Miniatures Adventure => The Second World War => Topic started by: carojon on September 10, 2017, 04:52:17 PM
Title: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: carojon on September 10, 2017, 04:52:17 PM
One of the games played at this month's meeting of the DWG was a bit of a change from the usual fair of figure games with this WWII fictional raid on Derben in July 1943 as a flight of Lancasters attempt to get too and from the target successfully but unscathed.
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: zippyfusenet on September 11, 2017, 12:32:49 AM
Thanks for this post. I read through the account of your game on your club blog. I'll play those rules if I ever have the chance. Is TFT always that bloody, or was this just an especially tough mission for B Flight? You wrote that you switched to 1/300 models for the night-fighter vs. bomber mini-games. What other scale models did you use?
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: Harry Faversham on September 11, 2017, 01:13:04 AM
Any idea where I might obtain the rule set?
???
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: Mako on September 11, 2017, 02:16:35 AM
Looks interesting.
Thanks for sharing your pics, and info. Looks like a great game.
Don't know what scales of smaller aircraft they used, but options include 1/1200th scale, as well as 1/700th, or 1/600th too.
I'm interested in getting a copy of the rules too.
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: carojon on September 11, 2017, 07:31:17 AM
Thanks for your comments chaps.
I thought the game might raise a few questions.
The game is not scale dependent, you could use any scale you like as they are there to add to the aesthetic of the game. I happen to use the tidly marker planes for movement on the bomber track and 1:300 for the combat and bomb run, but if you wanted to go large you could do 1:300 on the track with larger squares and 1:72 on the combat and bomb run.
Generally there is a 40-50% chance of something happening for each aircraft to move, with a 10% chance of something seriously not good which can be salvaged by crew skills etc. As mentioned novices throw twice for these events so getting a novice into and back from a deep raid is a challenge and might need tweaking, I just haven't played them enough to know.
Deep raids are very dangerous especially to the Ruhr and Berlin, with veterans and elites having a better chance to survive.
I don't know if the rules are still out there as I got mine about seventeen years ago, so I thought I would give them a good bit of publicity to see if the author or someone who knows him is still about in the hobby. As mentioned in the post I did a Google search and came up with a blank,but this post is on three forums and the club blog so if the author is about we might hear something.
We are planning to run a second game next month at the club so that might help keep them in the spotlight a bit and see if we hear back from the author.
Cheers JJ
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: Duke Donald on September 11, 2017, 07:53:35 AM
That sounds like an interesting set of rules. Your battle report makes for gripping reading.
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: carojon on September 11, 2017, 08:00:33 AM
Thank you. They are a fun set to play and the narrative they create makes writing up a raid like the ones we played relatively straight forward.
Cheers JJ
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: Mako on September 12, 2017, 02:53:02 AM
Hey Zippy,
Looks to me like 1/600th scale aircraft for this game, for the smaller planes, based upon the width of the boards, wingspans of the bombers, and size comparisons to the dice on some of the pics on the blog.
Here's another game that someone ran using these rules, for the Nuremburg Raid, a few years back, as you can see in the pics attached, if this works.
I'd inquired about them years ago, but never got a response to what rules were in use. However, seeing the title of these rules, and the "clue" of the name printed at the top of the aircraft control sheets that one can just make out, when zooming in on it in one photo, that issue has finally been resolved - "Target for Tonight".
They're able to print out multiple aircraft on a single page, to keep track of crew injuries/losses, and I suspect other things too. The seven little boxes at the top of the sheets for each aircraft (only 2 for the Mosquito), are for each member of the crew, with a single, or possibly two-letter abbreviation for their position.
No doubt, other things may be tracked too, like engine losses/damage, etc., etc..
These rules look to be somewhat similar to the Ruhr rules Donald Featherstone created, and published in his revised aerial wargaming book.
I like the abstract "map" layout of the raid shown in these two pics, since you can identify target cities (cross-hatched areas like are typically shown in many WWII historical books), the planned bomber route, and even Luftwaffe nightfighter airbases too (little green symbols on the map).
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: zippyfusenet on September 12, 2017, 03:26:44 AM
Thanks for the follow-up Mako, and for the OP carojon. I haven't asked for a copy of the TFT rules because I know that I'd never be able to construct the flight path for a game, it's far beyond my level of craftiness. Looks great in the pix, it would make an impressive show at a convention. Seems to be basically a solitaire game, where the player tries to survive hostile dice rolls. I don't see exactly how player input determines the outcome of the game, but I think it would entertain me.
Duel In The Dark is an interesting boardgame on the RAF night bombing offensive. In Duel, the British player tries to evade and deceive the German defenses while he scores points by bombing assigned targets; the German player tries to penetrate the British plan and extract losses from the bomber force. Duel is played with cardboard miniature airplanes that could easily be replaced with 3D 1/300 or 1/600 models, but the graphics of the game are so good that I just play with the counters.
I don't know anything about Featherstone's Ruhr game. Should I look for his book?
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: Mako on September 12, 2017, 03:35:07 AM
Yes, I would check it out, if you can find a copy.
An inter-library loan is probably your best bet, and is free from some locations, or very low cost from others.
Featherstone's also got rules in it for gaming the following periods, in addition to his Ruhr set (which appears very similar to TFT), and looks quite good - very similar to these, as near as I can tell, without seeing them, e.g. Sturmstaffel rules for bomber box busting, and a set of Vietnam air rules too.
There are also some chapters on other aspects of aerial wargaming, which I have yet to read, or try out.
The Ruhr rules use 2D6, and some of the others use dice, and/or playing cards.
Mike Spick also published a book on aerial wargaming, back in the day, which is worth checking out too. Not sure what the title for it is, but it's got some interesting ideas too, including flak rules, as I recall.
Might as well go for a two-fer, if you do the interlibrary loan thing.
Cheers!
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: Mako on September 12, 2017, 03:39:41 AM
Air Battles in Miniature - by Mike Spick
Donald Featherstone's Air Wargames: Revised Edition -- Wargaming Aerial Warfare 1914-1975 (edited by Jack Curry)
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: Mako on September 12, 2017, 07:20:53 PM
You shouldn't need much in the way of "craftiness" to set up a game, just a little cash to buy a playing mat, or the low-cost materials to make one. Options are:
1. king or queen sized, flat bed sheet; 2. large piece of black felt - buy with a 40% - 50% off coupon at Joann Fabrics - get the double-wide material, which runs about 6' wide (can also buy other, lighter, black fabric, if you prefer; 3. Dollar Store poster board, or thin, foam-core, in black - just need to cut to size, and paint the edges black, or use a black magic marker on them (the latter may be best, due to the material they're made from) - I'd leave some pieces in strips, for less cutting, and so they stay together, and then just use a gray marker or pencil to line off some sectors; 4. or, thin, countertop, or floor tiles. You might be able to find 6" x 6" ones, or to get someone to cut them for you. I think I'd just go with the larger, precut, 12" ones, instead, since that's easier. I imagine someone must make black tiles, but if not, Walmart sells spray primer for $1.00, so that's an easy fix as well.
Then, you can decorate the above, as needed/desired.
For the bomber route, you can use colored string or ribbon, and just weight, or tack it down somehow. Pennies painted black, or red/yellow, for route markers should work.
For the cities and flak zones, make those out of cardboard, foamcore, posterboard, styrene sheeting, or, and probably the most durable, and less prone to slippage, due to their weight, the aforementioned floor tiles. The thin stuff can be cut to shape surprisingly, with a good pair of scissors, and the edges take paint readily. Use these for your flak zones, cities, etc., etc..
1/600th aircraft are very affordable.
If space is an issue, you can drop down to the 1/1200th scale minis, which are also quite nice. Painting roundels, or even applying decals on them looks to be rather challenging though. They cost about as much, if not more, in some cases, than the 1/600th minis, so personally, I prefer the 1/600th ones.
I hope that helps.
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: Mako on September 22, 2017, 12:16:45 AM
A number of other people and I are interested in purchasing these rules from the author, D W Thomas, as either hardcopies, or PDFs, if the latter can be made available.
I'd prefer a hardcopy myself, and am located in the USA.
We'd really appreciate it if anyone knows the author, and would pass our request along to him or her. I believe the author may be from the UK.
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: flatpack on September 22, 2017, 07:22:45 AM
This all looks a bit of fun.. I'm up for a PDF copy if it becomes available. Got some 1/600 B24's ready to go.
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: flatpack on September 22, 2017, 07:28:37 AM
Thinking about it, with B24's I would be looking at using the rules for American daylight raids, with plenty of Germans fighters on the prowl. Would this be possible with these rules ?
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: carojon on September 22, 2017, 08:52:43 AM
Hi Chaps, As you might imagine I have been fielding requests for these rules and I thought it might be helpful to let you know where we are at it turns of next steps.
Firstly I can confirm that the author of TfT is or was from the UK as I met him when I bought the rules at the Plymouth club show where he ran a demo game. I am guessing this was in about 2000 as that is the date of publication in the rules I have.
I have left a message with the chaps at Plymouth to see if anyone knows the author or someone who might know him but have not heard anything yet.
I plan to run another game next month at the DWG and will use that posting to make another request for the author to get in contact on that and other forums
I am very happy to release a copy of the rules in PDF but am respectful of intellectual property rights and the legality of such an action and so am keen to see if that is possible once all attempts to contact Mr Thomas have been exhausted.
I know this is frustrating for those who want to have a go with TfT but I am sure you will understand the situation.
Cheers JJ
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: flatpack on September 22, 2017, 10:43:29 AM
JJ Thanks for the info. Nice that you are on the case Appreciate the feedback. Let's hope we find this man.
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: S_P on September 22, 2017, 09:25:09 PM
Thanks for the update
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: madman on September 24, 2017, 02:16:47 AM
Thank you for your efforts. This looks like a very interesting, and potentially popular, set of rules which just needed a little more exposure.
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: Mako on October 07, 2017, 08:45:36 AM
Yes, thank you for your efforts on trying to publicize this, and to help find the author of the rules.
Sadly, it doesn't look too promising, given the elapsed time period, but I will continue to hope they can be made available to those that are interested in them, by the author, at some point in the future.
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: carojon on October 15, 2017, 01:54:44 PM
One of four games this month was, as mentioned in this thread, another game of 'Target for Tonight' recreating a raid on Berlin in February 1944.
The post highlights some of the ongoing changes we have added to improve what are a relatively old set of rules with some much needed additions and refinements.
If anyone knows anything about these rules and its author please drop a reply either here or on the blog post as others have expressed an interest in getting hold of a copy.
If you would like to know more then just follow the link to the DWG blog.
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: Mako on October 18, 2017, 03:50:36 AM
Thanks for sharing another great battle write up.
Sounds like fun, and the rules mods you've made do sound like they're working well.
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: Mako on October 20, 2017, 10:45:27 PM
As I previously posted, for those of you who need/want a RAF Night Bombing Raid fix anytime soon, you might seek out the following book at the local library, or via an inter-library loan, since the rules posted in them are somewhat/very similar (uses 2D6 instead of D10s, but they do use the bomber route sectors in TforT), but I suspect far less inclusive than Target for Tonight, based upon the battle reports posted thus far:
Donald Featherstone's Air Wargames: Revised Edition -- Wargaming Aerial Warfare 1914-1975 (edited by Jack Curry)
Still, they look to be decent enough for beer and pretzels sorties, though in some areas there need to be some house rules created to cover certain events, or to just use the existing rules for damage to the bomber(s), e.g. follow-on nightfighter attacks, if your bomber isn't immediately shot down when one shows up.
I've had some fun tweaking and bolting on some other things too, just for grins, when I run across those, or want to add in a few more, just for color.
One I'm still considering is variable loss rates for the different bomber types - may want to include altitude modifiers, and/or just a mod. for the types of bombers.
Apparently, surviving the bailout from a Lanc in 1943 was as low as 11%, and doing so from a Halifax was 29%, according to a study supposedly done by the RAF in Jan. 1944. They kept the results secret from the aircrews, for obvious reasons. Hals had much higher loss rates on ops though, as did the Stirlings too.
Still looking for bailout survival percentages for the Stirlings and Wellingtons, if anyone happens to run across those, especially for the Battle of the Ruhr, Hamburg, and Berlin periods of 1943, and early 1944.
I was surprised to see mention of single engine nightfighters as well, over the Ruhr, but there are quite a few mentions of them, prior to the July 1943 period, when supposedly they officially entered the battle, over Hamburg. It appears than Hajo Hermann and his mates were active a bit earlier than is commonly known, or mentioned in the historical accounts.
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: carojon on November 10, 2017, 04:30:47 PM
Following the numerous enquires here and on other forums about the availability of these rules following the game reports posted here in September and October, I have some good news.
My investigations finally paid off and thanks to various parties I have managed to contact Mr Thomas ,the author, who has kindly got back to me to let me know that a free PDF of the rules will be shortly available from John Curry's, 'History of Wargaming' site.
http://www.wargaming.co
Thank you for your patience and I hope you enjoy Target for Tonight.
JJ
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: zippyfusenet on November 10, 2017, 06:01:34 PM
Interesting website. I've bookmarked it. Thankyew.
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: Mako on November 10, 2017, 08:42:58 PM
That is excellent news, JJ.
Thank you for the update.
I look forward to seeing them soon.
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: madman on November 10, 2017, 08:49:57 PM
Thank you for all your effort, and a big thank you to Mr. Thomas. I hope he is pleased his rules are gaining a following.
Stephen
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: S_P on November 10, 2017, 09:09:37 PM
Great news- thanks for all your work on the matter.
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: Remgain on November 10, 2017, 10:05:46 PM
Great! Thank you very much!
Marco
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: gweirda on November 10, 2017, 11:30:11 PM
...Mr Thomas ,the author...has kindly got back to me to let me know that a free PDF of the rules will be shortly available from John Curry's, 'History of Wargaming' site.
As a bystander (both virtual and material - and one who can barely give his stuff away ;) ) I wonder if -given the demand- some sort of charitable fund could be set up for those obtaining the PDF to contribute to? It may not be much, but... ?
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: Mako on November 17, 2017, 01:41:23 AM
Please let us know when they are available.
In the meantime, I'm pressing on with mods for the Ruhr rules listed in the Featherstone book, and having a bit of fun running some trial sorties with them. Loss rates seem to be a bit sporadic, with some heavy at times, and then rather sparse for others, but still good fun.
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: Mako on December 09, 2017, 10:12:06 PM
I inquired with John, over on the Wargames website, and he said they're working on making it available, and ensuring it is fully updated.
If all goes to plan, looks like perhaps mid to late January for availability.
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: robh on January 24, 2018, 10:18:06 AM
I have received an email from John Curry to say the "Target for Tonight" rulebook is now available for pre-order from his site. Release due for 23rd February (possibly a bit earlier).
Printed softback or Kindle ebook formats. Now up to 84 pages.
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: S_P on January 24, 2018, 05:13:57 PM
Excellent news :D
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: manchesterreg on March 10, 2018, 04:40:45 PM
Target For Tonight is hopefully being printed next week, and will be ready shortly according to John :)
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: robh on March 19, 2018, 03:12:55 PM
My copy arrived at the weekend. Comes via Lulu PoD service. Excellent quality printing, good paper, softback cover. Plenty of information and background in there as well as the rules. Just need to work out some playsheets for the early bombers I have as the game only covers the Lancaster.
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: manchesterreg on March 19, 2018, 03:59:14 PM
Still waiting for mine, must chase him up.
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: manchesterreg on March 24, 2018, 01:02:39 PM
Received, probably needs though a rereading a few times as things are not laid out well, and somethings need a bit of clarification, however as for me it's a solo game, it does appear okay to play as it stands. And its moddable, Interested in a previous comment about Ian Dury's game "Enemy Coast Ahead" But my google Fu is weak and i cannot find a reference to it?
Regarding fuel pips, i've decided that when the die reaches 6, its empty, and you gain a pip every time you get bounced and or have to go around/rejoin the stream, so you have to think can i go one more zone or should i turn back.
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: robh on March 24, 2018, 01:49:40 PM
That should be "Ian Drury", but I don't think there is a version of ECA online. It was only available as a Conference of Wargamers or Wargame Development presentation game not a published one as far as I know.
Regarding fuel in Target for Tonight, you will need to change the tendencies of the crew if you are going to penalise a "Go round again"with a fuel pip. If the plane is forced off the bombrun some aimers/pilots will dump bombs but most are obliged to go again. Depending on your luck with the cards missing your bombrun is very easy :(
You will need to set a maximum number of "go-rounds" the plane attempts before aborting. I am looking at allowing only 2 further attempts after the initial off run failure before obliging the crew to attempt a secondary target. I would be interested to see what game options you come up with.
Looking at the game as a campaign basis I think the overall risk needs to be much reduced. The rules always make the player group the "unlucky" ones by concentrating all the losses on them. The test games I have done have about a 66% loss rate (not unheard of for specific squadrons on specific missions) but I think is too high for an extended campaign game. I am still thinking on ideas for this. But then I first played TfT in testing in the 1990s and remember thinking about this back then too.
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: manchesterreg on March 24, 2018, 03:46:21 PM
Im aiming at only one go around, regarding the D6, i see your point, may increase it to a D8, dont want it too high, as otherwise it makes the Lancaster a flying petrol tank. Have been looking at doing the risks etc as a D20 and keeping damage as a D10. will look at the Featherstone book for other ideas, the game as it is, is still playable and very thematic, but i do love more the ability to add on things.
Title: Re: Target for Tonight - Devon Wargames Group
Post by: S_P on March 27, 2018, 02:07:13 PM
My copy arrived this morning- looking forward to being able to give it a proper read through.