Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Pikes, Muskets and Flouncy Shirts => Topic started by: olicana on October 04, 2017, 10:39:30 AM
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Well it's that time of year again. We're off to Derby Worlds to put a demo game on this weekend.
This year our game will be Cerignola 1503. As games go it's not as big as we usually do there, partly down to transport, but there should be enough to make it interesting to look at.
For those who can't make it, and for those that can and want the blurb on tap, the game is described here, with scenario notes, OOB and plenty of pics.
https://olicanalad.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/derby-worlds-cerignola-1503.html (https://olicanalad.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/derby-worlds-cerignola-1503.html)
If you are passing, remember to say hi.
James
Ilkley Lads
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Very timely. This is going to be one of the games I run at Little Wars next Spring. I especially appreciate your OoB as I'm currently working out mine. Do you have a source for the breakdown of the Italians or is it more of a case of educated guesswork?
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The info I have for this battle is pretty sparse.
The best single account I have is in Gerald de Gaury's 'The Grand Captain' (I managed to pick up a signed copy to 'Diana' dated 1955 for £2 on ebay), a good book for Gonsalvo's actions. He gave me the commander names for the forces and their relative deployment. He doesn't give numbers or composition in any detail for most things - E.g. merely referring to the Landsknechts as 7 regiments, though no one else refers to them at all in my other sources - and he gives overall numbers for the battle at about 8000 a side.
So, yes. An educated guess of sorts. There would be plenty of cavalry for the Italians and some foot. I'm more inclined to crossbow over arquebus for southern Italians at this date but I' short on these and Spanish supplied arquebus is not out of the question for this particular force.
One thing Gaury does mention, and which I didn't go for, is to do with the cavalry numbers for the Spanish. He says that following the assault on Ruvo earlier in 1503 Gonsalvo captured 700 horses on which he mounted 'selected' infantry and this gave him parity of numbers with the French in this arm. I'm pretty sure that, given the fact they were infantry, and the particular circumstances of this battle, I'd have dismounted them again on 28th April 1503.
Gaury mentions that the Spanish infantry formed up in six bodies with gaps the cavalry could attack through. Other sources put the cavalry on the flanks. I've seen some set ups with the Spanish / Italian cavalry on the extreme flanks and outside of the earthwork. Who knows? For me it woks better with them on the wings.
Another thing of which I'm unsure is the make up of the French infantry. There were 3000 - 4000 of these, mainly Gascons but my best description is 'Gascons and other infantry'. I'm confident that the Gascons were all crossbowmen, as this seems to have been their 'national weapon', but I'm unsure of the rest. In the past, I've allotted French pike to Coligny's battalia but, to me, given the army's origin and the date of 1503, it seems too early for French pike so, without evidence to the contrary, this time I've plumbed for all crossbows in this battalia (though this has dictated arquebus, due to figure availability, for Colonna's mob).
Given the contradictions and lack of firm numbers, in any of my sources, I'm pretty sure you can do as you please within reason. To be honest, it's one of the reasons I like this period: Your collection becomes very elastic in what it can be made to represent. It's not a period for bean counters because when the maths is done you can ask, so how many peas would that many beans be?
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Looks great. The system seems interesting -- I've not used the Warlord Games rules because I don't care much for order writing. Do Pike and Shotte use order writing?
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Re French Infantry I've been tempted for a while to do some med/heavy infantry with guisarmes and bills, a few sources mention this and there's this image of the siege of Genoa - though I'm not sure if these chaps are definitely French.
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Hi KM,
No, you state orders verbally - "the line will advance to the crest of the hill" - then dice to see if your orders are carried out. They are very simple rules and no paperwork is required. The Cerignola game has no roster sheets whatsoever and pens will not be in evidence.
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Hi Stuart,
I've seen these troops pictured elsewhere. I too think this is probably what 'other' generic non-missile infantry looked like. In the picture you put up the infantry in the foreground carry oval shields very reminiscent of Italian infantry of the early period. Perry miniatures do figures like this in their their 15th C European armies range. At some point I'll buy a hundred or so, but equip them with bills. I'll probably keep the shields as they will be more useful as Italian city militia than early pre-pike French, but they will double up nicely when required.
(https://www.perry-miniatures.com/images/IMG_4366.JPG)
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Ah yes I forgot about those and with your interchangeable flags they're French or Italian in an instant !
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Thanks very much for that, olicana.
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Just posting to say a thank you to everyone who dropped by at the Cerignola 1503 game at Derby Worlds over the weekend. I hope you got something out of it.
It was a pleasure to meet you all,
James Roach
The Ilkley Lads
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Saw the game....bloody superb
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Ditto - thought it was the best there.
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Pics of the game at the show can be found here:
http://olicanalad.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/derby-worlds-thanks-to-everyone-who.html (http://olicanalad.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/derby-worlds-thanks-to-everyone-who.html)
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-j-RKZHXwd-I/Wdx5E-5430I/AAAAAAAAMUI/EEZCwQdIkh8c8oZCg8XiEbZwmqSf7_GAwCEwYBhgL/s640/IMG_1589.JPG)
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Great looking set up James :-*
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Very very nice!
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That scenario looks wonderful, thank you for sharing!