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General => Announcements and forum stuff => Events and Conventions => Topic started by: Shipka on April 23, 2017, 11:28:13 AM
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whilst there were certsinly some excellent historical games, I have noticed a steady trend over recent years for the reviews to focus more on the fantasy/scfi , come on guys review the historical games and manufacturers
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Interesting point, mine goes the other way, went to two manufacturers to look at their 6mm/10mm fantasy to find neither brings them to shows... one mentioned how their 15mm range might be handy too (I'm looking for bigger beasties in larger scales to be massive beasties in 6mm), but they don't bring that to shows either.
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Maybe that just reflects the trends and tastes of the community as it expands? the hobby is opening up alot lately with players having 3 or 4 core games rather than just the one, so historical gamers might also dip into fantasy and the bigger audience of 40k and fantasy players are also buying into smaller fantasy and sci fi systems .
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This is not in reply to your observation about reviews, but on a similar vein about how the hobby has moved on.
After a very brief look around in between minding Jimbibbly's OshiroModelTerrain Samurai table I remarked to my friends how the hobby has changed dramatically in recent years.
Gone are the amateur looking trade stands where figures were displayed lined up on shelves and the figures were then purchased individually or you picked the figures from DIY storage boxes.
Now figures and games are packaged, displayed and offered for sale at high impact modern looking boutique stalls often allowing the opportunity to play the game whilst you browse.. Most of which I have never heard of, there was a time when I would recognise every company and the people manning the stands.
The shift in focus seems to have moved towards more fantasy and Sci fi games, many of which suit the new high impact well packaged advertising approach where you buy the game complete with rules, figures, painting guides etc etc.
These games also seem to attract the younger market who are looking for a way out of 40k. My nephew is a prime example. He came along yesterday to his first ever Salute, mid 20s, only ever playing Warhammer. He spent a long time wandering around and came back with Prodos Games Alien Vs Predator. He expressed interest in the Empress Minaitures modern range but was worried if he bought into it, his friends wouldn't want to play.
And finally when the likes of Fronk Rank Miniatures stop attending shows, I am not surprised Younger games are buying into the historical market.
Just my thoughts... :)
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Just my thoughts... :)
I totally agree about the bias towards non-historical gaming. My 16 year old son remarked that fantasy/sci-fi and that ilk were fast replacing historical games.
I have no problem with packaged games (or sci fi/fantasy for that matter) - just think Saga, Congo etc to name but a few but the emphasis is still on the individual to collect, paint and play his own factions and there is (almost) no push of a particular set of figures to play and enjoy the game with.
What I noticed about the packaged gaming on offer at Salute was the requirement to own a particular set of models to match the game. Thus there can be no crossover between games/gamers. Personally I think this is a bad thing as it encourages separation of gamers (especially at clubs) rather than inclusion.
Just my thoughts. :?
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Bijou games are the in thing as the people who are starting the new companies/kickstarters/start ups are of the younger generation and have had more access to that style of game (rules, figures and scenery all included; don't mix and match ::) ) and see that they are popular. The trend for smaller scale skirmish games is in its height as well.
It's also a lot easier to 'invent' your own world, fantasy or sci-if and produce things for it rather than researching for it to be correct.
Is this a good thing, maybe as it brings the GW crowd into the larger world (Malamute's nephew being a good example).
Games like Saga are a good cross over between the small scale sci-if/fantasy game and full in historicals so let's see more of them.
cheers
James
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Honestly the SciFi and Fantasy-Crowd shows more quality than these historical gamers. You can't bring younger gamers with computer experience to a table with a green piece of cloth and some boards as mountains. They want to see a detailed world in 6-54mm. And all the SciFi- and Fantasy-companies reacted better than the historical scene. And all these SciFi/Fantasy-companies have better web-sides. There are still sides on the net with unpainted or awful painted miniatures in the shops.
@Malamut: Front Rank is one good example of a bad shop. Unpainted miniatures. The miniatures need a good painter. They are beautiful but bad supported.
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Agree with most of the above.
Many of the 'traditional' historical manufacturers are still there, although some come and go - Bicorne were back, Front Rank were absent (and Redoubt, or did I just miss them?) But they're rendered barely visible with their small stands amongst the big money, professional-looking fantasy/Sci-Fi businesses: of which there seem to be more and more every year. Along with more and more MDF merchants, and more and bigger 'mega-stands' from the likes of Warlord and Wayland Games. And this year, of course - mats. Mats everywhere. A sea of gaily printed neoprene and velour. A hideous retrograde step IMHO. (If you want to play on a flat, printed surface, why not just stick to boardgames?) Meh.
Also agree we are witnessing the inexorable onward march of the 'packaged' game 'system' - rules, figures, dice, books, accessories, the T-shirt - gotta get 'em all... Is it the death knell of free thinking, creativity and invention in wargaming? Well, partly - for some. I guess it's very seductive to have everything ready assembled and packaged so all you have to do is hand over your money and play - although it's the antithesis of what wargaming is all about to me. But then against that, you also have the huge success of the recent swathe of new 'basic' wargames rules from Osprey, which are essentially old school wargames rules, being totally figures, terrain, accessory and dice agnostic. Then there are the halfway-houses like Studio Tomahawk with Saga and M&T, who very much package their rules, special dice, accessories etc - but also encourage use of any miniatures and terrain which look nice.
So there seem to be competing forces, as ever, within the hobby. Which frankly pretty much fit the pattern of the last 25 years: It's the GW 'let's professionalise this so we can charge more' approach (largely fantasy/sci-fi, but also aped by some 'historical' businesses like Battlefront and Warlord) - relentlessly promoting glossy, packaged 'entire' wargaming systems, to stitch your spend into their offer as much as possible. Versus the traditional approach which still largely frames the non sci-fi/fantasy half of the hobby, where people choose their own rules, figures, terrain and so on, and use their imaginations rather more. And ensuring their wargaming pounds (dollars and euros) are spread around many smaller businesses.
It's just a microcosm of the capitalist world, citizens - some big dogs trying to own the entire patch, and happy to eat the smaller ones... ;)
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Oh no! He's off on one about mats and cloths again. Somebody get him a drink! lol
Personally I don't like terrain boards all that much. Figures are always falling over on the uneven ground, the joins between the boards look as unsightly and jarring as any cloth terrain, and there is a certain in-built inflexibility to them that means you'll have to build another one soon, if you want to do a new scenario. They do mostly look nice, though, I'll give you that. But that ain't everything. Some folks just want to play, don't feel that every game has to be an award-winning masterpiece of art, and are prepared to compromise for that. Personally, I just hate the terrain-building aspect of the hobby, and will do almost anything to get out of doing it. If it looks like all my games are being played on a golf course then so be it. :)
I was talking with my nephew the other day, and we did between us decide we actually prefer the "golf course" aesthetic. I guess we're just incurable damn heathens.
Mind you, I'm mucking about at home with my friends and family, not putting on display games at a public event. If you're doing that, and I'm paying to see it, I expect you to pull out all the stops! ;)
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Some folks just want to play, don't feel that every game has to be an award-winning masterpiece of art, and are prepared to compromise for that. Personally, I just hate the terrain-building aspect of the hobby, and will do almost anything to get out of doing it. If it looks like all my games are being played on a golf course then so be it. :)
Goddam other people with their own points of view! Bugger! I keep forgetting about that lol
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For those of us of a certain age much the same can be said for the Model Railway hobby. When I was growing up, my father had to scratchbuild most of his colour light signals. Nowadays you can pretty much buy any specialist accessory down to what we termed 'rivet counting' accuracy. It was much the same parallel as ours - a hobby originally toy and fun orientated that became increasingly more specialised over the years, even down to niche periods and scales.
It's just the way of things I guess.
As for scenery and playing surfaces, despite my scenery building megalomaniacal tendencies I'm more of a cloths/mats person, simply for reasons of space. You could say I have epic battle tastes but skirmish games resources :'(
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Agree with most of the above.
Many of the 'traditional' historical manufacturers are still there, although some come and go - Bicorne were back, Front Rank were absent (and Redoubt, or did I just miss them?) But they're rendered barely visible with their small stands amongst the big money, professional-looking fantasy/Sci-Fi businesses: of which there seem to be more and more every year. Along with more and more MDF merchants, and more and bigger 'mega-stands' from the likes of Warlord and Wayland Games. And this year, of course - mats. Mats everywhere. A sea of gaily printed neoprene and velour. A hideous retrograde step IMHO. (If you want to play on a flat, printed surface, why not just stick to boardgames?) Meh.
Also agree we are witnessing the inexorable onward march of the 'packaged' game 'system' - rules, figures, dice, books, accessories, the T-shirt - gotta get 'em all... Is it the death knell of free thinking, creativity and invention in wargaming? Well, partly - for some. I guess it's very seductive to have everything ready assembled and packaged so all you have to do is hand over your money and play - although it's the antithesis of what wargaming is all about to me. But then against that, you also have the huge success of the recent swathe of new 'basic' wargames rules from Osprey, which are essentially old school wargames rules, being totally figures, terrain, accessory and dice agnostic. Then there are the halfway-houses like Studio Tomahawk with Saga and M&T, who very much package their rules, special dice, accessories etc - but also encourage use of any miniatures and terrain which look nice.
So there seem to be competing forces, as ever, within the hobby. Which frankly pretty much fit the pattern of the last 25 years: It's the GW 'let's professionalise this so we can charge more' approach (largely fantasy/sci-fi, but also aped by some 'historical' businesses like Battlefront and Warlord) - relentlessly promoting glossy, packaged 'entire' wargaming systems, to stitch your spend into their offer as much as possible. Versus the traditional approach which still largely frames the non sci-fi/fantasy half of the hobby, where people choose their own rules, figures, terrain and so on, and use their imaginations rather more. And ensuring their wargaming pounds (dollars and euros) are spread around many smaller businesses.
It's just a microcosm of the capitalist world, citizens - some big dogs trying to own the entire patch, and happy to eat the smaller ones... ;)
Hi Richard,
Yes you missed Redoubt because I spoke to Trevor and Susan. :) BTW Redoubt has revamped their old French Foreign Legion range and they looked superb!
Agree with your comments on the ubiquitous mats. Fine for a club game but IMHO not for an exhibition demo or participation game at one of the premier wargame shows and totally uninspiring. Thankfully there were also splendid terrain examples like the TooFatLardies, Oshiro and that wonderful Mosquito Coast game set in New Sweden.
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A hideous retrograde step IMHO. (If you want to play on a flat, printed surface, why not just stick to boardgames?) Meh.
It looks, from the photos, like the big, lavish, exquisitely detailed boards are in decline. Many look quite bland.
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I was really shocked by the lack of nice looking boards. More mats and cloths than ever before and this is supposed to be the premier wargaming event in the country :o
Not very inspiring at all. I went all that way and only took about four photos and two of them were Boards built by LAF members Jim's and my brothers one for crooked dice, I have seen them both before but I was surprised to see an actual terrain board that I took pictures for evidence. Jim's castle was lovely and the inside detail was amazing not sure if he has posted pictures on here but he needs to, we came away thinking that we should do a table just to show all the rest up but I am not sure we can be bothered to transport it all the way down to London twice in a year :o
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Do it Colin lol
Hi Richard,
Yes you missed Redoubt because I spoke to Trevor and Susan. :) BTW Redoubt has revamped their old French Foreign Legion range and they looked superb!
Agree with your comments on the ubiquitous mats. Fine for a club game but IMHO not for an exhibition demo or participation game at one of the premier wargame shows and totally uninspiring. Thankfully there were also splendid terrain examples like the TooFatLardies, Oshiro and that wonderful Mosquito Coast game set in New Sweden.
Ah - thanks Willie.
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we came away thinking that we should do a table just to show all the rest up but I am not sure we can be bothered to transport it all the way down to London twice in a year :o
Do it!!!
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Perhaps many people that make really nice boards do so for themselves and their friends and, thus with nothing to sell*, don't feel the need to incur the attention, hassle and expense of showing them (and in less than perfect lighting too!)?
If Salute paid expenses and a show fee, I'm sure there'd be quite a few presentation games that would become available! lol
Also, WRT packaged games, if most wargamers actually play on relatively simple terrain there is the argument that a board requiring hundreds of man hours to assemble might discourage buy-in by punters. If the potential punters know that they can't or don't want to mirror a game-on-steroids that is being advertised to them, then they and their wallets might walk by.
*with no disrespect to sellers, especially those that have terrain to sell!
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Do it!!!
DO IT!!!
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If Salute paid expenses and a show fee, I'm sure there'd be quite a few presentation games that would become available! lol
A bit like performers at other shows would receive. This sound like an interesting concept but very hard to arrange. Who to get and why, trying to avoid favoritism for people clubs or periods etc.
Oh and mac: DO IT!
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A bit like performers at other shows would receive. This sound like an interesting concept but very hard to arrange. Who to get and why, trying to avoid favoritism for people clubs or periods etc.
I'm under no illusion that it'd happen :D
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Also, WRT packaged games, if most wargamers actually play on relatively simple terrain there is the argument that a board requiring hundreds of man hours to assemble might discourage buy-in by punters. If the potential punters know that they can't or don't want to mirror a game-on-steroids that is being advertised to them, then they and their wallets might walk by.
I understand what you mean Steve but why advertise their games with painted figures then... It serves as an inspiration for those that want to improve the look of their boards.
I understand that not everyone is bothered by the look but it's the UK's premier show so people should make an effort and not just use it for free entry to the show.
cheers
James
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I understand that not everyone is bothered by the look but it's the UK's premier show so people should make an effort and not just use it for free entry to the show.
Totally agree. I was appalled by the frankly shoddy games tables. Yours and a couple of others were brilliant but the rest...... >:( >:(
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I understand what you mean Steve but why advertise their games with painted figures then... It serves as an inspiration for those that want to improve the look of their boards.
I understand that not everyone is bothered by the look but it's the UK's premier show so people should make an effort and not just use it for free entry to the show.
cheers
James
There are obviously sellers that go to the trouble (make the investment) and so I'm fearful of painting with a broad brush. I'd say though, that that for those sellers who don't make their own terrain, the cost of a realistic board must seem like a big chunk of real money to invest and earn a return on, especially if it's only for the one convention. Minis they'll have painted for the website images that will surely account for the bulk of their sales. It's already been observed that this Salute was fantasy/sci-fi dominated, genres that tend to require fewer relatively more expensive figures and a smaller board. The board is promotion/advertising/marketing and the economics of the fantasy/sci-fi genres do seem more likely to offer a better return on that spend. Thus, and going from the photos, most (yours definitely excluded!) of the good-looking boards were for games with a smaller table footprint. That leaves the clubs, groups of friends etc, to put on the spectaculars. If what I've written so far is correct then the question becomes: "what's the motivation for a non-seller to put on a spectacular?". Maybe (and I've never been a club member so I really couldn't know) the esteem from competing or free entry to Salute was enough of a motivation/reward. If it was, perhaps it isn't now?
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Haha! Jim, it seems that I was so dazed and confused by the end of the show that I walked up to your stall, babbled and didn't realise I was at your stand!!!
Right, Historical Vs Sci fi AND Fantasy.
I think there are several issues going on here, some of which have been touched on.
Firstly game scales. By this I mean large scale mass battle games vs skirmish etc. My reflection of Salute was that the ratios seemed similar. However, what I did notice was that the historical games were predominantly display games, as in games that a club had put on but that did not engage with show goers directly. More as a spectacle. Now, this on it's own is not an issue. But when you have a giant table, full of miniatures, it looks fantastic, but it can also look rather intimidating and unachievable for an individual. They also tend to be rule sets that are designed for the long play, hours long games. Again, this means that unless a spectator visits several times throughout the day, the amount of "action" on the table will be minimal.
These styles of games definitely have their place and the hobby would be poorer without them, but I think clubs need to consider how they can draw in people's attention and interact with them and engage with them. Some are good at this - there is no doubt of that. However, I was part of the randomplatypus team putting on games for Hasslefree. There were two historical tables near us. One was a participation game, full of energy, engagement and noises that suggested people were having fun, I believe that it may have been a Wings of War game. The other couldn't have been more opposite. Very little appeared to happen all day, they seemed to be enjoying themselves as a club, but there was little energy exuding from the table and it wasn't stunning enough in it's own right to draw people over to it.
I think there has been quite a change in direction for wargaming, there are parts of it that have been left behind. It now falls under the umbrella of "tabletop gaming" - which for me is quite indicative of where we find the hobby as a whole. People seem to be having less and less time and money to spend on their hobby. They still love it, but what they want back has changed as a result. In some ways this is no real surprise considering the economic climate etc.
Even looking at GW, it is clear to see that they too have identified that the format of their games was dropping in popularity. In short, I feel that mass battle games are currently on the decline in popularity, especially in 28mm. They are expensive, demand space and time that people are finding harder to come by.
I would say that the table top umbrella has come with the resurgence in popularity of board games, many straddle the line effectively such as Zombicide etc. And again, I think we can draw from this. Most board games can be played in an evening, either more than once or perhaps 2-3hrs of play. Enough to fit into a club night. They are relatively inexpensive when compared to investing into an army and rules set. And you can have several to suit varied tastes.
What games are we seeing that are popular and holding their ground? Saga, Guildball, Malifaux, Warmahordes, Wings of War, X-Wing - essentially games that can be played with small, easy to put together forces that are relatively inexpensive and playable within an evening at least once. Other systems such as Pulp Alley, 7TV etc also enjoy prolonged success for similar reasons. GW is now accommodating three different playing styles to their games to include the different scales and to open the door for skirmish level games again. Even more than that, they are releasing side games which are designed to be smaller scale skirmish games.
So, I would say at the moment, the demand appears to be very much on smaller games that most people can afford to buy into and that they can afford to assemble a force for and have the time to play games within and evening and have the space at home to do so. That for me was reflected in many tables at Salute.
We ran two 4x4 tables, one sci fi and one fantasy, both using home brew rules, designed purely for fun and for the rules to fit onto two sides of A4 - which is just the one sheet. Simple, fast and fun.
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Now I've never ventured to Salute, mainly because it would be an expensive day out, but I always look forward to seeing the photos. Before any of this topic started I remember being a little disappointed at a lot of what I saw and that seems to have been quite widespread amongst LAF attendees. There were some obvious exceptions with some lovely looking games but normally I'm "wowed" by a lot more.
I enjoy historical and sci-fi games and the Pulp genre blends in between. I enjoy seeing and playing all of them but I'd be very disappointed if one was entirely eclipsed by the other.
Having seen several years' worth of Gamer Mac and Andym's tables in the flesh I can say with considerable confidence that they are examples of the sort of thing that should be representing the hobby at the very highest level.
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I think it's disappointing that people expect all of the tables to be amazing if not stunning pieces of artwork. If that's what people feel wargames shows should be then I would stay at home if I were you . . . . .
For me, Salute and other wargames shows are not about "the best table" or all of the tables having to meet a certain standard. It's a celebration of the hobby, from it's roots in games being played with very limited pieces on the living room floor right up to things like diorama's and incredibly well painted miniatures and everything in-between.
There should be amazing pieces to inspire and set targets for people to aspire to. But there should also be games where people understand that the focus is on the game, not the board and the social interaction and enjoyment of sharing in our hobby with others.
You can't possibly get that from photos alone.
I have a load of photo's I have posted elsewhere. I'll happily add them up on here but to be honest, the level of moaning is starting to make me question if I should be bothered. :(
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That's a fair point about the social interaction and enjoyment, and you're right, that can't be conveyed in a photo. I didn't intend to come across as "moaning" and I'd bet many of the others expressing views didn't either. It's just a view taken, perhaps as a result of some of the spectacular tables from previous shows, that there didn't appear to be as many "wow factor" games from a visual perspective. No one said wargames shows had to be solely about stunning pieces of artwork but it is a part of it that does leave you with a good vibe when you see it, maybe inspiring you to start a new period or attempt something yourself.
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I was blown away by the amazing stuff on display, but it was my first ever salute.
I will say that it has got me more interested in historicals than i previously was, which makes me think this will probably go in waves. One year it's all sci fi and fantasy , then people get into that, then they get bored, then they see a historical board and say "hey, I want in on that" and two years down the line the historical showing is up.Gamers are nothing if not fickle.
I had my experience soured right at the end as i was taking my table down, when i found the sign that my bosses had put on it, on which they credited themselves with having come up with and developed the idea for the board despite it being entirely my idea
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If what I've written so far is correct then the question becomes: "what's the motivation for a non-seller to put on a spectacular?".
Kudos, pride, pleasure, a sense of achievement?
Yes, putting on a demo/participation game that looks good can be expensive but there are ways round it. The blank snooker baize mats could have a little texture drybrushed on, varying the colours, have all the bases match or be in a similar style, the presentation of the actual game i.e. Have a cloth that covers the supplied table, some presentable handouts etc.
I think it's disappointing that people expect all of the tables to be amazing if not stunning pieces of artwork. If that's what people feel wargames shows should be then I would stay at home if I were you . . . . .
I certainly don't expect all the tables to be works of art but the vast majority (from what I saw on the day and in various photo reports) were of an average or sub-standard for the biggest show in the UK. With Salute being such a big show and more none-wargamers than normal will come through the doors it needs to be the best representation of the hobby.
I get that the club game should be represented and agree that it should but a little bit more effort wouldn't hurt :)
Don't worry about babbling, I very nearly fell asleep on my chair twice towards the end of the day and only a nudge from my wife stopped me lol
cheers
James
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To be honest I don't think Salute would have that high a number of non-gamers. It might have a high number of gamers in transition from GW based games but it's not the sort of show you could wander past and be drawn into. Especially not without being at excel for another show.
Arguably local shows are more like that. My local show in Norwich is Diceni and situated in the forum atrium. It is therefore free. People have to walk through the show to get to the central Library or coffee shop or pozza express. Now that has entire families just stumble across it and get drawn in.
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Having seen several years' worth of Gamer Mac and Andym's tables in the flesh I can say with considerable confidence that they are examples of the sort of thing that should be representing the hobby at the very highest level.
Going to a wargameshow should also be an inspiration. And The both Scotsmen are the best inspiration. After seeing their work I always say, that I should get better and work harder on my skills. In the moment all the sci-fi and fantasy-tables are the best inspiration. The last years I can't remember so much historical tables except the Perrys, Frank&Frank from the Tactica or some Boards at the Tactica with these high quality like the sci-fi/fantasy-tables.
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Kudos, pride, pleasure, a sense of achievement?
Yeah, exactly James. What I'm questioning is why - based on the photo evidence - that factors such as the ones you raise no longer seem to have the weight they had before.
Perhaps they are now all less important than those flagged by McFonz:
games where people understand that the focus is on the game, not the board and the social interaction and enjoyment of sharing in our hobby with others.
Historically, as McFonz says, tables weren't realistic. As a kid with my copy of Wargames, I really wanted a sand table but it didn't happen and I mostly made do with books under a regular table cloth. More recently, I was surprised by how basic some club tables - including for 40k - seem to be. It can easily be argued that realistic tables have always been the exception.
Perhaps the UK hobby is trending away from realistic tables, cycling back to its roots.
Perhaps Salute is now predominantly enjoyed as if it is a big 'club' night (day) with the bonus of traders rather than the 'exhibition' that it has been. Without aiming to be contentious or otherwise critical, it could be said that LAF is on that same path.
IIRC a few year back I read somewhere that someone didn't enjoy LAF because it was all dessert and no main course. I took this to mean that LAF was (rightly or wrongly) viewed as prioritising the pretty and delectable small things rather than the more substantive elements and purpose.
Perhaps Salute is now more about the main course, which is obviously fine if it satisfies the economics and is what the majority of those who attend want. There'll just be less of the pretty pictures for those who don't attend and still look for their own pleasure in the photo reports. :)
Hopefully none of this comes across as moaning, as it's not. It's just discussion - part if the social experience - of the hobby that we all enjoy. :)
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Yeah, exactly James. What I'm questioning is why - based on the photo evidence - that factors such as the ones you raise no longer seem to have the weight they had before.
Perhaps they are now all less important than those flagged by McFonz:
Historically, as McFonz says, tables weren't realistic. As a kid with my copy of Wargames, I really wanted a sand table but it didn't happen and I mostly made do with books under a regular table cloth. More recently, I was surprised by how basic some club tables - including for 40k - seem to be. It can easily be argued that realistic tables have always been the exception.
Perhaps the UK hobby is trending away from realistic tables, cycling back to its roots.
Perhaps Salute is now predominantly enjoyed as if it is a big 'club' night (day) with the bonus of traders rather than the 'exhibition' that it has been. Without aiming to be contentious or otherwise critical, it could be said that LAF is on that same path.
IIRC a few year back I read somewhere that someone didn't enjoy LAF because it was all dessert and no main course. I took this to mean that LAF was (rightly or wrongly) viewed as prioritising the pretty and delectable small things rather than the more substantive elements and purpose.
Perhaps Salute is now more about the main course, which is obviously fine if it satisfies the economics and is what the majority of those who attend want. There'll just be less of the pretty pictures for those who don't attend and still look for their own pleasure in the photo reports. :)
Hopefully none of this comes across as moaning, as it's not. It's just discussion - part if the social experience - of the hobby that we all enjoy. :)
I'm sure it will come round again to dessert (pudding ;)) time at some point. Maybe this year was an exception as I didn't really see that many large displays of any sort although the landrover with the game inside was an interesting way of doing things 8)
I like to see inspirational games which is why I go to shows in the first place and with the www taking over much of the sales throughout the year there could be less of a reason to go to shows as all the figures you want can be seen without leaving your settee, bath, armchair etc :)
cheers
James
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Kudos, pride, pleasure, a sense of achievement?
...or simply "that is what this whole racket is about."
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I've never really got my head around the idea of the 'display game.' I haven't been to a big British show like Salute so I don't know what it's like there, but the ones at my local little shows were always perplexing. Almost without exception they were hosted by sullen, unresponsive types who resented your presence as an interference with their gaming. Can barely remember a single one that actually responded to questions about their game with anything more than an annoyed grunt.
I don't know why you'd put on a display game if that's your attitude. Why not just play at home with your mates? What with that and the constant assault of backpacks and B.O. when trying to look at the stalls, I stopped going to shows years ago. :)
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I am a lapsed gamer who has come back into the hobby after 6 years away. I am a bit nonplussed about the some of the strong words being used on this thread- I personally didn't see anything that I was "appalled" at.
Tables and layouts are going to vary year by year depending on the people putting on the games.
I used to be one of those people who were a bit intimidated by the big historical demonstration games but now I am more than happy to take the opportunity to throw some dice if I am invited to, especially if it is a new ruleset I am interested in.
I remember in the past there was often a closed atmosphere around some demo games, a lot of serious looking grumpy blokes standing about with arms folded who looked irritated if asked a question. I didn't see any of that, so that has to be an improvement?
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At the risk of sounding like a grumpy old git, I agree with Plynkes. I suppose I expect the "show" element too much - I want to see something that I cannot see down at the local games club/in my mates house. So a plain cloth with a few poly hills and a scattering of lichen is not really good enough. And worse, if the club members turn up and then proceed to play a game as though it is a club night - no welcome to spectators, no info, clique central. What's the point of attending, might as well just do it down the local club on Wednesday night!?
Never been to Salute, living in Cumbria it's a mammoth journey. I have been to Vapnartak in York a few times, possibly the biggest show in the north(?) and while I enjoy it, there is a lot of very average "display" games. With everything available online these days, I am really surprised that wargames shows keep going, I thought they would be doing a Woolworths by now.
On the subject of pre-packaged vs mix and match make your own. There's nothing stopping you buying into a company system and then buying your preferred figures. I do this with Saga - GB figures are pretty poop in my eyes so I buy others, I don't feel obliged to buy their figures because they distribute the game. It's all very well saying that it's a shame that people don't do their own thing, but let's be honest, most homebrew stuff ends up being from a very small subset of games - WW2, Naps, 100YW or a dungeon crawl (yawn).
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The first show (not Salute) I attended was about 35 years ago. I walked into a room with a big and to my mind very realistic looking ACW table surrounded by men 30 years older than me dressed in period uniform. My entry into the room stopped all conversation as the assembled players stared at me, as if I were an alien. I didn't understand then and I don't understand now. lol
Conversations with US and European gamers suggest to me that at shows the 'watched display' (rather than the 'participative display') is (was?) very much a U.K. thing. ;)
Edit: When I have been to Salute (not this year) I've very much enjoyed watching others enjoy the 'participative display' games, which do tend to be the smaller tables but has previously included some big spectaculars.
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I think there may be a discrepancy in what we class as display games! What I personally mean by a display game, is one that some has spent the time to do something above the regular Tuesday night game and it looks that wee bit special! Display games and participation games are not mutually exclusive terms! BLAM is the perfect example of what I think are display games. The guys that make the effort and bring stuff to that weekend, put on a great display game. ALL of the BLAM games are extremely fun AND extremely great looking games.
Now don't get me wrong, the big (mostly historical?) static display games have their place in the shows, I do love looking at all the detail and picking out all the wee vignettes/scenes the guys have created on these boards! And I also like seeing guys bring games that are just starting out and want to try and run a show game. It's just I feel(especially as we had travelled all the way down from Glasgow) that Salute is supposed to represent the best our country can offer and should inspire us all to do better, be it in the way of scenery, painting or game play. I just felt the balance was swayed more in the non-spectacle participation game.
Again though......maybe I've just been spoiled by BLAM, ::)
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This was my first Salute, in fact my first real big convention and I was in no way disappointed.
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I thought that there were some very nice looking historical tables at Salute.
The Tobruk table near to PSC was very good.
There was also a very good D-Day table with landing craft
Jimbibby's Japanese table is incredible.
There was a very nice table with Perry figures and boats (AWI?)
The FOW and Bolt Action tables were also quite good.
I did miss a big spectacular ancients game.
I went to Cannonade in Falkirk a couple of years ago and that was very good (possibly better than Salute)
I have not been to BLAM but the photos always look good.
Mick
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I think there may be a discrepancy in what we class as display games! What I personally mean by a display game, is one that some has spent the time to do something above the regular Tuesday night game and it looks that wee bit special! Display games and participation games are not mutually exclusive terms! BLAM is the perfect example of what I think are display games. The guys that make the effort and bring stuff to that weekend, put on a great display game. ALL of the BLAM games are extremely fun AND extremely great looking games.
I think BLAM differs because its a small group of folks who really appreciate the effort we all put in and actually get to play in pleasant surroundings (oops maybe I should edit 'pleasant').
I have just posted my thoughts on Salute here...
http://shedwars.blogspot.co.uk/2017/04/salute-17-my-haul-and-observations.html (http://shedwars.blogspot.co.uk/2017/04/salute-17-my-haul-and-observations.html)
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I think there may be a discrepancy in what we class as display games! What I personally mean by a display game, is one that some has spent the time to do something above the regular Tuesday night game and it looks that wee bit special! Display games and participation games are not mutually exclusive terms! BLAM is the perfect example of what I think are display games. The guys that make the effort and bring stuff to that weekend, put on a great display game. ALL of the BLAM games are extremely fun AND extremely great looking games.
Now don't get me wrong, the big (mostly historical?) static display games have their place in the shows, I do love looking at all the detail and picking out all the wee vignettes/scenes the guys have created on these boards! And I also like seeing guys bring games that are just starting out and want to try and run a show game. It's just I feel(especially as we had travelled all the way down from Glasgow) that Salute is supposed to represent the best our country can offer and should inspire us all to do better, be it in the way of scenery, painting or game play. I just felt the balance was swayed more in the non-spectacle participation game.
Again though......maybe I've just been spoiled by BLAM, ::)
Hear him! HEAR him!
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I'll admit, Saturday was so busy, I didn't get to see any tables. Jimbo's is always a cracker - so sorry I missed it. My tables fall into the Sci-Fi/Fantasy category - so I'm only adding to the problem :)
I'll chuck my two-penneth in about table quality.
Before Crooked, I put on spangly games with terrain from my collection. There wasn't just one motivation: showcasing creative modellers (and I've been very lucky to work with some very talented folks); a nice day out with my mates; enjoying some games; and more than likely a bit of showing off.
With Crooked, it's pretty much the same. BUT it's also clearly a means to showcase 7TV to new people - you are not going to get a much better or bigger opportunity than Salute to be honest.
I'd hope it also gives something back to existing customers who get a chance to play on some nice tables - but I may be kidding myself. I've tried bigger, longer games - but we could only ever get a couple of games in during a day, and they often became a creche for dad's looking to run off and have a shop!
We moved to smaller 2x2 tables and quick play games, simply to give more folks a chance to get a game. My refs are running 6+ a day (10 in one case - but he was a bit mad).
I'm an unashamed terrain nut, so I have a modest collection. I love a tiny world for my tiny toys to live in. The arguments about cost are totally valid (believe me, my poor wife and ex-business partner vocalised them), but they seem to fall on deaf ears most years :) - and I just use it as an excuse to get another nice table.
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Then again games like this really make my day... very inspiring. Perhaps too inspiring according to the Mrs... :P
Spoke to Michael and Jesper and they both gave me a very friendly welcome and took their time to explain the whole thing.
http://dalauppror.blogspot.be/
Actually won a few trophies...
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I love a tiny world for my tiny toys to live in.
This is really the whole nub of this argument (which we have every year, without fail... ::))
Either you care about the aesthetics, or you don't.
If you don't, and it's all about 'the game', then there's probably not much that's going to convince you otherwise.
But you should care, because miniatures wargaming is by definition a VISUAL hobby in three dimensions. Therefore the 'it doesn't matter what it looks like' argument is a dud.
Because if it didn't matter what it looked like, none of us would bother playing with representative model figures at all. We'd just use chits on a paper map...
Why have tiny toys but not bother with a tiny world for them to live in? Seems peculiar to me, but there you go. We all prize different aspects of the hobby, obviously.
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Why have tiny toys but not bother with a tiny world for them to live in? Seems peculiar to me, but there you go.
Does seem like we're going around in circles here. But as I already stated, not all of us agree that aesthetics are more important than practicality, and some of us are willing to compromise one for the other. It really isn't that difficult to comprehend, surely? I don't think in the real world that it is the binary dichotomy of "masterpiece of art and engineering vs. flat board game with counters" that you are painting it as. There is a whole spectrum between those two things.
(And as already stated, if you are putting on a show for the public then that's a different matter, here I'm talking purely about the private world my own little men live in at home. :))
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I can understand your disappointment Richard, but to be quite honest purpose built boards seem like a real luxury for those with space.
Last time I went to Salute they had this huge "a bridge too far" board. o_o When I passed by it I thought... boy those people are crazy. ;)
But really, the fact that folks are buying gaming mats is a huge step from where I started off... a ping pong table set-up in a friends living room.
Though I have to admit, the thing that got me into wargaming in the first place was a really nice display table with beautiful AWI 28mm minis that I stumbled on at a local fair.
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I wasn't particularly disappointed Ray. There were plenty of good looking games there. And not so many 'club night' ones as in previous years :)
Does seem like we're going around in circles here.
The curse of internet conversations :)
Does seem like we're going around in circles here. But as I already stated, not all of us agree that aesthetics are more important than practicality, and some of us are willing to compromise one for the other. It really isn't that difficult to comprehend, surely?
No, that's not difficult to comprehend, Dylan. If someone doesn't have the space, money, time or wherewithal to build and store terrain boards, or views them as limiting, that's perfectly understandable.
What I don't understand is the people who clearly DO value the aesthetics of wargaming - because they go to the time and trouble of painting and basing their miniatures very nicely - but then claim they don't care about the aesthetics when it comes to terrain and scenery because the game's the most important thing. Which is a bit like saying I like to have lovely furniture in my living room, but I don't care about how the room is decorated as long as I've got somewhere to sit.
Anyway... ever decreasing circles... :)
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Surely it's not time for 'that' argument, didn't we just have it?
Each to their own :D
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If you're just some guys rocking up to a show like Salute and your game isn't participation (And I mean real participation, not 'everyone who starts at 10.10 is still playing at break down and they all just happen to know you') then your table had better look 'great', because otherwise there's literally no point in your game being there.
If however your game is full participation, anyone wandering by can get a game, multiple games played during the day etc, then your table only needs to look decent. If it also looks great then that's a bonus.
Participation games are already doing their job, they are getting people gaming, keeping people occupied, getting them excited about actually 'doing' things in the hobby not just wandering around a giant shop. Non-participation games job is singular, wow passers by.
I would go further too. I would send a couple of Warlords around all non-participation games and if they don't pass muster, then that club/group/trader/whatever gets put to the bottom of the list for next year.
If you want to talk about the difference between sci-fi/fant and historical, it's that, far more than quality of terrain. You hardly ever see non participation sci-fi fantasy games being put on.
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Non-participation games job is singular, wow passers by.
I would go further too. I would send a couple of Warlords around all non-participation games and if they don't pass muster, then that club/group/trader/whatever gets put to the bottom of the list for next year.
My table is also to help promote my wears and terrain building for commission work but I think (not sure though) that I'm an exception to the rule.
I like the 'vetting' idea though. As has been mentioned, and will no doubt be done so again, it is the biggest/premier show in the UK.
cheers
James
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I'll admit, Saturday was so busy, I didn't get to see any tables. Jimbo's is always a cracker - so sorry I missed it. My tables fall into the Sci-Fi/Fantasy category - so I'm only adding to the problem :)
I'll chuck my two-penneth in about table quality.
Before Crooked, I put on spangly games with terrain from my collection. There wasn't just one motivation: showcasing creative modellers (and I've been very lucky to work with some very talented folks); a nice day out with my mates; enjoying some games; and more than likely a bit of showing off.
With Crooked, it's pretty much the same. BUT it's also clearly a means to showcase 7TV to new people - you are not going to get a much better or bigger opportunity than Salute to be honest.
I'd hope it also gives something back to existing customers who get a chance to play on some nice tables - but I may be kidding myself. I've tried bigger, longer games - but we could only ever get a couple of games in during a day, and they often became a creche for dad's looking to run off and have a shop!
We moved to smaller 2x2 tables and quick play games, simply to give more folks a chance to get a game. My refs are running 6+ a day (10 in one case - but he was a bit mad).
I'm an unashamed terrain nut, so I have a modest collection. I love a tiny world for my tiny toys to live in. The arguments about cost are totally valid (believe me, my poor wife and ex-business partner vocalised them), but they seem to fall on deaf ears most years :) - and I just use it as an excuse to get another nice table.
Cudos to you. The boards you've financed are lovely.
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Having just hauled 15 x 2' baseboards together with a walled farm ,trees, hedges and approx 500+ 28mm landsknecht figures.
Its all about logistics,being in effect a one man band with two student sons and nephew as itinerant gamers / umpires its utter madness to put a game on @Salute.
This was the second game we had put on at Salute in the last 6 years, the first being 15mm Sci Fi.
It was a badly attended participation game , but we played 16+ turns , I spoke to approx 60 people ( nearly lost voice, much to my sons' amusement) .
Having been to the odd Salute on and off since the Kensington days I thought the games in all Wargaming sub genres were a mix of the brilliant over all, great terrain -poor figures,poor terrain - great figures, all about the game not the visuals and of course the advert games where the money is.
What I have noticed over the last few years is the arrival of the intimate game, probably from America very little manoeuvre and but action from the start.( It seems a cheap, quick and easy option)
Interesting conversation with my youngest son on the way home who said we should do a small size game with a mat and raised terrain.
His logic was that it would be a lot less stress and we could travel by train.
I wonder if some of the critics realise the cost of attending Salute with a game - petrol, parking ,tolls,food,accommodation.
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My table is also to help promote my wears and terrain building for commission work but I think (not sure though) that I'm an exception to the rule.
I like the 'vetting' idea though. As has been mentioned, and will no doubt be done so again, it is the biggest/premier show in the UK.
cheers
James
Your table was fantastic. I can say that as someone that didn't realise it was yours until I got home and looked on here on Sunday. However Arty is right. As beautiful as it was, to me as a passer by, it would have made no difference if it was static or a game was going on on it. To be honest I don't even know that. I looked at the terrain and knew that it would be of interest to some of the folk I know elsewhere on the interwebs and picked up a couple of your product hand outs.
Now, I didn't have time, but as a punter, if I had been drawn into a participation game then I would have spent more time looking at the terrain, interacting with it due to moving troops in and out of it, and more likely to have made purchases on the day than leave it and possibly forget on the way home.
That is only my view though, and it certainly does not detract from the quality of your terrain and the table you built using it.
I am with Arty though. The table next to us this year felt like it drained the life around it. It looked fine, but if you were a punter, you wouldn't stop and look at it for long because the speed of progression meant you could return to it in a couple of hours and still not see any drastic progression. It wasn't a spectacle and it wasn't interactive in any way that appeared from the outside.
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If you're just some guys rocking up to a show like Salute and your game isn't participation (And I mean real participation, not 'everyone who starts at 10.10 is still playing at break down and they all just happen to know you') then your table had better look 'great', because otherwise there's literally no point in your game being there.
If however your game is full participation, anyone wandering by can get a game, multiple games played during the day etc, then your table only needs to look decent. If it also looks great then that's a bonus.
Participation games are already doing their job, they are getting people gaming, keeping people occupied, getting them excited about actually 'doing' things in the hobby not just wandering around a giant shop. Non-participation games job is singular, wow passers by.
I would go further too. I would send a couple of Warlords around all non-participation games and if they don't pass muster, then that club/group/trader/whatever gets put to the bottom of the list for next year.
If you want to talk about the difference between sci-fi/fant and historical, it's that, far more than quality of terrain. You hardly ever see non participation sci-fi fantasy games being put on.
that sir is true gold and I concur completely well done,
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I put together a montage of the photo's and some footage from Salute.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcWyqpXLYJE&t=2s
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That was good, there were some games that I don't think I've seen. What was the sci-fi corridor game and the one that looked like a Dutch town square? Thanks for putting it up.
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I'm not sure which game you mean by Dutch town square . . . if you give me a rough time on the vid to look I will check and see if I can recall where it was from.
The space ship corridor was one of our two participation games. It is fantastically built, it really is brilliant. Very detailed.
I apologise to the powers that be for linking to another forum, (please remove if not allowed): http://www.randomplatypus.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2545
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I apologise to the powers that be for linking to another forum, (please remove if not allowed): http://www.randomplatypus.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2545
It's allowed :)
We're very inclusive and broad-minded here. Except where the quality of display games is concerned ;)
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;D
As I said originally, I think all the variety is good. I just don't see the point in tables that offer no form of engagement, either as a top notch display/demo table or as a participation game. It's a show, interaction and engagement should be the main aim.
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I'm not sure which game you mean by Dutch town square . . . if you give me a rough time on the vid to look I will check and see if I can recall where it was from.
The space shit corridor was one of our two participation games. It is fantastically built, it really is brilliant. Very detailed.
It's about 2:36 in, it looks pretty interesting.
The sci-fi corridor looks brilliant, do you have any more shots of it?
Thanks
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It's a show, interaction and engagement should be the main aim.
Well, we'll just have to agree to differ :)
Interaction and engagement are, I completely agree, highly desirable.
But the alternative view is: It's a show - show should be the main aim.
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Well, we'll just have to agree to differ :)
Interaction and engagement are, I completely agree, highly desirable.
But the alternative view is: It's a show - show should be the main aim.
I think you miss my point.
If you have a large static/demo/display game (use which ever term you like), there needs to be an expectation that it engages with the people at the show. So, it needs to be good, it needs to be manned by people willing to field questions about the table - as much if not more so than the game being played upon it, and provide something for people to interact with. Largely the ones I have seen that have been done well are those like Jim's or the Waterloo table from a few years back with guys in suitable attire describing the historical moments in the battle represented in miniature.
If you just have a bunch of club guys playing a game, not really interested in "people" - they may as well be doing it in their normal club meet location.
If it's a participation game then I think you can forgive people a little of the spectacle for the trade in direct interaction.
I think it's important to remember that what sells terrain are figures and rules.
You see things go in trends, SAGA has seen an increase in Dark Age sales across the board. There are plenty of other examples like it such as Bolt Action etc.
So as I said, it's all needed. But I think one thing has been missed off in this thread, and that is the awards that can be won. Years ago, there was no distinction between what I would call a "business table" - one paid for by a business or one made and put together by a club. For the last couple of years at least, they have made a distinction and there is a "best trader sponsored table".
And as I said before, people need to take into account a great number of factors and try to factor out the slightly snobby approach. My table was by no means stunning:
(http://i.imgur.com/WlZhPqw.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/w6YR6fZ.jpg)
It is only the 2nd table I have ever built. The first is on here in the sci fi section - and that was four plus years ago now. I didn't put that table together to be a "spectacle", nor did I want it to look crap. But I wanted to push myself to see what I was capable of and if I could learn more. I learnt a lot, like how I would do almost everything differently next time. I also have constraints that are dictated to me such as anything I make has to be able to fit into a Fiat Punto. I'm not a trader so I haven't hired a van. I make no money from this so I spend the hobby cash I put aside on it. I work full time so it got made, to the detriment of my waiting armies, with time I have spare from other commitments etc - it's not my job etc.
That's what club games should be. IMHO.
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It's about 2:36 in, it looks pretty interesting.
The sci-fi corridor looks brilliant, do you have any more shots of it?
Thanks
I don't but there are more in the link I posted earlier of the build in progress: http://www.randomplatypus.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2545
Re the Dutch Town square, I don't recall who it was by I am afraid, I do remember that it was part of a much larger game with this on one edge. Someone else out there may be able to shed more light on it perhaps?
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Thanks, I do really like that sci-fi set up.
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Well, we'll just have to agree to differ :)
Interaction and engagement are, I completely agree, highly desirable.
But the alternative view is: It's a show - show should be the main aim.
Out of interest, what percentage of the 6000 attendees do you think travelled to London and paid £12 to watch someone else play a random wargame?
If your answer has 2 digits in it, you are wrong.
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Out of interest, what percentage of the 6000 attendees do you think travelled to London and paid £12 to watch someone else play a random wargame?
If your answer has 2 digits in it, you are wrong.
Must be nice to so certain about things :)
I couldn't agree more though. I doubt anyone goes to a show hoping to see two blokes push averagely painted figures around on a piece of cloth with a few desultory bits of scenery, whilst mumbling to each other about rules arguments. It's shocking that you still see this at Salute and other shows. My point exactly.
Wargamers go to wargames shows for shopping and inspiration. (And to meet up with other wargamers and friends, obvs).
To me, and I think many other people, inspiration means eye candy: beautiful, visually impressive or dramatic games to marvel at and admire, and maybe take something away from to try to emulate at home. Almost everybody loves to see these show games, however much they may say otherwise. Because it's the core, inherent visual appeal of wargaming - a hobby hugely dependent on the motivating allure of eye candy. Check out any magazine, ruleset, piece of product packaging to see how many crappy looking figures and tabletops are used to seduce and inspire potential customers. You won't find any.
I get the alternative point of view though, which is that eye candy is not the be-all and end-all. For some people, testing out new rules, chatting to other gamers about scenarios and so on, is just as much part of the show experience. Some participation games will therefore prioritise the interaction, engagement and experience over the visual appeal. Fair enough. In an ideal world, I'm sure what most punters would want is a game that does both. Which is indeed what most people laying on games manage to achieve: Something that looks wonderful but also offers the involvement and interest of the second category. There were many examples of this at Salute. But for me, there were also too many of the second category of games where little effort had gone into presentation and visual impact. I think we're just arguing about where the right balance lies and reflecting on the direction of travel.
What nobody pays to see is the aforementioned piece of cloth - however nattily printed - with minimal effort put into figures and terrain n top of it, and where the people involved simply appear to be playing a game they could have played on a wet Tuesday night down at the club. But you still see these games at shows, including Salute. No eye candy and no engagement and interaction with show visitors either.
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Did you really just use "obvs"? lol
I think you're right about the argument being one of balance. I can see both sides too, I'd be unlikely to stick with wargaming were it not for the interaction, engagement and experience though I'd likely still collect and paint a (much) more limited range of figures because of the visual element. My collection of 54mm Inquisitor figures is testament to that.
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Did you really just use "obvs"? lol
I am down with the Kidz mate. Innit.
(I draw the line at LOL though. Never LOL if you can help it).
:D
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I am down with the Kidz mate. Innit.
(I draw the line at LOL though. Never LOL if you can help it).
:D
I totes agree.
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I totes agree.
Obvs
LOL
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Obvs
LOL
Wicked cool :D
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It's about 2:36 in, it looks pretty interesting.
The sci-fi corridor looks brilliant, do you have any more shots of it?
Thanks
There are more shots here on Manatic's blog - which also suggests there were plenty of historical games to be had. . . . https://dawnofthelead.com/2017/04/28/salute-2017-part-2/
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Some lovely photos there. The close ups of the sci-fi corridors were excellent, thanks. I'd love to do that myself as a modular set up.
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(http://i.imgur.com/WlZhPqw.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/w6YR6fZ.jpg)
This is an excellent table.
Good quality, neat, well presented, playable, versatile and there's a scratch-built focal point. It's clearly been though out, planned and well executed.
It shows off all the good things about miniature war gaming that I enjoy. It's a well realised world for the toys to play in and there's a game going on.
It makes me want to play on it.
It's streaks ahead of the cloth and mdf brigade.
I agree with Richard that war gaming is a visual hobby but that doesn't just mean huge and/or elaborate. Looking good is the important thing.
I appreciate the effort people go to and value that most highly. Actual skill level is secondary.
I like it here because people make the effort.
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Thanks Matakishi, from you that is high praise indeed.
Being from an artistic background I am currently in the "loathing it" stage and it remains in my car whilst I get over myself. ;D
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For someone who complains that it shouldn't matter about terrain, you do make a mean board! ;)
I love the height of the main cliff. There's just enough terrain to be really interesting and enough space to get some big units t manoeuvre about! Your board tells a story of a forest at the edge of the mountains, with possible lurking monsters in that big cave! It just adds that the playing experience to know your gaming in some part of some world! There's actually something to fight for!
If I had seen the likes of this quality at Salute, I wouldn't have complained! :-*
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Must be nice to so certain about things :)
I couldn't agree more though. I doubt anyone goes to a show hoping to see two blokes push averagely painted figures around on a piece of cloth with a few desultory bits of scenery, whilst mumbling to each other about rules arguments. It's shocking that you still see this at Salute and other shows. My point exactly.
I must have missed the pics with tables like that? I didn't see any personally at the show on my walkaround?
Wargamers go to wargames shows for shopping and inspiration. (And to meet up with other wargamers and friends, obvs).
To me, and I think many other people, inspiration means eye candy: beautiful, visually impressive or dramatic games to marvel at and admire, and maybe take something away from to try to emulate at home. Almost everybody loves to see these show games, however much they may say otherwise.
People are lying about loving to see show games? And I'm not over 60 so no, I don't see a table with 1200 Napoleonic troopers and think 'That's definitely something I want to do with my retirement'. I'm sure 'some' people do, I am not as sure as you seem to be that those people are in great numbers.
Most people who go to Salute are already into wargaming. There's not a lot of marathon runners wandering by and enticed by the smell of backpacks and beards to suddenly take up pushing tiny men around. Most people already into wargaming already know what they like. I'm not into historicals, no amount of amazing scenery is going to make me get into historicals. I can admire the table for a few minutes, and then I will move on and forget it existed. I suspect I am far more the average Salute attendee than the one you are describing.
Because it's the core, inherent visual appeal of wargaming - a hobby hugely dependent on the motivating allure of eye candy. Check out any magazine, ruleset, piece of product packaging to see how many crappy looking figures and tabletops are used to seduce and inspire potential customers. You won't find any.
Yes, because those are adverts. Their job isn't to get people into wargaming, nobody is buying a wargaming magazine or ruleset who isn't already into wargaming. Their job is to sell product.
I get the alternative point of view though, which is that eye candy is not the be-all and end-all. For some people, testing out new rules, chatting to other gamers about scenarios and so on, is just as much part of the show experience. Some participation games will therefore prioritise the interaction, engagement and experience over the visual appeal. Fair enough. In an ideal world, I'm sure what most punters would want is a game that does both. Which is indeed what most people laying on games manage to achieve: Something that looks wonderful but also offers the involvement and interest of the second category. There were many examples of this at Salute. But for me, there were also too many of the second category of games where little effort had gone into presentation and visual impact. I think we're just arguing about where the right balance lies and reflecting on the direction of travel.
What nobody pays to see is the aforementioned piece of cloth - however nattily printed - with minimal effort put into figures and terrain n top of it, and where the people involved simply appear to be playing a game they could have played on a wet Tuesday night down at the club. But you still see these games at shows, including Salute. No eye candy and no engagement and interaction with show visitors either.
Again, I must have missed those. The most boring tables to me were the big fields with hundreds of identical looking historical minis on but I didn't see anyone who'd just thrown some scatter terrain on a sheet or something.
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Myself and daughter had a very nice game of Dragon Rampant Frostgrave on whar was supposed to be a demo game table,
the two gents were more than happy to help and then very gently took the piss out of me as my daughter started ti rip the barbarian army I had seconded apart with her Gnoll army!
A good time was had by all and they were willing to talk through Frostgrave with us
so not all demo games are a bad thing, they were more than helpful and friendly
Glen
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I thought that there were some very nice looking historical tables at Salute.
The Tobruk table near to PSC was very good.
There was also a very good D-Day table with landing craft
Jimbibby's Japanese table is incredible.
There was a very nice table with Perry figures and boats (AWI?)
The FOW and Bolt Action tables were also quite good.
I did miss a big spectacular ancients game.
I went to Cannonade in Falkirk a couple of years ago and that was very good (possibly better than Salute)
I have not been to BLAM but the photos always look good.
Mick
@ Mick
You must have missed To ths Strongest! They played a huge Raphia battle.
http://bigredbat.blogspot.be/2017/04/in-action-shots-of-raphia-at-salute.html
And there was also a Society of Ancients game (among others)
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I think demo games are a very good thing :)
Nice looking demo games, even better.
I don't see a table with 1200 Napoleonic troopers and think 'That's definitely something I want to do with my retirement'. I'm sure 'some' people do, I am not as sure as you seem to be that those people are in great numbers.
I didn't say that at all lol
Napoleonic battles leave me as cold as they evidently do you. Can't stand them.
My points were nothing to do with fantasy versus historical or young people versus old people, or however else you'd like to categorise the wargaming population into oppositional groups.
My point is that shows aren't what they were, with seemingly fewer tables with out and out eye candy levels of presentation. Which to me, is a shame, but obviously not to everybody. Fair enough :)
The inexorable march of the printed mat does not seem to me to bode well for the future of visually inspiring wargames. And there were a LOT of those at Salute this year.
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For someone who complains that it shouldn't matter about terrain, you do make a mean board! ;)
I love the height of the main cliff. There's just enough terrain to be really interesting and enough space to get some big units t manoeuvre about! Your board tells a story of a forest at the edge of the mountains, with possible lurking monsters in that big cave! It just adds that the playing experience to know your gaming in some part of some world! There's actually something to fight for!
If I had seen the likes of this quality at Salute, I wouldn't have complained! :-*
Yes, for the record McFonz's table was definitely not one I'd seen and been disappointed with, it's a very good table and I'll have it if you don't want it! lol
Before I'd realised it was yours I'd already been drawn to the cave! It's got me thinking about how I do my Old West silver mine now. I also rather like the woods.
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I think demo games are a very good thing :)
Nice looking demo games, even better.
I didn't say that at all lol
Napoleonic battles leave me as cold as they evidently do you. Can't stand them.
How very dare you sir. I happen to like the grand tactical challenges of the Napoleonic table! Nor do I consider myself an old duffer either. lol
It'd be bloody boring if we all liked the same thing.
"Another game of Broad Appeal Period lads?"
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@WimVdB
Sorry, I must have missed the Raphia battle. :o
It certainly is a spectacular ancients battle. lol
Mick
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It'd be bloody boring if we all liked the same thing.
"Another game of Broad Appeal Period lads?"
At least I wouldn't get roped into making all the sodding terrain for different periods/themes if we played the same shit all the time lol
cheers
James
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At least I wouldn't get roped into making all the sodding terrain for different periods/themes if we played the same shit all the time lol
cheers
James
You love the challenge! And the deadlines :D
Have you started your three BLAM tables yet?
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You love the challenge! And the deadlines :D
Have you started your three BLAM tables yet?
Years ago smart arse ;D
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Years ago smart arse ;D
We've seen those, we need tenth anniversary versions!
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We've seen those, we need tenth anniversary versions!
No, we don't...
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No, we don't...
lol it's always a pleasure to play on a Bibbly Board tm
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Just to come back to the original question, I did a quick count through the Salute catalogue and there were 26 games described as fantasy or sci-if and 37 described as historical. The numbers might have evened up a little as Spartan Games were listed under one entry but had several tables, but I don't quite see the end of historical gaming yet. 8)
There's also quite a split in style of company, (wild generalisation looming, engage lower gear) where sci-if and fantasy companies tend to do rules and figures and their games are commercial sales pitches. Most historical companies tend to do figures only and individuals do rules so historical games aren't often selling a specific product but a club or group pushing the concept of gaming or a particular period. That may make the sci-fi/fantasy element a bit more professional and the historical chaps more 'relaxed'? That's no excuse for ignoring the public but might explain why fantasy/sci-fi appears to dominate?
Can't really comment on overall quality of games, our table was sufficiently busy that I doubt I saw 20% of the show. But I enjoyed what I saw and some of it was quite inspiring.
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So....does it matter? Surely we want more people gaming! The more we have people gaming the more eye candy we get to see! Historical, fantasy or sci fi, I like all of it! Anything that provides me with inspiration, I appreciate!
So how do we make everyone happy? How do we inspire people to take up wargaming? Does not having a miniature world for our figures to fight in, not help bring more of them into computer gaming, help?
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I'd like to add that prior to salute my interest in historical gaming was "very cool but not for me". I then saw some very nice Macedonian war elephants on someones table and I've just bought a box of greek mercenaries and ordered some elephants from warlord.
Everything is in flux, even gaming! :)
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I think that may have been the ancient society's table. It was very impressive, and war elephants always stand out amongst the massed ranks of pikes!!!
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I'd like to add that prior to salute my interest in historical gaming was "very cool but not for me". I then saw some very nice Macedonian war elephants on someones table and I've just bought a box of greek mercenaries and ordered some elephants from warlord.
Everything is in flux, even gaming! :)
Good for you nic-e! Good luck with your effalumps!
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Also, a quick count up of historical Vs sci/fi and fantasy tables has historicals clearly in the lead numbers wise. So that's that debunked.
Although somewhat impossible without help from the Warlords, I also wouldn't mind betting that in terms of table surface I bet the historicals vastly outnumber the others in terms of square footage as well. Our two games would have fit into Jim's about 3-4times when put together I reckon.
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I agree with you McFonz size matters for hysterical gamers lol
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So how do we make everyone happy? How do we inspire people to take up wargaming?
Free beer?
I'm sure it's not possible to make everyone happy, but to make the maximum number of people happy is a worthwhile goal. I suspect it's by offering as wide a variety of well-presented gaming experience as possible in the hope/expectation that this will capture somebody's imagination.
By well-presented I mean having handouts & publicity material, people capable of talking to total strangers, neat tables without piles of coffee mugs/shopping/etc. Some kind of link to help people take their interest further is useful - I always include a contact for LAF for example in the handout material so that people who might not be aware of it can see an even wider gaming experience and ask questions that occur post-show.
By gaming experience I mean all periods of sci-fi/fantasy/historical/what-ifs/board gaming/card gaming covered by a range of standards from museum quality terrain boards and figures to the average club/home game. Personally I'd always like to see more of the first, but some people can be intimidated and put off by 'perfect' games and having the more regular type of game represented will also help to draw people in.
It might be worth noting that while the general public might not wander into Salute, the typical customer does include those people who's experience of wargaming is either just starting or restarting or may be quite limited as well as the well-worn grognard. I was intrigued by some of the questions posed around our table on the day; for example a lot of people were new to the teddy-bear fur approach to gaming cloth whereas I thought it was a fairly well-worn path.
Just my 5 new pence worth :)
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I think that may have been the ancient society's table. It was very impressive, and war elephants always stand out amongst the massed ranks of pikes!!!
I think it was. Me and some of the other guys went round during the set up day and saw it all laid out waiting to go and it was an astounding sight.
On the subject of how to get people interested in your game, I really think free rules are the way to go. I know this is gonna be a massive hit for some smaller ventures. (open combat is ONLY rules, so giving them away free would be madness.) But something like the infinity quick start rules or an A4 print out of the basic game phases. There are dozens of games I have looked at but never got into because I couldn't find anything about the rules and I didn't want to drop money on a system which might give me an absolute headache. (I'm looking at you rogue stars.)
If not free actual rules, then making it clearer that demos are being run, Having your demo tables have more of a drop in capacity than a "queue and play" sort of system. Part of what made people want to play at the x-wing table was that we had it open at all times for people to dip in and out of.