Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Second World War => Topic started by: Rich H on August 31, 2017, 08:22:02 AM
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Trial table for Bolt Action, trying to work out if it needs more.
I have antoehr set of fences and I plan on adding some craters on thie hills around the bunkers.
Too much, too little or about right?
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Looking good, What you are already adding should be enough. Of course I would love to see a full trench line and frozen lake. lol
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Trenches are in the box still (they aren't very good) and the frozen lake is right of centre!!
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Trenches are in the box still (they aren't very good) and the frozen lake is right of centre!!
I*t's not that easy to differentiate frozen lake from a frozen field during winter time ;) Unless one is used to them, that is :D
I would add more trees, both the shot-up kind and normal ones (firs and pines with occasional birches too). If you have fields, then also ditches around them could be in place. Then hills and cliffsides, we live in quite a hilly country and where the WW2 fighting took place was no different.
I guess you are familiar with the official FDF ww2 photo site?
http://sa-kuva.fi
Do post more progress pics.
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I*t's not that easy to differentiate frozen lake from a frozen field during winter time ;) Unless one is used to them, that is :D
Or you drive your tank into the middle of it.
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Or you drive your tank into the middle of it.
True that.
Swamps are also good for that:
(https://s20.postimg.org/ufw6p3x3x/64036.jpg)
pic source: www.sa-kuva.fi
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Thanks. Yes that is an extremely valuable resource pity it's so hard to find specific things.
I don't have many more trees and don't really feel like making more! They were for the manerheim line hence the blasted look. I'll see if I have any left form the original batch.
Did the fields have hedges or just ditches?
The main problem is it needs to be transported so I can't have huge pieces. I've also got 2 weeks... and I need to finish all the other stuff!
I do have both Millions bunker and Poppius Bunker... but neither are much use in Bolt Action!
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Happy to help sourcing pic material if needed.
This is for Continuation War, as you have the Sturmis, right? So no need for the concrete bunkers but you could have log "korsu" or two?
Rather ditches than hedges but frozen bushes work as well,
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It's Continuation War or Lapland War
The bunkers are just because I haev them, they are the 1930's style Maxim bunkers.
Frozen bushes might be easier, would provide a bit of scatter without being complicated to make - thanks!
I'll look at the Korsu see if I can make them easily.
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Just looked - a couple of Korsu might work well. There are plenty of images - could you do me a favour and pick one that you would consider typical?
Google translate doesn't do very well with Finnish!
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Here are images about building a chorus. showing the log and earth layers of the roof:
(https://s20.postimg.org/aww6thnq5/69600.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.org/wxcja46e5/86451.jpg)
Finished ones and how they blend into their surroundings. The korsu in the second pic is according to the pic info, very close to the frontline:
(https://s20.postimg.org/8i4b927h9/korsu_jatkosota1943_009.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.org/8d0jze065/85677.jpg)
Then one with a trench like corridor for protected entrance:
(https://s20.postimg.org/yrtz5lisd/161853.jpg)
But of course all the above ones are more for the lodging purposes, so if you build one of those types, then remember to have the entrance towards the friendly table end :)
If you go for the fortified machine-gun korsu, then something like this could work:
(https://s20.postimg.org/5k7cfcztp/korsu_2.jpg)
Just add snow and it will be perfect.
I think if you opt to build one of any type, maybe you can place it on a side of a wooded hill, just with the log framed entrance showing? Should be quite easy to model that one.
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Thanks!!
That was my thought, just an entrace but I might stretch to a bit more of a lodging.
Can't really have the fortified korsu it would be too powerful in Bolt Action, though I chould build it just as a feature.
I've ordered 24 more pine trees with foliage (and snow) this time to add more solid woods around the edges, just hope they arrive in time!
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Just for completeness
Fences and linear obstacles (piles of planks/logs):
(http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=103409.0;attach=67252;image)
Bunkers and ruins:
(http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=103409.0;attach=67254;image)
AT rocks (WIP):
(http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=103409.0;attach=67298;image)
Still to go:
Wet mud roads (Need checking see if I'm happy with them)
More tree bases (Bachmann 4"-6" snow covered firs)
I'm also pondering a Korsu protected shelter - Think buried log cabin/bunker (thanks to pocoloco)
Fainlly I could do with more scatter terrain, not really sure what to do though.
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For scatter terrain, a big lump of rock or rocks (moved by the withdrawing ice during the Ice age), bomb/shell craters (if the area has seen combat already) barbed wire etc
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I tried craters... I was unconvinced.... they aren't very good. ???
Rocks, I can do rocks.... Might lay it all out again, I've got a lot more trees now three times as many!
I might make it a ruined village in a forest clearing with bunkers on the outskirts. That might be interesting to fight.
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I picked up 18feet of 18mm tall railway fencing in the second hand bin for £2.
It's post and rail - would that be appropriate for Finland? I've seen some in pictures but it doesn't look common.
I neglected to take a pic but it's like this:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Westtown.jpg)
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Good enough for wargaming, I'm sure. Even if not 100% accurate, especially for a countryside setting. But since you will be splashing it with snow effects, it will be fine.
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Ta!
I'll look at basing it up see what it looks like.
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Yep I agree, that type of fence is not common at all, especially in the rural areas of our Eastern borders. They used almost exlusively the type of fencing called 'Roundpole fence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundpole_fence)' in this Wikipedia article, especially in the country. I did a couple of lengths of such fence a while back but I haven't sorted out a pic hosting service yet, so I can't post pics right now.
But as Pocoloco said, with some snow on, those will do alright.
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Yep I agree, that type of fence is not common at all, especially in the rural areas of our Eastern borders. They used almost exlusively the type of fencing called 'Roundpole fence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundpole_fence)' in this Wikipedia article, especially in the country. I did a couple of lengths of such fence a while back but I haven't sorted out a pic hosting service yet, so I can't post pics right now.
But as Pocoloco said, with some snow on, those will do alright.
Quite common sight even today, that roundpole fencing, people have it at their summer cottages and home yards etc. Bit off-topic, but Verderer you could use postimage.org to host pics, even I got it running and seems to work fine... so far :P
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I posted some pics using imgur in a thread of it's own, don't want to pollute Rich's thread with them?
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Thanks - I can make that.... :D
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I'll save the other fence for another project
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I have a load of 3mm bamboo skewers, I'm debating whether they need splitting to make fences. If I can split them into 4 I thnk that owuld look better but I suspect that might be hard work. I'll have a go at making a jig.
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So, I take it the thread title is a Monty Python reference? :)
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I'm glad somone got it ;D
Finland , Finland , Finland
The country where I want to be
Pony trekking or camping or just watch T.V.
Finland , Finland , Finland
It's the country for me
You're so near to Russia
so far away from Japan
Quite a long way from Cairo
lots of miles from Vietnam
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Roundpole fences and my patented* bamboo skewer splitter
*not patented
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In use.
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Better.
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Looking good, Rich. :)
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Ta. Going to lay it all out again (minus the cloth as it's a pain!) see what it looks like now I haev 2x as many trees adn loads more fences. I've time to make mroe fences or anything else that's needed.
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What do you think?
The forest side will be on a slight hill
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Cheap, portable, but slightly messy -- lay in drifts of snow using mounds baking soda. Good for adding los blockers and movement effects to open areas.
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Cheap, portable, but slightly messy -- lay in drifts of snow using mounds baking soda. Good for adding los blockers and movement effects to open areas.
I love loose terrain as it makes for great tables! But seeing as it's go to go to Firestorm I'm not sure they will appreciate the clean up!
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Looks a great table, is the hill going on the bare tree side or the ones with foliage?
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I was thinking foliage side but only because it's easier.
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I love loose terrain as it makes for great tables! But seeing as it's go to go to Firestorm I'm not sure they will appreciate the clean up!
My clean up method has always been clear the table of everything else, fold up the cloth and baking soda, take it outside, and shake it out. Extra points if you tell folks it's "snow". :D
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lol Not sure I can be bothered! lol
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Looking good, needs more forests lol
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If I could find some more scene scapes firs at half price I would, they look great!
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Love your project. Top work Rich.
Cheers,
Helen
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Thanks!
Had a T-34 I printed a while ago. The quality wasn't really good enough for use but it makes a good bit of scenery!
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Looks great, that does! I might pinch the idea... :D
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Basic barbed wire
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Great use for that T-34! Barbed wire looks like it wouldn't stop a Soviet tank assault... like it shouldn't anyway :)
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Ive made double apron fences before... to say they are tedious to make is an understatement!
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Or maybe its just the top sticking up through the snow...
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Suddenly there's a lot of Finland on this forum. :o As I lived half of my life in the Eastern part, maybe I can provide some native-level expertise. ;)
I'd say that the defining feature of that area are endless hills, almost always covered by forests. Historically, population density has been low even by Finnish standards. Still in the 19th century, slash-and-burn farming was common. Wood was the building material of choice for both houses and shelters. Consequently, small farms and fields might appear and then disappear in a few decades, the land quickly claimed by dense forests again. Due to the terrain and this semi-moving lifestyle, it's still unlikely to find any straight line or other built feature of significant size in the rural areas. Everything bends around the nearest hill or lake shore.
As mentioned a few pages ago, boulders (more accurately, glacial erratics?) are very common. They come in all sizes, and you'll almost certainly find one anywhere. Some are sharply broken from cliff sides, but those rounded by glaciers are more typical. A few random examples from my private reference album:
(http://dolmot.net/mini/ref/boulder1-1000.jpg) (http://dolmot.net/mini/ref/boulder1-2400.jpg)
(http://dolmot.net/mini/ref/boulder2-1000.jpg) (http://dolmot.net/mini/ref/boulder2-2400.jpg)
(http://dolmot.net/mini/ref/boulder3-1000.jpg) (http://dolmot.net/mini/ref/boulder3-2400.jpg)
They're easy to make too, especially the winter type.
It's also common to find rock piles and occasionally low stone walls around fields, but the latter are rarely built to any considerable height. Usually they're just another shape for a dump or maybe used for marking borders, but roundpole fences are vastly more common for actually keeping animals on the right side. Proper stone walls are most likely found around cemeteries, maybe some really notable houses, but rarely anywhere else.
Shacks and barns of all sizes are always a good addition. Some are standing, but the weather will eventually tilt and flatten them in a few decades. Artillery fire will undoubtedly speed up the process. Therefore a snow-covered roof with a bit of wall standing on some side should be a safe bet, again easy to make as well.
Beside the tree trio of birch, pine and spruce, especially in lower areas you'll almost certainly find smaller bushes and growth including willow, aspen and juniper, all among the fast-growing species which claim abandoned fields, shores and ditch sides. In winter time, all that can be simulated quite accurately with a snarl of twigs, buried to a level of your choice.
For the final rule of thumb:
- If it's flat and clear, it must be a lake.
- If it's flat with trees, it's a swamp.
- If it's clear but sloped, it's a field.
...but your average spot is neither. Therefore to maximise realism, it's a good idea to keep your basing small and come up with something clever for slopes, always covered by at least a small tree or a boulder, probably both. :)
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Wow thanks!
OK so I'll see what rocks I can find as erratics and I'll include the hills I was going to leave out to make things simpler but I'll make the effort!
So if I put some boulders (assuming I can find suitable ones in time) in the blank areas and put the 'village' in a small valley how would you change this layout? I was thinking Summa village region, but only because I've read about it.
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=103490.msg1288870#msg1288870
Obviously it's got to be playable for Bolt Action ;)
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I am not sure how much fighting there was around Summa during the Continuation War? But then I haven't really studied that later period. In any case, the Soviets would have destroyed with demolition charges all the fixed positions by the end of Winter War (or during the fighting already), I think. But I know a little about the area from my reading of the subject.
Finns used the nearby Perkjärvi as an artillery practice range before the wars, and there was even 'koelinnake' (test fort) at Summa lake which was a bunker-like structure used for testing both fortification strength and artillery shots (I guess). In fact, the Soviets apparently thought this testing structure was an actual bunker and wasted a lot of ammo trying to waste it. That's what I read anyways.
The area around Summarjärvi is littered with swamps, less so towards the Summa village in the south. There's only really couple of ways through that area using tanks, either through Summa village or by the narrow plot of higher ground between Bunkers 'Poppius' and 'Miljoona' in the Summajärvi sector (or Lähde sector as it is also known) which is where the breaktrough was made after really heavy fighting in 1940.
Also worth noting is that as the Soviets used a huge amount of artillery to completely demolish large parts of the forests around both Summa Lake and Summa village, so there would be very little actual forest standing at the hottest spots even years later. It looked like moonscape really, based on period photos and aerial recon photos. All the forests were just wiped out in certain parts.
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Yes I know, but I just read a lot about the Lahde sector.
I've got both the Millions and Poppius bunkers.... ;) I'll get pics later.
I built them for the Mannerheim Line games we played.
I was going for generic Finnish village.
What would you add?
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Well, I think you're set up pretty nicely already as it is? Of course, you can never have too much terrain, right?
I'd be interested in seeing your Millions, I am kinda stumped what to do about it, don't really fancy scratch-bulding them, maybe 3d-printing but that would require a hefty investment.
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Old pics. They are pretty simple but based on the drawings as best I could make out.
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Craning my neck here... :D
But that looks good, very practical for gaming purposes, my plan B is to make Millions in sections (maybe three) just like that, so I can use whichever bits are required. Plan A would be modelling the entire bunker in one piece, but it would be a huge piece. Might be able to combine both plans?
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No idea why it's turned over!
That is why I just made the East casemate. The roof should be thicker but I ran out of time. The whole thing is far too large and boring for wargaming. The central bunker is just accomodation and an artillery post.
My idea was to approximate the breakthrough gap with the finger on the left with millions (SJ5) and hill with Poppius (Sj4) on the right.
(http://www.winterwar.com/M-Line/LahdeSector.jpg)
I've found all of the 1930s migh res maps for the whole sector if you want them.
Took some finding but they are free on the internet with some sleuthing.
PM your email address and I'll send them over when I get home.
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Better.
"Gärdesgård" is the nomenclature for that kind of fence in swedish (pronounced "yersch-gord"). It looks great and as always (being the moderator of Workbench" I applaud your tool making tips. Clever.
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Suddenly there's a lot of Finland on this forum. :o As I lived half of my life in the Eastern part, maybe I can provide some native-level expertise. ;)
I'd say that the defining feature of that area are endless hills, almost always covered by forests. Historically, population density has been low even by Finnish standards. Still in the 19th century, slash-and-burn farming was common. Wood was the building material of choice for both houses and shelters. Consequently, small farms and fields might appear and then disappear in a few decades, the land quickly claimed by dense forests again. Due to the terrain and this semi-moving lifestyle, it's still unlikely to find any straight line or other built feature of significant size in the rural areas. Everything bends around the nearest hill or lake shore.
As mentioned a few pages ago, boulders (more accurately, glacial erratics?) are very common. They come in all sizes, and you'll almost certainly find one anywhere. Some are sharply broken from cliff sides, but those rounded by glaciers are more typical. A few random examples from my private reference album:
(http://dolmot.net/mini/ref/boulder1-1000.jpg) (http://dolmot.net/mini/ref/boulder1-2400.jpg)
(http://dolmot.net/mini/ref/boulder2-1000.jpg) (http://dolmot.net/mini/ref/boulder2-2400.jpg)
(http://dolmot.net/mini/ref/boulder3-1000.jpg) (http://dolmot.net/mini/ref/boulder3-2400.jpg)
They're easy to make too, especially the winter type.
It's also common to find rock piles and occasionally low stone walls around fields, but the latter are rarely built to any considerable height. Usually they're just another shape for a dump or maybe used for marking borders, but roundpole fences are vastly more common for actually keeping animals on the right side. Proper stone walls are most likely found around cemeteries, maybe some really notable houses, but rarely anywhere else.
Shacks and barns of all sizes are always a good addition. Some are standing, but the weather will eventually tilt and flatten them in a few decades. Artillery fire will undoubtedly speed up the process. Therefore a snow-covered roof with a bit of wall standing on some side should be a safe bet, again easy to make as well.
Beside the tree trio of birch, pine and spruce, especially in lower areas you'll almost certainly find smaller bushes and growth including willow, aspen and juniper, all among the fast-growing species which claim abandoned fields, shores and ditch sides. In winter time, all that can be simulated quite accurately with a snarl of twigs, buried to a level of your choice.
For the final rule of thumb:
- If it's flat and clear, it must be a lake.
- If it's flat with trees, it's a swamp.
- If it's clear but sloped, it's a field.
...but your average spot is neither. Therefore to maximise realism, it's a good idea to keep your basing small and come up with something clever for slopes, always covered by at least a small tree or a boulder, probably both. :)
Lovely pics, Dolmot. sa Sweden and Finland share many geographical features I recognize your description immediate. "Kastblock" or "jättekast" (giant hurls), i.e. huge rounded blocks of granite deposited by glaciers, are very particular to the landscape. They are excellent to include on a game board to get a typical and tactically useful feature on the gameboard.
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"Gärdesgård" is the nomenclature for that kind of fence in swedish (pronounced "yersch-gord"). It looks great and as always (being the moderator of Workbench" I applaud your tool making tips. Clever.
Thanks!
I've not had chance to look for rocks yes but I've my eye on a few in the garden... just need to wait for SWMBO (She who must be obeyed) to go out...
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Roundpole fences and my patented* bamboo skewer splitter
*not patented
I have lain a few of these...
(http://www.dsog.se/sv/thumb/781/431/1/3e7244a79f2aec6f998cbcf8e15cb67b0ff55b62.jpg)
...and as I am a the hopelessly didactic type I can't help myself but to tell you the basic construction:
* the vertical poles are juniper, blackened in the sharpened end, and hammered into the ground in pairs with a distance of about 1-1,5 m. The choice of material and the blackening of the ends is that it is resistant to rot. The poles in a new fence are ratehr tall tall, two meter or so, as they are supposed to be resharpened and driven deeper as the bottom ends rot.
* the vertical poles are, traditionally, bound together with branches of spruce heated over a fire to make them supple. In new fences it is common practice to leave the top needles in place. Don't know if it is for decoration, probably not... In modern fences the poles are bound with metal wire.
*Not always, but often, the pared poles have a supporting strut made out of flexible juniper, esp. when there are large animals involved. They are placed alternating on either side of the fence.
*the slanting bars, "gärdslen", are the boles of young spruce or tops of the same older sort. They are split along their lengths, and often barked, to make the wood dry and not rot.
A newly laid "gärdesgård" turns grey in just a couple of years. They are quite often become overgrown with lichen.
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Thanks for the explanation!
Mine are clearly not very accurate (being made fomr split bamboo!) and the scale is more what the bamboo gave me thatn accurate.
I tried splitting the bamboo into quarters but the result was too flimsy and fiddly.
To make the fences I cheated a little:
The split bamboo uprights were guillotined to about 20-25mm
I laser cut the bases with pairs of undersized 'D' shaped holes for the split bamboo then glue/hammered one side into place.
I then glue the gärdslen in place
Finally added the other verticals to hold it all in place.
The PVA glue allowed me plenty of time to adjust the position of each to get an even gap.
I need to get a pic of the finished article, it's painted grey and drybrushed beige then snow added.
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Not sure about Karelian tradition but at least in Savo/Savolax, there used to be a tradition to leave a single old tree (hardwood type) in the middle of cultivated field, sometimes surrounded with rocks that were cleared from the field. Some said it was to appease the spirits/ancestors/etc but whatever the reason, one way to liven up your snow covered fields.
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That I can probably manage.