Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Interwar => Topic started by: Kommando_J on March 23, 2017, 07:54:37 PM
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Anyone seen this? Some great BUF bully boys methinks, cant wait to see what else they make.
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Look forward to seeing what they do with it. Could be some interesting stuff for VBCW and even playing the actual scenarios too.
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There seems to be British militia that fit in with vbcw, plus a sniper in a gillie suit made from curtains im told.
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Sniper in a ghillie suit made from curtains 😊
I'm really looking forward to the figures to add to my VBCW forces.
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These look excellent. Where did you see them? I can't find any mention anywhere.
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Ok. Found it: Wargames Illustrated Prime.
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This is pretty cool. Where can I find more information on that.
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Would anyone be willing to pot some of the prime pics/info?
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Try watching this.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C00YUNRx0Zc&feature=youtu.be
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Rules for royal navy, LDV and buf...this is gonna be good.
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It's already revived my interest in the VBCW. Hoping there are some samples at Salute.
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Hopefully miniatures for the Royal Navy will be forthcoming as well.
I'm also hoping it will increase awareness of VBCW.
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It's already revived my interest in the VBCW. Hoping there are some samples at Salute.
I'm hoping the figures will be released at Salute or available by Carronade (13th May) as the book is due out mid May.
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Looking forward too this book alot, can't wait to pick up the British Fascists to bash against my Home Guard.
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Will definitely be buying this!
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Watched the video on full screen with pause at the ready, found out the following:
Regular British forces
Royal Navy force
Dads army force
Volunteer force which includes leaders, waterway units, rollerblades rules, boy scouts and a longbowmen club!
Buf forces include rules for a buf officer plus various buf mobs, also included are rules for a gang boss(officer) and gang unit.
Oh and of course early war Germans.
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Volunteer force which includes leaders, waterway units, rollerblades rules, boy scouts and a longbowmen club!
Footsore make a nice runner on roller skates and 1st Corps have an excellent set of Boy Scouts.
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I'm really looking forward to this.
(http://wargamesbuildings.co.uk/WebRoot/Namesco/Shops/950003459/MediaGallery/Categories/Operation_Sea_Lion/Operation_Sea_Lion_Photo_Gallery/Page_1,Medium.jpg)
We've designed an extensive range of British pillboxes and other British defenses to go with our British 1940's building range. I'm busy painting up some early war Germans to go against by BEF & Homeguard.
http://wargamesbuildings.co.uk/SeaLion (http://wargamesbuildings.co.uk/SeaLion)
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OK, it's fantasy, I get it but has anyone asked themselves where the BUF were in 1940?
The hardcore, like Mosley and co were interned for the duration. Those who weren't and were of military age were likely being called up. Nicholas Mosley recalled in his memoirs, how by strange coincidence two members of his platoon in Italy in 1944 were ex-members of the BUF and were given to singing old BUF songs (delightful irony). It wasn't a large movement to start with, with maybe 20,000 members, hangers on and sympathisers at its peak in the early/mid 'thirties and it had split as a movement with folk like Joyce fucking off to the Fatherland.
While we are at it, where did the lads in the piccy get their SMLEs? After the fall of France Britain was desperate for weapons. The Home Guard got Lend Lease P-17s, with a literal handful of ammo. Somehow the vestiges of the BUF have managed to arm themselves with .303s?
OK suspension of disbelief turned on. Carry on!
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OK, it's fantasy, I get it but has anyone asked themselves where the BUF were in 1940?
The hardcore, like Mosley and co were interned for the duration. Those who weren't and were of military age were likely being called up. Nicholas Mosley recalled in his memoirs, how by strange coincidence two members of his platoon in Italy in 1944 were ex-members of the BUF and were given to singing old BUF songs (delightful irony). It wasn't a large movement to start with, with maybe 20,000 members, hangers on and sympathisers at its peak in the early/mid 'thirties and it had split as a movement with folk like Joyce fucking off to the Fatherland.
While we are at it, where did the lads in the piccy get their SMLEs? After the fall of France Britain was desperate for weapons. The Home Guard got Lend Lease P-17s, with a literal handful of ammo. Somehow the vestiges of the BUF have managed to arm themselves with .303s?
OK suspension of disbelief turned on. Carry on!
I am guessing they are just going the whole fictional weird war rout with the 5th columnist being more prevalent then they where in real life. I mean honestly I would think if the invasion did kick off that most of the remaining fascists would have sided with old Blighty against the Hun. lol
But makes for good a good story all in all. Like in "It happened here" what was left of the British military was shipped off to the Russian front, or enlisted into the English SS units, still Russian front. And the only guys fighting the Free British forces and Americans where Germans.
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The BUF are pretty much the pantomime villains and are expected to be present by most. They did have a membership upsurge after Munich, but once war was declared that was pretty much it for them and their leaders were interned (474 of them iirc). I would be surprised if some members didn't have weapons hidden, but as some figures seem to be carrying clubs, there seems to be an element of game balance and realism (sort of) at work. Let's face it an unarmed force is going to suffer in-game.
The shortages in the army were mostly due to its massive expansion, the whole 'hardware left on the beach' thing is somewhat over-blown and for the most part was about 40% of stock of most things, but 60% of the tanks (iirc). So many new units needing equipment meant most got just a minimal share for training purposes, but the units in being and trained were being brought up to strength in equipment as it rolled out of the factories.
The dire shortages and LDV with pitchforks largely stem from before France was lost. From August things began to improve quite quickly and as early as September the Army was not bad off all things considered. Okay so maybe 21st Armoured Brigade was equipped with Vickers Mediums and Mark II lights in September, but they also had the first ten or so Mk III Infantry Tanks (which would later be christened the Valentine). 1st and 2nd Armoured Divisions were in reasonable shape, albeit not quite at full strength equipment-wise.
I wouldn't want to preempt what might be the scenario they've gone for, but it's possible that the BUF appear as auxiliaries or 'milice' in occupied areas (and if we're honest there would be a fair few collaborators if the war looked lost). I'm also inclined to think that the idea of a 'war in the North' and an 'unoccupied zone' (like with France) gives the scenario legs beyond the initial invasion.
I'm quite interested in the whole idea, but they pretty much had me at 'Sealion' anyway. ::)
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I wouldn't want to preempt what might be the scenario they've gone for, but it's possible that the BUF appear as auxiliaries or 'milice' in occupied areas (and if we're honest there would be a fair few collaborators if the war looked lost). I'm also inclined to think that the idea of a 'war in the North' and an 'unoccupied zone' (like with France) gives the scenario legs beyond the initial invasion.
Key words being 'if the war looked lost'. The Germans trawled the POW camps in 1943 and '44 and of the 200,000 or so British and Commonwealth POWs they came up with 27 mental midgets to join their British Free Corps. Contentious I know but whilst there is ample of evidence of co-operation and a degree of fraternization, there's not a great deal of active collaboration in the four and a half years the Germans occupied the channel islands. The most famous example being Eddie Chapman, which rather spectacularly and amusingly back fired on the Germans. The British are not joiners on the whole.
All I'm saying is that if the scenarios are pitched after a successful invasion, then yeah, maybe the odd collaborator but during the invasion? Just cashing in on the chance to offload some new toys. Odd really, as there are plenty of bits of 1940s invasion scare Britain that could be modelled/gamed, including the stay behind Auxiliaries.
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Seems like a transparent grab at the VBCW market, one with low risk since it ties into their existing lines. And as Arlequin said, were the war to really look lost, I'm sure some collaborators might be found. The Norwegians aren't joiners either, but the Germans found enough here or there to serve their basic needs as collaborators once the nation was overrun.
Can't really fault Warlord for the shoehorning, and it seems the decision has plenty of fans here anyway.
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And if else, the they will make good little baddies for pulp games. Especially being as lightly armed as they are. Can't have them shooting up the hero to early in story.
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The 'Sealion' industry is an entity that predates VBCW and even provided a lot of source material to inspire it back at its beginnings. The BUF in power in any scenario is pretty ridiculous though and the Germans liked to work with existing structures. A government with someone like Lord Halifax at the helm and the Duke of Windsor as a figurehead would be their goal; one acceptable to a fair chunk of what was still largely a deferential population back then.
As a subversive organisation the BUF's lifespan would be brief and if we were being objective, how many BUF members would be prepared to aid a foreign invader? Even Mosley for all his faults, was a patriot, he despised the Germans and was a veteran to boot. "Mind Britain's business" is not the same as "Help the Hun" and wouldn't be palateable to many members. Joyce and his mates were not dismissed without reason, most of the anti-semitist and pro-Nazi thetoric went with them.
I wonder in fact where an anti-occupation force would come from in reality? The CPGB were 'allies' until Barbarossa and many of the 'establishment' had been wooed pre-war. They didn't need convincing that the working class had got too big for their boots and that 'something should be done'.
I've always thought Len Deighton had it right with his 'school tie' and old boys' network left hand, with a grass roots working class right hand, neither hand having much idea what the other was doing. Ask the average Brit about life in Greater Germany and you'd still get "Musn't Grumble" as a response. If you look at the briefings related by ex-auxiliaries, there was little doubt that the locals would give them up and local collaborators were one of their defined target types.
The Invasion would be resisted by the many, but the Liberation would be the work of the few.
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Personally I like this whole idea, it will certainly give VBCW the shot in the arm its needed, and tbh I like the setting idea as it does allow you to make a force that could be used for VBCW but also allows you to use those german minis you have.
As Mosey was considered in the actual Sealion plan as someone to be trusted to from a government who knows? Hypothetically he may feel collaboration is best.
One thing that does bother me is ive heard the Churchill mini that was supposed to be done for warlord games day is being reused as the books promotional miniature.
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No, I like the concept from what I've seen and it is pure fiction in any case.
Tommy Gun Winston is a bit cliche, I would have thought Alan Brooke, or Colonel Blimp might have been more appropriate. Blimp being more achievable by Warlord as many of their figures give you the impression they've been working up to him for some time already.
;)
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Looking forward to this👍🏻
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I've always fancied running a Sealion what if campaign but not with the VBCW mash up. It's kind of an unnecessary element in many respects but as people have already stated you can kind of see where they're going with it. Fair enough.
Didn't Mosley actually formally offer the services of his organisation in support of the country? I seem to recall reading that somewhere.
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Looks interesting, I may finally succumb to Bolt Action.
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This and Hicksy producing late 30s British infantry might drag me back to temperate climes, spent the last 4 years doing sandskrieg
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Yes, interesting choice for him. Nice figures too as always. They'll match Warlord's 1pdr crew.
(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p235x350/17457855_1301814333229855_2229648921558217363_n.jpg?oh=11c06a72cac540215f20e5599e730a3a&oe=5968AF4C)
I wonder if he'll opt for Lewis Guns or Brens?
Some BD infantry with P14 rifles and BARs would be good, as would normal BD infantry; or just everything in fact, Warlord figures mostly do nothing for me.
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Yes, interesting choice for him. Nice figures too as always. They'll match Warlord's 1pdr crew.
(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p235x350/17457855_1301814333229855_2229648921558217363_n.jpg?oh=11c06a72cac540215f20e5599e730a3a&oe=5968AF4C)
I wonder if he'll opt for Lewis Guns or Brens?
Some BD infantry with P14 rifles and BARs would be good, as would normal BD infantry; or just everything in fact, Warlord figures mostly do nothing for me.
Nice, good to go for the Arab uprising In Palestine, if you were so inclined.
One thing in favour of Voldemort Games figures is that they are partially recycleable. You take the weapons, pouches helmets and other bits of useful kit from their sprues and apply them to properly sculpted figures.
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I have not come across Hicksy, look like great miniatures. Where do I get them from?
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I have not come across Hicksy, look like great miniatures. Where do I get them from?
Paul's Mutton Chop range is available from Empress Miniatures. These particular figures are not released yet though.
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I have not come across Hicksy, look like great miniatures. Where do I get them from?
Paul Hicks was the original sculptor behind Bolt Action Miniatures. You'll probably have seen huge numbers of his sculpts across a wide range of genres. He's exceptionally good (in my opinion!). If I ever had lots of disposable income I'd be asking him to sculpt a Vietnam range. Probably not going to happen though. :(
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Paul Hicks was the original sculptor behind Bolt Action Miniatures. You'll probably have seen huge numbers of his sculpts across a wide range of genres. He's exceptionally good (in my opinion!). If I ever had lots of disposable income I'd be asking him to sculpt a Vietnam range. Probably not going to happen though. :(
Gefreiter StefanSteve, he did a range for Vietnam, but the french vietnam. The Vietnamese can be used for the american vietnamwar. The range is now driven by FNG and distrubuted by empress. Wonderful figures.
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If I ever had lots of disposable income I'd be asking him to sculpt a ...
Get in line... and I imagine it's a long one. ;)
If you actually sat down and counted the number of ranges and companies he sculpts for, I imagine it would be a very impressive list. He still produces the occasional figure for Warlord too.
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Get in line... and I imagine it's a long one. ;)
I'm not sure he sculpts 'adult themed' ranges but I suppose you can always dream. :D
His near domination of the sculpting world is handy. Quite a few ranges are compatible that otherwise wouldn't be. I'm planning on mixing some Empress and Brigade games minis in a current project and it's nice to have the same sculptor, especially across two ranges which really have little commonality otherwise.
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Boom-tsh!
Yes it's true, buying across ranges is a minefield and while I might get excited over a new release, it quickly pales when I realise they will look odd next to what I have already. Knowing the same sculptor has worked at least in part on two ranges does make life easier.
That being said I've bought Blacktree in the past and thought they had five sculptors working to produce a four-figure pack.
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Boom-tsh!
T
Yes it's true, buying across ranges is a minefield and while I might get excited over a new release, it quickly pales when I realise they will look odd next to what I have already. Knowing the same sculptor has worked at least in part on two ranges does make life easier.
That being said I've bought Blacktree in the past and thought they had five sculptors working to produce a four-figure pack.
That explains some of the BTD Sci Fi figures I've seen where it looks like four blokes have worked on one sculpt.:D Presumably they had short attention spans.
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Gefreiter StefanSteve, he did a range for Vietnam, but the french vietnam. The Vietnamese can be used for the american vietnamwar. The range is now driven by FNG and distrubuted by empress. Wonderful figures.
Yes, I've seen those and very much like the look of them.
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I hope to god the new warlord stuff just goes for fixed heads lol
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If you fancy a gander at a larg-ish Op Sealion game we did a 'biggy' last year with BA version 3.
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=94086.0
;)
Happy Wanderer
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Anyone know of any snaps of the new stuff at salute?
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I had a good look around the Warlord stand hoping to see greens or an early copy of the book but couldn't see anything.
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Took some pictures on Saturday at Salute. Hoping they will be on sale at Carronade.
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Some, not all, of the minis are interesting but, what I look forward to are all the "strange", last resort weapons the British add... 8)
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If they are fixed head I will buy ALL OF THEM!
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Yeppers I want the lot :D
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Plenty of good stuff there!
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First batch is out
http://www.warlordgames.com/new-operation-sea-lion/
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From observation/replies, the ldv/BUF stuff will be fixed while the new crew weapons are all separate head...time to break out the paypal.
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The equipment and vehicles look spot-on, even if somewhat anachronistic (the Blacker Bombard was only issued in Late-'41 and the Smith Gun in '42, for example). I admit it wouldn't stop me from using them.
From the photos though, some of the helmets don't look too good, even by Warlord's standards. :?
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Agreed it's a shame Warlord didn't contract Paul H to do the figures however Peter Dennis cover art for the LDV box is spot on for Sealion & VBCW
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Quite happy with what they have released so far (Other than the LDV, which aren't great) really love the Armadillo Mk.3 & Smith Gun.
Should go well with my Foundry HG.
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-3SxrM3z_JKo/WOeJI9euGTI/AAAAAAAAFnE/zJhf4uIqgtgO5q8l1t-KR9Ce8fPDOW1mgCLcB/s640/DSC_0017.JPG)
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Chico,
They look great, do you know How the old foundry home guard scale up against mutton chop and Warlods Dads army?
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Mutton chop and warlords dads army set where both by Paul Hicks, the foundry stuff is chunkier but about the same size.
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Chico,
They look great, do you know How the old foundry home guard scale up against mutton chop and Warlods Dads army?
Thanks, can't help with the Mutton Chop but the Warlords BEF and Dad's Army scale well enough with the Foundry lot.
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Saw tis on te warlord games site...http://www.warlordgames.com/operation-sea-lion-gigant/, an expansion to operation sealion...not sure how to feel about this, on one hand it will mean more minis and lists and the campaign book felt short, on the other it feels like they are milking it somewhat.
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Saw tis on te warlord games site...http://www.warlordgames.com/operation-sea-lion-gigant/, an expansion to operation sealion...not sure how to feel about this, on one hand it will mean more minis and lists and the campaign book felt short, on the other it feels like they are milking it somewhat.
Yeah I was annoyed when I saw this, wasn't expecting it at all. Another £12 to splash out to make my Campaign book whole hmm.
Will I get it? Yeah I guess so and if it leads to more toys than that has to be a good thing even if some of the Warlord minis from this release ain't so great (Their BUF are far too plain, I'll be getting the Footsore ones instead).
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Perhaps, as it's fantasy, they are going to release it in three parts, a bit like 'The Hobbit'?
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The German invasion of Ireland (Operation Green) would make an interesting third volume along with interwar/WW2 Irish Army figures.
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Didn't the ww2 Irish army have lots of German style helmets? I can see friendly fire being a problem.
Im hoping we get to see more minis to round out the choices available to players, a command squad for the ldv and minis for the shire/archer patrols would be nice.
As for new units, some type of modern take on the highland charge could be fun, bunch of traditionalist guys in kilts with claymores, pistols, shotguns and broadswords.
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Yes they did
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Looking at the points on the map, NI is involved but the South is not.
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The Irish Army adopted the British Mk II Helmet in 1940, along with a new 'battledress' that looked remarkably like the SD uniform the British had just done away with. '08 webbing supplemented the Irish leather kit. British-style battledress eventually followed, along with '37 webbing.
I've seen Lewis and Vickers Guns in photos, as well as Boys AT Rifles, but no Brens or No.4 Rifles.
I understand that the new items trickled down as they appeared, with those closest to Ulster getting the British helmets first, probably to prevent 'friendly fire' while there was an invasion scare. A photo taken in County Cork in 1940 shows troops in the old uniform and leather kit and the M.1927 'German' helmet.
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Well I didn't know that about the Irish helmets. But I notice they are wearing the German helmet Celtic style - a German officer would never allow such slovenliness lol
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New video up that features new Bolt action minis, royal navy, gangsters, boy scouts and what seems to be a German man with a grenade disguised as a nun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=dwhxAczDmCI&app=desktop
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Thanks for linking us in to that . I am happy that more is coming out to support my interests so it,s all good as far as I am concerned.
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Thought I saw Barnes Wallis there?
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Unless it's meant to be Herr Doktor Six and his 'list' of people 'one would not want to be seen dead with' to paraphrase Rebecca West. ;)
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Those Royal Navy look rather tasty, I'm not even going to try and resist them :)
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The boffin type is already out, he serves as the crew of the great panjandrum.
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Those Royal Navy look rather tasty, I'm not even going to try and resist them :)
I agree the RN figures certainly look good, also the Boy Scout with a catapult and the BEF figure having a cuppa.
With the release of the Warlord figures, the new interwar figures from Footsore (with more to come) and the forthcoming 1930s British infantry from Mutton Chop this could be the best year ever for VBCW figures.
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Found this on facebook, must buy for pulp games at very least.
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Cracking!
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Oh lordy bagordy! Too good! ;D
At least Warlord seems to be having fun making these.
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If anyone is interested my BUF stuff arrived today, decent quality although a couple of castings are very flimsy.
Here are the buf hand sprues.
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Love the cricket bat. Hopefully the troops will do better bashing the Hun with them than the MCC did Vs the Aussies lol
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Ah ha! ... the old Bosch miniature exploding nun ruse. Don't they know that will never work on His Majesty's sharp-eyed subjects?
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The two figures below the nuns would be perfect for a 1930s Thirty Nine Steps game.
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Indeed, the one bottom left can be the "Mysterious Man with only one elbow". ;)
The others look alright though and odd peculiarities apart, what I've seen so far will suit my pulp needs.
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Ooh, i wonder if those weapon sprues will ever be available separately...
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http://www.warlordgames.com/forces-for-operation-sea-lion/
Some really interesting figures in there including the RN and the Defenders of the Realm set.
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Brilliant! Bring it on I say - all looks good to me.
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More new pics up, also in one of the blurrier ones I noticed the vickers vlb with a new crewman(possible plastic release finally?)
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I do like those Defenders of the Realm, will have to get them.
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Hello sailors! ;)
I'm struggling to fault very much in those two sets. The two ladies are especially well done imo.
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Hello sailors! ;)
I'm struggling to fault very much in those two sets. The two ladies are especially well done imo.
How can one say no to a Haley Atwell / Peggy Carter figure? Or rather two - one in uniform and one in mufti?
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Both of those sets are rather nice. ;)
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Zooming in I see rules for a ww1 tank as well as rules for an IRA brigade mentioned, allied with Germans it seems.
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Those sailors are great and would make a perfect assault section - Thompson, Lewis and three bombers!
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I've just picked up the BUF support weapons pack. With very little green stuff work (cover up belt, add waistcoat or tank top and maybe the odd head change) these will be perfect support weapons for generic un-uniformed units like LDV or all sorts of VBCW militias.
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Same here - received mine and the mortar is going to see some service in a number of theatres.
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I must say I do like the Defenders of the Realm & the Enemy sets, lots of uses for those.
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the WI review of operation gigant is up on prime, anyone got a youtube link?
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Why are two out the ten sailors armed with Molotovs ffs? It lessens their usefulness or requires conversion. If they had been a bit smarter they would have included an option for boarding cutlasses, which actually did get used on the Altmark raid in 1940.
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Mutton Chop are bringing out RN sailors in the near future
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Wouldn't you know it? You wait ages for a range and then two come along at once. ;)
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Wouldn't you know it? You wait ages for a range and then two come along at once. ;)
Seems to be the way of things.
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Interesting - nicely cast Paul Hicks sculpts vs Warlord caricatures..... mmmm ... "tough choice"! .... lol
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Its actually worked out nicely for me, a supplement comes along and then paul hicks decided to do BEF at the same time.
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Yep, looks like I'll be giving the Warlord ones a miss, they nearly had me in a moment of weakness. :)
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The petty officer is nice but I am unsure about the rest, has anyone checked to see if they are separate hand?
The new ldv are so you can actually switch out the molotovs. might be the same here.
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I prefer the Warlord ones if I'm honest, guess I'm just used too that style or that it's just cool to hate on Warlord and i'm too fat to be a cool kid hehe (Please note I'm just joking around with you lads.... I'm not too fat ;) hehe)
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I find the warlord release style very confusing, instead of releasing everything at once or in stages leading up, the release of sealion stuff has been erratic, for instance right now the second book is out but most of the releases this week are GoA.
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... or that it's just cool to hate on Warlord
I'm not Anti-Warlord, I have shelf of their publications altogether. I just don't think much of their figure sculptors in the main; which is obviously my subjective personal taste. Won't stop me buying vehicle models and what have you from them.
☺
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Mutton Chop are bringing out RN sailors in the near future
Sold! :-* :-*
Been looking for some of these ever since the Regiment games ones disappeared. My fondest hope would be that someone would do a pack in tropical kit but I accept the extreme unlikelihood of that.
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My fondest hope would be that someone would do a pack in tropical kit but I accept the extreme unlikelihood of that.
Pulp Miniatures
(https://pulpfigures.com/files/resized/pbt17-1x470.jpg)
(https://pulpfigures.com/files/resized/pbt16x470.jpg)
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Pulp figures are very nice... some with tin helmets would be a welcomed addition to the range.
Regiment Gamen were excellent figures too, I wonder if they're still in production somewhere...
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Pulp Miniatures
(https://pulpfigures.com/files/resized/pbt17-1x470.jpg)
(https://pulpfigures.com/files/resized/pbt16x470.jpg)
Cheers but I'm aware of those, what I should have written was square rig with shorts. Might have to stick with the 'B' option which is converting Eureka's footballers.
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Why not convert perry miniatures? They have shorts and helmets, just green stuff on a rig.
I will say this about comparing the two,while I love Paul Hicks sculpts...they can be a bit too delicate especially blades/bayonets etc. I like warlord sculptor Wojeks works, not so sure about whoever is doing the new aussies.
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Why not convert perry miniatures? They have shorts and helmets, just green stuff on a rig.
I will say this about comparing the two,while I love Paul Hicks sculpts...they can be a bit too delicate especially blades/bayonets etc. I like warlord sculptor Wojeks works, not so sure about whoever is doing the new aussies.
Cos they are too small and having aleady had the fun of having to shave off web anklets to make some Malayan police, I don't fancy them as source material.
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Just talked to warlord online, the official release date of Operation Gigant is the 29th although books are being sent out before then...a little miffed by the whole thing as with the supplement/minis coming out so late it doesn't give much room for actually getting involved in the online campaign.
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I was thinking the same in terms of the online campaign - Cart before the horse?
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Yep, as I have said elsewhere, it would make sense to release all the stuff at the start and give everyone time to actually build and paint their forces for the campaign beginning...instead we have scattered releases with two different supplements and an entirely new game being dropped in the middle, you could be forgiven for not realizing that warlord is gearing uo towards this campaign...that they are running at the tail-end of the holidays.
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Also apart from one painting studios work on facebook, I have yet to see any of the new stuff actually painted up.
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Friend with prime showed me the new video, looking forward to the book, a few observations:
Ira units from the looks it are improvised with up to two rifles, two shotguns a smg and a pistol for the leader as firearms options with no restrictions on at least half the squad being armed with improvised, should make running small squads of footsore miniatures much easier lol.
One of the vicker vlb tanks in the book looks to be a plastic version.
The sports teams squads look a bit ridiculous, novelty value only.
The officer cadet patrol force looks interesting.
ww1 tanks are now available to ldv, buf and ira.
The book is thinner at 64 pages.
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Received mine today. Yes, thinner volume but it's ok . I don't follow it closely just stimulates ideas . Some decent photos.
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What are the options for ira? any new agent/abwehr units?
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Yes , both feature and give ideas to build on. I am struggling with the idea of the IRA having a World War One tank as I recently read that the Tank Museum in Dorset loaned theirs out to the LDV. That's where mine is going as I am going to base my Op Sealion campaign being fought in Dorset.
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Yes , both feature and give ideas to build on. I am struggling with the idea of the IRA having a World War One tank as I recently read that the Tank Museum in Dorset loaned theirs out to the LDV. That's where mine is going as I am going to base my Op Sealion campaign being fought in Dorset.
The IRA? Weirder still. Apart from a fairly disorganised bombing campaign in 1939 where they managed to murder about half a dozen people, the effectiveness of the IRA against anyone with guns in 1940 was marginal at best. Their one big wheeze, robbing the Irish Army's armoury in Dublin, ended in a complete disaster. Not only did the Irish Govt get back the arms and ammunition, it picked up pre-existing weapons caches when it arrested some of the perpetrators. Do the people at Bolt Action actually read books 'n' stuff?
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The IRA? Weirder still. Apart from a fairly disorganised bombing campaign in 1939 where they managed to murder about half a dozen people, the effectiveness of the IRA against anyone with guns in 1940 was marginal at best. Their one big wheeze, robbing the Irish Army's armoury in Dublin, ended in a complete disaster. Not only did the Irish Govt get back the arms and ammunition, it picked up pre-existing weapons caches when it arrested some of the perpetrators. Do the people at Bolt Action actually read books 'n' stuff?
I am guessing no.... :D
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Something about it being a game, so we can tweak history as we like. ;)
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Something about it being a game, so we can tweak history as we like. ;)
Fair enough. I look forward to the Space Goblins and recidivist Boer commandos in the next gripping Bolt Action instalment. :)
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Its the armoury raid that maks the German sthink the IRA are big time ironically, its only after repeated failed missions that the abwehr realized they weren't suitable as fifth-columnists.
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Its the armoury raid that maks the German sthink the IRA are big time ironically, its only after repeated failed missions that the abwehr realized they weren't suitable as fifth-columnists.
Most of them weren't suitable to shovel shite.
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Fair enough. I look forward to the Space Goblins and recidivist Boer commandos in the next gripping Bolt Action instalment. :)
lol
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Is that compulsory? 😳 Oh no more £££££ 😁
The whole thing is made up so I am enjoying the variation of units. Anybody got anything stranger , than in the books so far, planned? ( for real now ladies - dont go making it up!) 😜
I have a ' barking mad 'unit planned. Will keep stum until painted up but think ATDU - an outfit I once worked at. Bovington garrison deploys - not letting those IRA lads have a WW1 tank that's already been secured by the War Department.
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Actually recidivist Boer Kommandos were sort of a thing, just not in the UK. Look up the Afrikaner Broederbond (AB) and the Ossewabrandwag (OB) - who even had their own paramilitaries; the Stormjaers.
As for WWI tanks, the British pushed for an international limit of 25 tons for tanks in the late '20s, mainly because they had nothing in service over 20 tons themselves and no real plans to exceed that.
Almost all the surviving Great War tanks in the UK were 'presentation tanks' to various councils. Possibly half of those were sold by councils for scrap in the Early '30s due to the cost of just painting and preserving them, as well as pressure from peace lobbyists complaining that they glorified war.
Some councils like Coventry and Pontefract had to back down due to local protest, but generally the general public were sick of being reminded of the War by them.
Many councils that failed first time round made use of scrap drives in 1939 and 1940 to get shot of those that remained, as the patriotic set could hardly argue at that. The metal itself was virtually useless however.
The Bovington tank may have actually been the only one, or at best one of a very very small number, able to be returned to serve in 1940. Bearing in mind how many WWI tanks Bovington had, that they could only make one of them fit for service speaks volumes for the chances for one exposed to the elements for twenty years.
There's tweaking history and there's twisting its nipples till it passes out from the pain. Usable WWI tanks in 1940 mostly fall on the latter end of the spectrum.
;)
Edit: Sorry it was '20' and '25' tons, not 16 & 20.
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Good background info that fills in some gaps . Cheers mate.
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Usable WWI tanks in 1940 mostly fall on the latter end of the spectrum.
The Renault FT was still used in WWII, even the Germans used captured ones.
You have to be careful not to get TOO historical here, I think that Warlord have bought, literally, into VBCW and attempted to put their own spin on it.
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That's pretty much how I see it - they flow into each other and that suits me as already have a lot of kit .
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"Actually recidivist Boer Kommandos were sort of a thing, just not in the UK. Look up the Afrikaner Broederbond (AB) and the Ossewabrandwag (OB) - who even had their own paramilitaries; the Stormjaers."
Oh, I knew that from an early age. My papa, had a wide variety of RAF tunes and ditties at his command and one of them was:
'There's a 100,000 Yarpies* in the old Transvaal but fuck all in the fortress of Tobruk.'
Why anyone would be even vaguely surprised at the Boer being fans of Hitler is the mystery here.
*Admittedly the yarpies were technically Boers but one accepts a degree of artistic licence to maintain poetic meter.
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The Renault FT was still used in WWII, even the Germans used captured ones.
You have to be careful not to get TOO historical here, I think that Warlord have bought, literally, into VBCW and attempted to put their own spin on it.
France kept their vehicles on the strength and in service, even commencing an upgrade in 1931. Britain did not and we were talking about the British tanks after all.
I've no issue with not being historical, otherwise I'd be taking issue with the whole concept of an Operation Sea Lion. I'm also not adverse to alternate history, I'm just not a fantasy gamer.
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I cheerfully used one of the local council presentation tanks in a Sealion game based on the Lardies 'Pevensey' scenario.
It was painted rather rusty, had no armaments and was used as walking pace hard cover by the LDV. With a 1 in 6 chance of engine seizure ;)
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By way of an example, Egbert the WWI tank at Hartlepool (it was West Hartlepool that was given the tank) was scrapped in 1937, having sat outside rusting for 18 years.
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One could give the fluff argument of the tank being a foreign purchase/donation by a wealthy local...or use the tank rules and make up your own diy tank made by the locals.
Really, its warlord trying to offload those ww1 tanks they bought then subsequently didn't get much use out of when bolt action ww1 folded.
My force will be led by a bunch of wealthy(and therefore 'eccentric') local aristocrats/businessmen.
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After Sealion - Gigant was a let down IMHO.
Sealion had a lot of content, some of it a bit misguided but generally on theme, Gigant hardly any - the majority being 'silly' units like football/cricket/rugby teams and just 2 units for the Axis and a couple of vehicles.
I want to build a Navy Shore patrol with HMS Excellent (A MkVI Heavy Tank) so I'll do that.
Seems very odd to have the MkVI for the IRA but NOT for the RN who actually bloody used one!!
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Have to agree, i see little point in Gigant, their was a lot more they could have added to Sealion,such as a Tubby Tankbuster or armoured dodges, but no we have Rugby teams.
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Yes, to be fair though both supplements felt a bit half-bothered, the free mini was an exclusive from the cancelled warlord games day a few years ago, and gigant isn't worth what they are charging(I got it at a discount for buying sealion though).
While the patrol lists where an interesting concept id have much preferred them being written as a 'normal' army instead a bunch of one unit niche armies like the archery club or the watermen, the ldv list should have allowed to mix all the units, id have loved to do a rag tag force.
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Excellent was a Mk IV surely? I don't think any Mk VIs were ever built, even a prototype. I do know Excellent was restored using parts from another that stood on Southsea Common. Again the 'myth' is that it served with the Home Guard, but it was in fact part of HMS Excellent's complement (Whale Island) as RichH plans to use it.
Really, its warlord trying to offload those ww1 tanks they bought then subsequently didn't get much use out of when bolt action ww1 folded.
I'm pretty sure you're right, I'm surprised they haven't shoe-horned the A7V in somewhere too.
But hey, if folk want to use them, organised IRA units, or even fifth column cycling Bavarian oompah bands, that's entirely up to them. Amongst my own interests a very different WWII starting in 1938 is prominent and I contributed to both the VBCW Books and The Abyssinia Crisis What-Ifs, so I'm hardly going to throw any stones from my glass house. I do prefer to stick to what was really around though rather than fantasise.
The Sea Lion - Dunkirk Summer we are experiencing has produced a number of figures and models that I can actually make use of, so I'm not complaining about that either.
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I'm also loving the minis that have been released but they could have really given VBCW the shot in the arm it needed.
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Rugby teams srsly?
OMG how do they stack up against the Women's Auxiliary Archery and rollerskating unit?
lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol
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Excellent was a Mk IV surely? I don't think any Mk VIs were ever built, even a prototype. I do know Excellent was restored using parts from another that stood on Southsea Common. Again the 'myth' is that it served with the Home Guard, but it was in fact part of HMS Excellent's complement (Whale Island) as RichH plans to use it.
I got my Is and Vs mixed up lol
some of us wrote some RN short party rules a while back for BA.
http://www.warlordgames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=27408&hilit=regulators
We had:
Royal Navy Rifle Section
Royal Navy Logistician Section
Royal Navy Pilot (Bloody hero)
Royal Navy Regulator
Royal Navy Master at Arms
Special rules:
All RN units have 'Spinning a dit' special rules - if a non RN unit is activated before an RN unit no further RN units can be activated that turn until only RN units remain unactivated as the units pulls up a bollard, sets the lantern swinging and settles into tales of their time aboard HMS Exadge and a game of Uckers.
Rum Bum and Baccy. A non-objective building on the table is nominated by the RN player as a pub. All RN units assaulting units in this building count as fanatics. Once an RN unit is in the pub it will not leave and counts as fanatics and tough fighters while inside. If the pub is destroyed by enemy action all RN units count as fanatics for the rest of the game.
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I feel the same about the casting stones remark...my dream has always been to do a VBCW force led by the Historic Reenactment Society (local toffs/businessmen convinced they are reincarnations of ancestors/famous people) so I could have a mix of all my fave historical units.
...But at the same time all this club and rollerskate nonsense seems a bit much...for instance the new defenders of the realm pack has a nice smg armed fellow...with rollerblades...grown men do not wear rollerblades and furthermore their is no rules options for a mini to have both a smg and rollerblades.,,or two versions of the agent carter mini...should have been separate, I have no interest as I dont watch agents of shield.
I loved the enemy agents pack, very characterful, did not like the Brandenburger restrictions, some rifles would be useful.
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The roller skating figure is probably based on this character
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I gather the idea was to shoot the Hun while he could not see you through tears of laughter?
;D
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If you've seen women's roller derby players in action you'd realise that the howls of laughter would soon turn to naked fear. I do see a major flaw in this mode of battlefield conveyance though and it's the same one the Daleks faced. Actually it's compounded by any area of grass or cobblestones.
I have no problem with folk creating their own fun. Who doesn't like a good troop of nuns in combat boots hiding MP-40s under their habits? When the silliness becomes some sort of codified list then I think it loses its charm. It's a bit like explaining a joke.
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The skating platoons were apparently termed 'Suicide Squads'; not because they were any sort of elite, but because of the injuries the unit suffered every time they turned out to train.
Another London unit was trained to manouvre by running and jumping across roof tops, not unlike the sweeps in Mary Poppins. Their accents would be a tad more genuine than Dick Van Dyke's though.
There was actually more than enough real weird, wonderful and silly in 'Invasion Scare' UK without making it up.
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Yeah but... Wouldn't that require reading? :)
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I think there was reading involved, but given the Warlord blurb about only '157 AT Guns' in the UK and the 'Brave Lads of the BEF' being the only regular troops available to fight, I don't think it's any book printed after around 1968. Since then a lot of documentation has been de-restricted.
Truth is that across the board equipment losses in France (total, not just Dunkirk) were in the region of 50-60% of stocks of any particular item, so another duplicate BEF at around 80% equipment issue could have been formed before the BEF was even evacuated. That doesn't take into account items produced between July and September on top of that and the U.S. weapons received. Unit equipment shortages were due to the number of additional divisions being formed above establishment.
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I agree with Carlos, a nice generic list that I can use counts as for some wackiness but...the thought of actual rules for a rugby squad...I just imagine them getting gunned down way beforehand.
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Probably wouldn't even survive standing in a line singing the National Anthem at the start of the game. ;)
Still they probably serve better than a football team, most of whom would fall down hurt when a round just comes close to them. A 'magic sponge' special rule would be required there.
::)
I also agree with Carlos though too, create a solid 'real' list and you can always rely on a group to add their own 'fun', as was the case with Rich H and Co (although I note the Bootnecks escaped ridicule!). 'Having a joke explained to me' is exactly what I'd think if the 'fun' had to be spelled out to me as a core component of a setting and I'd be inclined to feel a tad patronised into the bargain.
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I agree with Carlos, a nice generic list that I can use counts as for some wackiness but...the thought of actual rules for a rugby squad...I just imagine them getting gunned down way beforehand.
Ah but dont forget, their HQ is the Club Captain, Club Secretary and Groundsman !
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I bought a load of nice footsore stuff just before Sealion released...only to find that all the patrol lists are shite and force you to have half melee armed squads, also most of the units can only be run in one patrol so you need to field multiple allied patrols for any variety...and the gangster list should have gotten smg's lol.
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I confess I am surprised there's been no mention of Churchill's
Daleks Ironsides. ;)
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The funny thing is they are making them for doctor who, but as I mention elsewhere completely the wrong scale, its a shame, the cross promotionl between 28mm DW minis and warlords various ranges could have been very interesting.
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Canonical items.
Nazi paratroopers dressed as nuns.
Fifth columnists pushing prams.
Smith guns and Austin 7s. Technically speaking the Smith gun arrived too late for anything like a half realistic prospect of invasion but it's cool and we all have a copy of The Real Dad's Army.
Blacker Bombards.(see above)
Fougasses.
Butcher's van as personnel carrier.
Auxiliary Units but only cos you get to field Peter Fleming, author of Brazilian Adventure, his hunt for Percy Fawcett and Ian's brother.
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Wargames Foundry has some items that fill some of those gaps.
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1505/0474/products/WW2016_37683c84-8e1c-4f54-a0fa-410470144c27_1024x1024.png?v=1497013427)
These are on eBay.
(http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/BIwAAOSwb2xZex3-/s-l1600.jpg)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/PQMAAOSwgu9ZZwfB/s-l1600.jpg)
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Warlord does all of those too.
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Not the German agent pulling a gun out of the bag on the handlebars....
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True, but in this case I think warlord do the better enemy agents pack.
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Indeed the Blacker Bombard, Smith Gun and Northover Projector are all too late for a 1940 invasion.
Plenty of other things though;
RAC Motor Machine Gun units with 'Tilly MG Vickers portees' or Recce Austin 7 Tourers mounting a Vickers in front of the passenger seat.
TA Motorcycle Battalions.
The 'Malcolm Campbell Car' (Dodge Armoured Car), with or without German aircraft MGs, or a 6 pdr Gun.
Motley 3 and 6 pdr anti-tank guns (from scrapped WWI and Vickers Medium tanks).
'Bison' mobile concrete pillboxes and a cornucopia of armoured trucks and buses.
Bedford OXA (over 900 made).
Beaverettes with powered aircraft turrets mounted (double or quad).
Beer barrel on an Austin 7 chassis.
U.S. supplied 'French 75s'.
Early marks of two-man Vickers Light tanks (II to IV).
Single or double Scarff MG mounts on almost anything that had wheels.
Converted ex-aircraft Lewis LMGs (no shroud and added metal shoulder stock)
The quad Marlin MG mount and the RAF quad Browning MG mount.
Semi-auto and full-auto SMLEs with 30 round 'Trench' mags. Farquhar-Hill semi-auto rifĺes.
Webley revolvers with bayonets.
100 rd AA drum mags for Brens.
M1 Carbines.
Browning Auto 5 shotguns.
Armoured trains, including the miniature seaside ones.
4" Mobile Guns.
Morris SP Bofors Guns.
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Haven't got my copy yet but im told that Gigant was brought out to move things along/allow later units to be fielded(solving a problem one sees with vbcw).
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For those of you wishing to add Scarff rings and various forms of Lewis gun, with and sans cooling shroud to cars, trucks and buses, Eureka produce the lot in their Pulp range. They also make a rather nice COW gun, which I'm sure could make it's way into a pulp game.
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Saw those, should be good as realistically most of your patrols firepower will be coming from guns mounted on transports.
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Just got my copy of Operation Gigant...have to say i'm disappointed :? all round, the new British units are too out there for me, although I like the idea of a cadet army. in hand me downs, the IRA list makes no sense, all of them should have firearms, why would you ship over troops with improvised weapons!?
The whole thing felt very shallow with precious pages devoted to products we've already seen.
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Firearms were and still are difficult to obtain in Britain, especially so in wartime Britain. They were still a relative rarity amongst criminal circles so the prospect of waves of armed Fenians descending upon the shores was remote. The IRA's major attempt to gain small arms at the time was ultimately thwarted. In reality, their chosen weapon, one they would revert to again in the 1950s and would pass on to PIRA, their spiritual heirs in the 1970s was the bomb/IED. I doubt there's much of a game in blowing up civilians in Coventry, besides the Luftwaffe were more than up to that task anyway.
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Th thing is i'd assume that the IRA would theoretically get their firearms from 'home' I cant see them handing them over tot the home guard back in '39...
I just find it frustrating as the limitation makes fielding large patrols difficult.
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I don't think you have to follow this to the letter? I use it as an 'idea stirrer' and cherry pick out of it what you want. They will not cover everything and it's up to you what you field and how you use it.
I have a unit based on my own military experience of being a Gunnery Instructor at the Gunnery School at at Lulworth, Dorset. Part of the Bovington garrison , the cadre of top instructors there would have banded with their colleagues from the D and M School and Signals School plus the Armour Trials and Development Unit at Bovy to form quite some unit - with some very odd AFV's taking to the field if required. Also going to field an Army Cadet force with its Instructors and an OTC / CCF type unit from the local Grammar and Uni.
They will not be wearing roller skates. 😳
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Th thing is i'd assume that the IRA would theoretically get their firearms from 'home' I cant see them handing them over tot the home guard back in '39...
They didn't actually have that much in the way of weaponry, especially as 3 tons that was sent North was captured in '39 by the RUC. They had Tommy Guns, but where do you get .45 rounds, apart from attempting to take them from the National Army? They had Mausers, but where do you get 7.92mm? That leaves SMLEs and even .303 was not that easy to come by without a licence in peacetime. The 'Boys' didn't have the support they once had in the Republic, let alone anywhere else. Even in the Civil War shotguns outnumbered military weapons by 2:1.
Nevertheless what's the point of a 'what-if' if there's no "what if?" :)
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Could have been supplied by Germany. Could take out a Home Guard or Regular Army or a Territorial Army or RAF or RN armoury or Coast Guard unit who were armed - Police barracks too. In 1939 could probably still be supplied by USA?
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Could have been supplied by Germany. Could take out a Home Guard or Regular Army or a Territorial Army or RAF or RN armoury or Coast Guard unit who were armed - Police barracks too. In 1939 could probably still be supplied by USA?
Of course! The German record of getting anything into the UK undetected and/ or unapprehended during the war was unrivalled. You only have to think about all those highly succesful spy rings whose agents operated in a free and unfettered manner for upwards of a day or two.
I suppose they could have contacted someone in the Republic,saying something along the lines of 'we'll have a Heinkel drop a couple of containers' somewhere within a half mile radius of Hampstead Heath, could you get one of the lads to pop over from Kilburn?'
;)
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If someone insists they must field IRA, you could let them have one figure who can be called Liam Devlin. The British player then gets additional figures - his choice of either three armed spivs or three special branch officers.
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Love it ! 👍
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I like the historical info but...it is a German/Irish invasion of England lol A bit of suspension of facts is necessary from the outset.
On another note i've been cracking on with my minis, the ice cream suit Churchill will by my SiS agent Sidney Bristol, Churchill impersonator and agent provocateur.
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A bit of suspension of facts is necessary from the outset.
True, but that should still be less than that required to play Konflikt '47 all the same. ;)
Nice start on the figures, as long as you are enjoying it, that's all that matters. :)
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I might just use this thread for updates...but please, continue with the debate, historical facts and ideas, loving it.
Also Arlequin, what would happen to much older firearms? Say sniders, martini-enfields etc?
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I'd say a significant suspension of disbelief for a German/Irish invasion. If and that's IF I included IRA in a 1940s game, I'd limit it to a small cell of gunmen (or that man Devlin); I'd not make them super heroes and I'd balance it with a special branch team that would appear on their trail.
So, the IRA take the far bridge, the FJ the near bridge and it's how fast the Pz can drive up the road. You have full on Sealion action AND an IRA/ SB shootout at the far objective...
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Also Arlequin, what would happen to much older firearms? Say sniders, martini-enfields etc?
I doubt they'd have kept them. The IRA was awash with modern weapons during the Civil War, but after being told to 'dump arms' at its end, apparently retained just 850 or so of the rifles. I doubt they'd dump repeaters and keep single-shot antiques that corroded when they used cordite-filled ammo.
This might be worth a read: http://www.theirishstory.com/2015/05/21/weapons-of-the-irish-revolution-part-iii-the-civil-war-1922-23/#.WYeZZcbTW2c
Harry has the right of it for me, small groups, like a sort of reverso-world French Resistance unit (they have little or no local support if in the UK), aiding their allies, not providing the actual muscle. Half to all of the unit should be paid SB touts unknown to each other.
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Woops my firearms query wasn't specifically about the ira but england in general, would the governmeny have taken such stock or would they be considered to old?
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In the 1970s I was an Army Cadet in the Midlands. The rifles we had for target shooting were Martini-Henrys, Re-chambered but basically the same as 'Wot stopped de Zulus at Rorkes Drift' our instructor told us.
The British army is loath to throw things away, it just moves down the line.
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I saw a Martini-Enfield racked besides SLRs in a TA armoury c.1980. Our cadet weapons were SMLE No. 4 Rifles or the .22 No. 7.
British Army rifle stock across the UK 6th June 1940, was 1,150,000. All .303 but there are no details beyond that. Typically obsolete regular weapons were passed to colonial 'native' units or Commonwealth reservists, so you would expect UK stocks to be mostly SMLE No. 1, with a fair proportion of No. 3s (the P14).
Older weapons might be kept for old times sake, but ammunition would be hard to come by if it wasn't .303 and some older .303 conversions didn't survive for long using cordite filled rounds, they soon became 'shot-through' and often unsafe.
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That's interesting perhaps a militia made up of ex-colonial chaps? I can't see the government needing their weapons then.
I think out of all the lists the Home Guard List is possibly the best/most flexible, it shall feature an old soldiers squad made up of colonial veterans (gives me an excuse to go out and buy some empress stuff lol) also can the Home Guard list take chaplains/intelligence officers from the other books?
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That's interesting perhaps a militia made up of ex-colonial chaps? I can't see the government needing their weapons then.
They didn't post them direct to individual reservists. ::)
;)
They were passed to the appropriate government/administration and kept in armouries, the same as the good stuff and issued on mobilisation if they were that far down the proverbial barrel.
I also expect that ex-colonial chaps and others, who could afford to travel probably possessed far more interesting weapons themselves anyway, Big game rifles were quite hardcore items in themselves. I wonder what an Elephant Gun might do to a Panzer I, or how a Punt Gun might be used against a rifle section.
Certainly a variety of 'Nitro-Express' rounds (.450 - .70) were ordered via the War Office in the Great War, as the rifles firing them could pierce German body armour and 'loophole plates'. Fifty two such rifles were actually purchased by the WO in September 1915, on a proposed issue of two per battalion for selected battalions. Others were purchased privately.
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Lol, I meant more that the government might not bother/put in too much effort to collect up obsolete weapons, allowing ex-servicemen to just keep em.
What would have happened to shooting clubs?
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Sure, there were shooting clubs, even an NRA. The Firearms Act of 1920 shifted the right to bear arms to it being a privilege though and built on 'Emergency Restrictions' introduced for the Great War. To get a Firearms Licence the police had to determine you had a 'need' for one.
Before 1934, if you could demonstrate a need for a Vickers Gun, you could have one. Few people would be able to do that though. After 1934 machine guns and 'short shotguns' became illegal. At one time if you owned a pistol that never left your home, it didn't need to be licensed, but now it did.
So if you were a competitive shooter, or a hunter and similar, getting a licence was fairly simple. These were middle and upper class pastimes however. If you played golf with anyone with any influence, you would probably have little trouble either. If you were a working class bloke and especially if you were a trade union member, what was your need for a weapon? You see where I'm going here I'm sure; ordinary people didn't 'need' a gun for any lawful purpose.
Likewise 'automatic pistols' (anything that held and could cycle more than one round, so covered revolvers too) were restricted by 'need' in the same way. You could buy a single shot target pistol without a licence, but not a .38 Webley.
Shotguns and miniature rifles didn't require a licence back then however and when Home Guard recruits mustered, those were the weapons they brought from home if they had them.
Obviously criminals ignored all the above, but even so, why take the consequences of being caught with an illegal pistol when a shotgun wouldn't bring any heat? Using one in a crime was a different matter, but again the heavy sentences for doing so were quite a dissuader.
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Good of you to say, thanks. :)
I get distracted by petty details and then obsessively dig for definitive answers to the most mundane of questions. Still it soaks up the time I would have just wasted painting figures and playing games; oh wait...
;)
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Our friend Sgt Dixon is quite correct about the firearms legislation. It's also worth noting that firearms usage amongst criminals of the time was relatively uncommon. That's not to say that firearms were unknown to criminals or that offences were not committed with them but on the whole there seems to have been a sort of broad criminal consensus against their use, in particular against the police. So much so that a much later and infamous incident like the shooting of a Cumbrian PC in the mid sixties caused considerable outrage amongst the criminal community.
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To be fair, killing a police officer was a hanging offence, criminals would have been loathe to go that far.
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According to folklore, criminals in the UK only began regularly arming themselves after the Great Train Robbery. The robbers were given sentences that criminals with firearms would normally get, because of the outrage the establishment felt at the audacity of the crime. The underworld figured after this that if they were going to be sentenced as if they were armed anyway then they might as well be armed.
Not sure how true this is, but it is the 'folklore' version of the story.
The siege of Sidney Street back in 19-whenever-it-was created shock and uproar too. Way back then villains just did not shoot at policemen. Those were the rules, and everybody played by them. Unfortunately those Anarchists from the Russian Empire were used to dealing with Tsarist secret police rather than London Bobbies, and they didn't know the rules.
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When considering weapons available in 1939/40, remember the OTC (Officer Training Corps) units in large private schools. My research of Dorset on the late 1930s has come up with several schools that had OTC units. Possibly the largest OTC unit in the county was that of Sherborne Boys School, which could field a company strength uniformed force armed with SMLEs. They would have had a sizeable armoury, probably in excess of 120 rifles and possibly even including the odd machine gun for training purposes. These armouries would provide for a useful source of weapons, or even trained schoolboys!
This video clip of Sherborne School in the 1930s includes footage of the OTC (about 7 minuites into the clip):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4q8l7tHswc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4q8l7tHswc)
So for your Sealion games do some research of which independant schools were present in your area (boys schools associated with the church are a good starting point).
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Spot on with that as far as I am concerned. In my earlier post I suggested their use and you have just put the meat on the bones and therefore validated my plan so we think alike.
Another thanks to Arlequin for all the info.
I am currently on the ITP course at Combat Stress (treating PTSD ) and their are some old boys here who can back up the info of varied weapons still hanging around and also the wealth of `home owned` weapons e.g. campaign trophies - it has always and still goes on.
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Ask yourselves a question. If there were so many weapons just laying about in school armouries and the like, why did the government go to considerable lengths and expense to purchase non-standard .30 calibre rifles from the US to arm the LDV? Surely they would have picked up serviceable, indeed service rifles in a standard .303 calibre? The regular army was short of weapons, more so due to expansion than losses and that necessitated buying second rate rifles like the Ross from Canada (in .303) and serviceable but non-standard calibre P-17s from the US.
Why did the early LDV parade with shotguns, pikes and all manner of odd items, including pilfered/ requisitioned museum items until the P-17s, P-14s and Ross rifles were issued? Surely the cadet rifles would have gone to a desperate LDV first, if not the army, navy or RAF.?There were attendant issues with issuing the P-17, first and foremost adequate ammunition supply and of course the safety issue of a non-standard round that required the P-17s to be marked with red paint.
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Exactly.
Evening all. ;)
Equipment losses due to 'France' varied around 50-60%, so there was mostly enough to do another BEF's worth, but not the 55 division target. The U.S. weapons were originally for the Army, but one bright spark obviously pointed out that a logistics nightmare was in the offing, hence the switch to .30-06 weapons for the Home Guard for the most part and .303 to the Army.
In the likely invasion 'crust' areas .303 was retained when possible. Priority was also given to the main areas at risk elsewhere too. Capturing shot-down airmen in Bally-go-backwards could usually be achieved with shotguns and soft fruit however.
That said the image of HG wielding the WD half-pike owes more to expansion shortages in 1941, than to any in 1940, a period where for a time even 2" mortars became a 'company-level' weapon.
The Navy and 'fleet' RM units, along with the RAF, received surplus Lewis Guns and SMLEs; some ships had begun the war with Lee-Metfords still in their armouries.
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Yeah, the pike bit was a bit of a flourish I'll admit but there are numerous accounts of the LDV/ HG drilling with wooden rifles. Point being, there wasn't really a ready pool of weapons available for Blackshirts, fictitious IRA gunmen or particularly militant members of the Fourth Rotary International.
Alas for Warlord and their Blackshirt figures wielding what look like P17s, fascists and members of the communist party were both banned from the Home Guard.
Enough of being a killjoy. If it floats your boat, field it.
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Like VBCW, it is a What If? fantasy WWII, difficult to argue historically about that type of game.
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Like VBCW, it is a What If? fantasy WWII, difficult to argue historically about that type of game.
Yeah, I think we all get that. I suppose it's more of a conversation about the historical parameters of suspending disbelief.
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My box 'Royal Navy Section' arrived today, having a brief peruse over morning smoko three things stood out - Molotov Cocktails, why? my figures are heading for the Back of Beyond so grenades would have been more useful, still that's what files are for second - no bayonets, a little odd but I can live with (or without) them. Third shouldn't the P.O. have been armed with a Lanchester instead of a M1928?
Petty gripes perhaps and it won't stop me from using them, just my first thoughts.
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First contract for the Lanchester was June 1941, but there were some Thompsons in use in 1940. How many and who with I don't know. You won't struggle to find a publicity pic of a PO and three Ratings all carrying M1928s. Normally a PO would carry a pistol.
No bayonets is quite an omission and certainly the Navy wasn't short of No.36 Grenades.
Like VBCW, it is a What If? fantasy WWII, difficult to argue historically about that type of game.
Yet if you suggested 'your troops' might all have BSA-Howell converters and trench mags for their SMLEs, some VBCW players might become awfully clingy about history and what's believable.
;)
I'll happily contemplate a VBCW/Sea Lion scenario, even one based almost verbatim on LOTR's 'Cleansing of the Shire', but I don't see why 'historical' equipment or organisation etc., becomes such an issue for some.
How much is 'too much' history? When did 'research' become a dirty word? :)
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Down at a local club they call Bolt Action 1940K, perhaps this gives you an idea of part of Warlord's plan. Many players of BA have no interest or knowledge of history, this has become an abstract game. There is a good reason that BA spends the fist tranche of the book to a history of WWII. No other rule book I have does that.
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First contract for the Lanchester was June 1941
OK, That I did not know, now I have a little knowledge I'm happy, as my guys will be fighting bandits, Warlord Chinese, Red and/or White Russians, Germans, Turks, Dinosaurs, The Undead, Genestealers and anything else I can find it's not a big deal in the long run.
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My box 'Royal Navy Section' arrived today, having a brief peruse over morning smoko three things stood out - Molotov Cocktails, why? my figures are heading for the Back of Beyond so grenades would have been more useful, still that's what files are for second - no bayonets, a little odd but I can live with (or without) them. Third shouldn't the P.O. have been armed with a Lanchester instead of a M1928?
Petty gripes perhaps and it won't stop me from using them, just my first thoughts.
Bugger molotovs, they should have cutlasses!
Actually, for the storming of the Altmark in 1940, they were issued to the boarding party. Might just have been the last recorded use in action.
I always marvel at the things wargamers and manufacturers miss whilst focussing on exotica. I was converting some figures a few weeks ago and it occurred to me that I had never seen a representation of the EY cup discharger, used to fire Mills bombs from the SMLE. Not an uncommon item in either the Great War or the Second World War.
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Its funny us arguing over the accuracy of unit during a what if scenario indeed...but I find the historian in me likes an element of what if...but thoroughly grounded in reality at the same time.
I think the thompson is a better choice in that the lanchester dates the fellow and makes him unusable for earlier scenarios set in the interwar etc. I find it odd out of all the patrol list that the BUF seems to have access to the widest variety of equipment, firearms, improvised mortar, machine guns on vehicles and stolen anti-tank rifles...out of curiosity would the uniform that the command squad officer(pic related) be usable in a different scheme?
I ask after several ideas/observations coalesced into one, the buf uniform is based off fencing/training oufits, we talk about officer training/cadet units and then I see this scene...(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWZ_g15tHYk) why not make up a force based on a training academy?
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The officer looks quite usable for quite a few options, standing collar jackets, jodphurs and riding boots were pretty universal.
The Lanchester is the SMG most related with the RN and it was based on the MP-28, so not really much of a stretch all things considered. I originally thought they had them well before the war until I learnt better.
With most of the Home Guard heavy weapons also dating to 1941, allowing them but not Lanchesters and Stens, is a bit odd.
Mutton Chop actually do figures specifically for this military academy: https://youtu.be/8eD5z1VwDe8
;)
The EY cup discharger was still on the infantry WE in 1940-42, 3 per platoon and an additional 13 in the battalion HQ company. One guy in each section was still designated as the 'bomber' and supposedly expert in their use. I've never seen a figure with one.
British Infantry could and did mass their Brens in one ad-hoc gun section on occasion, you would also presume they might do the same with their rifle grenadiers, which would still leave a rifle section to assault. It's what they had done in 1917-18 after all and 'battle drills' were still formulated by individual regiments before 1944.
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The EY cup discharger was still on the infantry WE in 1940-42, 3 per platoon and an additional 13 in the battalion HQ company. One guy in each section was still designated as the 'bomber' and supposedly expert in their use. I've never seen a figure with one.
Like most things obsolete, the Australians used them through until 1945. Views varied as to their efficacy in the jungle. Fortunately it's an easy conversion. Glue section of suitably sized plastic rod or metal tube to end of rifle. Paint in the brass wire reinforcing to the forestock.
Interesting bit of kit the Lanchester. The crabs, the people for whom it was originally made hardly used any and substituted Stens when they became available. The navy liked them so much they kept 'em on up until the late '60s/ early '70s. I was slightly disappointed that the TARV boarding party came with Sterlings rather than Lanchesters.
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My uncle (who joined the navy in 1944 at age 15 and rated as Boy, 2nd Class) was issued a Lanchester for use on shore parties policing Indonesia in 1946. He was issued this weapon rather than the standard SMLE on the grounds that, during training, he had obtained his marksman ticket. The idea was that he was issued a SMG rather then a rifle because, being a marksman, he would be less likly to accidentally harm someone with his patrol's automatic weapon!
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Some years ago (decades now that I think about it) I managed to get the RNZEME museum Lanchester going again. It was much more fun to fire than Sterlings.
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Some years ago (decades now that I think about it) I managed to get the RNZEME museum Lanchester going again. It was much more fun to fire than Sterlings.
I can relate to that. Firing the F1, Australia's answer to the Sterling, was an utterly underwhelming experience. It was rumoured that a wet blanket was proof against one at 50 metres. Of course if you could actually hit a wet blanket at 50 metres with one then you you were doing bloody well.
The Australian Army was wise enough to issue platoon commanders, section commanders and scouts with M16s post the withdrawal of the Owen. F1s appeared for pay parades as a comic prop/ deterrent to an armed hold up. The chosen pay guards were issued with one and a magazine with half a dozen rounds that remained in their trouser pocket at all times. The prospect of killing some lunatic intent on depriving hundreds of diggers of their beer money being considered an infinitely less likely prospect than an accident with a weapon that, if dropped, might go bang.
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I was converting some figures a few weeks ago and it occurred to me that I had never seen a representation of the EY cup discharger, used to fire Mills bombs from the SMLE. Not an uncommon item in either the Great War or the Second World War.
Is that the thing where a little tubular cup fits on the end the of barrel that the grenade sits in? (Sorry, weapons aren't something I really know all that much about). Great War Miniatures do not one but two figures with them in their British Bombers pack.
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I was taught to fire off a few rounds with the Sterling to distract the target and then to throw the weapon at their head for the kill. I had heard that some old soaks knew how to configure the folding stock in such a way, that if it missed it would come back to their hand.
;)
Is that the thing where a little tubular cup fits on the end the of barrel that the grenade sits in?
That's the thing. 'EY' is Edward Yule, the guy who developed the original simple 'rod grenade' cup into the later type with a variable vent and used the dual-purpose (i.e. rifle or hand use) No. 36 Grenade. Officially it was the No. 1 Mk. I Discharger Cup.
It was very much still in use as a number of recommendations for it were issued in 1940, not least that training weapons should be bound with wire at the forestock and a bolt just behind the fore sight, to reinforce the weapon against the stresses of firing grenades from it and to reduce splinters should a blowout occur. In action the device was just fitted to any rifle.
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/gwfattachments/monthly_07_2011/post-23621-0-13046700-1310760344.jpg)
Note: It could not be fired from the shoulder, but could be fired horizontally if you had something substantial to brace the butt against. The No.68 AT Grenade was made to fit the 'EY' cup.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/A_member_of_the_Home_Guard_demonstrates_a_rifle_equipped_to_fire_an_anti-tank_grenade%2C_Dorking%2C_3_August_1942._H22061.jpg)
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I always thought the rifle was supposed to be upside down.
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Certainly if there was a risk of a blow out I'd rather have the thickest parts of the weapon furniture between myself and the barrel, as well as any bits of bolt heading towards the ground. The guy is actually using the variable sight on the weapon in the above photo though, it just doesn't stand out very well.
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As I recall, the US had a comically ineffective and impossible-to-aim rifle grenade as well, though I don't know the name of the thing. It could be shoulder-fired, but only if you were sitting down.
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In the U.S. Army they had an adaptor that fitted onto the barrel of the Springfield or Garand (and one for the M1 Carbine eventually*) that didn't interfere with normal use. This was combined with another that clipped over the grenade.
The assistant squad leader and the squad grenadier were issued with these, right up to the change to fire teams in the '50s, then it was one man per fire team until the M79 GL was issued around 1960.
How true it is I don't know, but junior officers that weren't liked, were not informed about the hefty recoil in training, which invariably knocked them on their backsides, if it didn't actually cause injury to the shoulder at the same time.
Like everyone else's rifle grenades, the weapon would be braced on the ground.
* When they tested the rifle grenade kit on the M1 Carbine the stock shattered at the hand grip.