Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: Lord Ekard on May 31, 2017, 09:38:50 AM
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Hope you will like them :)
(https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/18699693_1576172895735362_3173488894825657393_o.jpg?oh=0f21dd4a8f079a53679d6f502b0353ba&oe=59AB9D79)
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Oooh!
I can see these making some very nice Men of Gondor.
:D
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That's not a bad shout. I was thinking GoT Dorme.
cheers
James
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Oooh!
I can see these making some very nice Men of Gondor.
:D
Could make some good men of Constantinople too.
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Could make some good men of Constantinople too.
lol lol
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Hmmm. They're not really blowing my skirt up, although the slightly disturbing paintjob on those eyes possibly doesn't help.
Is there likely to be enough interest in Byzantines to financially justify this set? I guess only time will tell.
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I quite like the look of these. Its always good to see more medieval plastics and as others have mentioned they'd be great for kit-bashing with many of the other Fireforge kits but also with other manufacturers too.
Add to this their possible Frostgrave/Fantasy army uses and then these may be a very useful addition.
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That's not a bad shout. I was thinking GoT Dorme.
cheers
James
Indeed. I am using plastic LotR Haradrim as Dornians but these are good to. I suppose these are larger in comparison.
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Could make some good men of Constantinople too.
Nah ;D ;D
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Finally some Byzantines ! Any pics of the sprues ??
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Some more pictures and a release-date make my decision, if i like it easier. And the time between the first pics and the final release is very looooooong at Fireforge...
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Is there likely to be enough interest in Byzantines to financially justify this set?
Yes. Definitely.
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While I would prefer plastic cavalry, Byzantines are always welcome!
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Some more pictures and a release-date make my decision, if i like it easier. And the time between the first pics and the final release is very looooooong at Fireforge...
Release this summer
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Release this summer
Ok, great. Some more pictures?
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Ok, great. Some more pictures?
Not at the moment, you can follow the Fireforge FB page to check them ad soon ad we will publish
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Really great news. I sold my Crusader byzantines years ago. The plastics are A MUST HAVE for me.
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Looks like they based those two sculpts on the outdated and inaccurate Ian Heath's Osprey...
The lamellar on the figure on the left is wrong and doesn't even look Byzantine...
Pick up Dawson's Ospreys or even his Armour Never Wearies Scale and Lamellar Armour in the West, from the Bronze Age to the 19th Century (https://www.amazon.com/Armour-Wearies-Lamellar-Bronze-Century/dp/0752488627) for a good idea on how lamellar is worn on the body.
While pteruges are a possibility, by this time the upper arms and below the waist would've been protected by mail, scale or inverted lamellar. One could differentiate in the art by looking at whether the pteruges are stiff or not.
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Byzantines - my favourite medieval armies.
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They shout Dorne to me too!
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Oooh!
I can see these making some very nice Men of Gondor.
:D
Thinking the same thing! ;)
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Cool!
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Hmmm. They're not really blowing my skirt up, although the slightly disturbing paintjob on those eyes possibly doesn't help.
Is there likely to be enough interest in Byzantines to financially justify this set? I guess only time will tell.
I can't tell which Byzantines these are because the image is blocked where I work (I just get a black x), but I can tell you my Byzantine range is one of the bestselling "ancients" ranges I make, so yes Byzantines are definitely popular.
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Hold on, I'm confused. Is this range from Fireforge or from Khursan? Or made by Khursan and marketed by Fireforge?
This all seems quite Byzantine to me....
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Hold on, I'm confused. Is this range from Fireforge or from Khursan? Or made by Khursan and marketed by Fireforge?
This all seems quite Byzantine to me....
The 28mm+ sized range is from Fireforge, while Khursan is peddling his 15mm wares...
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Those Khursan ones look pretty good to me, too.
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Hope you will like them :)
(https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/18699693_1576172895735362_3173488894825657393_o.jpg?oh=0f21dd4a8f079a53679d6f502b0353ba&oe=59AB9D79)
I think that these models look great and I'm excited to see a new line of Byzantines. I just hope Fireforge sticks to plastics and metals and stops making models out of that resin-like stuff that's similar to Games Workshop's infamous 'Finecast' material.
I bought 3 packs of Fireforge's Chernyeklobuki cavalry, which are made from Fireforge's Finecast-like material. The plastic horses are great, like so many of their products, but the "Finecast" riders were complete garbage. The models were malformed, the mold lines were massive, and they were pocked all over with air bubbles. It took me quite some time with my hobby knife and green stuff to make the models presentable. By the time I was done with them, I was so disgusted with them that I abandoned my Rus Princes project and put my mutant Russ riders on a shelf to gather dust. It's hard to believe that anyone would let casts of such poor quality out the door.
Later, I purchased a pack of Fireforge Russian City Militia to use as Kislevs for a Mordheim warband. They are also made from the Finecast-like material. These models were better than the Chernyeklobuki, but not by much.
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I bought 3 packs of Fireforge's Chernyeklobuki cavalry, which are made from Fireforge's Finecast-like material. The plastic horses are great, like so many of their products, but the "Finecast" riders were complete garbage. The models were malformed, the mold lines were massive, and they were pocked all over with air bubbles. It took me quite some time with my hobby knife and green stuff to make the models presentable. By the time I was done with them, I was so disgusted with them that I abandoned my Rus Princes project and put my mutant Russ riders on a shelf to gather dust. It's hard to believe that anyone would let casts of such poor quality out the door.
Why didn't you send them back for a refund/replacement?
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It might be the photo but the shoulder joint on the chap on the left looks a bit dodgy.
I have the Dawson Ospreys which are very good. They suggest turbans were common place in the Byzantine army. Given the vastness of the Empire I wonder how much uniformity there would be between the various Thema. Add the to that the large number of mercenaries employed with their own styles of dress and weapons. Maybe lots of head and different armoured torso options would be good to incorporate in the set at per the Perry plastics?
I appreciate it is tricky though for figure designers whi are required to come up with something Byzantine looking to align with people's perceptions of this.
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For those who don't have access to the Osprey books, Timothy Dawson has an excellent website as well.
http://www.levantia.com.au/
The models actually look pretty good, especially compared to FF Russians, Swedish and archers. I may even get a box at some point.
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Why didn't you send them back for a refund/replacement?
The hassle and expense of mailing them back to Europe.
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Looks like they based those two sculpts on the outdated and inaccurate Ian Heath's Osprey...
The lamellar on the figure on the left is wrong and doesn't even look Byzantine...
Pick up Dawson's Ospreys or even his Armour Never Wearies Scale and Lamellar Armour in the West, from the Bronze Age to the 19th Century (https://www.amazon.com/Armour-Wearies-Lamellar-Bronze-Century/dp/0752488627) for a good idea on how lamellar is worn on the body.
While pteruges are a possibility, by this time the upper arms and below the waist would've been protected by mail, scale or inverted lamellar. One could differentiate in the art by looking at whether the pteruges are stiff or not.
For those who don't have access to the Osprey books, Timothy Dawson has an excellent website as well.
http://www.levantia.com.au/
The models actually look pretty good, especially compared to FF Russians, Swedish and archers. I may even get a box at some point.
Seems like, based on the Dawson resources, that these could be useful for kitbashing some more-accurate Byzantines. Green stuff seems a must though... :?
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The hassle and expense of mailing them back to Europe.
Apologies, didn't spot your location!
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"The hassle and expense of mailing them back to Europe."
Never, never, never send back faulty goods - the cost of packing and posting them is always excessiove. Just photograph what you received and email the seller showing that what you got was unacceptable and ask for a replacement to be sent you. Once that is agreed you can ask if he wants the original stuff back. In all the years I've yet to have anyone who sold me duff stuff ask for it back.
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"The hassle and expense of mailing them back to Europe."
Never, never, never send back faulty goods - the cost of packing and posting them is always excessiove. Just photograph what you received and email the seller showing that what you got was unacceptable and ask for a replacement to be sent you. Once that is agreed you can ask if he wants the original stuff back. In all the years I've yet to have anyone who sold me duff stuff ask for it back.
I got ripped off by a guy named Richard Anselmo at www.laguiole.com in this way. He never fixed nor replaced the defective $150 pocket knife he sent me. He argued that I was rude to him by sending him images of the defective knife. I suggest that nobody ever do business with that company (not that this has anything to do with minis but it does illustrate the principle.)
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"The hassle and expense of mailing them back to Europe."
Never, never, never send back faulty goods - the cost of packing and posting them is always excessiove. Just photograph what you received and email the seller showing that what you got was unacceptable and ask for a replacement to be sent you. Once that is agreed you can ask if he wants the original stuff back. In all the years I've yet to have anyone who sold me duff stuff ask for it back.
Although by UK law the seller is liable for the return postage cost if the goods are faulty.
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Apart from the obvious lower cost, IMHO the advantage of plastics is the potential to be able to individualize every figure. For Byzantine foot there should be options for:-
- quilted or lamellar torsos
- turban or helmeted heads
- oval, round or kites shields
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Great that Byzantine plastics are coming though. A nice army somewhat neglected by wargamers.
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As far as I remember, they will have ovals and kites for shields. I really doubt the turban will be an option, though. I will be quite (positively) shocked if that was the case. I also have my doubts about quilted/padded armour, especially if the pteruges will be molded on every arm. Unless those bits are meant to represent cloth of the tunic, not leather "feathers".
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The quilted armor and "turban" is in Praecepta militaria of Nikephoros Phokas and the revised version included in the Taktika of Nikephoros Ouranos, collected in Sowing the Dragon’s Teeth: Byzantine Warfare in the Tenth Century (https://www.doaks.org/resources/publications/books-in-print/sowing-the-dragonas-teeth-byzantine-warfare-in-the) - period Greek text on the left and English on the right.
Unlike the Taktika of Leo VI, an antiquarian, the aforementioned treatises were penned by generals - the former later became an emperor and the latter served under Basil II - and acquainted with frontline realities:
"They must have thick caps of felt to be fastened over their heads with bands of cloth" - Nikephoros II Phokas
"thick caps of felt fastened over their heads with bands of cloth" - Nikephoros Ouranos
Despite not being considered Roman, turban like headgear was worn by males of various classes, earlier than the 10th Century...
Roman Military Clothing(3) p23:
"Caps were sometimes replaced by or wrapped with a phakeolis: a kind of turban, usually of linen, wound around the cap and head in complex folds with an end falling to the shoulders as protection from the sun. This would have allowed the use of other headgear – perhaps helmets – on top."
By the Emperor’s Hand: court regalia and military dress in the Eastern Roman Empire by Timothy Dawson.
Pteruges, sometimes with attached strips of metal, could also be worn separately, attached to a belt. The problem is that the art was stylized, so instead of lamellar it's pteruges, even though it looks too stiff to be leather on the shoulders.
There were two kinds of quilted armor, both a continuation of earlier Roman versions: one was thin and providing under armor padding, while the other was at least two fingers thick - described in the aforementioned treatises. Soft helmets and armor was more a realization that, aside from the front rankers, not everyone might have access to metal.
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The quilted armor and "turban" is in Praecepta militaria of Nikephoros Phokas and the revised version included in the Taktika of Nikephoros Ouranos, collected in Sowing the Dragon’s Teeth: Byzantine Warfare in the Tenth Century (https://www.doaks.org/resources/publications/books-in-print/sowing-the-dragonas-teeth-byzantine-warfare-in-the) - period Greek text on the left and English on the right.
Unlike the Taktika of Leo VI, an antiquarian, the aforementioned treatises were penned by generals - the former later became an emperor and the latter served under Basil II - and acquainted with frontline realities:
"They must have thick caps of felt to be fastened over their heads with bands of cloth" - Nikephoros II Phokas
"thick caps of felt fastened over their heads with bands of cloth" - Nikephoros Ouranos
Despite not being considered Roman, turban like headgear was worn by males of various classes, earlier than the 10th Century...
Roman Military Clothing(3) p23:
"Caps were sometimes replaced by or wrapped with a phakeolis: a kind of turban, usually of linen, wound around the cap and head in complex folds with an end falling to the shoulders as protection from the sun. This would have allowed the use of other headgear – perhaps helmets – on top."
By the Emperor’s Hand: court regalia and military dress in the Eastern Roman Empire by Timothy Dawson.
Pteruges, sometimes with attached strips of metal, could also be worn separately, attached to a belt. The problem is that the art was stylized, so instead of lamellar it's pteruges, even though it looks too stiff to be leather on the shoulders.
There were two kinds of quilted armor, both a continuation of earlier Roman versions: one was thin and providing under armor padding, while the other was at least two fingers thick - described in the aforementioned treatises. Soft helmets and armor was more a realization that, aside from the front rankers, not everyone might have access to metal.
When would the oval shield have been discontinued?
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When would the oval shield have been discontinued?
AFAIK, it never was discontinued...
Raffaele D'Amato is better with his Byzantine aka Medieval Romans, than Antique Romans with the leather lorica, albeit ostentatious in appearance compared to Dawson's almost austere reconstructions, and based on the plates and the few bits of period art in his books, various types of flat and concave round shields as late as the 1450s.
A Prôtospatharios, Magistros, and Strategos Autokrator of 11th cent. : the equipment of Georgios Maniakes and his army according to the Skylitzes Matritensis miniatures and other artistic sources of the middle Byzantine period. (http://www.porphyra.it/Supplemento4.pdf) by Raffaele D’Amato
I just noticed that the boots look off...
Infantry footwear should look like this and described in the aforementioned treatises:
(http://www.levantia.com.au/images/boots.jpg)
‘Fit for the task’: equipment sizes and the transmission of
military lore, sixth to tenth centuries (http://www.levantia.com.au/pdf/Dawson_Fit_for_the_Task.pdf) by Timothy Dawson
The middle Byzantine era kontarion came in two sizes. The short kontarion was about 2.4 metres long. The great kontarion was between 4 and 5 metres long.1 The two upright men in the picture below are armed with great kontaria, while the lunging man deploys a menavlion. Whereas Nikęforos Fôkas gives a specific size for the head of a menavlion, spear heads only needed to be “fit for the task”. Front line infantry carried the great kontarion, while the short kontarion was the armament of cavalry and lighter infantry.
(http://www.levantia.com.au/images/formation.jpg)
I don't agree on every detail in D'Amato's and Dawson's books, the former's over reliance on art for accuracy and the latter's assertion that Byzantine style riveted lamellar disappeared after 1204 and the over importance of stirrups, but both are much better than Heath's compilations.
I have yet to find wargaming rules that allow Byzantines pikes...
The East Romans absorbed and modified clothing and gear from their neighbors and occasionally innovated and these passed to the West, usually via the Italians, to appear in the 15th Century...
http://camisado1500s.blogspot.com/2015/09/mourning-their-captain.html
15th Century Italian:
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ayH23qGIt_Q/VgMAsWDCNYI/AAAAAAAACNk/ZSnekk9HDDA/s400/100_8117.JPG)
From By the Emperor’s Hand: court regalia and military dress in the Eastern Roman Empire...
6th Century East Roman:
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/2d/24/88/2d2488416db2f4bb75feb1f72471e6bc.jpg)
10th century East Roman:
(http://imtw.ru/uploads/imperiall/imgs/total_war1446579501_11.jpg)
15th Century East Roman:
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/14/ff/6c/14ff6c8fdc0916ab117e317c0c1bacc0.jpg)
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"romiosio soldiery must have looked very "Turkish", as we might think of it now..."
With that in mind I wonder if one could use Gripping Beasts Arab Heavy Cavalry (http://www.grippingbeast.co.uk/GBP05_Arab_Heavy_Cavalry--product--4999.html) with appropriate shields to represent Byzantine cavalry?
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"romiosio soldiery must have looked very "Turkish", as we might think of it now..."
With that in mind I wonder if one could use Gripping Beasts Arab Heavy Cavalry (http://www.grippingbeast.co.uk/GBP05_Arab_Heavy_Cavalry--product--4999.html) with appropriate shields to represent Byzantine cavalry?
For close combat cavalry, I'd use slightly modified Normans and heavily converted GB plastic Arab heavy cavalry for light armored horse-archers and lancers - the padded surcoat shouldn't be that difficult to greenstuff. The Kataphraktoi are too specialized...
There's plenty of variation, since most Thematic cavalrymen would bring their own gear, with replacements sometimes provided by the state.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/b8/42/de/b842debda6b9a692d83e0d3a3c5ed32a.jpg)(http://www.levantia.com.au/images/khoursor.jpg)(http://www.levantia.com.au/images/ekatafrakt_3.jpg)(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/89/cb/4b/89cb4b456af4023f62daced4725166f0.jpg)
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e5/cf/34/e5cf34b0379fab61f8c734db6a12a869.jpg)