, generally in a smaller scale.
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Well lets go with Tennessee
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Okay, let's.
As has been noted, Federal volunteer regiments were ordered to carry two colors of standard patterns, a stars-and-stripes national flag and a blue regimental flag with a spread bald eagle in natural colors. With some exceptions, these orders were followed. There could be minor variations in the arrangements of the stars in the canton of the national flag. There could be detail differences in the portrait of the eagle on the regimental flag. Many regiments carried titles and battle honors on the stripes of their national flag, but these are hardly visible in 15mm scale. Here is a link to some Federal ACW wargame flags in standard patterns, free for the downloading. They're 25mm scale, you'll have to resize them. Generally, these are what you use for the Yankees, unless you have specific information to the contrary for a particular regiment. If your units are very small, you might build them with just the national flag, 'cuz just six or eight 15mm figures with two flags looks silly.
http://www.warflag.com/flags/acw/usclassic.shtml
Yes, it's true that some Federal regiments carried state flags, usually in place of the standard regimental color. The state flags were generally not the same as the current US state flags. Carrying a state flag was exceptional, so you want to have specific information for a particular regiment, like the 54th Massachusetts and their documented white Massachusetts state flag. Who weren't in Tennessee. All the instances I can think of off-hand were in the Army of the Potomac.
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http://civilwartalk.com/threads/original-confederate-flag-proposals.118458/
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I don't plan to have them really small, not sure how big the armies will be yet as I have more stuff in the mail.
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The main Confederate army in the west was the Army of Tennessee. Nothing about this army was simple. A scholarly book was published on AoT flags in 1976 that is a treasure, but probably more expense and trouble than you want to go, to get a copy:
https://www.amazon.com/Battle-Flags-Confederate-Army-Tennessee/dp/0893260754
Fortunately, a lot of information is available online these days:
http://www.confederate-flags.org/confederate%20army%20of%20mississippi.html
http://www.confederate-flags.org/confederate%20army%20of%20tennessee.html
By 1863, regiments of the AoT had been ordered to carry a single battle flag each, and most of the army had standardized on a Southern Cross, similar to the flag that Gen. Beauregard had designed for the Army of Northern Virginia, but usually rectangular, rather than square as in the ANV. Several different lots were manufactured and issued, with detail differences in size, shape, borders and the arrangement of the stars.
The regiments of Gen. Hardee's old corps usually kept their unique battle flag, which bore a white circle on a blue field, again with many minor variations. Some of the distinctive Polk's corps battle flags, a white or red rectangular or diagonal cross on a blue field, probably stayed in service through 1863, although many of Polk's regiments were issued Southern Cross flags.
In general, flags in a brigade or a division would be similar, since they were usually issued at one time from a single source. However, this rule is complicated by brigades and divisions sometimes being transferred from one higher command to another in army reorganizations. Also, regiments and larger formations that joined the army as reinforcements might keep their original colors, most often a First National Stars and Bars, for some time. Finally, regiments that lost their colors, in action or by accident, might improvise a non-standard replacement, often an obsolete pattern taken from storage, such as an old Stars and Bars or state flag, or even a Bonnie Blue, or whatever they could lay hands on. I've seen examples that looked like church flags pressed into service.
So, for best accuracy, you need to research in detail the particular formation you're modelling. Good luck - there are people who make that a lifetime avocation.
On the other hand, if you just want to give the impression of a generic division or two from the AoT c.1863, I'd say use the western version of the Southern Cross throughout, unless you want to model Hardee's corps. If you feel adventurous, you might sprinkle in a few First National or old Polk's corps battle flags.
Here is another link to a Warflag Confederate flags page, that includes some western examples. Note that Warflag hosts both 'classic' and 'textured' versions of ACW flags. I kind of prefer the textured versions, because the colors are darker, but not all examples are available in both versions. So look things over:
http://www.warflag.com/flags/acw/csatext.shtml
Have fun.
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Thanks for the link, would it be uncommon for confederates there to have a state flag in a regement along with the battle flag?
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Another question, did Union cavalry have the same hats as the troops, I have a bunch and from what I have seen in some pictures they had both but no idea if that was a place thing or what.
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In 1862, commanders of the major Confederate armies issued orders that units under their command should carry only one color of a specified pattern. This was done primarily to improve friend-or-foe identification on the battlefield. The Confederate Stars and Bars First National flag was easily mistaken for the Stars and Stripes, while flags with a blue field were easy to mistake for a Federal Regimental color. Beauregard designed a battleflag that was predominantly red and easy to distinguish even through poor visibility.
So, after early 1862, it would be very unusual for a Confederate regiment to carry a state flag.
Union cavalry wore the same headgear as the other arms. The cavalry Hardee hat had the brim pinned up on the opposite side from the infantry and artillery models, but the Hardee hat was rarely worn in the field. The forage cap was more common early in the war, among fresh troops, and in the eastern theaters. Black slouch hats (not Hardee hats) were adopted by more men as the war wore on, especially in the west. From photos, it seems that units usually wore one style or the other, possibly regulated by order, rather than a mix.
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I see what you mean, I'll most likely post pictures to clarify but I am pretty sure I can identify things now.
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In 1862, commanders of the major Confederate armies issued orders that units under their command should carry only one color of a specified pattern.
So, after early 1862, it would be very unusual for a Confederate regiment to carry a state flag.
What is your source? I'm just curious. How do you account for the many State colours that were captured "in battle" after the Seven Days Campaign?
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The Seven Days battles were fought June 25 - July 1, 1862, still the first half of 1862.
Confederate armies began 1862 still depending on state sources for uniforms and often carrying multiple colors, including state flags - note that these were often not the modern state flags, but instead patterns that had been specified for the several state armies, before the formation of the Confederate States, such as the Louisiana Pelican and Stripes, or Alabama's Cotton Boll version of the Bonnie Blue.
It was during 1862 that the Confederate government took over manufacturing and issuing uniforms to the armies, and orders were promulgated standardizing regimental colors and other features. By 1863, the main Confederate armies had been standardized.
On the other hand, Shiloh and Pea Ridge were other major battles, fought in early 1862, where the Confederate armies were still fairly chaotic, and where you could document many state uniforms and flags, and also much civilian clothing in use by Confederate soldiers.
For sources...earlier in this thread I cited and linked to Madaus and Needham Battle Flags of the Confederate Army of Tennessee. I also linked to web pages documenting western Confederate flags, written by Howard Madaus and other experts. If you follow those links back to the main Confederate Flags page, you will find pages describing flags of the eastern Confederate armies and other topics:
http://www.confederate-flags.org/
If you need a hard copy source on Army of Northern Virginia flags, I recommend Richard Rollins The Damned Red Flags of the Rebellion: The Struggle Over the Confederate Battle Flag at Gettysburg, which documents the colors carried by ANV regiments in the Gettysburg campaign, from army orders and captured examples. Rollins establishes that by 1863, ANV regiments complied with orders to carry only one battleflag of the standard pattern.
http://www.alibris.com/The-Damned-Red-Flags-of-the-Rebellion-The-Struggle-Over-the-Confederate-Battle-Flag-at-Gettysburg-Richard-Rollins/book/30018067
I hope this helped.
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Got an epic crapton of Cavalry,
(https://scontent.fybz1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16265266_414132712252352_638143548973275808_n.jpg?oh=f48e77dd302d8f9b1af78213439dd20f&oe=59115712)
I assume the ones with the wide hats are Confederate, like the infantry, did the Union ever wear those hats on horseback, or stick to those little hats, like the infantry?
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Usual rule of thumb is that the Confederates mostly wore slouch hats, while the Federals mostly wore forage caps. This was true for infantry, cavalry and artillery on both sides.
Western Federal troops often wore slouch hats from fairly early in the war, although the forage cap remained in wide use.
You've picked the Tennessee theater in 1863 to model your forces. In that case, I'd advise Confederates in hats with a sprinkling of caps, and Federals mostly in caps. If you have a surplus of hats, you could model Federals in hats. Federal slouch hats were almost always black. There are anecdotes of Federal troops in the deep south (Louisiana, Florida) wearing straw hats, but I haven't heard of this in Tennessee.
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Most of my infantry have the hats, if that makes a difference I can always change my direction to model my forces, such is the result of buying second handed.
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Nah, Federal infantry in hats in Tennessee in 1863 is fine. If you have fewer caps, put all your Rebs in hats and save the caps for some of the Federal units.
I *love* getting a crapton of figures second-hand. Part of the fun is figuring out how best to use the odd bits. One time I painted up a regiment of SYW French dragoons in fur hats using surplus Austrian horse grenadier officer figures. Arguably they should have had their coat-tails pinned up rather than flapping loose, but pfft, 15mm, who's gonna see it at three feet? More recently I painted up a batch of 25mm draft horses for some 18th century limbers. I needed postillions to fill saddles - I drafted some cowboys in nondescript slouch hats and sack coats. Carved the revolvers out of their hands and filed the mustaches off their faces - they look pretty darn good as 18th century teamsters.
Actually, one of my favorite novels is Philip K. Dick's Confessions of a Crap Artist. I get it, I really get it.
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Its easy for say Warhammer, since in 40k or fantasy anything is what I want it to be (within reason).
Historics I want to get right.
I did get these, which I have no clue what they are...
(https://scontent.fybz1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16265221_414245608907729_8939981296471421837_n.jpg?oh=1b04b4d2ef105375e62e511539939a6e&oe=59179689)
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Sorry, I can't see those well enough to tell you. Pretty sure they're not ACW. Are the riders all wearing helmets? Do some of the helmets have turbans and others not? Could be two different sets of figures. Do their coats have turned back skirts? They *might* be SYW or AWI or French Rev light dragoons...shmaybe. Did they come with horses? What do those look like?
Lookit the figures in the pix in the '28mm AWI 17th Light Dragoons' thread, a little lower down this page. Is that them? Or some of them?
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I think they are those Dragoons, also that dude in the weird navy looking hat, couldn't figure out his deal.
I'll try to snap one of him.
Some of the more interesting things I've gotten was some horse wagons and guys pulling horses and a bunch of wounded and dead Confederates.
They'll all get painted at some point, but right now its the Kentucky Volunteers
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Getting to some Union guys, are these flags special due to the shape or are they just a neat shape? Were they for Cavalry or Infantry or what?
(http://www.warflag.com/flags/acw/tfed6.gif)
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The swallow-tail flags on that sheet are cavalry guidons. Cavalry had regimental flags, but usually didn't carry them in the field. Guidons were carried one per troop. Wargamers often model an ACW cavalry regiment with one guidon on the command flat, as if it was the regimental color.
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Its easy for say Warhammer, since in 40k or fantasy anything is what I want it to be (within reason).
Historics I want to get right.
I did get these, which I have no clue what they are...
(https://scontent.fybz1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16265221_414245608907729_8939981296471421837_n.jpg?oh=1b04b4d2ef105375e62e511539939a6e&oe=59179689)
The figure on the left in black looks like it might be an American Regular for the Mexican-American War. The helmeted cav might be Minifigs French Dragoons.