Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Pikes, Muskets and Flouncy Shirts => Topic started by: Christopher on 15 February 2017, 11:00:17 PM
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Which set of ECW rules are the most historically specific?
I'm hoping there is something out there that does for the ECW what British Grenadier does for the American War of Independence - identifying the individual regiments and their size.
Any help great fully received.
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Hmm... regiments were a different beast in the ECW than later periods. Some regiments have a famous (infamous) histories Newcastles white coats as an example, but getting those aspects in a game is real something which I believe many rules struggle with - other than calling them elite etc.
In fact many rules struggle with the ECW generally IMO. Reflecting such things as the lack of control for successful cavalry is rarely done well. The Successful Cav were quite likely to chase of the battlefield never to be seen again when they won... No out of the game for a turn but off for the whole game. Impetuous or uncontrollable is rarely shown well on the
I have recently been moving to Peter Pig's regiment of foot v2. It's a more stylized games but actually has a pre-battle cannonade and reflects the cav battles (and control risks) better than many sets. But it's not perfect either.
Pikemans Lament can give some fun small scale games - we had a fun one this eve. :)
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Hi Christopher
Sadly the ECW is (in my opinion) one of the most misunderstood periods when it comes to wargaming. Many, erroneously, see it as a period of deep pike blocks, gallant "cavaliers" galloping everywhere and massed melees. This image is, largely, a wargamers/re-enactors invention. It was a lot more complicated (and interesting) than that.
We'll all have our own opinions but, so far, I would suggest the most accurate set of rules out there is Forlorn Hope by Pete Berry and Ben Wilkins (I think you can still get copies from Caliver Books?). If you get the latest edition it also includes some very good notes on troop appearance etc.
That said these rules are quite old now. We, sadly, still await a modern set of historically accurate, playable rules.
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We, sadly, still await a modern set of historically accurate, playable rules.
Given the nature of the ECW I don't think that is ever likely to happen, historically accurate or playable, but not both.
From memory I think Forlorn Hope would be the closest, but I haven't played them for over a decade. Recently I have been playing Regiment of Foote which is a fun game, with a good flavour of the period, but I'd hesitate to say "historically accurate". I am just looking at The Pikeman's Lament (our first game is tomorrow) which would give enjoyable small scale skirmishes, but not big battles.
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If you want information (rather than rules) go to the Sealed Knot (E.C.W. reenactment)web site.
The Sealed Knot has evolved since its conception, & is therefore definitely quirky. For example if you (a person) join up you join not the Sealed Knot, but your chosen regiment. The REGIMENT is in the Sealed Knot. As a result most (if not all) regiments have their own websites. You can get a lot of information (including lots of nice photographs) from a bit of trawling.
As to rules, I am about to re-enter ECW starting with 'The Pikeman's Lament'. When I have more than enough for skirmish I will move on. A friend rates the simple rules that are included in the paper armies series (the ECW one..duh). I have tried many over the years:-
WRG Too generic, for the whole Renaissance period;
George Gush. Too slow for a big game;
Once upon a time in the West Country. Fun, but for a skirmish;
File Leader. O.K. for small unit actions;
Peter Pig's. Good for a campaign, but needs lots of (Generic) pike & shot bases, where. Good for 15/10/6 mm etc.
Games Workshop (1640?) I hated, but others liked and
Commission of Array, a home grown set which had lots of 'chrome' & fun things. I may have to track down my copy & update it ( a lot!)
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Pike and Shotte?
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Which set of ECW rules are the most historically specific?
I'm hoping there is something out there that does for the ECW what British Grenadier does for the American War of Independence - identifying the individual regiments and their size.
Any help great fully received.
Our club has a set which should fit the bill. Like 'British Grenadier' part of the inspiration for the rules is a set called 'Loose Files and American Scramble'. The rules are called 'Warr Without An Enemie' - http://www.wfgamers.org.uk/WWAE.htm (http://www.wfgamers.org.uk/WWAE.htm).
The game uses bases of figures to make up units with 1 base being 60 to 100 infantry and half that of cavalry. Units are therefore 3 to 10 bases of figures and it is up to you how man figures per base you use. Units are also rated for quality and tactics/weapons.
If you look at the above site you will see some scenarios including http://www.wfgamers.org.uk/images/resources/Whalley.htm (http://www.wfgamers.org.uk/images/resources/Whalley.htm). At this battle you will see the Royalists have 3 infantry units
Molyneux's Foot: 3 Trained I1 bases
Tyldesley's Foot: 4 Veteran I5 bases
Fylde's Clubmen: 6 Raw I3 Clubmen (no firing)
The I1, I5, etc refers to the amount of pikes/muskets in the unit - I1 is all muskets, I7 is all pikes.
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Pike and Shotte?
Very generic IMO. I have tried a few games and they work but the mounted arm feels too strong (can be changed with tweaking the stats provided) and the hedgehog mechanism is a little odd. It also really does not cover the lack on control real commanders experienced though IMO. Enough customizations can make it ok but it's far for perfect IMO.
As others have stated Forlorn Hope is another interesting set.
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I enjoyed Carnage & Glory's English Civil War system.
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identifying the individual regiments and their size.
Don't get hung up on Regimental specifics for ECW gaming unles you only want to skirmish.
Regiments were an administrative division not a battlefield one and vary in strength from 60 to 1200 men depending on the muster.
The companies are the important element of ECW armies and are "Brigaded" together according to need and any given Brigade (Battallia) may comprise troops from several "Regiments" and vary in ratio of Pike to Shot.
Take the time to read "The Mechanics of Infantry Combat" by Stuart Peachey which gives an excellent instruction in how ECW battles were fought.
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The Kingdom is Ours by James Daniels is a good set of rules in my opinion and I have been using it for a year now. I get the feel of the period and I like the army creation/building as it give scope of many different armies.These rules can be nade as simple or complex as you like.
Also there is Peter Dennis's English Civil War rules too
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'For King and Parliament' is quite good (and quite detailed).
There's an ECW version of 'To the Strongest' in the pipeline if you want something simpler and more streamlined.
DBR works very well for big battles if you use 'condensed' scale.
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Take the time to read "The Mechanics of Infantry Combat" by Stuart Peachey which gives an excellent instruction in how ECW battles were fought.
That sounds interesting; is it generally a hard book to find.
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That sounds interesting; is it generally a hard book to find.
Try Caliver books - Stuart Peachey also has a very interesting new book out - "The Soldiers Life in the English Civil War" that builds further on his earlier writing. Again Caliver have some copies although I got mine from Empress Miniatures of all people.
When reading it's worth remembering that most of the ECW was probably very regional. Stuart Peachey is very good on the western campaigns which he uses to provide many eyewitness examples of combat. It is possible the war elsewhere may have been more effected by different factors such as terrain, horse supply, logistics etc (e.g. the war in the North East). To get a feel for this and help form your own opinions it may be worth trying "All the King's Armies" by Stuart Reid (it was even on Kindle when I last looked!)? Not everyone likes Stuart's writing but, personally, I think this book is a great starting place.
The great (and frustrating) thing about the ECW is that the primary sources still leave large gaps in our knowledge so it's important (I think) to read into it and form your own views rather than just listening to others. No one has a monopoly on being right in this period!
As for re-ensctors as a source - be careful (and, yes, I am one of those re-enactors). They don't always get it right and when proven wrong can be very reluctant to change having spent a lot of money acquiring their equipment etc. They are as infallible as everybody else!
Hope this helps.
Ian
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Try Caliver books - Stuart Peachey also has a very interesting new book out - "The Soldiers Life in the English Civil War" that builds further on his earlier writing. Again Caliver have some copies although I got mine from Empress Miniatures of all people.
The great (and frustrating) thing about the ECW is that the primary sources still leave large gaps in our knowledge so it's important (I think) to read into it and form your own views rather than just listening to others. No one has a monoply on being right in this period!
Yes, although I have only read a few passages from first or second hand accounts it is obvious that what many seem to except as 'evidence ' is just interpretation.
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Thanks guys, I really appreciate all the responses.
Thinking about it, it's really a set of rules that incorporate the actual orbats that I'm after.
On the basis of what everyone has said, ive ordered a copy of Forlorn Hope and Warre without an enemie. I'll let you know how I get on.
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If orbats and such is what you are after then the Partizan Press ECW scenario books are what you should be after; additionally, they are designed with Forlorn Hope in mind, iirc.
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Thanks
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Got my copy of Forlorn Hope. First look says, that the rules are very nice. Good advice, the reason to love this place. Thank you.
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Has anyone heard anything about Warlord coming out with a period specific supplement for Pike & Shotte to use for ECW?
I know they have the Thirty Year's War one... I thought there was an ECW in the hopper too though.
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The plan at warlord seems to be to release it around Salute.
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If there is a "Pike and Shotte" supplement for the ECW I really hope it's written by someone who actually knows at least a little bit about the ECW (unlike whoever wrote the rules).
I'll freely admit I've bought quite a few of the Warlord supplements and they are a very mixed bunch. Sadly, a lot of them seem less concerned with the history or the facts but settle into a sort of 1970's "Commando comics" style approach to the period they cover. If they extend this to the ECW the results could be awful. Another tired resurrection of Victorian stereotypes with "dashing" cavaliers, "dour faced" puritans, "warty" Cromwell's etc. :?
That said - I'd probably still buy it..... I'm an absolute sucker for anything to do with the ECW lol
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If there is a "Pike and Shotte" supplement for the ECW I really hope it's written by someone who actually knows at least a little bit about the ECW (unlike whoever wrote the rules).
I'll freely admit I've bought quite a few of the Warlord supplements and they are a very mixed bunch. Sadly, a lot of them seem less concerned with the history or the facts but settle into a sort of 1970's "Commando comics" style approach to the period they cover. If they extend this to the ECW the results could be awful. Another tired resurrection of Victorian stereotypes with "dashing" cavaliers, "dour faced" puritans, "warty" Cromwell's etc. :?
That said - I'd probably still buy it..... I'm an absolute sucker for anything to do with the ECW lol
Me too. lol Although I enjoy the Pike and Shotte rules, my excitement for the ECW supplement has been tempered. :-I
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Found this on warlords forum: http://www.warlordgames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=26514
The authors name is chas.
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I've played a lot of the George Gush WRG set and Forlorn Hope. The former seemed to give plausible games and results but I found them hard going to play due to the endless modifiers for morale.
I'm currently bashing around a modified set of Forlorn Hope which irons out some of the flaws in its mechanics and adds card activation.
I found WWAE a real slog to play. It's a very well worked out mash up of the AWI set Loose files and Forlorn Hope and the issues with the pike to musket ratio system, that has problems in FH, have been resolved. I just felt that it didn't feel very ECW to me and wouldn't be suitable for larger games. It was brilliant idea and others, I sure will enjoy it, just not for me.
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(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0288/8306/products/201013001-To-Kill-a-King-01.jpg?v=1489745332)
Description
168 pages of colour rich information with an introduction by writer Charles Singleton, this supplement for Pike & Shotte describes the history, armies, personalities and battles of the English Civil War. Included are detailed scenarios based on some of the most famous battles, complete with maps and orders of battle/army lists for the main protagonists.
Crammed full of detailed background information, including:
The Early Reign of Charles I
The Bishops’ Wars and the Short Parliament
Rebellion in Ireland
The First Civil War
The Second Civil War
Another War with Scotland
Plus a comprehensive Civil War Timeline and detailed look at the armies of the civil war who were the infantry, the cavalry and artillery, how were they organised and fielded.
The author then takes you on through the tactics of the Civil War and the military revolution of the period where the Dutch and Swedish systems were learnt and employed, and indeed explained here in detail along with more Civil War tactics.
Profiles of the Royalist and Parliamentarian Commanders.
Full colour guide to the colours used by participants in the Civil War.
Early war army lists for the Scots Covenanter Army of the Bishops’ Wars.
Bishops’ Wars Scots Royalist and English Pre Civil War Army.
The Royalist Army Lists
The Early Royalist Army
The King’s Oxford Army
The Early Oxford Army
The Late Oxford Army
The Royalist Cornish Army, 1643
The Royalist Western Army, 1644
The Royalist Northern Army
Welsh Marshes and the Anglo-Irish
Royalist Army
Battle Scenarios include:
The Battle Of Brentford 12 November 1642
The Battle Of Chalgrove Field 18 June 1643
The Battle Of Adwalton Moor 30 June 1643
The Battle Of Lansdown Hill 5 July 1642
plus a battle report for the battle of Nantwich 24 January 1644
The Parliamentarian Army Lists covering:
The Army under Lord Essex
The Armies of Sir William Waller
Fairfax’s Northern Army
The Army of the Eastern Association
Clubmen Army
The New Model Army
Specific Battle Scenarios include:
The Battle Of Cheriton 19 March 1644
The Battle Of Omskirk 20 August 1644
The Battle Report Of The Second Battle Of Newbury 27 October 1644
The Battle Of Wistanstow 8 June 1645
The Battle Of Torrington 16 February 1646
The Scottish Army Lists include:
Scots Covenanter
The Scots Royalist Army of the Marquis of Montrose
The Scots Royalist Army of 1644
The Scots Royalist Army of 1645
The ‘Traditional’ Montrose Army
Further battle scenarios look at:
The Battle Of Aberdeen 13 September 1644
Battle Report For The Battle Of Inverlochy 2nd February 1645
The Battle Of Benburb 5 June 1646
The Battle Of Winwick Pass 19 August 1648
The Irish Army Lists Include:
The Irish Catholic Confederate
Anglo-Scots Army
Ormond Irish Royalist Alliance Army
Plus
Special 'Period’ specific rules
’Late Misery of War' 8 pages of detailed campaign rules
10 pages of glorious siege rules
Concluding with the storming of Cirencester
And for everyone who purchases this fantastic tome of Civil War knowledge from the Warlord webstore there is the fabulously characterful FREE miniature of Lord Minimus... we'll find out more about him from our illustrious commander later!
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Hi,
I know the author of the Pike & Shotte ECW supplement quite well and I can confirm that he is indeed VERY well versed in all things ECW. He is the series editor for Helion & Company's "Century of the Soldier" series of books, has authored one of those titles himself and has organised a series of academic conferences on the ECW. In all honesty I can't really think of anyone much better placed to author such a work.
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I found WWAE a real slog to play. It's a very well worked out mash up of the AWI set Loose files and Forlorn Hope and the issues with the pike to musket ratio system, that has problems in FH, have been resolved. I just felt that it didn't feel very ECW to me and wouldn't be suitable for larger games. It was brilliant idea and others, I sure will enjoy it, just not for me.
I agree- I found WWAE hard work. After 3 games we still couldn't play it without constantly referring to the rules but there are some great ideas in there.
Hi,
I know the author of the Pike & Shotte ECW supplement quite well and I can confirm that he is indeed VERY well versed in all things ECW. He is the series editor for Helion & Company's "Century of the Soldier" series of books, has authored one of those titles himself and has organised a series of academic conferences on the ECW. In all honesty I can't really think of anyone much better placed to author such a work.
That is reassuring. :)
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I'm looking forward to seeing how the Irish/Clubman armies work...speaking of anyone notice the new clubmen mob in one of the pics?
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just finished painting up two units of clubmen
(https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j375/ErictheShed/ECW%20Armies/DSC_0307_zpstm9gid3p.jpg)
(https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j375/ErictheShed/ECW%20Armies/DSC_0309_zps4f6gzhzl.jpg)
looking forward to the new supplement :D
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You are doing the Gods work there Eric, looking good!
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We find DBR is actually pretty good for large battles (using the 'condensed' scale).
Field of Glory: Renaissance is very good - better than the ancients set, and works well for ECW.
'To Defy a King' works quite well - particularly the orders system, but the combat can get a bit fiddly.
'For King and Parliament' is an ECW version of 'To the Strongest' which we've been trying in its playtest version and that is pretty good
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Very nice work, Giles. I wait for the rules since they showed some early drafts/talked about at Salute. They promise a lot, hope the reached the very high goal.