Yep, following that on FB. Have had the figures for years, just need a set of rules to play. Apparently Sarissa are doing suitable buildings, hopefully they will complement those of Warbases.
Completely confused now. I was under the impression that this would be a new range of figures? Never seen that - beautiful- Roman civilian/gladiator before, except recently on FaceBook.
Or did you mean you already have suitable figures for such a game?
Each figure you buy comes with a unique, yes unique, stat card and it uses coins, which you get with the figure as well, to represent other options like a throwing blade or gladiator buddy.
I'm afraid that's put me off a bit.
Correct, I have been collecting suitable figures for Ancient Rome Gangs for many years. I think I have 6-8 gangs each of 12-16 figures plus other Civilians. IIRC a couple of my gangs are Vigiles to attempt restoration of order.
Cool. Are they somewhere we can see them?
From what I have heard the figure count for GoR is fairly low - like 5 or so minis per gang.
Not sure how I post here. I have just posted one to the FS FB page.
James, I admit it does seem like a collectable "bare" lead miniatures game James, and I have my reservations too, but I don't think it will work exactly that way.
Regardless Footsore have said that they will be just 'normal' 28mm miniatures which I suppose we can do with whatever we like.
an idea which has been the subject of several very creative and original homemade projects, hijacked and commercialised like this, and turned into a 'system'
Well the figures do look very nice.
Obviously though, several LAFers, including NevisFr, rumacara and Poiter50 have been building their own gangs of Rome for a long while now, including much creative converting of figures.
Is it just me, or is it therefore slightly irksome to see an idea which has been the subject of several very creative and original homemade projects, hijacked and commercialised like this, and turned into a 'system'... ?
Appreciate nobody has a monopoly on good ideas, and perhaps the whole 'Gangs of Rome' thing is a well established sub-genre which has been around for a while and had passed me by, except for the guys who have been charting their own excellent projects here on LAF.
But it leaves a bit of a bad taste in the mouth to me :?
Well the figures do look very nice.
Obviously though, several LAFers, including NevisFr, rumacara and Poiter50 have been building their own gangs of Rome for a long while now, including much creative converting of figures.
Is it just me, or is it therefore slightly irksome to see an idea which has been the subject of several very creative and original homemade projects, hijacked and commercialised like this, and turned into a 'system'... ?
Appreciate nobody has a monopoly on good ideas, and perhaps the whole 'Gangs of Rome' thing is a well established sub-genre which has been around for a while and had passed me by, except for the guys who have been charting their own excellent projects here on LAF.
But it leaves a bit of a bad taste in the mouth to me :?
Just me then :)
I do understand there are lots of points of inspiration for this kind of thing out there. It just feels like another example of someone setting out to 'own' an idea that various other people already had. Happens in wargaming all the time I'm sure. Just my innate, rebellious, freedom-loving attitude I guess... ;) I always enjoy seeing what wargamers and modellers create out of their own imaginations and talents. I don't enjoy seeing wargamers being spoon-fed packaged products. I appreciate though, that 90% of wargamers seem to LOVE being spoon-fed, judging from the huge popularity of branded 'systems' here and elsewhere... )
For many people, it's a golden age of wargaming where every good idea and setting is turned into a product that can be bought and played without having to do anything more than spend money. Personally, I used to like seeing people creating things for themselves... I understand it's a minority view though...
Richard, thank you for your kind words and point of view. :)
I´m very curious about this project from Footsore but with some reserves.
Maybe some miniatures will be of my interest, maybe the rules, maybe nothing.
Lets see what they come up with. ;)
Definitely not a "hijack". An over-reaction. Do you protest when companies start commercializing other eras? Napoleonics, for example?
I personally like the concept of the game and do not it find particularly derivative, or borrowed from previous projects, commercial or personal,
Well - as above - I would contend that if, for two or three years, various wargamers, here and elsewhere, have been building their own Roman street gangs - a hitherto unknown wargames genre or setting - and sharing these projects online, and then a business comes along with a branded commercial product called 'Gangs of Rome', that's about as derivative as you can get. It's almost certainly borrowed from the creative ideas and work of those hobbyists.
It's almost certainly borrowed from the creative ideas and work of those hobbyists.
What Captain Blood is arguing is that nobody should make a commercial product of any thing that some hobbyist, or group of hobbyists, have ever done on their own. Have I got that right?
If they were to do that, I'm sure there are other genres that are an easier cash in.
Does anybody really believe that any of the small companies are "cashing in"?
Where are these threads that have made such significant advances to the hobby that there is such cause for concern? I have a vague recollection making an arena in a tin (great idea: I hope the Footsore biscuits are vanilla creams) and another about Jugulla (which for some reason didn't generate any fuss) and maybe something about running gladitorial houses.
;D
If people are interested, the Combined Arms Podcast did a segment with one of the authors (Andy Hobday) on their most recent episode. It should provide a little more explanation as to the idea and the product itself.
his not my job :s
this pic from the footsore's Facebook
I was quite excited by the prospect of this game but some of the stuff I have read over the last couple of days has really put me off. What was pegged to me as a skirmish 'war'game about gang fights in ancient Rome now seems to be more a collectable tournament style game.
It has been confirmed that the stat cards for the fighters are randomly generated and have enough variables that no two should be the same. Somehow these will all be balanced against a points cost to field with coins and such but to be fair, it put me off enough to not delve much further into. The variance might be tiny and add to the overall gameplay but I really dislike randomisation in games. I stopped playing Magic or any of those Clix games long ago because I dislike the pay to win mentality. I have a limited budget, as I suspect most will, and assertions that the skill comes from what you do with your fighters isn't a ringing endorsement.
I'll keep an eye on the game when it's released and have a read of the rules which are being released as a free pdf. As it stands though, something that has gone from a purchase has gone to a hard pass.
Weird, I taught a unit on the Byzantines (or Eastern Roman Empire if you prefer) in my art history class a few days ago, and touched on the Nika riots. I thought it might be fun to game... and here is this thread :)
I, for one, can use the mat and the buildings. If only for that, I would be ecstatic. But also the figures look terrific. That is another plus. They are useful for different games, not only Gangs of Rome. So, regardless the rules, Footsore can count with me spending my money in their GoR range. However, as the rules will be for free in their website, in PDF format, I will give them a try too. I am fortunate of not give a damm about tournaments and competitive gaming; don't care if 'coins' are common, uncommon or rare. What I care is about quality miniatures. If I don't like the rules, I will use the figures with whatever other game I fancy. Therefore, in my book and for what have been shown so far, Footsore is delivering a product that I will be more than happy to buy.
One would almost think there was a counter productive campaign occurring.
Have to totally agree with your comments. I have been amazed at the negativity appearing on this topic with the scant information prior to release. One would almost think there was a counter productive campaign occurring.
And – as many other companies do – they believe (right or wrong) that the minis will sell better it they have a ruleset embedded with them. Which may be true, it's true for some other ranges...
...but I'm always bewildered when people say that they are "painting an army for [insert rule name here] ruleset"
...I believe than when you paint an army it's because you want to have and to play this army; so you will be able to use it and play it with any ruleset. But that's just me...
I agree. It seems mostly to stem from some people getting their collective noses bent out of shape "because we were here first" or similar. Shameful behavior, really.
What Captain Blood is arguing is that nobody should make a commercial product of any thing that some hobbyist, or group of hobbyists, have ever done on their own. Have I got that right?
There's really no need to get uptight about it. My opinion (just my opinion, which I'm allowed to express I'm sure you'd accept) is that this is an example of a company attempting to take ownership of an idea in order to productise it, become 'the official version' of that idea, and make money out of it. It happens all the time - yes. Does that make it ethical or okay? No. Not in my book. You may be happy with it. I'm not. Difference of opinion. Okay? :)
Sure, sure, but I think it is just the name that is stirring this up, and really that is just an obvious nod the the movie "Gangs of New York", nothing more.
I read this thread and I thought for a second that TMP had gotten a face-lift. Gentlemen, let's not get negative before we know anything. My interpretation of the game is not at all seeing it as a money grab or cashing in on the ideas of others. I agree that the designers could have been a little clearer on the way the coins would work, but I don't think that they are going with some sort of collectible nonsense at all. I have a feeling that a lot of the negativity could be due to the relationship that the designers have with a certain company, which is a little silly to be honest. One or more of the designers work for the company in a non-miniature related role and are not privy to business practices that we as gamers seem to despise.
Let's see the rules and minis before we get too judgmental, eh?
This. End of discussion.
Nope. This is the end of discussion. :D
Methinks the debate requires a cool-down for all sides involved. This thread will be open again in a couple of days. In the meantime, please, everyone: relax.
EDIT: Okay, let's see how it goes. Thread re-opened.
The figures look pretty nice (previously shown toga-wearers especially) and the buildings look fantastic.
As for the rules, I too am not convinced. Having just read through (I think) all the released information on Footsore's FB page, the vast majority focusses on the coins and random character profiles. The latter I kind of like; it creates an RPG element where rather than choosing optimal abilities creating the most powerful combination possible, you instead have some characters with their own backstory and pros and cons. The problem, of course, is that purchasing more seems the key to then get the optimised little warband instead. The coins (randomly distributed with not just dozens of abilities but scales of rarity too) just make it worse. But then, you can of course make your own tokens instead, pick the preferred items and play that way? Assuming the various items will be in the main rules, as details of what they do and how they work should be written somewhere. Mostly, I'm just curious to see how some collectible element will (or won't) work in the wargaming market. It certainly is an.. interesting decision.
Yes, I understood that the coins have points costs anyway and that it all supposedly balances out. However, a game with apparently hundreds of variations in gang members and dozens of 'coin' upgrades will simply have some combinations that are more potent than others, thus meaning that more purchases will result in a potentially better force.
For what I understand it is not exactly that you get to optimise your warband by buying dozens of figures. Each fighter comes with its own common, uncommon and rare coins, but, if understood correctly the explanations, rare coins are more or less equally powerful in its effects, so your rare coin would be compensated by my rare coin. As both of us would receive a rare with our purchase -they are not randomly spread, but you know that one will be included with your fighter- you actually won't have any incentive in purchasing several figures just for their coins. I think they explained how it works in one of the threads.
Yes, I understood that the coins have points costs anyway and that it all supposedly balances out. However, a game with apparently hundreds of variations in gang members and dozens of 'coin' upgrades will simply have some combinations that are more potent than others, thus meaning that more purchases will result in a potentially better force.
In addition, there are limits concerning the number and types of common, uncommon and rare coins you can use in a gang, so that you may get unusable coins in future purchases too. I don't even care for any sort of competitive element, but the whole idea of not having options available because you either weren't lucky enough to find them or haven't bought enough to eventually get them is just not up my street. Expanding your collection will allow for more options in many wargames (let's add some artillery to that force, get some extra heavy cavalry for them), but not knowing what you buy and opening the door to including increasingly useful things in future packs doesn't work for me. Could have achieved the same by creating some tables with a random marketplace to see what items are available to you and having yet more tables for random character creation. But then, that would not lead to the purchase of additional figures...
- Did not like how they handled criticism on facebook, one guy pointed out that their was no evidence of female fighters and asked if the game was strictly historical(the answer is no) others took issue with the randomisation/interpreted things like some have in this thread, while things did spiral out which was not their fault, their deleting of the question post and subsequent mocking (then subsequently deleted) post afterwards I felt was more than a bit childish especially as it pretty much blanket smeared the guys asking legit questions/levelling legit criticism as trolls.
The FB guy was questioning the split of female and male miniatures that Footsore was producing, claiming it should be more like 75% male, not 50% male. Of course you are free to buy an all male gang, that is up to you, but Footsore chose to produce an even choice of 5 models per gender. I don't think we should be complaining about a company offering a nice choice of female figures - historically accurate or not.
I'm not so worried about the coins either because you could potentially play without them and make up the difference with a whole other gang member instead.
For me this is all about the minis, which look lovely. I've got rules that I enjoy, so unless the GoR rules really blow me away I'll probably just buy it for the toys tbh. Assuming they scale well with my existing figs of course. Here's hoping!Which rules are you using?
Which rules are you using?
I think everyone agrees that the GoR rules do sound quite different from anything we are used to and at first, I thought it stunk of a money making scheme as well, but I now believe that this is merely an innovative game mechanic to spice things up.
No doubt gang warfare in Rome could already be done with a dozen commercially published rulesets but GoR seems to be trying something different and I don't think we should tear them down because of it. Before we go putting the cart before the horse and expel GoR, we should probably wait and see what it plays like when the rules are actually released and if the coins and card stats really do matter all that much.
I had my own conceptions of what a Roman gang game would be like and I admit they were different from what GoR are outlining, but what is stopping us from still doing what WE want to do, as those on LAF have always done. I don't think anyone is going to argue that the potential for the minis and terrain being produced for GoR will not be useful and welcomed for this genre.
I have already asked Footsore if the minis will be available to purchase without the coins, cards etc in a "traditional" manner and they were not dismissive at all, answering that it would be something they would certainly consider in the future.
What I'm trying to say is, it's not the spirit of LAF to shoot down anything, so lets give GoR a fair chance and embrace the prospect of some beautifully sculpted miniatures, in the least.
I do hope for some more in non-action poses and less fancy outfits.
Speaking of which :-*
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/30/1034_24_11_17_10_18_38.jpg)
Wonder what happened to the arm of the guy with the blue cloak
Wonder what happened to the arm of the guy with the blue cloak
Cropping error.
I'm not too savvy with my Ancient Roman costume myself, so does anyone have any understanding of how late these figures could be used to? I was hopingShould work fine, I think the biggest change style wise would be that they would be more likely to wear pants, in the north. :D
they could be used in a fall of Rome scenario in Arthurian Britain being chased about but a bunch of Saxons or Picts.
Should work fine, I think the biggest change style wise would be that they would be more likely to wear pants, in the north. :D
Good point, easy enough to sculpt or perhaps the Barbarians have sprung on them so quickly the poor Romans didn't have enoughOr it's the summer and who wants to be wearing paints in all that heat? It would also be easy enough to paint their bare legs like pants and maybe us putty to add leg cuffs at the end if you So inclined.
time to put their pants on!
I'm not too savvy with my Ancient Roman costume myself, so does anyone have any understanding of how late these figures could be used to? I was hoping they could be used in a fall of Rome scenario in Arthurian Britain being chased about but a bunch of Saxons or Picts.
I don't know anything of the game but, bloody hell that scenery :o
Crap!!! There goes 135 GBP... o_o
I feel your pain, Rui, but I will hold off until after Xmas. Sooo tempting!! Those construction sites, suitable for rival protection rackets.
I am still unsure if I join in...
The gaming material (MDF coins?) look rather cheap which is not translating well to the high price!
The minis are OK, but not better than the Foundry Ancient Civilians:
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1505/0474/products/CIV010_1024x1024.png?v=1497453541)
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1505/0474/products/CIV012_1024x1024.png?v=1497453624)
https://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/ancient-civilians
I will wait for the pdf rulebook!
Biggest problem I can see is getting enough cards. (Even if you only need 5 of them, having the same characters come back to life each new round must become tiresome. Unless you buy more which is the idea I suppose.)
I really like the look of this game. I love Ancient Rome, I would really enjoy getting together the scenery, and painting a couple of gangs of the miniatures. But for me, it's got to be a good game I'll play a lot, and the biggest problem I see is this--
PDF rules will be up for free on December 14. Until then, we only can especulate how the game actually works. Maybe the cards are too few. Maybe the cards are enough; neither we know how the stats and skills will actually interact with each other and if they will, or will not, create übergangs. Even if they do -create powerful synergies, I mean-, there are no guarantees whatsoever that you will get the card that you need, regardless how much you spend, as the skills and stats are randomly generated, i.e. there is not a constant of rarity for the cards themselves that would guarantee you that given a sufficient number of purchases you will get the card that is the perfect match for the card of other of your fighters.
On the other hand, you can always come up with your own stats and skills, customizing your gang (I plan to do it with mine, by the way). In closed groups of friends, it can work perfectly. You only would need "official" cards when having casual games with strangers or if participating in a tournament -if ever one is organized, I mean-.
I think that's not so relevant, as how can one need some fighter card if there is, apparently, almost endless variations of cards available. I understand that this might be difficult for the types of players who like to have over-powered lists and armies (aka cheesy lists) but those incline to more narrative type of play, there really shouldn't be that much of a hassle... or am I missing something? ???
But I do see the concerns about possible limitations of having to just rely on the fighter cards one has purchased and not having a chance to make owns own... unless you just make them, regardless of buying or not buying more.
Now that we know the prices, I suppose an additional disadvantage is that the pricetag on the fighters seems to be drastically increased due to the included 'coins' and other bits. Now I was more of a fan of the various other figures anyway, but getting the fighters purely for the model (using them in other game systems) doesn't look very attractive at 8 quid per figure.
As for (once again) the randomness of things included, the 'no guarantees whatsoever' is more of a problem than a solution in so many ways. Firstly, not knowing what you get will be an obstacle to many. If for whatever reason you really want X or Y, you will indeed not be guaranteed to find it in several, nor several dozen purchases. On the other hand, the law of averages means that you will be much more likely to get particular desired skills or coins the more you buy. From what I've seen in trading card games, you can thus either shell out for many packs, or pay a lot for the better options on the second hand market. (Although it remains to be seen if the game will be big enough for any of that to happen.) This is not just problematic for those competetive minded people out there, but also to the ones playing against them.
Besides, they sell figures related to the randomly distributed coins: so you either have to hope you get a 'gladiator' coin if you buy and want to use that figure, or you find out you happen to get that coin, after which you have to place another order to get the mini to actually use him.
(And yes, everybody is free to play the game however they want, using home-made tokens or whatever, but this is still a place to discuss the intended game design.)
For what the designers have explained of the game that won't be -or should not be- an issue. There are not "gladiator" coins, in the sense of coins powerful enough to unbalance the game. WHat there are is "rare" coins -abilities, if you wish- but with its rarity compesated by its cost in points. Roughly, a rare coin -it can be a piece of extra equipment, for instance- will be equivalent in cost at two uncommon or three common. In theory that would stop the power players from outbuying their opponents. In other words, despite their randomness GoR does not work like a Trading Card Game. At least that is what the designers claim, and bar the actual rules I trust their word until proved otherwise.
There are not "gladiator" coins, in the sense of coins powerful enough to unbalance the game. WHat there are is "rare" coins -abilities, if you wish- but with its rarity compesated by its cost in points. Roughly, a rare coin -it can be a piece of extra equipment, for instance- will be equivalent in cost at two uncommon or three common. In theory that would stop the power players from outbuying their opponents. In other words, despite their randomness GoR does not work like a Trading Card Game. At least that is what the designers claim, and bar the actual rules I trust their word until proved otherwise.
What I'm saying is that there literally is a coin for a gladiator ally. Whether it has a points value that completely balances it out isn't the main point I'm making (although at this stage there is no way of telling how balanced the game will be, and I tend to be cautiously pessimistic when sales strategies of this type are involved) - the point is that the model of a gladiator is sold seperately from the randomly assigned coins allowing you to field said gladiator. You can purchase the gladiator, but in 20 packs of gang fighters may not find the ability to actually field him (especially problematic if the rules for the upgrade are indeed only found in the packs containing the relevant coins), or you can buy a gang fighter, then find out you have to purchase a gladiator figure to make use of the upgrade coin contained in your pack.
The comment of Footsore buildings being created for specific scenarios it just kind of sours me.
I was just excited when I saw the announcement, like REALLY excited by the idea but the marketing has soured that enthusiasm. Lots of red flags with minis that seem priced with the 'fantasy tax' justified as it being a skirmish game so you don't need as many figures so you should be happy paying more for... less... I remember this justification pushed on me when people tried to get me into Warmachine with the quality! and less minis! Then the tokens or cards just makes me think of Pokemon Roman edition and a gotta catch 'em all attitude leading to competitive buying that runs counter to everything I enjoy in gaming.
I don't mean to be a buzzkill but it's just my observations and feelings that went from jazzed and sharing with my local group to sort of waiting and seeing but probably my playing style is not in line with Footsore's idea of building an exclusionary psudeo-historical intellectual property.
pissing and whining
Seriously, I won't have it again. Criticism, reservations as well as appraisal and anticipation are fine. Name-calling is not. If you cannot do without, we'll end the discussion for good.
I'd say lock the thread until the rules are out. People, for some strange reason, just can't be reasonable about this game. A curse.or some such thing. Maybe cooler heads will prevail when folks actually read the rules or play the game.
To be fair to the Gangs of Rome guys on Facebook, the couple threads I saw that were later deleted were pretty toxic. One in particular was someone who refused to accept that there could possibly have been female gang members due to a lack of written evidence. When disputed by others who appear to have researched the history and presented their conclusions like real historians, which means making some logical leaps, he doubled down and got aggressive to the point that it would certainly have been locked on this very forum. Other threads that were deleted were generally from people who would roll in, crap on the game because of either the way it's sold or bought, then refuse to listen to any explanations.
I do think that the marketing could have been a little better, especially with the coins, which has everybody freaking out about CCG syndrome and distasteful business practices. However, I've resolved to learn more by listening to podcasts and reading the rules before I pass any sort of judgement on the game or the gents that created it. They seem to be genuinely interested in the period and excited about their game, which is refreshing to me.
Let's just see how things pan out, eh?
Mixing CCG and miniature games is a very mixed bag imo.
It works better for malifaux as their is no sticky problem of wanting to use your own minis but being unable to as you need to buy the minis to get the cards.
My only quibbles are that, as of now, we can't buy card packs to add more variety and that they only have 10 minis for the basic fighters and I want more of those beautiful minis.
Thanks to the "jigsaw" base mechanic, the cards, and the MDF denarii, these figures are (and by extension this game is) prohibitively expensive for me. WLG offers a deal of ten for 96USD, which honestly shocks the conscience - even before one considers cost of investing in the appropriate terrain.That doesn't seem that bad.
I'm not wildly interested in the game, but that starter kit is almost worth it for the terrain alone.