Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: chema1986 on February 14, 2017, 03:25:39 PM
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Hi all again, well I have read several articles about Justinian Byzantine Bucellarii, you know heavy cavalry Bow/ Kontos armed and covered in iron, with either half barded or non barded at all horses. About Comitatus cavalry I thought it was similar to those elite Bucellarii, but without bows and "nude" horses... is that correct ?? I guessed those comitatus were common in barbarian armies, like Heavy Ostrogoth cavalry. But I have been reading WAB Beyond the Golden Gate, although I dont play WAB, but is a very good book, and I have been several times on this blog, from a mate of the forum I think: http://guitarheroandy.blogspot.com.es/2010/08/justinian-byzantines-for-hot-lead-2010.html
I like his idea of mounting late Roman Cataphracts on normal horses and some shields and bucklers.
in the WAB rules, you could field up to 1 unit of Bucellari and up to 2 units of Comitatus by the way, so the comitatus are less "elite".
What do you think about the differences between the 2 kind of units? Were the comitatus more "barbarian" in appearance ? Did they use Kontos ? Gripping Beast Late Roman Cataphracts might do the job ?
Thanks in advance
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I have a 12-figure, unpainted Bucellarii unit.
What I did, as a matter of table-top convention, was to put them all on half-barded horses. I also have a Goth "body guard" unit mounted the same. That is just to discern the Bucellarii from normal cataphracts on the tabletop. They do have Gripping Beast bows in cases & quivers. I've read that bow cases were carried on the left thigh but that can be difficult due to positioning the shield. So I put them behind the figure on the horse.
I use a hodgepodge of figures, mostly Footsore and Gripping Beast with only a couple in full cataphract armour and the Footsore Late Roman General in the fur collar as the warlord. It will really look like an ad hoc unit, which is what I imagined a Bucellarii unit to be.
I believe Belasarius even had Huns in his Bucellarii, Aventine steppe nobles may be a good bet. Nevertheless, I get the impression, and I could definately be wrong, that the Bucellarii units seemed to be very "barbarian" in appearance as only exceptional warriors were recruited and they were warriors not only from Rome/Constatinople but also Vandals, Goths, Franks, Huns, almost everybody. Of course, in the same breath, what I was reading also stated that Belasarius outfitted his men with kit... so maybe he bought full cataphract armour.
Looking forward to seeing your Bucellarii unit soon :)
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Eeey! Thanks for your erudition Richard hehe here you can see part of my Byzantine or late roman cavalry force. I have already some bucellari, I want to add some converted foundry clibanarii as my elite of the elites, and the comitatus of gripping beast and some german cavalry using some Gripping Beast arthurians!
Light kavallarioi with bows
(http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz155/josemariacagigamata/IMG_7177_zpsmkv5hs8q.jpg) (http://s823.photobucket.com/user/josemariacagigamata/media/IMG_7177_zpsmkv5hs8q.jpg.html)
(http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz155/josemariacagigamata/IMG_7182_zpsgavex76m.jpg) (http://s823.photobucket.com/user/josemariacagigamata/media/IMG_7182_zpsgavex76m.jpg.html)
Some Bucellarii
(http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz155/josemariacagigamata/IMG_7188_zpsbvyzubvb.jpg) (http://s823.photobucket.com/user/josemariacagigamata/media/IMG_7188_zpsbvyzubvb.jpg.html)
Cataphracts
(http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz155/josemariacagigamata/IMG_7163_zpsguwrkh9v.jpg) (http://s823.photobucket.com/user/josemariacagigamata/media/IMG_7163_zpsguwrkh9v.jpg.html)
Heavy kavallarioi or bucellarii
(http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz155/josemariacagigamata/05560AEB-63A5-428C-9735-0D7C2F0FDAA3_zpsdhs96qp4.jpg) (http://s823.photobucket.com/user/josemariacagigamata/media/05560AEB-63A5-428C-9735-0D7C2F0FDAA3_zpsdhs96qp4.jpg.html)
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Whoa, wait a minute, are those 15s???? :o The last picture looks like 15mm next to your fingers!!!
Wow, fantastic! You really have the blending technique down! I can see it in the richness of the shields for example, the red. Wonderful brushwork! Hell, I'm still trying to copy your plaster technique from your watchtower with no effect.
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No, they are 28mm hehe. And the plaster you have to use and airbrush with creamy colours modulating them up to white, and then put some oil colours in the walls and brush them down in a striking motion with your brush moisted in white spirit :)
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I can't wait to see what Aventine produce for these. I really can't wait.
I was thinking about getting a head-start by making a unit of "goth" cavalry. There's a great description of, I think, Vandals in Belisarius' army fighting as a unit. But I'm exercising discipline and waiting for Aventine.
In the past I thought about using some Foundry figures labelled Clibinarii for the Bucelarii. I think now I want something to look less regular than that, maybe with shields and a uniform paint scheme to making them look like they are kitted out.
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Those are some nice figures! For Impetus, I assume?
But to get a a bit technical; the Roman army were the Comitatenses, not Comitatus. A Comitatus was the retinue of a Germanic leader.
About the Bucellarii and Comitatenses, here's a good read:
https://books.google.be/books?id=eK9aBAAAQBAJ&pg=PR12&lpg=PR12&dq=army+of+justinian&source=bl&ots=GiBSRRQOAF&sig=jS5Yla0aUanDwPHx6dVsvpGeXQA&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjE1bngtpDSAhWCPhQKHdvkAog4ChDoAQglMAE#v=onepage&q=army%20of%20justinian&f=false (https://books.google.be/books?id=eK9aBAAAQBAJ&pg=PR12&lpg=PR12&dq=army+of+justinian&source=bl&ots=GiBSRRQOAF&sig=jS5Yla0aUanDwPHx6dVsvpGeXQA&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjE1bngtpDSAhWCPhQKHdvkAog4ChDoAQglMAE#v=onepage&q=army%20of%20justinian&f=false)
The Justinian army was made up of Bucellarii, Comitatenses and Foederati.
Easiest of these are the Foederati; different peoples not part of the Empire but have treaties with Constantinopel. A treaty that demands military assistance in the form of manpower in exchange for example money or support. Justinian for example made such a foedus with Huns, Bulgars and Lombards.
The Comitatenses are made up of the people of the Empire as well as conquered peoples (like the Vandals after 534AD), the Laeti of former times. Laeti provide the same service like Foederati but are forced into it unlike the latter who had a treaty. So these Laeti, would they have been absorbed into the Comitatenses or would they have stayed seperate units? I don't know...
In the case of the Vandals I know that they emulated Romanitas and adopted the Roman lifestyle. They would have looked Roman when Belisarius conquered them.
Other peoples might have looked more barbarian when entering the Comitatenses as Laeti but would they retain their own identity or would they start looking and behaving like Romans?
I think that's a stylistic choice you can make and nobody can say that's right or wrong.
The Bucellarii are the same like the Comitatenses apart from who their paymaster is. And although Belisarius might have had around 2000 of them (7000 on his height of power) they were not his private militia. The Emperor could take them away, or other duxes might try and buy them away from one another.
As a foreigner was cheaper than a Roman to employ, it also had the advantage of using an otherwise possible enemy as a means of destroying another enemy's military threat.
Again, I think you can do what you want here stylistically; Romanesque, barbarian or mixed. Only avoid uniformity like a regular army unit would have had.
I remember that king Geiseric of the Vandals, made wedding arrangements for his son, Huneric, with a daughter of the Visigothic king, Theodoric. As part of the bridal treasure were 2000 Visigothic warriors, as bucellarii I assume. So even the barbarians used them.
I believe Belasarius even had Huns in his Bucellarii, Aventine steppe nobles may be a good bet.
Huns and Heruli were used in conquering the Vandalic Kingdom. Although I don't know if they were Foederati or Bucellarii.
TL,DR: They were mercenaries not a standing uniformed army. So you can mix Romans, Germanics and Goths together. Mix equipment together; light with heavy and a catapphract thrown in somewhere. No uniform clothing and different types of shields. Think eclectic :)
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Thanks !! Jericho, yes are for impetus, but Hail Caesar too !
And about the comitatus... Im afraid I have seen them apart from comitatenses, even I have seen the term comitatus instead of buccelarii regarding Belisarius "private" army. You I have read several articles about it, even in the WAB supplement the heavy cavalry is divided between : Bucellari 0-1 units, Comitatus 0-2, foederati , and regular byzantine. Apart from the allies (Symmachoi) of Ghassanid, moors... and the german cavalry
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I have just painted the first model of the bucellarii of the guards of Belisarius, the miniature is from Foundry with a GW plastic pennant, I hope you like it :)
(http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz155/josemariacagigamata/8F73BB32-84DD-4822-A21B-AB2A9469B838_zpszwcutrfs.jpg) (http://s823.photobucket.com/user/josemariacagigamata/media/8F73BB32-84DD-4822-A21B-AB2A9469B838_zpszwcutrfs.jpg.html)
(http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz155/josemariacagigamata/ABF8AF5D-B527-4220-9D63-F4A8A143DFEE_zpsdeui1qd0.jpg) (http://s823.photobucket.com/user/josemariacagigamata/media/ABF8AF5D-B527-4220-9D63-F4A8A143DFEE_zpsdeui1qd0.jpg.html)
(http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz155/josemariacagigamata/6517009F-B61E-4592-8643-FAC29EFD4811_zpsgwoprkhq.jpg) (http://s823.photobucket.com/user/josemariacagigamata/media/6517009F-B61E-4592-8643-FAC29EFD4811_zpsgwoprkhq.jpg.html)
(http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz155/josemariacagigamata/247CC7C2-04B9-4DCF-A10E-32AD4E5A412B_zpshf5zhbiw.jpg) (http://s823.photobucket.com/user/josemariacagigamata/media/247CC7C2-04B9-4DCF-A10E-32AD4E5A412B_zpshf5zhbiw.jpg.html)
(http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz155/josemariacagigamata/645AF499-48C5-46A2-9197-D9F7B5311B3B_zpsi2pddfme.jpg) (http://s823.photobucket.com/user/josemariacagigamata/media/645AF499-48C5-46A2-9197-D9F7B5311B3B_zpsi2pddfme.jpg.html)
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Lovely figures! Keep 'em coming!
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Stunning painting! Very lovely.
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Well done!
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I like, I like this a lot! That is an interesting and very good looking technique on the konto. That purple shading on the shield really makes the Chi Ro "pop." Excellent, keep them coming.
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hi there! Now here you have a unit of Huns horse archers, all late Roman or Belisarian Byzantine must have some Huns with them ( or against them! ). These little Foundry miniatures were a joy to paint, although smaller than some manufacturers, the are ridding real
ponies, so they are more accurate, IMHO. I hope you like them!
(http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz155/josemariacagigamata/C3DF0D7D-E1DB-4925-9D93-76995B659BB3_zpsvyzfiykl.jpg) (http://s823.photobucket.com/user/josemariacagigamata/media/C3DF0D7D-E1DB-4925-9D93-76995B659BB3_zpsvyzfiykl.jpg.html)
(http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz155/josemariacagigamata/6A98D3E4-8EA1-4E28-85EB-AACF42F4CF23_zpswukf34v2.jpg) (http://s823.photobucket.com/user/josemariacagigamata/media/6A98D3E4-8EA1-4E28-85EB-AACF42F4CF23_zpswukf34v2.jpg.html)
(http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz155/josemariacagigamata/2A7131E8-9187-4596-95B6-38E55DD1F5E7_zpsft7pkzaq.jpg) (http://s823.photobucket.com/user/josemariacagigamata/media/2A7131E8-9187-4596-95B6-38E55DD1F5E7_zpsft7pkzaq.jpg.html)
(http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz155/josemariacagigamata/F2C1A678-7BCE-473B-A302-F137F73C31DD_zpshsrvv85d.jpg) (http://s823.photobucket.com/user/josemariacagigamata/media/F2C1A678-7BCE-473B-A302-F137F73C31DD_zpshsrvv85d.jpg.html)
(http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz155/josemariacagigamata/CB1C7683-4C6C-4DF1-84C4-590C52571C42_zpsm3v8r0x0.jpg) (http://s823.photobucket.com/user/josemariacagigamata/media/CB1C7683-4C6C-4DF1-84C4-590C52571C42_zpsm3v8r0x0.jpg.html)
(http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz155/josemariacagigamata/A3B726B2-E815-455C-98B0-476C4D8F9370_zpsclkbxsjr.jpg) (http://s823.photobucket.com/user/josemariacagigamata/media/A3B726B2-E815-455C-98B0-476C4D8F9370_zpsclkbxsjr.jpg.html)
(http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz155/josemariacagigamata/FDD5C5C7-9ADB-4200-9CE0-4CE0C234C85C_zpsqubwba1y.jpg) (http://s823.photobucket.com/user/josemariacagigamata/media/FDD5C5C7-9ADB-4200-9CE0-4CE0C234C85C_zpsqubwba1y.jpg.html)
(http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz155/josemariacagigamata/FDD5C5C7-9ADB-4200-9CE0-4CE0C234C85C_zpsqubwba1y.jpg) (http://s823.photobucket.com/user/josemariacagigamata/media/FDD5C5C7-9ADB-4200-9CE0-4CE0C234C85C_zpsqubwba1y.jpg.html)
(http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz155/josemariacagigamata/032BC265-9EBB-49B2-8F9A-E148C08B2CC1_zpstbmtyzpo.jpg) (http://s823.photobucket.com/user/josemariacagigamata/media/032BC265-9EBB-49B2-8F9A-E148C08B2CC1_zpstbmtyzpo.jpg.html)
(http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz155/josemariacagigamata/83B62E87-BB35-4CC0-A2F4-84E863423DFB_zpsubih5gq2.jpg) (http://s823.photobucket.com/user/josemariacagigamata/media/83B62E87-BB35-4CC0-A2F4-84E863423DFB_zpsubih5gq2.jpg.html)
(http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz155/josemariacagigamata/11CB94EF-CFCE-4757-81A7-06B10A9B799E_zpsgyxrv2a6.jpg) (http://s823.photobucket.com/user/josemariacagigamata/media/11CB94EF-CFCE-4757-81A7-06B10A9B799E_zpsgyxrv2a6.jpg.html)
(http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz155/josemariacagigamata/7A04474F-B016-4B6D-B6C8-DFFCD8668822_zpsk2jrtnso.jpg) (http://s823.photobucket.com/user/josemariacagigamata/media/7A04474F-B016-4B6D-B6C8-DFFCD8668822_zpsk2jrtnso.jpg.html)
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Nice painting on those Foundry huns. I particularly like the dangly heads.
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Painting looks great- I like your style. 8)
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Great paintjob, very good use of the foundry miniatures :)
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Many thanks guys !
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Beautifully done and a lovely painting style, a real pleasure to look at. You basing is very nice too!
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Excellent work! I wait for continuation
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Been at the workbench and missed this. Great brushwork on those Huns!!!!!!!! They look fantastic.
I picked up some Foundry Huns from Col. Bills and I was sceptical that they would fit in with Aventine and Gripping Beast Huns since Foundry can be a bit smaller, but they did and very well. Those are great sculpts and your paint job certainly does them justice. Great job!
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I like seeing your painting style. It seems like one can almost see how it was done just by studying the detail. Excellent.
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thank you all for your kind comments :) I still have a pile of them to paint...
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Beautiful paintwork!