Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of the Big Battalions => Topic started by: Argonor on July 02, 2017, 06:48:00 PM
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Gentlemen,
I have recently regained contact with a long lost friend and gaming companion with whom I started my wargaming career back in the 70's.
We both have quite extensive 1/72 napoleonic armies, and I would like to find a contemporary (modern style) set of rules for us to get them back on the table.
Some wishes:
- Preferably not too granular
- The battalion should preferably be the tactical unit
- Fast play
- Army lists for at least the major powers, preferably for all their allies, too
- Fun - even tongue-in-cheek - special rules for nationalities and/or distinct units are welcome, but no necessity
- Preferably NO individual casualty removal
- The rules should be able to handle at least Corps sized forces within the time frame of an afternoon
Any suggestions will be much appreciated, please!
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I've not played it but perhaps General d'Armee might fit the bill?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1io3UWoeCg
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Blackpowder
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Blackpowder is good and once learnt quick and easy
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Blackpowder
Blackpowder is good and once learnt quick and easy
Thanks!
I may be wrong, but doesn't it have individual cas removal and a model count per unit?
I am not particularly fond of systems with activation rolls (actually, I have ditched the Rampant series of rules because of it).
I've not played it but perhaps General d'Armee might fit the bill?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1io3UWoeCg
I shall have a look at it when back from a short camping trip, thanks!
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There is no casualty removal in Black Powder -
Activation is much simpler than Lion Rampant
It does allow for some really big battles to be fought swiftly and to conclusion in a night
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GdA has activation rolls, different to BP and chance of failure can be mitigated by assigning assets to improve one's chances.
BP has no specific figure count and doesn't involve base or model removal.
I think that most modern Napoleonic rules will involve some kind of activation mechanic.
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OK, thanks, I shall have some closer looks at both. :)
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Lasalle would fit the bill as well. A nice fast playing set which is easy to understand.
No casualty removal. Units are 4 bases if normal sized, 6 bases if large (doesn't matter how many figures are on a base).
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Lasalle would fit the bill as well. A nice fast playing set which is easy to understand.
No casualty removal. Units are 4 bases if normal sized, 6 bases if large (doesn't matter how many figures are on a base).
Never heard of it before, but I shall have a look at it, thanks!
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In depth Lasalle review here: http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=185105
It's on TMP but the review is sane.
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Sounds like a case for Mr.Sam Mustafa. Have a look at Lasalle (divisional level) or Blücher (army level). This guy really knows how to boil down battles to the things which count, abstract minor things, but still have them have impact.
Black Powder is serviceable and of course very British (dang, those guys are good shots, aren't they. ;) ). I like it. However - if I have a choice, especially when it comes to the time between 1700 and 1900, I'd rather go with sets of rules which are more period-specific than a one-size-fits-all approach.
I only read General d'Armee so far, and it certainly is worth reading. It looks a bit like General de Brigade with the written orders removed and instead the new Aides de Camp system in place (which looks very good).
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Also, regarding Black Powder... You may not like the command roll system if you do not like the Lion Rampant activation rolls. In both cases the command is ended with a failed roll; however, in BP you move onto another commander (unless it is your general) whereas in LR you only have one 'commander' so your turn is over. In BP you have the bonus of 'Blunders': box cars means you have to roll on the Blunders Table... hilarity ensues...
For the record I like both of the command/control rules for these systems (but I admit that in LR the consequences of a failed activation are more harsh).
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Block Powder is OK, and always gives a good game, but it never somehow has much period feel (I used to have the same problem with its grand-daddy, Warmaster Ancients).
I've used the rules for Napoleonic, ACW and Zulu War. They seemed to work best for ACW, but not as well as a set intended for the period like Fire & Fury, Longstreet or Pickett's Charge.
I'd say BP is ideal if you just want to dabble in a period, but if you just want to play that period, you are better off with a set of rules designed for one period.
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In view of your general requirements, I think Black Powder would make a good choice. If you want to put a Corps on the table and get through the game in a single session and be fun, then all those things point towards BP. It's basic rule set is quite generic, but you there are a number of special rules that you can add to one or more units that give character.
You will mark each unit with a dice to show casualties and typically a unit can absorb 3 or 4 casualties before it starts testing on the 'Break Table', a result of which can see the unit off and suddenly there is a gap in the line.
They use inches for measurement and are thought of as being for 28mm in 12' tables, but they are very flexible and inches can be converted to half inches or centimetres to get a game onto a much smaller table.
Some people don't like the dynamics of the order / move system, but basically units dice for orders to be able to move and will either fail and not move or get to move once, twice or three times ... depending partly on how good their leaders command rating is and how lucky they are on the dice. At the end of movement a unit can fire, so the bit people don't like is that a unit could move three times (36" maybe) and then fire without interference from the target. An easy way around it is to say that if ever a unit moves more than once, it can't fire.
I went to a wargame show last week where they were playing it and they changed the sequence of play so that fire came before movement ..... the main point of this is that Black Powder is a robust system that can be tweaked to your hearts content (described by other as a toolbox).
As said, playing a big game in a short time does point a finger at Black Powder. They are also written in the style of 'Jolly Fine Chaps', which it seems you would be comfortable with.
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I have played two games of Black Powder. I don't mind the activation mechanism though others do. My main beef is that sometimes melees go on over several turns. If I was running the game, the house rule would be all melees be resolved in a single turn. Last game I played saw several brigades held up for turns by small cavalry units that were not beaten.
I cannot think of a close combat in this period that went on for more than 5 minutes, other than Spotsylvania which was an unusual case.
Your mileage may vary.
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Hmmm... may have to give BP a try... Doesn't seem to have expansions covering the campaigns against Austria and Russia?
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+1 for Black Powder.
If you find you don't like some aspect then just change the rules to suit your purpose.
The unit characteristcs seem to me to do a good job of bringing national and/or period quirks to life , especially once you start digging into the supplements. Eg Albion Triumphant suggests rules that favour British lines vs French attack columns.
I like to add scenario rules that encourage French player to keep guards in reserve.
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... and with 1/72 you can safely go to making all distance measures 3/4 of what's in the rulebook.
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Eg Albion Triumphant suggests rules that favour British lines vs French attack columns.
I am not all that convinced by that often quoted maxim. For instance, at Salamanca, a column-deployed division (Thomières) repulsed an attack by a British line (was then routed by a bayonet attack, but still). At Waterloo, d'Erlon's infantry corps was deployed in two large columns with each battalion in 3-deep lines, ie two battalions in line wide, which doesn't prevent all muskets to bear on the enemy.
I think the real advantage was in taking a defensive stance combined with high morale, as it is easier to stand still, fire and reload, than it is to maintain morale while advancing under fire, and seeing your mates getting killed and wounded around you.
The French army in Spain had a lot of conscripts (not to mention other nationalities, perhaps not all that keen on serving in a distant country and dying for a foreign cause), suffered from constant attacks and harassment (some of which was quite abhorrent) by local partizans, while the British consisted mainly of professional troops and were considered friendly by most of the locals, while their allies were locals, for a large part driven by hatred to the French occupying their homeland.
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I'm not a huge fan of BP ( but I have played loads of Hail Caesar, its Ancients cousin).
Movement distances in BP are huge (its easy enough to change them). Also command rolls influence movement very heavily (no move, single move, double move, triple move). Which combined with big movement distances really means some troops sprint forward. But other units can stand around for turns. Its a bit too random for me. I like some kind of activation system, but the chances are results for BP don't really work for me.
Also we found the shooting really quite ineffectual, with lots of dice rolling, and melee could be dramatic, with very few dice rolls (again just a bit too random).
What is great about BP is the presentation - it makes you want to play games. But probably with a different rule set ;-)
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Another vote for Black Powder though I would reduce the movement especially if you are using 1:72 scale.
The movement resulting from the command rolls is often criticised but you are supposed to say what you troops will do before rolling. So you shouldn't be able to opportunistically leap across the table (if you get three moves) if you haven't said that's what you were going to do.
Also once the enemy are within charge range you get free moves in any case.
A popular house rule is one of the "moves" generated by the command role must be spent on firing, if you intend to fire.