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Miniatures Adventure => Weird Wars => Topic started by: Ryltar Thamior on 25 January 2017, 05:58:18 PM
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Intro/Background [AKA: The Boring Bit] :
Many years ago as a schoolboy just starting to dabble with the realms of wargaming beyond 40k, I discovered this wonderful forum while in pursuit of inspirational material for my then-budding pulp/WWWII endeavors. Sadly, these didn't really progress beyond the building and painting of a few Panzers (the twin tyrannies of teenage finances and heading off to lead an interesting life at and after uni sort of getting in the way). But the other day, on a whim, I stopped back past this sub-forum. I'd relatively recently started cranking out 40k again, as well as more properly reading real-world materials, so it seemed like the logical thing to do.
First thing to find itself 'neath my mouse's blinking cursor was Wyrmalla's excellent Thaw of '46 thread.
Immediately, I iwas hooked. Because this represented a vision and a theme for "WWWII" which I could get into. One which didn't attempt to incorporate some of the more gauche (and overt) 'weirdness' of other settings (seemingly everybody - even Gear Krieg - seemed to insist upon German Zombies for some reason; or 'handwavium' powered super-tech which used the former to avoid answering interesting questions or making properly fleshed-out concepts; or superheroes; etc. etc. etc.) .... but instead sought to make intriguing points of distinction from 'conventional' WWII through extended timelines, and rather excellent applications of post-war military developments to the mid-1940s [seriously - what caused me to have the flutterings of 'love' for what's been achieved here was taking a look at that "Griffon" IFV and just going "yes" about how it simultaneously represented a contemporary [to us] concept, a logical development of German doctrine [following on from halftracks-with-support-weapons], and a sensible use for now-less-than-state-of-teh-art surplus AFVs in-timeline]. [Oh, I should probably add that I've done a bit of Cold War and Moderns gaming in the past, and it's always felt 'odd' to me taking the steps back in time to WWII gaming after having done so - tactics that would just be utterly ridiculous in the late 20th century become a normal thing in the middle of it.
Anyway ... enough digression. I'm back here after a decade because ...
Der Plan
Because I intend to build not one - but two - Alternative World War Two armies. One German, and one Soviet. Both using equipment which could feasibly be expected to be fielded in the mid-late 1940s presuming the conflict not only continued well after 1945 - but also that technical development had accelerated somewhat as a result. [as an additional restriction, these forces will be rather Armour-heavy - both because I haven't thought too much about late-alternate-war infantry, and because I'm bad enough at painting human-sized figures in 28mm, never mind 15!]
Now, most people would presumably be rubbing their hands with glee about all the E-Series, and Kätzchen models that have been released in recent years for something like this. But I haven't had a credit card for some years now (and am yet to look into getting Paypal operational), so I'll mostly be restricting myself to what I can actually find in physical game-stores here. "Here", being New Zealand ... which somewhat restricts the pickings.
Although fortunately, we're also home to Battlefront/Flames of War - so that'll be the first port of call. I've taken a browse through their ranges - paying particular attention to the early Cold War items available through their Six Day War line, as well as some of the "Mid-War Monsters" - and have got the beginnings of a list of purchases going.
I like to plan things out reasonably well in advance, you see.
The Soviets are going to be relatively easy to sort - the T-54 being completed and ready to go in our timeline by mid-1945, and the IS-3 rolling around in military parades by a few months later make them both somewhat auto-includes. I can also well see a role for various assault guns which were in late-war service still sticking around; and even the T-34/85 [although i'm also wondering as to other uses for the chassis]. Most of the above are even available in plastic kits!
The Germans, however, are a bit of another story. There are some potential contenders for largely unconverted or semi-converted stock models, which may either represent units which haven't had their vehicles upgraded, relatively good equipment that is still in service, or previously-flawed designs which have been modified for greater workability. Panthers and Jagdpanthers fall under the first two categories. Some varieties of tank-hunting Panzer IV derivative may fit into the first. And Tiger IIs could well be incorporated into the third.
I'm also looking forward to taking a stab at some of the more 'modern-style' IFV conversions which Wyrmalla's engaged in - albeit on a rather smaller scale, and with probably nothing like the finesse; although I'm a little hard-pressed for ideas to keep the Wehrmacht's chassies fighting on past 1945 beyond that. [one idea I was kicking around would be to take the well-known German expertise at rocketry, and extrapolate it out to developing primitive TOWs for a new breed of tank destroyer based on otherwise-obsolete Panzer IV chassis in th esame way that the real-world Bundeswehr created the Jaguar series]
So that, I guess, is
Where You Lot Come In:
I'm not hugely knowledgeable about WWII or the early Cold War - particularly on the technical side of things. I appreciate reading some of the discussions here, because it allows me to tap into your collective wisdom (and enthusiasm) for inspiration. Which, I guess, is why I'm back here after a decade rather than elsewhere.
So if you've got some ideas for what I can do with this, please don't hesitate to let me know!
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Well there is this Wikipedia item: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruhrstahl_X-4 (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruhrstahl_X-4)
Wikipedia warnings apply.
http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research/collections/rheinmetall-borsig-feuerlilie-fire-lilly/ (http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research/collections/rheinmetall-borsig-feuerlilie-fire-lilly/)
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Wyrmalla has inspired me to a similar project, though its can has been kicked a little down the road. I look forward to seeing what you do, and chipping in with help where I can! Have you considered Eureka Miniatures' sci-fi Germans and Cold War minis as the basis for conversions? I believe they're in Aus - they might have a physical presence across the water.
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Point one: see, I told you all, my stupid thread titles work! Point two: woo someone mentioned me in their thread! Point three: I have no originality, go read other people thread's before you look too closely and find out I'm a horrible fraud.
Wait, this is someone else's thread, I can't just sit here and gloat all day.And well, I've no idea how you found this site, I just typed in "Fallout miniatures" years back and found one a particular board.... :)
I don't know much about 15mm myself, so can't be much help there. Though there tends to be much more stuff available in every scale *other* than 28mm for alternative history stuff (hell you can't even buy some of the more common stuff in 28mm these days let alone paper panzers).
Load of toss incoming:
The Soviets were years ahead of the everyone in terms of tank design. The Germans were good at making specialist stuff, but in practical terms they'd have lost out to the Soviets in the long run if it came down just to tanks. Now, that's assuming however that the German factories were being bombed day and night like in the real world, and that they didn't see the light and start making more "standard panzers". Perhaps without as much a threat of having the roof over your head blown up every day Axis weapons developers would have come out with better stuff. Regardless, if the war's ongoing then we could find the Soviets piggy backing off of German kit to a different degree. Post-war military development was heavily influenced by those German technicians who were captured - with clear nods to the prototypes which they were developing near the end. You could maybe get away with intermingling parts from German kits with Soviet tanks to show them stealing ideas, but not as wholesale as they did in real life.
The T-54 was indeed made near the end of the war, though it wouldn't hit anywhere near decent production levels for years. If they were to be issued they'd probably be done as whole units, rather than individual tanks as in real life (that's again, just my subjective opinion). T-44s were supposed to replace the T-34 prior to the Soviets realising just what they had struck upon with the T-54. A T-44s, at 15mm, is just a T-34/85 turret on a T-54 chassis. Those were prepped for service in WWII, but sat in Russia for the duration as command were scared the Allies may find out about them and exploit their developments.
That last note on secrecy's probably prudent as well. In the Cold War the Soviets didn't want the Allies to know they were on par technology wise with them, going out of their way to make "Monkey Models" (i.e. downgraded variants of their equipment) to ship to their allies when fighting the West so as to spread misinformation. In a total war situation they wouldn't have held back as much, though similarly they may have. Perhaps a way of showing this subterfuge would be to mix up parts of Cold War tanks with WWII ones (besides the T-44), or downgrade what the early Cold War stuff was armed with?
tanks-encyclopedia.com is a good website for the development of tanks. It tends to be more reliable than your typical paper panzer sites, and doesn't focus so much on the cult of the wonder waffen. Just surfing around there you can find out about all sorts of weird stuff, besides just generally how stuff progressed. Special shout out goes to their Japanese WWII tanks page, I never new they had such "modern" tank designs in WWII, but lack of resources and preparation for invasion of the home islands meant they were never fielded (and they were scrapped pretty sharpish post-war).
As you mentioned, tactics developed. On both sides by 1945 we'd seen a move away from the massed assault formation tactics of the early war towards smaller units. If manpower began to become an issue, though perhaps raw materials were still somewhat steady then making the individual soldier or vehicle more effective would be more of a priority. In my own case that involved yes the inclusion of IFVs and giving the guys rudimentary body armour and Assault Rifles. For the Soviets it'd be easy enough to use Engineer models for those, and WWI armoured Germans could also work. Bear in mind though, whilst the Germans late in the war planned to use a ton of ARs, and the Soviets loved SMGs, for decades after the war most men were armed with standard rifles. Sure the AK-47 was made during the war, though how many guys actually managed to get one outside of the elite units?
** See, this spiel had bloody paragraph breaks and everything. The next one will have page headers...
A large number of the "Paper Panzers" which people popularise, or even make it into games with fanciful history, would not have seen production. The conceit was that the manufacturing plants wanted contacts. You got contracts by promising the higher ups the world. With those they'd then put a bare bones team on the project as they used all that attention they getting to steal away more conventional vehicle orders. The E-100 was being worked on by 3 guys in a back lot by the end of the war, even if it was supposed to be a more practical Maus, that shows you just how little the engineers actually thought it would work (the British who later looked at the thing shared a similar opinion). This is all not to mention that Albert Speer wasn't afraid to cancel the more outlandish projects.
Now on that note, depending on the setting which your going for, there's always the Rudolph Hess, Rinhard Heydrich and Erwin Rommel cards. All of them were out of the game before the Allies made it to Normandy, and whilst obviously in an alt-history timeline where the war is still happening, neither would have been used to full effectiveness, they still could have some influence. Hess was a saner head than Hitler, which was probably why he was extradited from the party after trying to sign a peace treaty with Britain. Heydrich was a monster, though proved extremely effective at organising the regimes in dominated countries - with him alive there may have been more popular support for the party there (debatable). Rommel, assuming anyone listened to him, had his own plans for the war in Europe ...which would have ended with Germany signing a peace treaty as the Allies marched on Paris. Assuming that didn't happen you could play him as a more effective tactician on the Eastern Front, so even if the Germans were losing, with him they could maybe do it a bit more gracefully. * This is all based on my own personal bias obviously, and makes a lot of concessions for the political environment at the time (you could have effective military leaders working for you, though all it would take would be Hitler having a hissy fit to make them useless - thus why most alt-history settings tend to have Hitler suffer a Deus Ex Machina stroke early on)
Post-war progress on light/ medium tanks outside the E-series. Mid way through the war before the E-series came about the Germans intended to convert all non-heavy tanks over to one or two chassis (I'm not aware of the timeline myself, so one may have superseded the other). There was the Panzer III/ IV - which visually would just be the Panzer IV with a longer engine deck, and the Panzer 38 (d) - a 38 (t) with longer tracks (but the same number of wheels) and a widened hull. There would've been standard turreted panzers, but the intent was to use them for specialist vehicles whilst the Panther took over the main battle tank role. If the E-Series did not exist, those two could be your light and medium tanks, with upgraded Panthers and Tiger IIs as the heavies (I'd keep the proper heavy tanks still in use up until the 50s like as was the case in reality before the world switched over to standard tanks like the T-54). If you can find ones on the cheap then swapping out the heavy tank's road wheels for non-interleaved ones would a good indication of their advancement (maybe even stick a Leopard turret on top of a Tiger II body with American tracks for a Tiger III - though I'm not sure if that'd show up well in the scale)..
Yes, Germany made use of plenty of rockets during the war, and again yes, they had *plans for smaller scale or vehicle mounted ones. IIRC there was one which was supposed to use the heavy tanks as a mount (Paper Panzers sell it). In anything above 15mm scale though they wouldn't see much use in a game due to the ranges however.
Germany had rudimentary ATGMs at the end of the war. They were inaccurate, but existed. I'd have stuck one on that second Panther II, though didn't have the space. Depending on the setting you're going for I'd say it'd take them 1-2 years to have something workable, then it'd be the same number of years again before the enemy had them. ATGMs are where missile/ rocket development for AFVs went in the real world. Notably post-war the West German army had their own style of Jagdpanzer, however those later had their guns removed and replaced with an ATGM mount.
** this is the point when I notice I've typed like 5 paragraphs of guff. Don't worry, I retroactively come back and put in these snitty comments which justify it. :)
I haven't read them myself, but the Red Gambit series may be a good piece of reading material. They're set immediately post-war in our timeline, where the Western Allies go to war with the Soviet Union, so could be somewhere to base your history. Particularly in that that'd allow you to play a German force similar to modern Germany, but with WWII era and paper panzers rather than American stuff. Not to say that's what you should do; its just one area which I don't think I've seen many people cover.
That or just search Wikipedia page on alternative history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alternate_history_fiction
Or TV tropes: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlternateHistory - I don't know about you; that's how I find about about everything
I'm waffling at this point. Give me a box to stand on and I'll just go on for ages on completely OT crap... (luckily then I've moved onto a setting I know jack all about instead of my video game threads here). ;)
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I think Wymalla hit most of the buttons, one of the pleasures of Alt War/Weird War is the flexibility, depending on how much wibble you want to add. If your plan is to keep it rooted in the wars final year/s Wymalla's already mentioned all the Soviet kit (probably still largely T-34 based, with more breakthrough IS-2 batallions - but they'd probably risk their new kit, so IS-3's & even 4's - revealing their shortcomings in the process - also, as Wymalla said, early version T-54's could make an appearance), while the Germans potentially might be forced to rely more heavily on assault gun & tank destroyer fixed casemate types (so StuGs, Pj IV's & Jagdpanthers) due to their being quicker, easier, & cheaper to manufacture. The Panther would probably soldier on for another year or two, but it's likely that it'd be in the form of the Ausf F & later, with the Schmalturm (again, easier, quicker & cheaper as well as being fractionally superior ballistically - Peter Pig make a turret for 15mm) - & hopefully theyd've fixed the final drive issues. The Tiger II would probably still be going, but the concentration of resources & sheer time/expense of their constuction would probably reduce them to a trickle of replacements.
Once you head past '46, ironically, your choices could open up, after all, something drastic would have had to have happened for the war to continue, but if you allow for the Germans to have found a way of producing the fuel they needed & reducing the effectiveness/scale of both the allied bombing campaign & the soviets numerical advantage you can start to hypothesise arms development.
APCs/IFV's would be a natural place to start, the manpower drain on all nations (even the Soviet Union) might well prompt attempts to provide greater protection for their increasingly scarce troops. Obsolete tank types could provide a source of chassis.
As for tanks, I'd have thought that the Germans in particular would have to bite the bullet & sanction the creation of new types - with the knowledge that biggest is no guarantee of best (this of course supposes a rationality that clearly didn't exist - to produce the eapons you needed rather than 'war-winning super whatever'). To me at least, this points to the adoption of something that fits in the E-50 slot, doesn't have to be one, but would have to tick the boxes - gun of 88 - 105 mm, armour somewhere between the Panther & the Tiger II, simplified suspension (tell the driver to bring a cushion) an engine of 900-1200hp & weighing 45-60 tons (you could substitute new plastic BF's Leopard I's). Also it's producability would be key & this would give you something that could take on anything it was likely to meet with at least a degree of confidence (& hopefully have some degree of upgadeability).
As for models to represent stuff - well BF's stuff, especially now a lot of it's in plastic, certainly provides the raw material for conversions, but both Heer46 & Forged In Battle (part of WestWind) have some Weird War stuff which could be useful - hope that's of some use!
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Oh wow. Excellent replies, gentlemen. Thank you :D That's what I love about good forums such as this - the way in which a question and some exploration makes for better results through such active collaboration!
Well there is this Wikipedia item: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruhrstahl_X-4 (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruhrstahl_X-4)
Wikipedia warnings apply.
http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research/collections/rheinmetall-borsig-feuerlilie-fire-lilly/ (http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research/collections/rheinmetall-borsig-feuerlilie-fire-lilly/)
Thanks for pointing that piece of kit out! I'd seen something vaaguely similar in one of my old Gear Krieg rulebooks (and, upon looking it up - it's mentioned in the "African Theater" book; functioning as a secondary weapon on a Tiger I [which makes questionable sense to me - as it's also mounting an 88, thus making it rather redundant; as noted, it'd make far more sense as a way to modernize and up-gun a lighter vehicle chassis]) - but it's great to know that there's an actual historical basis for the weapon-system in question in the form of the X-7. [although with a thousand-meter operational range, unless there were quantitative improvements in penetrative capacity over canon, it becomes perhaps a bit questionable as a vehicular-mounted weapon when compared to say a Nashorn. This doesn't, however, rule a derivative out as a Soviet-style IFV-secondary weapon; and further design improvements may have granted subsequent developments sufficient range (and accuracy at range) to make them a viable alternative to up-gunning tank-destroyer conversions. Or, if made lighter and man-portable, potentially usaable in a role analogous to a TOW-team from the later 20th century.]
Raketenjagdpanzers ahoy! [I did also consider mounting them on lighter vehicles, in a manner similar to how various real-world militaries have used wheeled vehicles such as the modern Stryker chassis, or the older Soviet BRDM platform as ATGM-carriers. If superior range were able to be delivered over standard tank cannon, then a lighter-skinned mounting platform suddenly becomes more practicable - perhaps at cheaper cost than converting a tank-chassis. There is also some precedent for the German use of armoured cars as anti-tank platforms - the Sdkfz 234/4, or the SdKfz 8 with an 88 as a bunker-buster; and also the 251/22. Guess it depends upon i) the mobility of the chassis, ii) how important durability is likely to be regarded as - which is a function of whether the weaponsystem is envisaged as operating within enemy range, and iii) and other doctrinal/ideological factors relating to force organization [i.e. what units and sorts of unit are prioritized when it comes to handing out the [expensive] fancy new toys]]
Which brings us on to the next question ... how to model them.
The most obvious way to do so would be an external launch-rail - similar to what you used to see on the old BMP-1. The disadvantage of this being the requirement to work out a way to model a rather small rocket :P
Another possibility would be a launch-tube (similar to many historic ATGM systems, and for that matter the one found on the BMP-2). Or, for that matter, launch-*tubes* (as, for example, we find on the BRDMs mounting Spandrels, or - for that matter - German rocket artillery).
[I did also give brief consideration to something rather more slapdash - taking GW terminator cyclone missile launchers and sticking them on in place of a turret - but that would lead to some questionable aesthetics.]
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Wyrmalla has inspired me to a similar project, though its can has been kicked a little down the road. I look forward to seeing what you do, and chipping in with help where I can! Have you considered Eureka Miniatures' sci-fi Germans and Cold War minis as the basis for conversions? I believe they're in Aus - they might have a physical presence across the water.
Thanks for the input :D I've never seen Eureka in-stores here (possibly because the population density of the average NZ city tends to militate against actual wargaming shops - most of them have closed down or 'diversified' into becoming more generic geek-culture hotspots in pursuit of the anime-dollar, over the last few years :/ ) ... but I'm presuming that these are the chaps you mean? http://eurekamin.com.au/index.php?cPath=87_102_107&sort=3a They definitely look interesting.
I do need to do some actual thinking about what I'm wanting to do with the German infantry here. As has been pointed out in Wyrmalla's excellent response [which I'm just about to read again and reply to], by this stage in a hypothetical extended-conflict, a prime German consideration would be making greater use of comparatively limited supplies of manpower. The body-armour on the Eureka figs would definitely convey one of the force-multipliers he's mentioned [as well as potentially some advancements in weapon-design, although I do note that some of the squad-support weapons do appear to veer on the "sci fi" side of things :P ]
Interestingly enough, one of the alternatives I was actually considering for German infantry were the US infantry which Battlefront have released for their Team Yankee Cold War range. The main rationale for this was the overt resemblance of the PASGT US helmet to the German Stahlhem; although the obvious differences in weaponry (even at 15mm) rendered this somewaht impracticable.
In any case, I suspect Wyrmalla has the right of it in what he's done with his thread - infantry units being a 'mixed bag' of older-style rifles, newer-style assault weaponry .. and the ever-present support weapons and anti-tank goodies. Which requires me to start to think about what shape German man-portable AT might have taken at this point. Gosh, I love how answers lead on to further quetsions :P
[another option as applies body-armour may be for me to attempt to break out the greenstuff to up-armour infantry myself - although working in 15mm might be asking for trouble]
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Interestingly enough, one of the alternatives I was actually considering for German infantry were the US infantry which Battlefront have released for their Team Yankee Cold War range. The main rationale for this was the overt resemblance of the PASGT US helmet to the German Stahlhem; although the obvious differences in weaponry (even at 15mm) rendered this somewaht impracticable.
Have you thought about using the new East germans? The East German helmet was, I believe, actually a ww2 German design that was never adopted during the war. The AK47s would probably pass for STG44s at 15mm
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I plan to do very simple body armour using GW liquid greenstuff on the torsos to smooth out jacket folds, then maybe adding shoulder pauldrons for forward or assault units. 15mm hides a multitude of sins ;) The Eureka guys I am saving for elite reserves.
Have you considered using Battlefront Germans with their updated MGs and Peter Pig headswaps? The pins make it super-easy. Adam also made a good point while I was typing.
Of course, not being comfortable painting Nazis, and barely more OK with Stalinist Communists, I have made the alt-history decision to pit the Dominion against the Directorate. I will mostly just be changing logos though, and trying to keep things as near-real as possible (except for the odd mutated ape...).
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Right. Now we come to the heavy-lifting. Responding to Wyrmalla's essay-length excellent contribution to the thread :D
I did check out the Beyond the Sprues thread you cited as inspiration. Just pretty much sat there with my pupils dilating for a good hour or so slowly clicking through and feeling my mind boggle. But my further attempts to track down more material of a similar nature [such as, for instance, some of the timelines this guy's building stuff for - or other people doing the whole "Alternative History AFV" thing] didn't exactly turn up too much gold. One of the reasons I'm excited to correspond with other people on the same buzz as I am - who've evidently ALREADY done some pretty stellar research/magpieing - is that it means I get to draw upon your reference-points as well, without necessarily having to spend hours duplicating your work in tracking down the resources in question.
So, in short, if you've got any other superlative inspiration-sources that you've stumbled across ... please don't hesitate to lay them upon me. I'll attempt to do the same.
As for how I found this site ... well, like I said - I think about a decade ago when I was still in high school, I was googling for inspiration material for pulp wargaming and Weird World War II, this site turned up, and I wound up checking it out every so often when I'd think about doing hobbying other than 40k. Hadn't done so for a few years or so, then I did one day ... went straight to the WWWII subforums, as is my wont, and your one showed up first, I spent awhile poking around some of the references ... and here we are.
Now, down to brass tacks.
I think you've got the right of it (from what I remember of your thread) in terms of the 'jumping off point' which enables a longer (and more high-tech) WWII to take place. Something has to happen to remove the Western Allies from the equation fairly early on, turning the conflict into effectively one of Soviet versus Nazi across the Eastern Steppes between the Vistula and the Urals. I haven't settled on precise details (and, tbh, am perhaps rather unlikely to - although having just had my article on Subhas Chandra Bose published the other day, I am starting to have some 'sparks of inspiration' for the 'peripherals' to the tabletop conflict ... ), but those can wait. [other approaches such as removing certain personalities, or having various operations play out differently ... are a bit fiddly, and would require quite a bit of research - although WOULD potentially allow for other factions if I get bored with the Nazi-Soviet matchup]
But you're right. The 'balance' between Soviet and German armoured forces is not strictly speaking one of "numbers" versus "quality". It is also one of "numbers of /actually often really decent/ tanks, subject to occasional doctrinal/co-ordination failures" versus "technically intricate specialist kit that's occasionally not fit for purpose, or breaks down at rather inopportune moments, bulked out with rush-job attempted modernizations" [and, if we're playing stereotypes, conscripts versus veterans and aces - although this is again not necessarily accurate]
And you're totally right about the Soviets being hugely ahead with tank development. It must have come as quite a shock to the Germans encountering Soviet heavy armour on the road to Moscow. [It also occurs to me that the "siege tank" model represents a surprisingly more successful analogous development to the "infantry tank" approach of the British. Possibly due to the PEOPLE'S TRIUMPHANT PROGRESSIVE CANNON plus tracks and sloped armour approach of Soviet tank design]
Now as applies a mid-late 40s game ... in many regards, I see the Soviet technical advantage as having dissipated somewhat - being compensated for with numbers and solid design. [and, alongside that, it's potentially plausible that the German technical *disadvantage* [in terms of mechanical failures due to over-engineering etc.] might also have reduced] However something else did occur to me when looking into the Assault Gun approach. The range of what would otherwise be artillery-pieces [ex. the 152mm] would seem to outstrip German tank-cannon while still maintaining a modicum of penetrative ability. Which is great ... up until anti-tank missiles become a thing [first-generation weapons of this nature appearing to have a comparable range, presumably with much-enhanced lethality at significant range].
Also glad to see the acknowledgement of "Export" Models :D I used to get rather annoyed with (often American) folk who'd take the approach of Iraqi T-72s and the like being an accurate indicator of the performance of Russian T-72s in a hypothetical Cold War scenario.
Now, I'm actually quite glad for your point about the non-viability or somewaht implausible realizability (extra-paper paperness?) of various more popular hypothetical tank designs. I was aware of things like the IX etc. being basically propaganda pieces; but I'd assumed that the E-series was something that was actually being seriously developed - if rather early on in its design-cycle to actually have had tangible fruit.
But "Glad"? Of course. It means that I can do more with teh store-available Battlefront pieces, rather than feeling a large obligation to order paper panzers online.
Although it does open back up 'the field' when it comes to posing the question of what German armoured vehicle development looks like for 1946 etc. At the moment, we've got Tiger IIs with technical improvements, and the aforementioned raketjagdpanzers.
Aaaaand in the very next paragraph, he answers my implicitly posed question :D My first thought was wondering how, exactly one up-guns a Panther, in order to keep it 'competitive' on the late-40s battlefield. The obvious answer, of course - is the one that the Germans htemselves hit up. Adding an 8.8, in the form of a Jagdpanther (Guderian rolls his eyes). However, as we've seen with the T-54 relative to the T-44, there may be some room for an enlarged turret in order to hold the larger gun. The potential isssue with this is the comparatively narrow width of the Panther hull, as well as wondering whether the weight of a larger turret (and potential up-armouring) might over-stress the already exerted mobility systems of the Panther chassis.
And on the point about keeping 'heavy tanks' in the mix. Not only is this potentially a rather fun area of development and gaming, but it accords with the way the Germans seemed to run their ORBAT and procurement. "Finesse" or "Niche" developments, rather than mass-producing equipment more toward the 'jack of all trades' end of the spectrum. (which doesn't work out too well historically - but hey, this ain't quite "historically") And, presumably, some German chap at a review-board somewhere in this alternative timeline thinking that incorporating the next generation of Heavy Tank is as cool as we do.
Very interesting idea with the Tiger III. I'll have to take some measurements and do some thinking (re- the track-swapping to show non-interleaved wheels). YOu've now got me looking at the development history (and kits) for the Leopard I to see if it (or parts of it) might be of use. The big issue with doing one's own (somewhat less than bespoke) German tank design is that there's a somewaht distinctive 'look' to War-era German engineering (both in terms of turrets and bodies) which you just don't seem to find in post-War efforts (possibly because these tended to be collaborative efforts with other NATO/European polities and firms). I mean, looking at the American Cold War designs, like the M-48 and M-60, I'd say there are some far more obvious design continuities with American tanks of the War [and ditto for Soviet efforts for reassons preiviously discussed] than with the Germans.
Also, it's funny you mention TV Tropes ... I've found so many weeks of my earlier years heading down that particular referential rabbit-hole; and, as it happens, one of my first points of call for research for this project was the page on "Stupid Jetpack Hitler" :P
I know that doesn't cover/respond to all the points you raised in your post (which were pretty much all useful, by the way - and definitely enjoyable reading). But it's a start. Good use of that soap-box. :D
I look forward to the page-headers next time :P
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[...]while the Germans potentially might be forced to rely more heavily on assault gun & tank destroyer fixed casemate types (so StuGs, Pj IV's & Jagdpanthers) due to their being quicker, easier, & cheaper to manufacture. The Panther would probably soldier on for another year or two, but it's likely that it'd be in the form of the Ausf F & later, with the Schmalturm (again, easier, quicker & cheaper as well as being fractionally superior ballistically - Peter Pig make a turret for 15mm) - & hopefully theyd've fixed the final drive issues. [...] but if you allow for the Germans to have found a way of producing the fuel they needed & reducing the effectiveness/scale of both the allied bombing campaign & the soviets numerical advantage you can start to hypothesise arms development.
APCs/IFV's would be a natural place to start [...] Obsolete tank types could provide a source of chassis.
[...] something that fits in the E-50 slot, doesn't have to be one, but would have to tick the boxes - gun of 88 - 105 mm, armour somewhere between the Panther & the Tiger II, simplified suspension (tell the driver to bring a cushion) an engine of 900-1200hp & weighing 45-60 tons (you could substitute new plastic BF's Leopard I's). [...]
As for models to represent stuff - well BF's stuff, especially now a lot of it's in plastic, certainly provides the raw material for conversions, but both Heer46 & Forged In Battle (part of WestWind) have some Weird War stuff which could be useful - hope that's of some use!
Churr! Definitely a useful series of meditations!
Your thinking on the Soviet front definitely accords with my own. The humble T-34 would retain some usefulness in Soviet doctrine for a variety of reasons even as the aforementioned heavy tank and assault gun formations would start to assume an increased battlefield salience. Taking a look at historic production figures for the T-34's posited replacements (like the low-thousands figure for the T-44), it does seem that screening duties for the bigger guns and thicker armour might still have been a T-34's job [the hydralisks in a zergling-rush respectively]. To say nothing of infantry support duties, providing organic AT and an el-cheapo battlefield transport which brings its own fire support (an IFV which um ... isn't actually an IFV in some ways). There would also be potential to use the chassis for a variety of other non-tank roles - mobile rocket launchers, for instance.
Good point on the impending obsolescence of the Panther. As you can see from my reply to Wyrmalla immediately further up the thread, I'd done a bit of consideration for how the Panther could be kept in the fight - and it's difficult to see how it could plausibly be up-gunned while still keeping a tank configuration rather than going down the Jagdpanzer route. I'm definitely down with the idea of a preponderance of tank destroyers in German forces, as it makes logical sense to try to counter Soviet numbers with additoinal mobile-cannon barrels of their own made from quickie-conversions from otherwise obsolete chassies. And, as I've said further up, the whole raketjagdpanzer idea is additionally useful as a development of hte concept. Fully agree about the IFV usage for old chassies and turrets as well - indeed, it was the design which did eactly thatfrom that chap from Beyond The Sprues (as found by Wyrmalla) which inspired me to start thinking about all this in the first place.
I think somebody mooted a similar sort of conversion for a T-34 based around shifting the engine block to the front (or jus straight-up reversing the hull), so there is some potential for a Russian APCprogramme as well.
Good comments on the potential design characteristics of a hypothetical 'replacement' medium tank. And I'd previously seen the Heer46 kits when browsing Agis' wonderful site as research, but they'd slipped my mind - so thanks very muchly for the reminder! As applies the Battlefront plastics - yup, one reason why I'm going with with them, because I figured alterations would be much easier than working with resin/metal when converting IFVs; although on the topic of the Leopard I, I've talked in a comment a few up about my sideways looking at using mid-Cold War German vehicles to represent late-40s German engineering due to aesthetic/technical differences, but it's certainly an avenue to explore.
I'm taking a look through the Forged in Battle catalogue now. I now see what you mean about the Schmalturm turret with an 8.8 as a way to modernize the Panther. I suppose the next question is wondering how to easily convert one from the materials at hand in-country rather than ordering in.
Thanks again for the suggestions. Has definitely helped clarify my thinking in some areas.
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Have you thought about using the new East germans? The East German helmet was, I believe, actually a ww2 German design that was never adopted during the war. The AK47s would probably pass for STG44s at 15mm
Funnily enough, I happened across that connection earlier this evening while stumbling through Wikipedia. My first question was wondering why it didn't go into production. (and I'm a little sketch about the aesthetic) But you're definitely right about the potential plausibility of using an early Soviet assault rifle as a stand-in for a subsequent German design.
I plan to do very simple body armour using GW liquid greenstuff on the torsos to smooth out jacket folds, then maybe adding shoulder pauldrons for forward or assault units. 15mm hides a multitude of sins ;) The Eureka guys I am saving for elite reserves.
Have you considered using Battlefront Germans with their updated MGs and Peter Pig headswaps? The pins make it super-easy. [...]
I'd be very interested to see how you get on trying that (the liquid greenstuff bodyarmour, I mean) - saves me the "am-I-going-to-screw-it-up" anxieties of prototyping such a conversion myself.
As applies headswaps ... I previously wasn't aware that Peter Pig had a separate head line. Amusingly (or not) the faces appear to be rather better than the actual Battlefront ones. Might be quite fiddly for my amateur skills in this scale, but would certainly open up a wealth of possibilities!
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Glad my ramble was of some use - as to whether the Leopard I fits visually, how about this?
(The plastics are cheap enough that the experimentation is worth a go.) The problem with attempting to up-gun the Panther is mainly weight - the tank (originally destined to be 35 tons or so) ended up topping out at 45 tons, all without the necessary re-design of the power train. This meant that the expected working life of the final drive (the gear system in the front transmission housing) was as little as 90 miles before expected failure (this was also true of the very first production Tiger II's & though they fixed it here, they never did in the Panther's entire production run). Despite this, the Panther was supposed to be a mass produced vehicle, entirely unlike the 'boutique' Tiger & Tiger II & demonstrated in the 6000+ production figures.
This is why a new tank makes sense, with a 'rationalised' design (& why it wasn't going to happen in the Reich's labyrinthine system of patronage & 'you scratch my back...' politics) was essential if they were going to compete.
The pic below is a putative collision of the Panther & Leopard ideas, while the running gear/suspension owes more to the Leopard, the hull shape is definately WWII (the site is paperpanzer.com, all 1/35 & 1/48, but excellent eye candy).
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I think you've got the right of it (from what I remember of your thread) in terms of the 'jumping off point' which enables a longer (and more high-tech) WWII to take place. Something has to happen to remove the Western Allies from the equation fairly early on, turning the conflict into effectively one of Soviet versus Nazi across the Eastern Steppes between the Vistula and the Urals. I haven't settled on precise details (and, tbh, am perhaps rather unlikely to - although having just had my article on Subhas Chandra Bose published the other day, I am starting to have some 'sparks of inspiration' for the 'peripherals' to the tabletop conflict ... ), but those can wait. [other approaches such as removing certain personalities, or having various operations play out differently ... are a bit fiddly, and would require quite a bit of research - although WOULD potentially allow for other factions if I get bored with the Nazi-Soviet matchup]
The rough draft for my alternate history has Edward Windsor never meeting Wallis Simpson and therefore being free to act as pro-German as he wanted to on the throne. As the king's petty fascism trickles downwards into the country, the heart of empire is seized with a certain parochial Little Englander-ness. When the Winter War kicks off, France and Britain agree to (as planned in Timeline-1) send troops to defend the Finns against the resurgent menace of Communism - defensively, not willing to pour lives and treasure into the Muscovite wastes. With this concrete assistance in the war on Communism, Hitler doesn't invade France, but concentrates on his Lebensraum, feeling no need to go west to defend his rear. I haven't decided what happens to Poland yet, but they could form an anti-Communist alliance as suggested by one counter-factual "historian", whose name escapes me.
With no great tension between the UK and Germany, Churchill doesn't get into power. Italy keeps trying to flex its muscle in the Mediterranean, and gets a bloody nose from France and Britain. Germany helps out their fellow fascists, and peace rapidly re-descends as the Brits and French carve up Italy's African possessions in exchange for giving them a free hand in the Balkans. With no sustained conflict, there is no Lend-Lease, and no real American involvement. There are no RAF or USAF air-raids on German industry. The war in the Pacific plays out entirely separately, and just as viciously. The League of Nations crumbles, the race wars of the Eastern Front and the actual East burn on (like in Timeline-1), but without two stark choices, most of the rest of the world stays well out of it. Like the Phony War and the Sino-Japanese War of Timeline-1, the Steppe War, Winter War and Pacific Wars are considered separately, never merging into World War Two.
And Hitler doesn't have a stroke. He chokes on some raw carrot and no-one bothers to unblock his airways.
I'd be very interested to see how you get on trying that (the liquid greenstuff bodyarmour, I mean) - saves me the "am-I-going-to-screw-it-up" anxieties of prototyping such a conversion myself.
As applies headswaps ... I previously wasn't aware that Peter Pig had a separate head line. Amusingly (or not) the faces appear to be rather better than the actual Battlefront ones. Might be quite fiddly for my amateur skills in this scale, but would certainly open up a wealth of possibilities!
I will report back when I've done it - it might be a while though, as I have a Star Wars demo game to finish putting together in the next fortnight. The heads worried me to begin with, but I can't emphasise how simple they are to use with just a scalpel and a hand powered modelling drill. I thoroughly recommend them, and own probably 100s by now.
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This is why a new tank makes sense, with a 'rationalised' design (& why it wasn't going to happen in the Reich's labyrinthine system of patronage & 'you scratch my back...' politics) was essential if they were going to compete.
The pic below is a putative collision of the Panther & Leopard ideas, while the running gear/suspension owes more to the Leopard, the hull shape is definately WWII (the site is paperpanzer.com, all 1/35 & 1/48, but excellent eye candy).
Excellent picture that it is. I did see somebody else's conversion which pretty much entailed putting a King Tiger turret on a Panther. This would certainly accomplish an easy up-gunning - but GOOD GRIEF such a thing would be overburdened weight-wise! [and, in fact, the chap who built it made oblique reference to that fact]
I will report back when I've done it - it might be a while though, as I have a Star Wars demo game to finish putting together in the next fortnight. The heads worried me to begin with, but I can't emphasise how simple they are to use with just a scalpel and a hand powered modelling drill. I thoroughly recommend them, and own probably 100s by now.
Interesting timeline tweaks. And I look forward to the report.
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Right, now lest anybody think that there's only 'paper' to this paper-panzer-inspired project ... I made the pilgrimage to the local gamesstore this evening in pursuit of some IS-3s [or, failing that, some T-54s] from the FoW Arab-Israeli conflict line, and some manner of German Big-Cats with which to oppose them.
I came back empty handed. Turns out they'd sold off most of their [other] Flames of War bits and pieces at a discount a few weeks prior in preparation for clearing shelf-space for Team Yankee. I can't say I fault their logic - everybody in the local area who's going to be buying WWII miniatures probably has almost enough to last a lifetime by now after the previous decade and a half ... while Cold War armour is a comparatively new and novel thing around here.
But yeah. Lil annoying. Guess I might have them place an order for me.
In the mean-time ... they DO now carry this "TANKS" line that everybody seems to be talking about. I had a brief look at the plastics. Not too bad. Although I still do like the reassuring bulk of resin and metal, these'll at least be easier to convert. [looking chiefly at the Panther/Jagdpanther kit - although I did note they had the IS-2 in stock, for Soviet opposition] Pity that it works out $25 more expensive buying five of those versus the actual plastic Panther troop. But oh well.
Having now had a look at hte sprues I'll be working with, two questions immediately sprang to mind. The rear engine assembly being a separate piece is quite handy for the IFV conversion talked about earlier; which leaves me wondering how to remodel both the real engine deck as a fighting compartment - and, as the corolllary to that, working out where the engine goes instead.
The most logical answers to that would be either forward, directly adjacent to the driver [also where one of the Marder iterations has its one), by eliminating hte bow hull machine gun; or somewhere 'amidships' - thus separating out the crew compartment to the front, and the fighting compartment to the rear.
Now, speaking of Marders ... it did seem a bit interesting, looking at the lines of the kit, how similar in some ways it seems to some of the hypothetical apc designs online afficionados have cranked out for the Germans.
The next step [of research - model-buying also needs to be happening] is colour-schemes. I've seen the same hypothetical late-45 colour scheme a few places, and I'm trying to track down any others.
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The 'Tanks' minis are in fact the BF plastics sold seperately (the game is also a fun little 'pick-up' sort of thing) & you're right, if you want a troop or platoon the bigger BF boxes are a much better way to go (as they also include decals & crew, which the 'Tanks' blisters don't).
Again, you're right that the engines on the 'paper' apc's/ifv's are front mounted, usually placed where the bowgunner/radio operator would have been, which'll involve cutting up the deck of your chosen steed (you're going to need some plasticard in a couple of thicknesses, 1mm & .5mm are a good starting point & usually pretty cheap & easy to find in your nearest art supply shop - Evergreen is a common brand). Wymalla's Griffon kitbash provides a good basis for any conversion ideas, air intakes (using those from the BF kit) on the right hull front, with the rear of the hull giving you a blank canvas for hatches etc.
I think the hypothetical ifv you're refering to was the 'Buffel', based on an E-50 chassis - completely fake but looks the part, they just stuck a Marder hull on the E-50 chassis & WWII-ified it (they also did the same for an imaginary E-100 version).
You can really have fun with the colour schemes, as wilder forms of camo abounded by the actual wars end, with both Rotbraun & Olivegrun/Resedegrun often replacing the more standard Dunklegelb as a base colour. Neil Burt's 'Troop Of Shrew' site, particularly the Flickr picture vault (flickr.com/photos/troop-of-shewe/sets/) has plenty of beautifully painted minis (28 & 15mm) including post '45 stuff.
I've also found the AK Interactive '1945 German Colors' Camouflage Profile Guide useful (Mig's 'Painting Wargames Tanks' is another useful title & focuses on 15mm - though only has a little post '45 stuff). The 'Heresy Brush' blog ( heresybrush.com Reuben Tarragosa's site) is also a useful source.
Hope that's of some use!
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Tsk, I seen the walls of text in thread, but have been avoiding it as a I tend to only jump on here during breaks at work.
For IFVs there’s a couple of options for conversions:
- Easiest, and probably the most common, reverse the hull so the engine’s at the front and the transport compartment is where the driver used to sit. I did the same thing with the T-34 APC I made in my own thread.
- Turn the engine sideways, and either keep it at the back and have an entrance tunnel beside it, or mount it at the front and have the drive on the other side. This involves more work, and makes the area beside the engine quite cramped, though its a method used around that period (Katzchen, M10, Achzarit)
- Leave the engine where it is and increase the size of the crew compartment to accommodate the men. An ad-hoc method which typically prevents a door being fitted (the men existing via roof hatches). This’d also result in a higher profile. I’m not sure if any “modern” APCs have used this method at all.
At 15mm scale I’d just take an existing tank and add a new top deck and a rear door. Bothering with being concerned about the internal layout and where the vents should be shouldn’t matter too much as the models are fairly small.
Post war developments typically used American hulls, though we did see one Swedish APC based on the 38 (t), besides also some interim German ones before the Marder took over which sort of had a WWII style. Tanks Encyclopedia has articles.
As Ballardian said though, AFVs based on the E-Series may be the most feasible. The Germans would have converted over any older vehicles to specialist stuff, or scrapped them, which does have the potential for AFVs (similar to the Israelis turning T-54s into Achzarit). Both the 38 (t) and Panther were considered for the Katzchen project for one, as have I considered turning a Tiger II into the basis for a power armoured unit’s AFV (…till I used that model for a Jagdtiger II). Frankly anything could work if you use the justification that they’re field prototypes, or only saw limited run (perhaps being a project that was sub-contracted to a smaller firm to bolster overall AFV production?).
As for ATGMs. They're expensive... For the period maybe having a big gun to back them up for when they careen off into a barn would be a good idea. ...Practically though I'd imagine that the Germans would have done what they did post war and convert their Jagdpanzers over so they got rid of their guns and carried an ATGM system. If I can be bothered I'll probably do the same thing eventually (Bolt Action does have some rules which could be converted over easily enough).
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Small update from me: TANKS Battlefront Panther kit picked up for evaluation purposes; and everything else for initial phase placed on order through FLGS. In specia, 3x Konigtigers, 5x Panthers, 6x SdKfz 234s, and an 'assault rifle platoon' [2 squads with StG44s, 1 squad with rifles and MG42s, plus platoon command and panzerfausts].
Objective with this purchase (when it actually turns up) is pretty straightforward - three heavy tanks, and up to six transports [whether the "Griffon" IFV that's turned up both here and on BeyondTheSprues, by using the 234/1 or 234/2 turrets; or a lighter and unturreted APC version in the mode of the Kangaroo - a "Katzschen II", perhaps?].
Next issue is to work out plausible transport capacities, and organize squads on that basis.
And, once they're in-hand, the greenstuff adding for bodyarmour on the Panzergrenadiers.
That is also when the interesting doctrinal questions start to percolate. I have heard it said that Heer modus operandi for much of the War was effectively to have riflemen act as support for the squad's machine guns. Which makes a certain amount of sense when high-volume fire at range is more effectively derived from the latter than the former.
But the calculation changes somewhat when i) the squad's standard weapon is an assault rifle (with an effective maximum range of half a kilometer, and an increased rate of fire) rather than a more 'archaic' long-arm; ii) in addition to squad support weapons (not that they are necessarily conceived of in that role), there is also far heavier vehicle-mounted autocannon almost constantly present with squad.
I'm also thinking about what to do with the more conventionally equipped rifle-squad. It would be possible to simplyy state that as in history, StG44 production was not sufficient to unilaterally roll it out, with instead only a certain number of squads per company being llucky enough to benefit from the upgrade. Alternative is perhaps more interesting - reconstruing platoon as having two 'maneuver'/assault elements, with an anchoring fire support element that is itself somewhat more mobile (and numerous) than a mere MG team.
Next steps once this lot're underway will be considering other elements for expansion: there are clear gaps in long-range AT assets [KonigTigers notwithstanding], and artillery. Previously discussed Raketjagdpanzer approach may do for the former [and/or ATGM teams of infantry]; while the latter has a number of potential options - including the construction of FO vehicle for spotter team.
Again, you're right that the engines on the 'paper' apc's/ifv's are front mounted, usually placed where the bowgunner/radio operator would have been, which'll involve cutting up the deck of your chosen steed (you're going to need some plasticard in a couple of thicknesses, 1mm & .5mm are a good starting point & usually pretty cheap & easy to find in your nearest art supply shop - Evergreen is a common brand). Wymalla's Griffon kitbash provides a good basis for any conversion ideas, air intakes (using those from the BF kit) on the right hull front, with the rear of the hull giving you a blank canvas for hatches etc.
I think the hypothetical ifv you're refering to was the 'Buffel', based on an E-50 chassis - completely fake but looks the part, they just stuck a Marder hull on the E-50 chassis & WWII-ified it (they also did the same for an imaginary E-100 version).
You can really have fun with the colour schemes, as wilder forms of camo abounded by the actual wars end, with both Rotbraun & Olivegrun/Resedegrun often replacing the more standard Dunklegelb as a base colour. Neil Burt's 'Troop Of Shrew' site, particularly the Flickr picture vault (flickr.com/photos/troop-of-shewe/sets/) has plenty of beautifully painted minis (28 & 15mm) including post '45 stuff.
I've also found the AK Interactive '1945 German Colors' Camouflage Profile Guide useful (Mig's 'Painting Wargames Tanks' is another useful title & focuses on 15mm - though only has a little post '45 stuff). The 'Heresy Brush' blog ( heresybrush.com Reuben Tarragosa's site) is also a useful source.
Hope that's of some use!
Thanks for stirling advice, particularly on paint :D Shrewe was actually one of my first ports of call for research, and it's there that I noted this hypothetical late/post-war camo pattern that I enquired about, and which you've reproduced in the attached image.
Interesting points about the Buffel - may wind up investigating whether a FoW Marder kit (inexplicably identified as the "Marder 2") can be mated up with a WWII era track unit from Battlefront's range [E-50s therefore being somewhat out of the question for the moment] - although given the Panther's probably a bit longer, and the Panzer IV's rather shorter, I'm not sure how that'll work out in practice.
For IFVs there’s a couple of options for conversions:
- Easiest, and probably the most common, reverse the hull so the engine’s at the front and the transport compartment is where the driver used to sit. I did the same thing with the T-34 APC I made in my own thread.
- Turn the engine sideways, and either keep it at the back and have an entrance tunnel beside it, or mount it at the front and have the drive on the other side. This involves more work, and makes the area beside the engine quite cramped, though its a method used around that period (Katzchen, M10, Achzarit)
- Leave the engine where it is and increase the size of the crew compartment to accommodate the men. An ad-hoc method which typically prevents a door being fitted (the men existing via roof hatches). This’d also result in a higher profile. I’m not sure if any “modern” APCs have used this method at all.
At 15mm scale I’d just take an existing tank and add a new top deck and a rear door. Bothering with being concerned about the internal layout and where the vents should be shouldn’t matter too much as the models are fairly small.
Thanks, as per usual, for excellent input :) My preference is for the second option suggested, and looking at the test-sprue I've aqcuired, this doesn't appear too hard to achieve [my only question, from those more mechanically gifted than I, is whether this is realistically feasible, turning an engine on its side sort of thing - this may be a dumb quetion on my part].
Although an additional idea I idly played with was to simply have hte engine moved forward to the front, and the driver operate via vision blocks rather than direct line of sight. [so differing from your T-34 APC idea by not raising hte profile of the resultant vehicle to compensate]
And then, out of hte blue, my eye happened to cast itself upon somebody's vision for a Geshutzwagen Tiger II [a historical vehicle which, while prototyped, never actually made it beyond a single unit] - at which point I noticed that in order to make room for the rather massive artillery at the rear of the vehicle, the engine block had been moved up 'amidships', drastically reducing the space for both driver and bow machine-gun operator, and leaving them exiting via roof-hatches by bisecting the vehicle.
(https://scontent.fakl1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16729545_892444077562881_2393721351653013242_n.jpg?oh=64ae158221014564fefb391b182b7d43&oe=5935A034)
Not something I'll probably pursue for these Panther-derived IFVs, of course - but an interesting (quasi)historical footnote on German AFV design which may prove relevant for the future. Particularly as my further researches into the subject appear to indicate that one of the more notable issues of the Panther was the fact it was excessively 'nose-heavy' - something which adding a honking great engine to the forward compartment is hardly going to counteract :P And of potentially great relevance on the unsteady ground of hte Eastern Front.
Anyway, I look forward to this stuff turning up so I can finally get cracking.
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Good to hear that the project is progressing & glad to have been of some help - don't forget, lots of progress pics or it didn't happen :)
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That is also when the interesting doctrinal questions start to percolate. I have heard it said that Heer modus operandi for much of the War was effectively to have riflemen act as support for the squad's machine guns. Which makes a certain amount of sense when high-volume fire at range is more effectively derived from the latter than the former.
But the calculation changes somewhat when i) the squad's standard weapon is an assault rifle (with an effective maximum range of half a kilometer, and an increased rate of fire) rather than a more 'archaic' long-arm; ii) in addition to squad support weapons (not that they are necessarily conceived of in that role), there is also far heavier vehicle-mounted autocannon almost constantly present with squad.
I'm also thinking about what to do with the more conventionally equipped rifle-squad. It would be possible to simplyy state that as in history, StG44 production was not sufficient to unilaterally roll it out, with instead only a certain number of squads per company being llucky enough to benefit from the upgrade. Alternative is perhaps more interesting - reconstruing platoon as having two 'maneuver'/assault elements, with an anchoring fire support element that is itself somewhat more mobile (and numerous) than a mere MG team.
The Finns did something similar with LMG/SMG sections, if I recall correctly - it might be worth a look. Cross-pollination of "jaeger" concepts between two Germanic militaries sounds plausible enough to me.
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So just to prove I'm still keeping things ticking over ... these turned up at the FLGS for me not so long ago [just went in and picked them up today]. I'm still waiting on the Bengal Tigers I ordered, but with what's here, there ought to be enough to construct 5 IFVs, several recon/support vehicles, and three squads of sturmgewehr 44 armed infantry [who may wind up with various forms of body-armour].
Not a bad start :D
Now I just have to go back through all my notes and what not and work out how to construct and convert 'em.
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I look forward to pics of your progress, good luck with the project.
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The so-called 'monkey model'is a myth and one that can largely be ascribed to the ramblings of one 'Viktor Suvorov'. Soviet export models were usually simplified to the extent that their clients could afford, manufacture or maintain them not as some sort of grand deception plan. That is when they were simplified at all.
T-44 is as likely a contender as the T-54 and provides a more distinctive look, albeit it's a tank lacking off the shelf kits in most scales. Kitbash with a T-54 hull and a T-34 turret for an approximation.
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Thanks for the advice :D Wasn't aware of the T-44 and having looked into it a bit, I guess it makes sense that they'd be employed in this timeframe; although I do also note the historical circumstance of the first iteration not being given a serious look-in due ot the T-34/85 being a thing by that point. Which would mean in order to offer a meaningful advantage over simply having more T-34/85s, up-gunning to the 100mm would be called for - as, of course, a subsequent round of T-44 prototypes appears to have done.
You'd think, given their seeming obsession with putting out kits for all manner of rather less-used stuff that Battlefront [my prime source of miniatures at this point] would have done one ... but nope, despite having done a T-43 for some reason [which i'm not even sure actually ever saw combat or left the prototype stages] ... no T-44s.
Will keep in mind the T-54 hull with T-34-ish turret [larger gun perhaps permitting].
Although additionally to my annoyance, I see Battlefront's now taken off their website the 'Fate of a Nation' Arab armour that I'd been banking on using for much of my 'less-traditional-history-complient' Soviet Armour [i.e. the IS-3s I think I recall them having, and the actual T-54s].
Still, the Team Yankee range still appeasr to have T-55s .. so that's uh .. something I guess, with appropriate research for how to dial them back about twenty years or whathaveyou :P
And I suppose there's always just the option in the interim of doing boatloads of 'conventional' Soviet armour - massed ranks of T-34s, and otherwise still perfectly viable IS-2s [I mean it's not like that lovely 122mm gun goes out of style, as seen on its successor model :P ]; accompanied by siege-guns.
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And in any case, there's Germans to be done first!
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-M09mIA0uGQo/WdYH7a1_cqI/AAAAAAAAEfk/4Pdvkg8mGBQDsTIssgO_GRuk1fPRlATzACLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_3783.JPG)
Starting with this lovely piece of German/Kiwi/Malaysian engineering. I must say, with 40k's transfer over to all-plastic slash rather annoying "resin" ... I'd fully forgotten just how 'reassuring' it feels to hold a properly weighted metal [and denser resin] miniature. Feels ,, hefty!
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kIgWgG3bxfg/WdYH7QYhthI/AAAAAAAAEfo/4pIuZHPXud4-4qEtXy7cBXtmuXrFm7VAACLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_3784.JPG)
Now, I'm pretty sure that the metal 88mm guns supplied with the kit were, in fact, intended for the Porsche turret version Battlefront also does, rather than the Henschel turrets the three I've picked up were supplied with. But with a bit of cutting down, they fit in and look decent.
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-e3EkkDF-VYs/WdYH7afln9I/AAAAAAAAEfg/vueh6VuthXIdYBWjalTlYpDVdDvR0BZ8gCLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_3785.JPG)
I guess we've now moved from the Panzers not even being 'paper' ones into the realm of actual production for a start :D So that's someting. Only took me ... nine months! [in my defence, I've had an election to fight irl and something like four or five ongoing 40k logs taking up most of my hobbying efforts over that time]
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Xz9_AQZGHC8/WdYH84VW4JI/AAAAAAAAEfs/NShVG4oUIoUIgbByC_2jYnJoJnYf1XgtACLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_3786.JPG)
I did consider the addition of an anti-tank missile [the Tiger Is in Gear Krieg's African Theater expansion have something like this, which is rather nifty - the 'justification' [other htan rule of cool] being that only something that size and with that amount of turret space or something would be able to house the requisite guidance equipment for same.]; however, the Tiger II's already quite a formidable combatant on its own, and i'm not sure quite what it would gain from having a missile system mounted which might distract/detract from firing its 88.
Now the *next* question of scourse ... is how to paint it.
I started researching German camouflage schemes employed later in the war to see if that was a decent baseline for what they might have in service in the mid-late 1940s in this timeline ... but as far as I can determine, rather than their rather distinctive looking schemes being the result of some German scientific-minded optimal disruption optics or something - in many cases, their successive efforts appear to have been motivated more by running out of first several kinds of paint, and then the pigments to appropriately colour even the paints they had left!
And in any case, the various 'ambush' schemes being mostly designed for circumstances more prevalent on the Western Front and hiding vehicles from air-detection beneath the leafy boughs of trees .. well, none of that's as relevant for the War in the East, particularly if a more 'mobile' and initiative-taking approach than the historic long-retreat and static defence lines is envisaged.
Might be interesting to try out the grey-and-ochre that this chap's gone for on his rather spiffing E-100; although perhaps in a more 'linear' fashion as you see on some Autumn camouflage from time to time.:
(http://www.modelbrush.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/E100-finish-01.jpg)
Open to suggestions on all fronts; and if anyone knows what's happened to those aforementioned '50s [slash late 40s] Soviet vehicles Battlefront had for their Arab-Israeli wars range and whether they'll be coming back when they re-release that era in the next year or so, that'd be further welcome insight.
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I'd probably still recommend the AK Interactive book '1945 German Colours Camoflage Profile Guide', which covers a wide range of both Western & Eastern Front schemes. It's fairly cheap & I've certainly found it useful.
The changing base colours (olive/resedagrun or chocolate/red-brown or just primer substituted for DG) certainly did have a basis in pigment availability rather than, as you say, any 'scientific ' approach, though complex patterns in two or three colours still cropped up on both fronts - but that's the joy of the Alt history approach, it's very flexible!
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Canfora Publishing's 'AFV PHOTO ALBUM 3 - Panther tanks and variants on Czechoslovakian territory' also has some interesting late war patterns, on actual vehicles in the field (as well as some colour plates).
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Excellent resource recommendations and advice, Ballardian! Due to the four months or so i left this thread fallow i'd overlooked some of the superlative suggestions you'd made upthread. My bad. Have since taken a look at yon online materials and managed to bring up some of the contents of the AK-Interactive on le google image search.
Now, while paint hasn't yet been applied to miniatures [i'm doing a test to see if battlefront's colours go over/play nice with GW's first before i ruin anything...]
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-7kqL1gOar7s/WecuMgKbysI/AAAAAAAAEkY/E6Ol7mXRrwsk2qYupr4HVEwGzYHENASpQCLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_3931.JPG)
The other two King Tigers are now in an assembled state.
Although perhaps of greater interest ...
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-A3ESQD6mXJE/WecuMRjBteI/AAAAAAAAEkU/PZY8tyVV8P07SoUJGAgEvUFUI0aBqgCUQCLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_3907.JPG)
I happened to be down a local model shop, and noted this beauty. Admittedly it's in 1/144 scale rather htan 1/100 - but I guess we can rationalize it as a prototype being built in a *slightly* more sensible proportion ; or the hwole thing being downsized in the name of feasibility. The 1/144 Mauses [as in, two of them] that come with it are a bit of a larger [ahem] problem, but i'm sure we can come up with something.
Now as for why a Ratte might be turning up in what was *supposed* to be a 'more realistic' World War Two alternate thistory project ... well ... without the serious resource pressures of fighting a two-front war, and other such things, perhaps the Ratte winds up going ahead instead of being cancelled by Speer.
We'll uh .. we'll see.
One interesting potential idea an associate came up with was something along the lines of a mobile missile launcher platform [the V-series perhaps not being named for Vengeance in this timeline due to the non-involvement of the British as aggressors past a certain point] - with a goal of bombarding Soviet industry on the other side of the Urals perhaps.
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Vengeance is a translation of Vergeltungs(waffe).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-1_flying_bomb (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-1_flying_bomb)
Though Google translates it as retribution.
So the Ratte does not come with a flying saucer, how disappointing.
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Proof that I am actually painting things ...
First pass at a Konigstiger. [apologies for poor lighting]
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-d3A9GGKRtyI/WfFJJS6nQpI/AAAAAAAAEl4/rqDu3tzwB9Mnyaat1T6t_x3lkpRfS-g5gCLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_3951.JPG)
Obviously, there's a few rough edges here and there to clean up, but for the most part it's ready for the application of a camouflage scheme over the top of the dunkelgelb.
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ZuM4mKDnkM8/WfFJJV2BMvI/AAAAAAAAEmA/tkK1jds0joY5h-irWqGGi98uBu1YhyzBQCLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_3952.JPG)
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-YusaT9ewG8M/WfFJJUfNrbI/AAAAAAAAEl8/etB0z9PsOyw6ELh4Pykh1utL62N1rcLmgCLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_3953.JPG)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-c0hVfDhbaWA/WfFJLFbC4SI/AAAAAAAAEmE/z2kEswpWieIlS6jlynKnCInu1rQxLTNZACLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_3954.JPG)
The Dunkelgelb in question is GW's 'Zandri Dust' - have the proper Battlefront paints etc, but haven't used them at all on these thus far after some rather questionable results [probably due ot me not being used to them] attempting to do a 1:100 scale BTR-80 as a 'tester'.
Once these're finished, it'll be on to some of the more 'weird' stuff - the a-historical IFVs, armoured Panzergrenadiers [yes, a tautology of sorts there], and that Ratte :D
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due to the ever-present hobby ADHDery, may also , the next time i'm down the local scale-model-shoppe pick up some of the rather cheap and easily assembleable 1/100 Zvezda armour kits they've got on hand there. Not to be put together 'stock', of course, but with a view to test-bedding some repurposed uses for these designs [wehther perhaps a conversion of a Tiger chassis into a 'heavy' APC; or possibly some form of rocket or missile artillery platform] - at ten dollars a pop or thereabouts, they're rather lower in price than the equivalent Battlefront plastics. And if i'm in the mood to start workign on the Soviet OPFOR, that'll be handy as well.
Also entertaining hte idea of some kitbashery/conversion for later/hypothetical German armour based around 1/72 and/or 1/76 scale vehicles. The issue with that will be doing the appropriate research, browsing through ranges etc. to see what looks plausible/credible as a basis for what, and with what alterations.
Did take a brief look around for 'stock' paper-panzers in 15mm ; although with Heer46's online shop still showing sold outs for their E-series , I think that basically leaves Forged In Battle [although I seem to remember Khurasan mooting some offerings in this area previously - pity their site's *also* on hiatus].
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Yes, it's pity to have to wait for Heer 46's restock. Khurasan's alt WWII range is still very small, but there is a good E-25 & I believe they have a T-44 coming (but as you mentioned, their site is one currently down for maintenance - though you could try dropping him a line). Peter Pig produce a decent Schmalturm that should fit most Panthers & you could always convert it to the 88 bearing version (even if it'd never actually have fitted). FiB stuff is generally pretty good & it does have a few '46 type vehicles.
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I like the idea of the tinsel on the sides, it gives it a Christmassy look.
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I like the idea of the tinsel on the sides, it gives it a Christmassy look.
Delivering 88mm shells, of course. They'll look a bit different once they're inked up, one hopes :P (which'll also bring out the zimmerit more) Although I'm actually surprised how bright the Leadbelcher came out - it's usually much darker (as can be seen with the extra tracks on the turret, for instance.
And now we attempt to find a decent GW-range equivalent for the appropriate rotbraune
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And now we attempt to find a decent GW-range equivalent for the appropriate rotbraune
- here are a couple of links to GW - other paint brand lists.
dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Paint_Range_Compatibility_Chart (http://dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Paint_Range_Compatibility_Chart)
spikeybits.com/2016/09/vallejo-to-gw-paint-conversion-chart-pdf.html (http://spikeybits.com/2016/09/vallejo-to-gw-paint-conversion-chart-pdf.html)
You should be able to pin down what you're looking for with these.
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ah yup; legit. Thanks for the guides!
Took a look through but couldn't see much direct for equivalencies, but via a bit of additional triangulation ... Doombull Brown looks ok for red-brown; Castellan Green for Olivegrun; and that'll make for three-tonne camo in combination with the uh .. Zandrigelb.
I do, however, see yon Dakka-guide's got Stormvermin Fur down for German Grey - and an exact match for Dunkelgrau at that, according to [ http://stugiii.com/germanvehiclecamouflage.html ] ... [which is peculiar as it's listed on GW's website as a brown] ; ;although rather peculiarly, also lists Karak Stone as a match for what i've been using for Dunkelgelb :P
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This might be of help (Lead Legion colour scheme).
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-C91G7C7yLp8/WV-3pCmlRFI/AAAAAAAACfw/fwKy8r2hLvMXjerp9eeB8yXj4t9ogj4ggCLcBGAs/s1600/colours-noflash-whitebalance.png)
The Citadel colours are (vertically, left to right):
Castellan Green; Zandri Dust; Death Guard (Snot Womble) Green.
Rakarth Flesh; Bleached Bone (discontinued); Ceramite White; Pallid Wych Flesh; Rotting Flesh (discontinued); Castellan Green.
Bleached Bone (discontinued); Rakarth Flesh; Pallid Wych Flesh; Kislev Flesh; Rotting Flesh (discontinued).
Same colours, different lighting here:
http://ultravanillasmurf.blogspot.co.uk/2017/07/lead-legion-colours.html (http://ultravanillasmurf.blogspot.co.uk/2017/07/lead-legion-colours.html)
This Perry Kubelwagen is in Zandri dust.
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-J5QbNEt6bpM/WUv830Ue68I/AAAAAAAACZw/EUWr1WxkiBoZcnUvKp8pKASr-8AchrMAQCEwYBhgL/s1600/kubelwagenp1-3.png)
Rubicon (WIP) Panther in PSC DunkelGelb spray with Citadel Mournfang Brown and Humbrol Light Tan stripes.
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-dlGXvO1zURE/WKCJesvdjCI/AAAAAAAAB4A/NPrmqbfB2IIPQwViAMELHwo2Auk4nCYlACLcB/s1600/panther-g-8.png)
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Will follow this thread with interest.
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Oh wow! Excellent resource, those colour-profiles you've worked up Ultravanillasmurf! It's one of the most infuriating things about attempting to pick out colours online before buying 'em [in-shop] - the way the 'genuine article' isn't easily predictable by the monotone and not-with-acutal-light-on-it preview we see en pixel!
What you've got there also confirms that Castellan Green looks to be the juice for my olivegrun. Have got some Mournfang handy - and it's what i've been using for the 'wooden' bits on these King Tigers; although for the actual 'brown' parts of a three-tone, i'm not sure it'll be either red or dark enough. But bridges and crossing when come to raher than presuming the paras can hold it or something to taht effect :P
Will also make it a lot easier to attempt to sort out which flavoure of olive-ish drabbishness to use for the Soviet opposition when we get to that ... as I've seen from people painting up their Team Yankee Soviets of late, it's about on par with the various debates about what the proper Dunkelgelb is for diversity :P
Aaanyway ... it's about 04:00 where I am, and all the various model & wargaming stores are, predictably, closed. [I'm not sure how well a 24-hour miniature/rgp bricks-and-mortar vendor would do .. but that's perhasp an idea for another time].
But that's the thing about late at night! It's when the Tigers come out! Or, at least, I don't sleep easily, and had an urge to play around with my toy tanks...
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-nI28P3Bs_Vs/WfSdSEc8_TI/AAAAAAAAEmc/-Vevby_RA1k8BM4OPZ1yd__7swmc1Zl4ACLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_3955.JPG)
Have experimented with two 'innovations' - the first, a grey-and-gelb bitonal scheme inspired by the E-100 I posted on the previous page of the thread. Obviously, it's not finished, hard-edged properly yet because i just wanted to see how it would look. I have to say, it's not bad even at this unfinished stage! Not *entirely* sure how effective it is at visual disruption, but it's a start... Looks a little more 'finished' anyway than the straight-up Dunkelgelb that's in the center [ the first one I did from earlier in the thread].
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-beA_qImFIaI/WfSdR1TBGCI/AAAAAAAAEmY/k-nplc73I_QnDR_jX4AHiXVtBSc1F2W-wCLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_3956.JPG)
Meanwhile, *also* decided to see how the zimmerit etc. would look if i'd just gone straight-grey in an imitation of the early-war panzers, with the turret on the Konigstiger that uh .. broke down just from looking at it. I have to say - it looks really nice!
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-dE4ByzVFQ_I/WfSdRwbk_EI/AAAAAAAAEmU/LOqlzrTnLmYH7OuI87KtaeENhfkP2i0qACLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_3957.JPG)
I might go for some historical-breaking bits and pieces later on and do some Panzers up in the straight grey scheme for exactly that reason.
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-KSufO4rHkSY/WfSdTwHVV9I/AAAAAAAAEmg/WzVSYhnBuO00I4m1zlAHgo9M4dFBx0szACLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_3958.JPG)
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-wVFLaczme48/WfSdUbwvW0I/AAAAAAAAEmk/P059Ep6IaKc2sulFqewG9R3WMQP8o8-pwCLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_3959.JPG)
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MraWAKPSZD0/WfSdUZM16iI/AAAAAAAAEmo/0hH2OQLMGMoFg3rPWBUYsX0NnIHWGT__wCLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_3960.JPG)
Like I said - absolutely nothing's finished. I just wanted to have a bit of a play around ot see what looked good as a general template.
Meanwhile, a Tech-Priest [in the teclis blue] looks on, possibly shaking his head at my lack of obeisance to the proper manuals of German Armour pigmentation :P
Thoughts etc. welcome!
And at this stage, i think I might do something a bit closer to the traditional 'tritonal' once i) i've got the paints to do it; ii) on the next round of German armour, whether Panzers or IFVs. The logic with this, particularly if it's the rocket tank destroyers, is that hanging further back in cover and launching top-TOW attacks or whatever, is something far more in keeping with what ambush-camo was designed for in the first place.
Oh, that's a sudden thought .. I might wind up having to research WWII Soviet tank camo at this rate ...
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Oh, and ONE MORE THING ... Had a conversation with an associate bout potential timeline bits and pieces; and while i'm not in a position slash toooooo fussed bout getting into the nitty-gritty of such things, he did reiterate the concept we've taken to calling "Commonwealth Secundus" [let's see who gets the reference :P ].
Now, i'll probably wind up fleshing all this out at a later date and in a future post; but suffice to say, it creates scope for the British to still *sort-of* be involved, via the Antipodean Colonies, India [although that'll be subject to Bose's Free Indian Legion no doubt] and the like - who will all presumably be putting effort into maintaining lines of communication with each other, and also attempting to hold the line against the Axis. [And, alongside this, the British colonies in Africa including South Africa]
Which brings us to the Middle East. As noted, Iran would likel ystill be under joint Anglo-Soviet occupation - and would be being used to funnel forces to the Middle Eastern territories still possilby held by the Commonwealth such as Syria and Iraq [which iirc had a local uprising called hte Golden Square or something similar] ... but also to Egypt, with its Suez Canal.
Now, what THAT leads to .. is the possibility for a 'Desert War' between the Germans et co against the Commonwealth for both the Suez Canal - as well as the potential of striking up into the oil-fields of Iran etc. that're presumably playing quite an important role in keeping the Empire's [well, what remains of her, anyway] war-machine running. It'd be interesting [although probably militarily seriously difficult] to attempt to push trhough Iraq/Iran into the USSR *behind* the Urals, but hey.
Aaaanyway ... in terms of British force development - this would mean the same sort of stuff we're doing ofr the Germans and Soviets; namely, historically available vehicles like the Comets and Cromwells ... but ALSO, quite possibly Centurions and such-like :D [There'd also be scope for APC-conversions of Churchills in the Kangaroo manner]; oh, and the usual British light-tanks and armoured cars [I note Battlefront does a Boarhound in their "Mid-War Monsters" range that'll be quite cool for exactly this].
I'm not too o-fay with British tank development and strategy so will require some guidance onthis; but the vibe i'm getting here is that the Brits may attempt to do things similar to how the Chadians took on the Libyans during the 'Toyota War' - rapier application of swift force to get in to side and behind armour, take advantage of slow turret traverses etc. .. for which hte aforementioned armoured cars and swift tanks will no doubt come in handy.
Oh and, of course, LDRG raids and suchlike.
In terms of anti-tank weaponry, ther's obviouslyl the PIATs and recoilless rifles [perhaps jeep-mounted, as the Israelis did] ... but there's ALSO an Australian/UK developed ATGM dating from the early-50s that it might not be entirely inconceivable for the Commonwealth to have started getting to grips with [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malkara_(missile) ] .
Not to mention .. Marines and more Marines and Paras and what not.
THere may be additional scope for fixed defensive lines guarding the Canal.
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I did some post war Warlord US.
http://ultravanillasmurf.blogspot.co.uk/2017/04/post-war-bolt-action-miniatures.html (http://ultravanillasmurf.blogspot.co.uk/2017/04/post-war-bolt-action-miniatures.html)
I used Citadel Deathworld Forest for uniforms.
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Good to see your project progressing :)
Your choices for British afv's are fortunately fairly easy - after all we have the designs developed from '42 onwards entering service & staying there (with the last Centurion, an AVRE vehicle, leaving service after the first Gulf War).
I suppose, for alt purposes we'd see the usual suspects; Cromwells gradually being relegated to recon duties (as they were in Korea), with their speed making them a still useful armoured car alternative.
Comets might have seen greater service in a protracted war, taking over as the main British-produced medium (though I imagine there'd still be a good number of M4's - the US still being the main armour producer for the western allies). The Charioteer might be a possibility, jamming a 20pdr onto now-obsolete Cromwell hulls might have been forced into existance earlier than its actual 1952 birth by necessity, giving you a successor to the Challenger - sadly I don't think a model is available, but its simple slab-sided turret wouldn't be too challenging to scratch-build.
Then there's the Centurion, arguably the first time British Tank designers hit it out of the park. Armed with a 17pdr, till '48 saw it replaced with the QF 20pdr - again this might be accelerated by the protraction of the conflict. I believe a couple of companies have plastic ones planned (though I think they're L7 105mm MkV's or later), but at the moment the BF resin -pewter IDF ones might be the only ones out there (nope, just realised butlersprintedmodels.co.uk/15mm/post-ww2/british.html (http://butlersprintedmodels.co.uk/15mm/post-ww2/british.html) do both MkI & MKIII models).
The British heavy tank programme did throw up a few potential oddities, the FV200/300... series proposed three tanks of increasing weight classes, up to one-hundred tons (they binned the idea, possibly after taking a look at the E-100 hull they got from Paderborn & realising hundred ton tanks were a stupid idea). Other than the Centurion (which they decided, correctly, could cover most of their requiements) this process produced the FV214 Conqueror (1955), which filled the 'heavy' role - how much earlier it could have appeared is debatable, the design process began in 1944 & it usually took about two years to get to a functional prototype ready to transition to production (though obviously rather longer in this case). The Conqueror (or FV221 Caernarvon for its initial type - yes, the earlier vehicle has the later number) seems like it might have been a decent vehicle (side armour might have been a little weak) in some ways a little like a Churchill - excellent cross country performance & hill climbing, heavy frontal armour, (180-250mm) but slow & thirsty. Its L1 120mm gun (the initial Caernarvon version having the 20pdr - which became irrelevant after it was fitted to the Centurion) capable of putting a hole in anything around at the time. Again, unfortunately, I don't think a model in 15mm exists.
As to armoured cars, Britain had quite a few models that continued in service long after the actual war ended, so Daimler, Humber & AEC vehicles are all fair game.
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Went out for a bit of a walk this afternoon...
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-kNjqU__lGQM/Wf2NWiyQnRI/AAAAAAAAEpQ/QLcAbg1TuMs-LxhW-jms2GQvOrwReEakACLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_4085.JPG)
This is the WWII-relevant part of the haul: a Panther, Jagdtiger, Opel Blitz [coz the logistics trail i'm building up is uh..], and Tiger; plus an SU-100 and SU-152 [i suspect the kit may also make some other form of assault gun] to start building up the Soviet Opposition.
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-M37j1-h1OEo/Wf2NW9N24CI/AAAAAAAAEpY/hPkqCPLJ1owy65JpOXabSEz_e_GBjylTACLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_4087.JPG)
Oh and in the mean-time ...
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-5Uawf19I29k/Wf2NYVVpGTI/AAAAAAAAEpc/4i5lIv5-sf0XfIY1bUsq0yH09SP139FUwCLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_4091.JPG)
We managed to put together the Ratte :D
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-g8FH7nL4M4Y/Wf2NY-_1BVI/AAAAAAAAEpg/uV1p0f1KLZIL1Mbnwt0QUzAgJoFZpsMcQCLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_4092.JPG)
The rear AA positions ma find themselves replaced at some future stage with SAM missile-pods or similar; and we noted iwth some interest that the Maus turrets *also* fit on the same mountings...
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-HJyra6XNg8Q/Wf2NZLptZ3I/AAAAAAAAEpk/DKV-po9mEyoqmpa6Kf-k0H7iRerFxAVIACLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_4093.JPG)
Even in 1:144 scale, ti's still a preetty impressive looking piece of kit!
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Va7huy4zdZ8/Wf2NZiUQSQI/AAAAAAAAEpo/zBIQ7o4iSqIS-eslRQz4ULBHiBjTxXOGQCLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_4094.JPG)
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NCyMHEW0Vyg/Wf2Nae5kljI/AAAAAAAAEps/10flbWvp9ssrgbyuj_VRN8usd3607GL1gCLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_4095.JPG)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-4lyvI7oBBXg/Wf2Na2qH21I/AAAAAAAAEpw/ECviYn5jZkET2j-FTw4nz0i8Ai6T3rkCACLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_4096.JPG)
Now, the *next* step [othe r than painting] is going to be to work out what to call this 'smaller scale' Ratte. Which will be a production model with some of the silliness worked out or something. Some other scale of rodent, perhaps? Or something a little more 'grunty' - like one of the goats that pulls Thor's chariot? Dread Sagittary? [this inspired by Agis' centaur on his full 1:100 scale Ratte] We'll have to see ...
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-zch6-CEHTGc/Wf2NbdJXMQI/AAAAAAAAEp0/FuU-OunGQDAAKVo7WVs67u1xmGPZbgwjQCLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_4097.JPG)
Aanyway .. full-shot of everything built this afternoon.
Gosh I'm glad I bought an additional pot of Abaddon Black for undercoating with [pretty much entirely for the Ratte - which also went through an entire tube of superglue *by itself*] earlier this week!
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Impressive.
So what is the kit moulded in if you have to use superglue
Rather than poly/liquid poly?
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Nice one - quite a haul! Where in New Zealand did you manage to find that range of models? I only found a great little store in Taupo.
the baby Ratte could be the Meerschweinchen?
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Impressive.
So what is the kit moulded in if you have to use superglue
Rather than poly/liquid poly?
Oh, it's just standard plsatic. Certianly probably *could* have used polycement. Just uh .. didn't think to grab any. Hence a supermarket run en-route home to grab the aforementioned.
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Nice one - quite a haul! Where in New Zealand did you manage to find that range of models? I only found a great little store in Taupo.
the baby Ratte could be the Meerschweinchen?
Pretty much everything that's not Battlefront or GW was sourced from Modelair in Auckland - they've recently relocated from Newmarket to Dominion Road. Surprisingly decent range in some particulars; although I do need to scope out some other places around Central Auckland. I've definitely seen some of the online suppliers in NZ - Mighty Ape being one obvious one, i forget what hte name of the model shop with a rather expansive online presence was - do all the Zvezda bits and pieces. The Ratte, however, [with its attendant Mice] I just happened to see was available, so i swooped on it at the earliest opportunity :D
And as for the Germanic 'Capybara' - now THERE'S an interesting/amusing suggestion!
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Brief shot of everything German on the painting-table atm and whre it's up to. Have finally finished undercoating the Not-Ratte, and think we might go with Mammut for it. Now jjust need to work out which camo scheme to go with or a simple battleship grey.
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Armour parking-lot's progressing apace, as well - Opel Blitz just requires the blue for windshields and leadbelcher for grilles etc. and it'll be done; Tiger, i'll do an experimental three-colour ambush camo; Jagdtiger will probably be left grey as-is, plus an ink-wash, and then some numbering in red and white and it'll look ace; Panther, might attempt a grey-and-grey camo scheme; King Tigers need to be standardized ... and yeah.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vYno43j7GB8/WgKqAwW8ToI/AAAAAAAAEqI/JW3QBGrOBgEpWg-ycMYykxGS-eBnpbU2gCLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_4160%255B1%255D.JPG)
Can then start looking at further expansion and generating a proper TO&E.
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Also, a further idea that occurred as to the overall 'shape' of war on the Eastern Front in this timeline...
So with the Russians basically moving as much stuff as they can east of the Urals and pouring out war-materials from behind that rather impressive natural wall .. if Germany wants to knock the USSR out of the fight for *Good*, it's going to need to get *behind* said Urals somehow.
As previously noted, one way by which this might be accomplished is a thrust up through the Middle East/Iran - although with the caveat that the Caucasus themselves are probably a questionable axis of advance, and Afghanistan uh ... well ... it's Afghanistan.
Now, the *other* way, of course, is to just *smash* your way through.
However, while i need to bone up on some strategic geography for this; I would be presuming that there would be a number of key passes and such through the Urals, which the Soviets have presumably fortified in a manner not entirely unreminiscent of The Fang or something. [seriously, the post-War Soviet Union managed to hollow out an entire mountain in that region to make into a bunker complex ... so I don't see why not...].
This leads on to two 'avenues of approach' for the Germans - first up, obviously, mountains are not entirely 'impassable' terrain. Once they're *in* said mountains, Gebirgsjager troops will attempt pathfinding across [I'm remembering the 'goat-track at Thermopylae here].
But for obvious reasons ... tanks don't really do over-mountain traversing so good.
Hence the *absolute necessity* for the German way of war, for capturing these passes *in-tact* without hte Soviets being able to block 'em off entirely with controlled demoltions or whatever.
Enter the Monster [and, for that matter, other strategice fforts at moving large-scale siege-artillery etc. into prime real-estate within firing distance of the Urals Gate whilst not being swept away by continual hewings into the side of the German salient by Soviet columns]...
the idea with this is that when you're taking on what's presumably at that point in time one of the more impressive fortifications known to man ... you may do rather well with a REALLY, REALLY, REALLY BIG GUN.
And while historically, the real German Army made do with attempting to haul over-large artillery on railway lines towards wherever it was they'd decided they no longer wanted to see ... due to the conditions that far East [and the presumable difficulty finding in-tact railway lines let alone laying thousands of miles of track all the way out there in parallel for a railway gun to get over there] ... well ... you could certainly do worse than having the whole thing on treads ['tracks' i suppose] rather than tracks and just drive it continually further east as needed.
Oh, and the other thing that'l probably be worth noting with this - apart from the uncertainty as to *which* passes are open, viable, an absolute deathtrap etc so the Germans don't *quite* know where they're going ...
... well, llooking at the experience of German attacking of static defences at the very start of the War in the Low Countries etc
... glider-borne or otherwise AIRCAV troops may wind up being absolutely key for the German efforts to get through the mountains. Whether that's fallschirmjager actually parachuting, or some sort of Ride of the Valkyries-blaring *proper* Air-Cav .. well, we'll find hat out in due course!
Also, this may wind up necessitating building a 'foothills of the Urals' table, replete with a pass at one end and uh ... heavily dug in Soviets with guns in the cliffs and what not.
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Went for another walk this afternoon..
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-mR6W5QRLUQM/Wgvahs1ph7I/AAAAAAAAEqc/9kwo56zhQWkdpr7ZaAVuVYRG6u4AochtACLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_4292.JPG)
The WWII elements: 2x Panthers [in addition to the one already assembled], 1x Panzer III G, 1x Opel Blitz [another one], 1x ISU-152 [another one], 1x Soviet 3-ton Truck, 2x SU-100s [in addition to the one waiting to be assembled]. Think that's everything ...
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-XWxo6SQ-bx8/WgvaiDYiX8I/AAAAAAAAEqk/VSyxEwr7Rcs2Pmf3to2rcXvKnFxXCwxTgCLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_4293.JPG)
Have also pretty much finished the Jagdtiger and first Opel Blitz, as well as the first ISU-152. Am also trialing a camo scheme on the Tiger 1, so we'll see wehre that goes [I'm *mostly* happy with it, based on something i've seen on Ferdinands, just needs a bit of tidying here and there.]
The Ratte has also made it all hte way from undercoating through to a battleship-ish grey and bone colouration on the main armament. I've called a bit of a halt there while i work out what, if anything, I do to it next - theoretically, dazzle-camo or something would be most appropriate, but I'm not entirely sure i'm up to that.
In any case, with quite a number of armoured vehicles on either side ready to be assembled, hopefully won't be long before some stuff starts seeing the field :D
[forces atm are, in whatever state of assembly:
* 3x Konigstigers , 3x Panthers , 1x Tiger 1 , 1x Jagdtiger, 2x "Mauschen", 1x Not-Ratte, 2x Opel Blitzes; and with any luck, the IFVs soon plus [body-]armoured infantry as well
* 3x SU-100s, 2x ISU-152, and the aforementioned 3-ton truck ]
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With another SU-152 almost completed, it seemed like a good idea to start adding some 'individualization' to my glorious collective comrade-mobiles. On a sudden flash of inspiration, decided to call this one 'BOGATYR' - a term which would translate as 'Warrior of God', or less directly as a knight - especially one charged with the duty of protecting the Motherland against invaders.
I also kinda wanted the idea of a slayer of monsters, given some of the *huge* German innovations it'll be up against.
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-yQ15SLIX5AQ/Wg3HM7DF4qI/AAAAAAAAEq0/8Ii4KDja97Meb4NGUBZuwTJUXgbmQTNcACLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_4310%255B1%255D.JPG)
Now, it's not the neatest job in the world ... but considering I've never attempted to write in Russian before, and that the nerves in my hands don't work properly to the point that writing in *English* with a pen and paper with any legibility is virtually impossible for me, I don't think I did tooooo badly with a not-too-fine detail brush and some rapidly-drying paint on a 1:100 scale assault gun :D
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Looks pretty good. An alternative is to use one of those white pens you can buy in art shops.
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Looks pretty good. An alternative is to use one of those white pens you can buy in art shops.
Legit call on that! Will def be something to consider when I get up to doing things of this nature on the Germans .. I do kinda like the slightly imperfect 'hand-painted' look on the Soviet vehicles - helps give the senes of a particularly brave & plucky crew who've found some white camo-paint from somewhere and scrawled a large-scale inspirational name on the side of their vehicle.
Now ...
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SU-100 Tank Destroyer 'Vityaz'. ['Vityaz' once again meaning a Knight; also used in quite an array of more recent Soviet military namings of things]
Also, made an attempt or two at hammering out some not-too-difficult camo for the Germans; the Panther grey-on-grey is very much a work in progress and will require considerable refinement, but shows initial promise. The Tiger 1 camo, by contrast, while also requiring a bit of re-detailing here and there to thin out and angularize the green lines ... I'm rather more happy with.
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The Tiger's scheme is not exactly 'historic', but is based on a combination of a colouration I observed on a number of Ferdinand / Elefant models people've done [i.e. the dunkelgelb and green], wih a more tangled "vine" application pattern derived from an approximation of some tritonal ambush pattern camo I found awhile back instead of the 'scales' seen on the heavy tank destroyers.
Like I say, these are basically 'drafts' for later and more careful applications on other miniatures later, I just wanted to see how things looked on the plastic before committing to anything and winding up having to re-paint anything half-way through.
Thoughts?
Oh, and on another note .. I noticed last time I was down the FLGS that GW has put out a further range of 'technical effects' paints designed to do mud-caking, rust and hte like. Has anyone had any experience with them?
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Another week, another walk...
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-UdokljQK-h0/Whaoo15OKUI/AAAAAAAAEro/cPu9HgumeLkWqK69GGq-vGADG2w5TpgwwCLcBGAs/s1600/23795293_10159646371320574_2312318516737174170_n.jpg)
The German part of the Haul
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Xmsd4gK4Fjc/WhaoudpCzwI/AAAAAAAAErw/wD1rhQvOF90-g-7arZkYkwPOeBkw5Oh4QCLcBGAs/s1600/23755250_10159646371955574_1255523591254757148_n.jpg)
And, assembled thus far:
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-RAdeXjaORyA/Whasf4Rht_I/AAAAAAAAEsE/No6Pwl-t5-gIIVuxdETCo-0uM8CZSEtlQCLcBGAs/s1600/23755678_10159646875025574_1334067742057744269_n.jpg)
Had some issues with the Sdkfz 222 [online reviews suggest this is .. not entirely uncommon]; althoug heverything else has gone together rather nicely and is presently awaiting finishing of undercoating.
Still playing around with camo schemes for much of it, but am now pretty much at full company-sized forces for pretty much all the Late-War German Armour - at least in principle.
The Pz IV might find service as another Raketenjagdpanzer type contraption, potentially using some of the AT-3s I've gott sitting around unused from the BMP sprues I've recently assembled. [even though, historically ... or, rather, somewhat a-historically, the X-7s I've seen people hypothetically mount on German armour are uh .. rather curious looking beasts in the extreme].