Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: Phil Robinson on September 17, 2017, 08:52:15 AM
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Have I been sleeping?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ELVJlNy9hpk&feature=youtu.be
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I've not heard about it either. Wonder how different it is...?
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I think it's new to a lot of people
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It looks like they are looking to compile a lot of the stuff that has appeared in other publications but calling it a 'new edition' suggests that there will be rules involved. Too bad: I have haven't even played a game of the latest edition :'( :'( :'(.
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Given the slight impracticallity of originally having to get the book that contained rules for four faction you may not have needed, and later a larger book focussing on an entire period some were not at all interested in, it does make sense to create a full, seperate rulebook, and have supplements for just the further periods and armies. I did like how many of the previous armies could be used in the same settings however, even with reasonable overlap to later expansions (e.g. Normans and Byzantines were still relevant fighting Saracens and Crusaders; Welsh and Irish could be part of the Aetius and Arthur setting) - they are either very ambitious with all these future books, or there will be very few useable factions in each.
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I've been thinking about trying out Saga - this will give me a new timeframe. Interested to see what they do
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Lord S talked about this at the UK Grand Melee last year, he said he wanted one rule book with all the rules in, then period specific books with all the factions in them & they would update some of the factions that were broken.
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Can't say too much but I have read the Beta version.... quite a bit is changing; some for the better, some 'not so good'.
Be interesting to see the finished product. But being Studio Tomahawk I'll be very surprised if it does appear next year ;)
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Please say too much, we're all ears.
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I have contributed some piccies... 8)
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Captain Blood would that mean it's sort of an art book of yours? That'd probably make me buy it :D
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All will revealed?
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1189722031129839&id=497451870356862
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If it is an overhaul of the rules to clarify wording etc then a minimal cost PDF would be the best as existing players just update their existing rulebook.
If, like a recent ruleset I play a lot, is revised to add colour pictures etc without improving the basic rules then it will not be worth investing in :-[
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I'm totally in.. one rule book to rule them all.. but the extension to other periods is just brilliant !!
Francisco
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Studio Tomahawk have released an interview with Alex Buchel about the new edition
http://www.studio-tomahawk.com/en/category/actualites/
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The interview does make it sound rather good, (although all those people who own all the previous rulebooks must be feeling a little upset to see it confirmed that all but A&A are invalidated by the new books). One thing though, if the Age of the Vikings book contains 12 factions, who is for the chop? As there are 16 Dark Ages factions (not including Skraelings or WI Early Arabs). 1) Normans, 2) Anglo-Danes, 3) Welsh, 4) Vikings, 5) Bretons, 6) Anglo-Saxons, 7) Scots, 8) Jomsvikings, 9) Franks, 10) Irish, 11) Norse-Gaels, 12) Strathclyde Welsh, 13) Pagan Rus, 14) Princely Rus, 15) Byzantines, 16) Steppe Tribes.
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It will be interesting to see what the fairly substantial changes in the core rules could entail. From the first book to C&C, the actual mechanics were slightly tweaked and phrased more clearly, rather than really changed. Besides, any criticism of the game I heard was always aimed at particular warbands, rather than the rules itself.
Glad that A&A will stay relevant, seeing how I've yet to play a game with that book (or indeed paint my Romans). Not that anything is stopping me from using old rules of course, but finding opponents won't be easier with outdated warbands.
As for warbands getting the chop, I think those going will be the ones further from the Western European focus and early period: Steppe Tribes, Byzantines and Princely Rus. Then either the Jomsvikings (can still be used as Vikings, if you allow them Dane axes) or Strathclyde Welsh (allowing the normal Welsh a more cav focussed band). The Joms are a tad less historical, while the Strathclyde were never overly popular from what I've seen. As for the others, Byzantines will just move to the Crusades book, as could the Rus Princes I guess (not entirely sure what period they cover, but I assume there is overlap with the Northern Crusades. Saying that, it also wouldn't surprise me to see the Pagan Rus go for similar geographic reasons, with both Joms and Strathclyde staying in).
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I will wait untill they are released and read comments on it.
But i´m one of those not happy at all to have invested in several books and in 2018 they will become obsolete.
I think i wont buy this book or any other since it isnt fair to start all over again.
Besides i´m happy with the rules as they are. :)
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Perhaps I would be more excited about this if I had played the crap out of the previous editions... but I haven't :'( I think it is probably a good way to go though. I imagine the changing of the dice required to activate abilities will be what out dates the old battle boards. Hopefully there is nothing too radical otherwise- just re-wording of abilities to clear up ambiguity.
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The interview makes it clear that existing battleboards will be usable with the new rules (with a few tweaks required), so your investment won't be wasted. You can of course continue playing with your existing rules.
Considering how many hours of fun I've had out of Saga I don't begrudge spending a bit more money at all, and I haven't even played all the factions I've got!
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Sounds great to me. Love me some Saga. The current rules have been revised, amended, and reworded in so many different books I'm sure I am playing it wrong! A chance to have one definitive rulebook at a low cost, yes please. I don't like pdfs and I don't like having half a dozen books to leaf through, so I'm happy about this. I just hope it doesn't take as long as the usual snail pace. Long overdue if you ask me.
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Right will that do? :)
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Right will that do? :)
lol
Quite clear.
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Our group played loads of Saga when it first came out, and we added in forces from the second supplement. I got C&C and me and a mate started putting together Crusader armies, but they haven't reached the table.
It was nice to have the C&C rule book to play the Dark Ages games as it had all the errata in one place, and cleaned up some of the text. But it was the same rules.
Not sure about a second edition - but more from a not sure if we'll play it. Or can really be bothered to learn some variants to the rules we already know.
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Oddly enough I would prefer the rulebook in hardback instead of cheapish soft-back. SAGA always had this 'posh' presentation thing and I loathe rulebooks falling to pieces after frequent use. All books for that matter.
Still, brilliant idea!
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Stapled softback books usually hold up better than cheap hardbacks.
Hardbacks have an annoying tendency for the ends to detach.
Don't get me started on 'perfect bound'. Possibly the worst option.
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"The release of Aetius & Arthur brought to light a problem Saga suffered from: the impossibility of getting the rules separately from a certain period. If you aren’t interested in the Late Roman or Arthurian period, you have to get the rules elsewhere, either in their most recent incarnation (Crescent & Cross) or in their original form (Saga: Dark Age Skirmishes). Since we want to release supplements opening Saga up to new periods without repeating the basic rules in each book (making them more onerous than they should be!), we didn’t want that problem or the legitimate issues it raised to continue. Not to mention it was an obstacle to making Saga as accessible as it should be."
This was always something that kept me out of Saga. I was never quite sure exactly what i needed to get going.
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I will wait untill they are released and read comments on it.
+1
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I'm pretty content with my Dark Ages stuff as it is, so unless there's suddenly a huge surge in interest for the new edition rules in my area I probably won't bother getting new stuff until they release a sourcebook for a setting that interests me, which isn't already covered by some other set of rules that I already own. Looking at the teaser video, I guess maybe that will be the 100 Years' War or ancients?
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+1
+1 I'm happy with using what I already have, and don't feel like learning yet another set of new rules and add ons. What with FoW and Bolt Action as well I'm getting pretty hacked off with this fad of bringing out more versions of rules I already know and use perfectly adequately. Since I don't enter competitions it won't affect me though, I'll carry on with v.1.
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+1 I'm happy with using what I already have, and don't feel like learning yet another set of new rules and add ons. What with FoW and Bolt Action as well I'm getting pretty hacked off with this fad of bringing out more versions of rules I already know and use perfectly adequately. Since I don't enter competitions it won't affect me though, I'll carry on with v.1.
While I would have preferred a revised edition of the original, the spread of the ruleset is something that could make an update useful.
Especially since it's currently a pain to get people to get the books and everything else. With this it will at least make that end of things easier.
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Not quite back to square one I'd say, having an inexpensive rulebook with a single expansion for the relevant period you're playing isn't as costly to collect or impractical to play as for example needing the C&C book for the rules, A&A for a game set in that period and then the Irish book for wanting to play the Arthurian variant of that list. Whether an errata/FAQ is a bad thing is open to debate, some will complain that it adds more paperwork, but if it helps clarify and balance the game more, that's a small price to pay.
The main thing I'm worried about to be honest is the quality of translations. I was happy to be among the lucky ones to get A&A at its first release in Antwerp last year, but the number of obvious mistakes in the text put me off quite a bit (and similar, glaring mistakes were on previous battleboards as well). Certainly won't jump at the opportunity to get a copy from the first print run anymore.
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That's just it though, isn't it?
I bet you, as much as you like, that before long there will be an update/errata sheet for the new version.
And you can also bet that there will be a similar update/errata sheet for each of the new 'universe' books.
Which will bring us back to square one.
I'm also not a competition player, so having the new rules and books is not important to me. I only play in a club and we're pretty much happy as is. I'm not closed to the idea of a new edition, so long as the cost is fair and I like the changes. So I'll wait and see.
A lot of it depends upon what model they go with from there.
I could see a shift to, largely, be revised versions with incorporated errata and updates, which is something that I liked with several RPGs that did it. You could get a new revised version which incorporates all of it directly into the book, or keep using the old ones with the extras printed out.
Add that they seem to be taking a few more steps into the mythical for things as possibilities, you would have a massive rework of the system here along with bringing things from the later books back into the earlier things if they fit.
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I understand where they are coming from but the problem with this kind of release, for me at least is that you can't just buy the rule book and play the game, you need to buy a SAGA Universe Hardback as well. I also am assuming that the battle boards come with the Universe books included.
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I also am assuming that the battle boards come with the Universe books included.
I think that is how it will have to be done. Wouldn't it be nice if you could buy them as PDF's and print them off at home.
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Hopefully We will probably find out a bit more this weekend at the uk Grand melee
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There’s a report from Crisis on The 2nd Edition over on the skirmish wargaming blog
http://skirmishwargaming.com/saga-second-edition-changes/
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Cheers for posting the link.
Interesting stuff.
Some changes are more eyebrow-raising than others, but I can't say I'm massively opposed to any.
If the price will be as predicted then I would buy it.
Your welcome
I know what you mean, I think some of the changes are just clarifying how the game was always intended to be played ( straight line movement, stoping the 1 figure hiding to keep the saga die) I’m not sure about the Warlord though, but I will throw £10 (Andy at Gripping beast also said that the new rules would be £10 at the Grand Melee) at it to see how they are.
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Yes, a very useful link to a good summary.
A lot of the changes do seem like tidying up. Having to keep units above half-strength to generate a saga dice is good - now you have to make a decision to use them in melee, where they will still be useful or hide them while they still have a number of figures.
Straight line movement sounds OK, might get interesting around terrain.
The warlord changes are significant, and may change how things play.
it will be interesting to see how the battle boards have changed. They always seemed to have a mix of abilities and the power levels between factions didn't always seem balanced.
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There’s a report from Crisis on The 2nd Edition over on the skirmish wargaming blog
http://skirmishwargaming.com/saga-second-edition-changes/
OK, I'm in!
I have played several games with first ed., but there were a few things which didn't feel right in my opinion. That seem to be cleared out with the second edition.
And for that price...
A good reason to paint up a few more miniatures in the near future.
Looking forward to it!
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I admit that I am not convinced by what I read there. I liked it the old way.
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Those changes iron out some of the things I disliked about the game - one guy skulking in a wood but still generating a Saga dice was my biggest complaint. The thing about foot units more than L away getting a free move to get them in the action, if true, will be another welcome change. Hopefully levy troops will not be too overpowered now. All in all, from the little knowledge we have, these seem like well thought out changes.
Really looking forward to these revisions, seems like my favourite game system is gonna be even more favouriter (that should definitely be a word).
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I suppose these are the kind of changed that were to be expected (keeping the game similar, but changing particular tactics and interactions of abilities). So far I'm.. not sure?
Streamlining elements by having all non-shooting Levy get 1 attack per 2 figures or having javelins as a fixed -1 armour (heard elsewhere) seems good, practical.
Changing the requirements for saga dice generation, with minimum strength units and even dice for levy I like - tactically, pulling depleted units back to still generate dice and trying to hunt down such enemy units felt fine in gameplay, which will now simply switch to aiming to reduce larger units while being able to throw in small ones that no longer generate dice anyway, which is probably a more interesting mechanic.
On the other hand, having to move in straight lines and losing the ability of warlords to charge in with a friendly unit seem like unnecessary simplifications in what never was an overly complicated game, the latter especially mainly to help with unintended interactions related to multiple combats etc. The ability to use unlimited amounts of Fatigue removes an important balancing mechanism, while the idea of getting free moves when far from enemies rewards poor placement of units, especially strange since units can (and I imagine will continue to) be activated several times to move more than once anyway.
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On the other hand, having to move in straight lines and losing the ability of warlords to charge in with a friendly unit seem like unnecessary simplifications in what never was an overly complicated game, the latter especially mainly to help with unintended interactions related to multiple combats etc. The ability to use unlimited amounts of Fatigue removes an important balancing mechanism, while the idea of getting free moves when far from enemies rewards poor placement of units, especially strange since units can (and I imagine will continue to) be activated several times to move more than once anyway.
I don't really oppose any of the changes but I agree with these sentiments. It looks like the changes make it impossible for a Warlord to pawn hits off on Hearthguard in melee unless you have a unit placed very close by, watching the battle (unless one of the rule changes allows multiple units in combat).
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I think I'll wait until the rules are released and can play a couple of games in a shop. Then I will decide if I go for the new game, of continue to use the old first edition with changes. I did dislike so much the 1-man Saga dice generator that I used a house rule similar to what is being implemented. Also found odd the combo Warlord-Hearthguard, but I rationalized it as representing the professional warriors being the actual battle winners, while the rest were just warm bodies.
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I don't really oppose any of the changes but I agree with these sentiments. It looks like the changes make it impossible for a Warlord to pawn hits off on Hearthguard in melee unless you have a unit placed very close by, watching the battle (unless one of the rule changes allows multiple units in combat).
You've always needed to be very close by to farm out hits (within VS, which is 2"). The only change is that only hearthguard can be sacrificed in v2, not warriors, so the old tactic of a unit of 4 cheap warriors following the warlord around is gone.
I don't know why they got rid of 'side by side', though. That seems a negative change.
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You've always needed to be very close by to farm out hits (within VS, which is 2"). The only change is that only hearthguard can be sacrificed in v2, not warriors, so the old tactic of a unit of 4 cheap warriors following the warlord around is gone.
I don't know why they got rid of 'side by side', though. That seems a negative change.
By using the 'With Me' rule the Warlord could charge in with his buddies; however, according to the Skirmishwargaming link:
The “With Me” rule is scrapped: the Warlord can no longer charge with another unit: if he does charge, he charges by himself – which is where the beefed up number of attack dice come in handy!
If I understand it correctly that means you have to have a unit of hearthguard strategically positioned before the charge to pawn off a wound.
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'Side by Side' is the rule that lets the warlord charge with guards.
'Follow me' lets him move another unit for free. In the current Saga you use both to charge in together.
So you could use 'Follow me' to move the guards up, then charge in with the warlord, just not 'side by side'
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'Side by Side' is the rule that lets the warlord charge with guards.
'Follow me' lets him move another unit for free. In the current Saga you use both to charge in together.
So you could use 'Follow me' to move the guards up, then charge in with the warlord, just not 'side by side'
Yeah that's right; that would work.
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Thanks to a Mr. Parker on the SAGA Facebook group, who was at Warfare and talked to Andy for some time, we have a bit more (and comfirmations of previously released info):
- Troops L away from the enemy may make a free move as long as it doesn't take them within L of the enemy. Designed to stop a lot of time spent manoeuvring
- battle boards are changing - I saw the Anglo-Dane one and its broadly similar but different.
- the A&A boards are not changing - these were designed and play tested with with SAGA 2
- a lot of the changes are designed to stop some of the gamier elements of play - perhaps more often seen at tournaments
- all figures fight in melee, end of. doesn't matter where they are
- Straight line movement - its a thing but what wasn't explained is that you nominate a figure. That figure moves first and then all other models must end within (I think) VS of it. This stop for example a lateral line of troops shifting sideways as the figures on the far end cant possibly end within VS. It forces units to bunch.
- there is no side by side rule - warlords go in by themselves if they go in
- rules will be cheap.....however the period packs will be pricier. A price was mentioned but don't think I should post.....
- GP are selling SAGA 1 stuff 50% of cost now recognising the change is coming
- old boards are definitely compatible with new .....but some common sense allowances for new rules might needed.
Main points here are the changes in movement (not just straight line, but move 1 figure and place others nearby) and the fact that all figures in a unit now fight when that unit is in combat. The latter will help deal with different base sizes and intricate measuring whether a figure is or isn't quite in range (although C&C's rules allowing base contact to count regardless solved most issues I encountered). However, this combined with the movement changes (VS seems extreme, perhaps S?) does completely remove the idea of formations and flank attacks. Although SAGA may not have dedicated rules for either, the rules automatically represented such factors quite nicely: if attacking a long line of troops in the flank, you will get few attacks in return while dealing massive damage, while tight shieldwalls are much stronger. As with other apparent changes, I can imagine part of the reasoning will have been to stop exploitation of loopholes, but I once again feel the new rules enhance simplicity at the cost of creativity and having a truly interesting game.
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I don't mind these changes, they appeal to me. I dislike the fiddle of determining which figures can fight and which cannot - it's open to interpretation/exploitation and is pretty dumb, so quite happy with that one. Streamlining is what I would call it, rather than simplification. There's still plenty of skill to be employed in deciding how to use the dice, how to tackle the scenario, how to outwit your opponent, etc. Complex, fiddly rules do not mean more tactical depth necessarily, just more faffing and potential arguing with opponents. Roll on version 2. :D
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I don't mind these changes, they appeal to me. I dislike the fiddle of determining which figures can fight and which cannot - it's open to interpretation/exploitation and is pretty dumb, so quite happy with that one. Streamlining is what I would call it, rather than simplification. There's still plenty of skill to be employed in deciding how to use the dice, how to tackle the scenario, how to outwit your opponent, etc. Complex, fiddly rules do not mean more tactical depth necessarily, just more faffing and potential arguing with opponents. Roll on version 2. :D
Absolutely on the fighting. If the whole unit is eligeble to be killed by the combat, it makes more sense that they all fight.
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If the Arthur book was designed with version 2 in mind, that was £30 I seem to remember, so maybe that's the new price point? It was hardback and nicely done, bit expensive if you ask me, but just about tolerable. It did only contain six factions. If the new books contain more factions and a proportionate price increase, sheesh, that will be a shock. I reckon I am happy to pay for a book what I would normally pay for a box of soldiers, so around £25 to £30 seems okay. Any more than that I tend to grumble a lot. Then not buy it. If the price is higher than £30, then I really do think they will have shot themselves in the foot. From VS range of course. ;)
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Yeah I heard around a tenner for the rulebook, which is absolutely fine.
The Arthur book was £27, just checked it on their site. So I reckon that's a reasonable ball park estimate to make. If the extra factions bump up the price much, well.....? I suppose having the boards printed separately adds somewhat to the printing cost. I guess we will find out for sure soon enough, but I hope it's not too much. I don't want their pricing to kill my favourite game (already been through that trauma with WHFB). :'( :'( :'(
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I don't like losing side by side.
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I don't like losing side by side.
The only thing I can think of is there must have been some sort of cheesy tournament move that was possible with Side By Side; it seems perfectly 'flavourful' otherwise so why get rid of it.
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There could also be confusion over some battle board abilities - did they apply to one or both units, that kind of confusion. I sort of liked the lord going in with his hearthguard, heroic action style. I might miss this rule, it depends on the new beefed up warlord, maybe he doesn't need babysitters any more?
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Surely it means the Warlord loses his bodyguard as well when he initiates combat.
I can't see a single change I like.
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Side by Side does cause a lot of complications. When the defender spends fatigue he has to say which unit he spends on, When he causes hit he has to allocate them, when he uses Saga abilities he has to designate one unit (mostly).
A Warlord can still benefit from a bodyguard when charging. Use 'follow me' to move the bodyguard near the opponent, then charge in with your Warlord as part of the same activation, who will now be close to the bodyguard and able to sacrifice them if he takes hits.
So while I'm not fond of the change , I can see whey they did it as this is the most complex area in the rules and often a cause of head scratching.
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Agreed but for seasoned players those kinks/issues were ironed out years ago.
Personally, as a defender, if the warlord has 2 or more bodyguard, it almost always makes sense to not attack the warlord, the bodyguard are generally lower armour, the Warlord has Resilience and, whatever the sacrifice rule is called, so with 2 bodyguard you need to guarantee 4 uncancelled hits to kill him. Which is 6 hits on average after defence dice. So that decision is almost always clear and make the fatigue and ability allocation clear.
At this stage I cant see me using the new rules in my own no-tourney gaming group. I'll be OldSaga'ing
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Agreed but for seasoned players those kinks/issues were ironed out years ago.
Yep.
At this stage I cant see me using the new rules in my own no-tourney gaming group. I'll be OldSaga'ing.
I think this will affect some of the tourney players too. To play in the tourney, do you need to bring the "new" battleboard for your faction? Are you hamstrung if you want to play with your old one?
None of the changes were necessary and/or fixes for broken aspects of the game. Even the "skulking single warrior in the woods generating a Saga dice" wasn't a game breaker as some suggest. Either deal with the consequences of an extra dice, or hunt the fellow down and kill him. That's part of the tactical considerations of the game.
I'll be OldSaga'ing it too.
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Has an actual date been announced for when this is being released?
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"early 2018" according to an interview with Alex Buchel; so I would anticipate sometime around Salute 2018 (April'ish) possibly shortly before.
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To be honest, I don't know if I will invest in the second edition, as I have spent a lot of money in first edition already. My intention is to see how the new edition works and then, if I consider the changes are an actual improvement, will decide if I switch editions. Of course, the inclusion of Samurais battleboards for Saga 2nd Ed could act as a powerful incentive! lol
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Of course, the inclusion of Samurais battleboards for Saga 2nd Ed could act as a powerful incentive! lol
Same here :) I'm also waiting for some ancient struggles, as I'd love to make small Numidian force to harras Romans or Carthaginians :P
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Same here :) I'm also waiting for some ancient struggles, as I'd love to make small Numidian force to harras Romans or Carthaginians :P
Well, Troy is mentioned specifically in their stuff, so Rome isn't very far off from that with things.
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Bizarrely, Warlord have just announced last week it's carrying Saga. They must have known the change was coming before they got stock in. :?
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Probably just to push their own range of figures - they bought Saxon Miniatures and now sell them on their site, along with a few GB plastic sets, which will all be perfectly useable in the new ruleset.
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Northern Tempest Saga Podcast have recorded their latest episode with an interview with Alex Buchel about the new Version of Saga
https://player.fm/series/northern-tempest
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New book out Early February, hopefully that means released at Vapnartak
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Any news on price?
That will be the make or break for me.
It’s always been quoted as £10/10€ for the rule book, but as for the period books, don’t know, I’d assume about the same as the A&A book.
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I think people who based their force on 20mm bases and other gamier things to gain an advantage will not be happy, but tbh, I think that is the point of the new rules. Removing crutches people had to aid their gameplay and providing an even playing field with respect to the main rules. A lot of the things people complain about vis a vis things like movement does not mean ones tactics are being impacted, it means that exploits in the rules are being removed.... this is a good thing except for the 'win at all costs' crowd.
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So I might have missed it, but is there anything so far in this new rule set about an official play-this-way base size? round 25mm looked to me like it was the preferred way to play the old set, at least because that is the size the gripping beast saga figures came with, but all of mine are 20mm squares, not for gaming advantage (hard to base for an advantage for a game you have never played) but because that is what the first sets I bought came with.
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They very cleverly took base size off the table, now combat is unit v unit. 20, 25, 30mm it’s all the same now. There was a notorious guy at our local who ran Joms. 5 points of warriors in 4 10 man units with Dane ax. He based on round 20s, could get four models deep into combat. He’s not happy with the new rules 😂
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He sounds like a fun guy... ::)
Serves him right.
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They very cleverly took base size off the table, now combat is unit v unit. 20, 25, 30mm it’s all the same now. There was a notorious guy at our local who ran Joms. 5 points of warriors in 4 10 man units with Dane ax. He based on round 20s, could get four models deep into combat. He’s not happy with the new rules 😂
How do you determine how many models in a unit attack with the new rules? Is it the whole unit?
Never played SAGA, I've just watched a rather good series of how-to-play youtube videos though (old edition), so I am starting to understand the rules.
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He sounds like a fun guy... ::)
Serves him right.
LOL! 😂 😆 🤣
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How do you determine how many models in a unit attack with the new rules? Is it the whole unit?
Never played SAGA, I've just watched a rather good series of how-to-play youtube videos though (old edition), so I am starting to understand the rules.
So it used to be, the attacker begins to engage base to base with the closest unit. 2 attackers could touch a defenders base. Then they next models would move to the next closest. They all move 6" (infantry). Those that could not go base to base in 6" would pile in the back. So the idea is that it should be 3 rows deep or about 2" away. But since SAGA has no set base size, people would game the game by using the smallest allowable base size, 20mm and try to get in 4 rows. Since most people use 25 or 30mm bases, it meant that the bases gave an advantage, until the authors did a FAQ and said 3 deep at most. However, unscrupulous players often failed to mention this to unsuspecting opponents, especially in tourneys, and would still try to get an advantage.
Now, you move your first model to engage and the remaining attackers must group within a certain distance and the entire unit fights the other entire unit.
People are complaining, well some people, that this destroys tactics, but they seem to confuse 'gaming the game' with actual tactics.
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Now, you move your first model to engage and the remaining attackers must group within a certain distance and the entire unit fights the other entire unit.
People are complaining, well some people, that this destroys tactics, but they seem to confuse 'gaming the game' with actual tactics.
Sounds like a sensible change to me!
So a unit of 8 warriors would get 8 attacks, regardless of how many are in base contact?
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Sounds like a sensible change to me!
So a unit of 8 warriors would get 8 attacks, regardless of how many are in base contact?
Yes, but even in 1e, all units did not have to be in base to base. Once the models that could go base to base were exhausted, the remaining models just need to be within 2" to support. Now all of that is gone, it's unit v unit.
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There was a degree of tactics in 1e, if you had spread your guys out in a line, to cover space. Then these were attacked from an end, the attacker was likely to be able to get all his men to fight while some of yours were left hanging.
But to claim that as your guys are on smaller bases you can cram more in, it's pretty bad. But different sized bases can lead to this, we had players with figures on 20mm squares as they came from WAB armies, and we had others on 2ps (26mm rounds) and this could sometimes seem to cause differences.
Removing ambiguities is good. Going too far so that a unit that is strung out in a line can suddenly compress so that all its troops can fight is a bit odd.
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There was a degree of tactics in 1e, if you had spread your guys out in a line, to cover space. Then these were attacked from an end, the attacker was likely to be able to get all his men to fight while some of yours were left hanging.
But to claim that as your guys are on smaller bases you can cram more in, it's pretty bad. But different sized bases can lead to this, we had players with figures on 20mm squares as they came from WAB armies, and we had others on 2ps (26mm rounds) and this could sometimes seem to cause differences.
Removing ambiguities is good. Going too far so that a unit that is strung out in a line can suddenly compress so that all its troops can fight is a bit odd.
Agreed, but you cant deploy in a line any longer.
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No it's not.
These are inanimate toys that are unable to move themselves.
In reality, what they are meant to represent , are living breathing human beings who, when they see their mate is being bundled by a group of others, will pile in to help.
They will not stay strung out in a line.
Remember, this is a skirmish game NOT a mass battle game.
That line of 8 warriors represents a line of 8 warriors. Not 250.
If someone is standing in a line and their mate 3 people away is attacked they are not going to stay in position. They are going to move round and join the fight.
And that's what the 'one in all in' rule is meant to represent - two small and amorphous groups mixing in and fighting.
It totally makes sense and is something Lion Rampant got right. It's one of the better changes to the second edition.
In any event iirc, the new rules also don't allow deployment in a long line any longer.
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So you have to deploy in a blob now? Oh well will speed things up as movement trays will be useful.
As to whether the troops at the end of the line should be able to pile in or not. Well in the scale of the game, they are more than a move away from the combat. You can argue that the move distances to space covered by the figures is wrong, but these are fixed within the game. If you have choosen to cover ground, then there is a downside to this. It does depend on the time period a turn is meant to represent, and how organised the troops are. Ultimately its what it is, and hopefully simplifies and speeds up the game. Any changes that remove gamey options are good. There were plenty of bits of Saga that were more complex than they needed to be, so hopefully the new version cleans these up and makes the game flow more smoothly.
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In any event iirc, the new rules also don't allow deployment in a long line any longer.
Are you saying the new rules actually ban deploying in a line? Where did you hear this?
So what formations can you now legally adopt under the rules? What happens with a 4 figure Heathguard unit?
I don't recall hearing this in the authors podcasts or in the various written reports but maybe I missed it?
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Are you saying the new rules actually ban deploying in a line? Where did you hear this?
So what formations can you now legally adopt under the rules? What happens with a 4 figure Heathguard unit?
I don't recall hearing this in the authors podcasts or in the various written reports but maybe I missed it?
I’ll find it and post up, I want to say it was the Saga forum
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You can still deploy in a line but these is a maximum distance between the first and last minis in that line. All it does is stop a 12 man levy unit being strung halfway across the table as as screen.
Have the changes to archery been mentioned yet? Iiirc an 8 dice maximum attack (to limit, presumably, the effectiveness of big mounted hearthgard archers)
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You can still deploy in a line but these is a maximum distance between the first and last minis in that line. All it does is stop a 12 man levy unit being strung halfway across the table as as screen.
Have the changes to archery been mentioned yet? Iiirc an 8 dice maximum attack (to limit, presumably, the effectiveness of big mounted hearthgard archers)
You’re absolutely correct, I meant no t in be long 12 man levy line. I think that’s what the other poster meant, not literally no lines of placement. But you described it better, a line as long as the first and last are within a certain range. But this would really only apply to say one line of four models with little to no space in between. Iirc it is within S, so four inches.
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The 2nd Edition is up for pre order on the Beasts site:
https://www.grippingbeast.co.uk/NEW_SAGA_2_Rules__Source_books--category--419.html
Main Rule Book £10
Viking age Book £30
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And with that £30 price tag I'm out.
To be fair A&A was £30 so not unexpected.
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Word is the books will release Feb 12! I'll be picking them up. I really love SAGA and after 7 years out, I'm pleased they are revising the edition. Unlike some others, here and in other groups, I don't see this as some cynical money grab.
People often forget that unlike Games Workshop or other companies, Studio Tomahawk does not produce miniatures, only rule sets. So they don't subsidize rules through mini sales.
https://www.grippingbeast.co.uk/NEW_SAGA_2_Rules__Source_books--category--419.html
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That book also covers all 12 Viking age warbands.
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There are 15 warbands in the original book plus supplements (17 if you include Skraelings and Steppe Tribes)
I guess Byzantines should logically move into the Crusades book.
What are the 12 included in the new Viking Age book?
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I think they are not cutting factions as combining some like Breton and Norman’s. That said, some will move I think like Rus Princes
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There are 15 warbands in the original book plus supplements (17 if you include Skraelings and Steppe Tribes)
I guess Byzantines should logically move into the Crusades book.
What are the 12 included in the new Viking Age book?
Gripping Beast posted: The Anglo-Saxons...The Welsh..The Normans..The Vikings...The Anglo-Danes....The Last Romans..(Byzantines!) The Norse-Gaels.....
The Irish....The Pagan Rus......The Scots.....The Carolingians....
The Jomsvikings...
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Gripping Beast posted: The Anglo-Saxons...The Welsh..The Normans..The Vikings...The Anglo-Danes....The Last Romans..(Byzantines!) The Norse-Gaels.....
The Irish....The Pagan Rus......The Scots.....The Carolingians....
The Jomsvikings...
That's awesome. I think Alex said on the Northern Tempest podcast that they will do like A&A, and have one board work for more than one faction, like Normans will also include Bretons.
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That's awesome. I think Alex said on the Northern Tempest podcast that they will do like A&A, and have one board work for more than one faction, like Normans will also include Bretons.
Yes, you’re right, I think he did.
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I'm very happy that they want to keep their universes discrete, and not mix Crusaders with Norse Gaels, etc. This always seemed like too much of an anachronism to me.
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Hmm. So no Bretons, Franks are now just Carolignians, no Rus Princes, no Strathclyde Welsh.
I'd imagine the Romano-Brits will be distinct from Byzantines.
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Will be interested to see what Norman / Breton combined battle board looks like, as the current ones are hugely different, and I have a Breton force. Although I do have some troops to make it more Norman, so perhaps they will get painted.
But they have kept Anglo-Saxons and Anglo-Danes as two distinct factions.
As to the price of the books - £10 for the core rules is very cheap. £30 for a force book is not cheap, but if its a nice book (and the Crescent and Cross one certainly was) then its hardly extortionate either. Go and check the prices of GW books and the frequency they come out.
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Hmm. So no Bretons, Franks are now just Carolignians, no Rus Princes, no Strathclyde Welsh.
I'd imagine the Romano-Brits will be distinct from Byzantines.
Alex already confirmed that Bretons will share a board with Normans. I think same with Welsh and Strathclyde, Rus Princes are admittedly anachronisms to the time period.
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Studio Tomahawk are previewing the new battle boards
https://www.facebook.com/studiotomahawk/posts/1283863478382360
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I got the new rules and Viking Age universe book yesterday. A really nice product, seems very well put together and readable. Can't wait to give it a go.
One thing I was surprised about was that I couldn't see any scenarios (apart from the 'basic one in the rulebook) I expected some period specific ones in the universe book. It's not a huge problem as I am capable of devising my own and have the old books and could use those but seemed a big omission (unless I'm just being blind)
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Had heard there was only 1 in the main book, but had expected a bunch more in the period-specific ones too. Actually rather liked that idea, as they would be able to have something fitting for the period, so some more focussed on heroic duels, others on looting, taking territory, destroying buildings, escorting pilgrims or whatever. In addition, that would have given some extra value to collecting the different books.
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Scenarios are due to be released in 'The Book of Battles' which is the next thing out IIRC.
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Scenarios are due to be released in 'The Book of Battles' which is the next thing out IIRC.
The GW model...
That makes sense...and to be fair there is a lot of content in the book despite the lack of scenarios.
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who is cynic?
Those who start work and try to offer games, and that costs money and time. translators, proofreaders ... printer etc.
Or those who do not melt anything ... just criticize in their couch ... those who would always like to have any free ... but just have to propose some scenarios for everyone.
Tomahawk studio people do not take money. this is not our job. Money earned on a game can pay the next one ...
so saying we are doing this for the money is really cynic .
Fred
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We do not force anyone to buy our games. But if you like the first edition, it means that what we are working for is a success. Thank you.
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A scenario in the Viking age book would have been nice, especially a raid on a monastery.
But I can wait for the battles book.
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I should also add that the Viking Age universe book is so nice I'm likely to pick up one or two of the others further down the line. And the battle book will also probably be bought.
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We do not force anyone to buy our games. But if you like the first edition, it means that what we are working for is a success. Thank you.
Gripping Beast have pre-orders at £10 for the Rule Book and £ 30 for the Vikings supplement.
Is there really only one scenario in there? That would not seem to be good value for money.
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Gripping Beast have pre-orders at £10 for the Rule Book and £ 30 for the Vikings supplement.
Is there really only one scenario in there? That would not seem to be good value for money.
It's a nice full colour hardback book with 12 factions and 12 battleboards. If you tot up the supplements from Saga1 that it covers it's not bad value at all. Especially if you compare it to other premium products. I also think that £10 for the core rules represents good value.
Seems like I stirred up a hornets nest about the scenarios!
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I'm going to take a wild guess here, and suggest you probably don't work in public relations...
Ha! Judging from the tone of your messsages here and on other threads I’d hazard a guess you don’t either.
Production value is good in both books. Better, I feel than first edition.
A shame there’s no scenarios but it’s really not a deal breaker. I enjoy the new rules they’re streamlined and nuanced and remove the power gaming elements that could be abused before. It still however feels like Saga. I’m looking forward to playing a few more games and getting to grips with these changes.
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Huh, I figured one of the advantages of the new edition would at least be the consolidation of most things into a single book (bar the core rules of course). After the first few supplements, games sometimes involved bringing the book with your faction, the book with the core rules and then possibly yet another book for additional options like the banner. But now, you'll have to bring 3 books to any game (unless playing the one scenario)?
Anybody have any further information on this book? Its very existence rather passed me by (or I simply completely forgot). A handful of scenarios doesn't make for much of a book; will it also contain a campaign system perhaps?
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Huh, I figured one of the advantages of the new edition would at least be the consolidation of most things into a single book (bar the core rules of course). After the first few supplements, games sometimes involved bringing the book with your faction, the book with the core rules and then possibly yet another book for additional options like the banner. But now, you'll have to bring 3 books to any game (unless playing the one scenario)?
Anybody have any further information on this book? Its very existence rather passed me by (or I simply completely forgot). A handful of scenarios doesn't make for much of a book; will it also contain a campaign system perhaps?
In the interview with Alex Buchel (I missed this originally havr had to Google it!) He says:
We also intend to publish the Book of Battles, which will be an ideal companion to the rulebook. It’s a collection of scenarios, additional rules and gameplay options for players who want to explore Saga in different forms, with scenario-driven play, campaigns or multi-player games.
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There's a very informative interview with Alex on Northern Tempest Podcast
https://www.buzzsprout.com/69172
that gives some great insight into whats planned. The Book of Battles is due out later ub the year (November?).
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Well I picked up both books last night and they are lovely artefacts and certainly seem to have moderated some of the more extreme elements of the battle boards without losing too much individuality for the factions.
However.....
‘So Ragnar, what can you tell us about the Scots?
The Scots live in an arid and rocky land...’
I don’t think Ragnar has really been to Scotland or Ulster....
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I was about to say that I enjoy designing my own scenarios and therefore I have no use for the Book of Battles, but truth is that I will buy it when it is released. Yep. I have a serious issue of lack of impulse-buying control.
By the way, what I would really, really like, is that each hard-copy would include a one time use only code to download a digital copy of the rules and/or scenarios -when released-. I don't mind to have the hard copies, but I am fond of tablet-friendly PDFs.
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If the Book of Battles is generic and can be used with all the setting books, I think its a wonderfull idea to publish it as a seperate book. If its priced as the rulebook its a definite purchase, if its priced as a setting book its a maybe for me.
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Yes I would have rather preferred a collection of scenarios too... but where is written you cannot still use the old ones?
This could be a limit for new players, but for the old foxes I think not.
Ciao
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Whether you like the new edition or not, can we remain civil with each other?
Cheers
Nick
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Is there anything on this thread that you consider to be uncivil? On a scale of 1-10 I can find nothing I'd rate above a 3.
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Is there anything on this thread that you consider to be uncivil? On a scale of 1-10 I can find nothing I'd rate above a 3.
I believe some posts have been removed
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I believe some posts have been removed
Correct. Incivilty expunged. LAF’s prime directive has never really changed that much you know. You can say pretty much whatever you like here as long as it’s not rudeness or personal animus towards another member. As long as we all stick with that, all shall be well :)
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Anyhoo, the reports of the new edition look very promising! My books are in the mail and I should have them in about ten days!!!
Now that people are starting to get theirs, what are your thoughts about the revision?
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Gripping Beast have pre-orders at £10 for the Rule Book and £ 30 for the Vikings supplement.
Is there really only one scenario in there? That would not seem to be good value for money.
This is an interesting point. I say that because a lot of rulebooks in the past gave you only the rules and perhaps the points for different forces - the scenarios were up to the players. To look at historical references and either recreate them, or base the concept of a scenario on them.
For me, SAGA is such a relatively simple system that you should be able to come up with your own scenarios and objectives easy enough. If not, and you have the old books, I dare say you can just use those.
I kind of despair at times that people think you can only play by scenarios that are in books for the rules system. Seems to be the way of the gaming world at the moment though.
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My set is in the mail, so I don't know how it works yet. However 1st edition scenarios shouldn't be too difficult to adapt to 2nd edition.
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I fully agree with McFonz.
However the first edition scenarios will transfer over with little to no fuss.
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The scenarios were perhaps the most problematic part of the game. I play in a good number of tournaments a year, maybe 6 or 7, and it's obvious from a tournament (balance and fairness) some scenarios dont measure up. So if they are going to take the time to make the game right and it takes separate releases, get the game right and go for separate releases.
Remember, to get this all in one book would mean we would not be now getting the rules, but when the scenarios are finished....
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We do not force anyone to buy our games. But if you like the first edition, it means that what we are working for is a success. Thank you.
Hey mate, I totally understand where you're coming from. And comparisons with Games Workshop are unfair since they also charge exorbitant prices for their models and terrain.
But it's not a good or professional look to be defending yourself online in this fashion. Let your fans defend your products and release/pricing models for you. There's plenty of Studio Tomahawk fans out there that will be willing to do so! Engaging in a slinging match just drags you down to the same level as your critics.
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I'd agree with that but at the same time I think you also have to consider this is an industry made up of small businesses, some of them run on a part time basis because they wouldn't pay the bills on their own. Many of those working behind the scenes are of 'the arts' - writers, sculptors, commissioners of pieces.
I think people need to respect that whilst you would want everyone to act in a professional sense you would see from a large company, that some of these guys are incredibly passionate about what they do and incredibly vulnerable to slurs etc as well.
Studio Tomahawk couldn't exist if they were working for nothing. I personally think it is totally unreasonable to expect a free new edition. By my maths, if you had all of the books from the viking age from the last edition, this one is 50% of the cost. So I think they have been mindful and reduced the outlay. £40 is a fair price IMHO. It's around the same, or less even, than a new console/computer game, the average price of a board game (although there are plenty that are more), two and a bit trips to the cinema, football(soccer) ticket is £25-30, theatre is not far off the same, even low priced live music gigs are around the same £25-30. Yet this will give you hours of fun, 12 different factions to use if so desired, and different ways to game those factions. I have paid £25 to watch my football team get beaten, £15ish to watch a movie that I hoped was going to be better. This is hours with friends, sharing jokes and laughter and having a game at the same time - priceless. My wife has even said she will play her first ever wargame with SAGA as she likes Vikings!
I'm buying mine through Annie at Bad Squido Games to collect from Salute, so I have a while to wait yet but I know it will be worth it.
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Received my ruleset yesterday (bought it from Footsore, as I couldn't resist the temptation of the two free minis!), and first impression is good. I like how they have organized the book; the layout makes it easier to use than v1. I want to try the rules as soon as I can. First I need to finish re-basing my Anglo-Danes and Vikings, though. Not that the game requires it! It is that I have become fond of round bases, but I had my armies based in squares!
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Got my copies of the core rules and the viking book today. The core rules have some of my photos in, so it was gratis. Have to say the production values are excellent. I’ve only played Saga a few times so can’t really compare or get upset about what has changed from V1, but certainly intend to give it a go with the new version. They are very handsomely produced publications.
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Got my copies of the core rules and the viking book today. The core rules have some of my photos in, so it was gratis. Have to say the production values are excellent. I’ve only played Saga a few times so can’t really compare or get upset about what has changed from V1, but certainly intend to give it a go with the new version. They are very handsomely produced publications.
Yeah, one of the best mini porn books out there, imo.