Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: Coenus Scaldingus on November 10, 2017, 12:38:45 PM
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Had heard some rumours these were to be released at some point, had no clue they were this close to release! Up for pre-order now: https://www.grippingbeast.co.uk/GBP16_Dark_Age_Cavalry_PREORDER--product--5532.html
(https://www.grippingbeast.co.uk/userfiles/images/sys/products/GBP16_Dark_Age_Cavalry_PREORDER_81944.jpeg)
(https://www.grippingbeast.co.uk/userfiles/images/sys/products/GBP16_Dark_Age_Cavalry_PREORDER_90004.jpeg)
(https://www.grippingbeast.co.uk/userfiles/images/sys/products/GBP16_Dark_Age_Cavalry_PREORDER_31769.jpeg)
(https://www.grippingbeast.co.uk/userfiles/images/sys/products/GBP16_Dark_Age_Cavalry_PREORDER_59908.jpeg)
Couple more close-ups on the website, no sprue pics as of yet.
Very good variation in riders based on these pictures, and probably three horses (sadly no interchangable halves). Based on the box art, I asssume a draco standard and a few more bits are to be included as well, making it a very nice generic set, hopefully interchangable with the other kits for yet more possibilities. A welcome addition to plastic historicals, almost makes you forget about those lacklustre archers. ;)
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Well, I have to say, they look pretty good.
Not something I've thought about their last few plastic sets.
Maybe all the (entirely justified) whingeing about the three figure plastic archer set made them realise they needed to raise their game...
Going to be interested to see the sprue pics...
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These look good, a definite improvement over the plastic archers
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Suitable for "up to 800 A.D." is a bit optimistic, unless they're talking about the horses lol. Looking at the headgear I'd say anything over 600 A.D. is really stretching it.
We'll see what the sprues will look like, but it never hurts to have too many different horses. For the ( Goth ) riders I'll stick with Footsore.
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Best looking kit GB has put out in a long while. Definitly on the shopping list.
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Agreed, they have upped their game. Nice looking set, and well painted too. I need to see the sprues before fully committing, but these are a definite maybe. A step in the right direction - nice to see some decent plastics.
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They are quite splendid.
Borrowing some heads and possibly some arms from the Late Roman pack might prove worthwhile too.
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Having looked again, is it me or do the horses look decidedly weird? Legs that seem to curve instead of bend at the knee and somewhat thin and narrow heads/necks.
I'm pretty certain too, as others have said, that they won't have much utility beyond 700 at the very latest.
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Having looked again, is it me or do the horses look decidedly weird?
I would agree- the horses look a little off but nothing outrageous.
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Wargames marketing has never been subtle, has it? ;)
I would agree- the horses look a little off but nothing outrageous.
These are also from the hand of Bob Naismith. Honestly not my favourite sculptor - although these definitely do look much better.
Bob also did all the Fireforge sets, including the horses.
These have a very similar look.
I think - as with the FF horses - the bodies are actually rather good, albeit perhaps slightly over-stylised.
It's the heads and necks that look wrong. Just a little bit too sculptural... More like knights on a chess board more than real horses.
Luckily, I have a gazillion spare Perry plastic horse heads, and as I did with the FF horses, I shall just graft Perry horse heads onto the GB horse bodies... :)
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Given the production times on plastic kits, one does wonder if the cavalry was already underway around the time of the archer backlash...
As for the period for these, it's only the helmets that really fix these anywhere, and I expect there to be a good few spares (and if not, the other sets certainly do). With bare heads, their basic tunic, a round shield and spear these will come in very handy for quite a broad period, and I'm already thinking of getting two sets to have a dedicated Roman group (using spares from the Late Roman plastics), a generic somewhat hairy barbarian group and some spares for whatever seems interesting. Some Conquest Norman heads, shields and spare javelins for Bretons; bare legs and extra Viking heads as Irish...
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Finally! a source for Dunlending cavalry! gawd bless you GB
On my wish list ;D ;D ;D
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The clothing looks a bit generic to me (but maybe not to others who know more about the period than I do...) so could these guys be used for 900-1000s if you swapped heads with the Viking, Saxon, or Dark Age Warriors box?
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They look very good! I don't think there is anything wrong with the horses- they are weird looking animals anyway!
They look a bit better than the Fireforge horses imho.
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I also notice on the box it says 'Good for use with Swordpoint'.
Does that mean they'd be no good for Saga?!
Dammit, without such moronic and mindless prompting I am totally unable to see their use and versatility and can only use them for what they are intended.
Since I am not a Swordpoint player then I suppose I'll just have to pass on these until they (or someone else) brings out a set that can be used with Saga. Sorry, Gripping Beast.
Must be a relief for Swordpoint players who, up until now, have been looking at other dark age cavalry ranges and thought, 'nah, it says nothing about using them for Swordpoint so I'll just have to do without...'
Seems like just a wee bit of an over-reaction, but whatever. lol
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I want to like plastics, I really do. But what are these all about? What are they wearing on their heads?
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I want to like plastics, I really do. But what are these all about? What are they wearing on their heads?
The helmets are kinda weird, nothing like anything I have come across, but hey ho, I await to be enlightened by the more learned.
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They look fine, just can't get away with plastic figures, in fact I hate plastic.
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If the only thing wrong for the period is the helmets, surely any number of the other plastic sets released have appropriate headgear? Headswaps in plastic are an absolute cinch assuming the head to neck join is the same type. :)
Luckily, I have a gazillion spare Perry plastic horse heads, and as I did with the FF horses, I shall just graft Perry horse heads onto the GB horse bodies... :)
Out of curiosity, how did you accumulate so many spares? Are there more than required in most of their mounted sets? ???
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Quite nice. They appear to be GB's best release in a long time. Two of the horses look the same as in their old plastic sets, but it looks like they have added a third horse pose. The helmets seem to be a variation on traditional attic helmets rather than spangelhelm. I am somewhat surprised not to see any figures in armor. I hope this means another box is due to be released.
It will be interesting to see the sprue. I hope there are more heads than they show in the pictures.
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Out of curiosity, how did you accumulate so many spares? Are there more than required in most of their mounted sets? ???
I think there's 23 heads in the Heavy Cavalry set. I assembled close to a box worth of Fireforge horses (10 or so) with spare heads from just one box of Perrys. Just the horse sprue I think comes with five heads to four bodies for spare unarmoured heads.
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Yep. The Perrys are extremely generous with the amount of spares and options they cram into their sets (Gripping Beast take note!), so that in the WOTR mounted men at arms set, you get twice as many horse heads as horses, allowing you to up the variety. And leaving a pile of useful leftovers. I have about 100 lol
Yes, those helmets look more Hollywood than historical. Don’t think I’ve ever seen anything like that in the archaeological record for the early-mid Dark Ages. But as mentioned, easy enough to swap out. There are a lot of great plastic heads around. One of the things I do like about Bob Naismith’s sculpting is a lot of the great characterful heads and faces he comes up with across his work for a variety of manufacturers.
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The clothing looks a bit generic to me (but maybe not to others who know more about the period than I do...) so could these guys be used for 900-1000s if you swapped heads with the Viking, Saxon, or Dark Age Warriors box?
No chainmail/armour so I'd say no, unless you'll want to play a specific scenario in which some village militia hastily have to go after some cattle thieves...
But in a pitched battle, they'd look out of date - to me, at least -, even when used as light scouts/outriders/skirmishers on horseback or even slave cav.
But it's really up to you what you think and like, what you want to do with them. If you like them, go on and use them and if opponents start bickering find yourself other opponents ;).
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Too generic for my taste, and others have mentioned the weird helmets and horses already. If various bits and pieces from other sets are required to improve on the original models, why bother with plastics in the first place? I'm sure that most people will buy, build and paint these models as they come, taking them for a decent representation of Dark Age warriors. They are not. If that's the price for cheap-ish plastic sets, I'd rather stick with metals.
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If various bits and pieces from other sets are required to improve on the original models, why bother with plastics in the first place?
Because some of us already have a big pile of extra bits from other sets to modify these figures with (which I see as a joy rather than a burden), or because we want an excuse to get some other sets we don't yet own! A set of generic (if you don't use the few particular helmets) guys who can easily be used for or be modified to be used for all manner of peoples across several centuries is very much part of the appeal to me. Worked a treat for the Dark Age infantry and glad to have a somewhat corresponding cavalry set to go with them.
As for the period, it's only the diagonal straps on the lower legs of one of the bodies that very much gives off the Late Roman vibe (again, ignoring the optional heads). Norman heads and kite shields and they'll make fine poorer Normans or Bretons; with other heads they can be stretched really quite far for the British isles too: even those that can afford it won't be wearing chainmail all the time (and the Viking or Anglo-Danish elites traditionally fight on foot anyway). To the best of my knowledge, we don't have enough knowledge of changes in tunic styles or leg wrappings to date the basic guys in this set to anywhere very specific - but I may be wrong.
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Not sure I like them... but I'll wait until I actually see the figures. It wouldn't be the first time that I have been agreeably surprised by the actual product.
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I think these look really good. Ideal for the fantasy market to be honest, whatever the historical issues they may have.
Plus, they're nearer the mark than the TV show Vikings that had cavalry in almost Tudor-era helmets!
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Plus, they're nearer the mark than the TV show Vikings that had cavalry in almost Tudor-era helmets!
They were Tudor era helmets - burgonets to be precise. The exact same wardrobe items used for the French army in The Borgias (only 100 or so years wrong there, unlike equipping the Anglo-Saxon armies of C9th Wessex in them, where they were around 800 years out ::)
The perils of using the same costume designers across multiple streaming series...
I loved Vikings. But for a programme made under the auspices of the History Channel, such horrendous historical inaccuracies are honestly inexcusable...
You can hear the conversation now...
Producer: 'Right then, what are we going to do to give the army of Wessex a distinctive look?'
Wardrobe: 'Well, I've got a quote for 15 grand for fabricating 200 fibre glass simple spangelhelms, which are broadly accurate for the period, but will take six weeks to arrive'.
Producer: 'Or?'
Wardrobe: 'Or I've got 200 burgonets in storage left over from 'The Borgias'. They'll cost nothing and I can get them by Monday. But of course they're totally wrong for the period... I mean, not like a little bit out, but from the wrong Millennium... '
Producer: 'Fuck it. Helmet's a helmet. Stick 'em in the burgonets. No-one will ever know... '
Good old History Channel... ;D
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They look good to me and good value for cavalry which many people struggle to afford in metal.
The whiny comments about helmets, horses and being generic just shows how far we have come and how spoilt some of us are nowadays.
But for those of us not so anal as to reject a good value set over a possible helmet issue, when we don't even know half of what they actually wore or looked like anyway, we'll done gripping beast!
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Gripping Beast also did odd looking helmets in their Late Roman box. One has to wonder why they don't use basic well know helmets in the their plastics sets. I really hope a plastic cavalry box in armor is to follow. It would be nice to see a variety of standard spangelhelms.
Overall though, this box looks like a very nice release. Certainly much better than the Late Romans.
BTW, can anyone tell me how Westwind heads fit on GB plastics?
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BTW, can anyone tell me how Westwind heads fit on GB plastics?
http://mitchwargaming.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/gripping-beast-dark-age-plastic.html?m=1
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Good old History Channel... ;D
At last there were no aliens or Aliens Guy present..
We should cherish small things..
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Gripping Beast also did odd looking helmets in their Late Roman box. One has to wonder why they don't use basic well know helmets in the their plastics sets. I really hope a plastic cavalry box in armor is to follow. It would be nice to see a variety of standard spangelhelms.
Maybe we will see that in the rumoured Gothic cavalry box set.
BTW, can anyone tell me how Westwind heads fit on GB plastics?
They match up well. Some of the heads are a little large and the sculpting a little coarse but they worked just fine.
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They look good to me and good value for cavalry which many people struggle to afford in metal.
The whiny comments about helmets, horses and being generic just shows how far we have come and how spoilt some of us are nowadays.
But for those of us not so anal as to reject a good value set over a possible helmet issue, when we don't even know half of what they actually wore or looked like anyway, we'll done gripping beast!
Aha ha! Well done, nice comedy turn. I almost fell for it. 😀
I just hope that the heads shown on the box art are included on the sprue. The there will be at least a few helmets that aren’t bizarre...
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These look like decent dark ages cavalry to me.
I've no plans to assemble with bits just from their own box mind you. I've sort of come to assume that plastic kits are ment to be kitbashed. A few heads, torsos and weapons from the other GB kits and they'll be fine :)
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God discussion here, I appreciate it. :)
The minis look perfectly fine. Along the lines of earlier GB Dark Age plastics. The problem with plastics of course will always be that they have to sell a TON of them to make it worthwhile, hence the generic look. Anything specific will probably look out of place. Granted, sometimes it's rather surprising which kind of stuff the sculptors go with if they add a little specific thing. But it's just a handful of heads out of the whole box. So it's cool I'm sure.
I love how they do unarmoured cavalry first. 80% of times minis on the table top are too heavily armoured anyway. However, my main gripe with GB miins stands - very, very few to no cloaks at all. That I think is something they should either sell as a spearate plastic sprue (because that'd work I'm rather sure) or just have them in the boxes to begin with.
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There should be some sprue pictures out today :D
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The sprue pictures are up, although kind of dark. It looks like three horses, three riders, eight heads, four spears, two swords, two axes, one draco, one separate plume; and three oval and three round shields per sprue
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Hmmm. Pretty minimal again then. Oh well... This seems to be the strategy Gripping Beast have settled on for their plastic sets: Include the bare minimum of components to let gamers build basic units quickly but with little variety. Fair enough. I'm sure there's a market for it. Not what I'm looking for I must admit, and as with the archers set, it seems something of a betrayal of the potential of historical plastics to create parts for (relatively) inexpensive and endlessly flexible model figures. But there you go. That's the route they've decided on, and they clearly know their market. The models themselves don't look bad in this case, so I'm sure I'll venture a set... :)
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Lightened the picture a little, its still too small to see details.....
(https://i.imgur.com/HEHuMHP.jpg)
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Gripping Beast's original Thegn and Hirdmen boxes had a lot of extras. All their releases since then have had minimal extras. With 8 heads and 6 shields (for 3 figures) I have to say this appears to be their best release in quite some time. The only obvious thing that appears to be missing is swords in scabbards. Clearly, anyone doing dark age late Romans or barbarians using GB plastics needs to get a box of thegns.
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The first pics made me think the set would be like the seemingly unappreciated (or perhaps simply less well known) Arab Cavalry sets, which it sadly isn't quite. Glad to see 8 head options, enough oval and round shields for all, nor is the weapon variety terrible, but it's still a bit underwhelming. The arms don't match previous sets making it a bit more effort to combine them, although thankfully the left arms aren't fixed to the bodies either making any switches and repositioning a lot easier. Having every three figures in roughly the same pose is a pity though, but overall it is nothing like 'those archers' and allows for more variation than the Late Romans too.
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Hmmm. Pretty minimal again then. Oh well... This seems to be the strategy Gripping Beast have settled on for their plastic sets: Include the bare minimum of components to let gamers build basic units quickly but with little variety. Fair enough. I'm sure there's a market for it. Not what I'm looking for I must admit, and as with the archers set, it seems something of a betrayal of the potential of historical plastics to create parts for (relatively) inexpensive and endlessly flexible model figures. But there you go. That's the route they've decided on, and they clearly know their market. The models themselves don't look bad in this case, so I'm sure I'll venture a set... :)
I think there are two types of gamers who like plastics the "Big armies cheap" and the "Kitbashers". If you are the former minimal poses and components are a bonus because when you trying to put several hundred figures together who wants loads of separate pieces? Of course if you are a "KitBasher", and you clearly are, then the more bits and poses the better. It must be quite hard as a manufacturer to know which way to jump but my gut feeling is the "Big armies cheap" guys are going to buy a lot more box sets in the long run, than a guy looking for conversion fodder, which is why GB goes the way they do.
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I honestly hadnt thought about it that way Diablo Jon, but your arguments make a lot of sense :)
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I still like the look of these :D :D
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I think there are two types of gamers who like plastics the "Big armies cheap" and the "Kitbashers". If you are the former minimal poses and components are a bonus because when you trying to put several hundred figures together who wants loads of separate pieces? Of course if you are a "KitBasher", and you clearly are, then the more bits and poses the better. It must be quite hard as a manufacturer to know which way to jump but my gut feeling is the "Big armies cheap" guys are going to buy a lot more box sets in the long run, than a guy looking for conversion fodder, which is why GB goes the way they do.
I would agree with that.
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I think there are two types of gamers who like plastics the "Big armies cheap" and the "Kitbashers". If you are the former minimal poses and components are a bonus because when you trying to put several hundred figures together who wants loads of separate pieces? Of course if you are a "KitBasher", and you clearly are, then the more bits and poses the better. It must be quite hard as a manufacturer to know which way to jump but my gut feeling is the "Big armies cheap" guys are going to buy a lot more box sets in the long run, than a guy looking for conversion fodder, which is why GB goes the way they do.
That's true, but on the other hand the plastic War of the Roses range from the Perry brothers appealed to both type of gamers. Thus it is certainly possibly to make a plastic set that appeals to both type of gamers.
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The only obvious thing that appears to be missing is swords in scabbards
It‘s not only missing swords in scabbards but scabbards in general. The two (possible) guys per sprue wielding a sword would want to put it away at some point too I guess.
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I think there are two types of gamers who like plastics the "Big armies cheap" and the "Kitbashers". If you are the former minimal poses and components are a bonus because when you trying to put several hundred figures together who wants loads of separate pieces? Of course if you are a "KitBasher", and you clearly are, then the more bits and poses the better. It must be quite hard as a manufacturer to know which way to jump but my gut feeling is the "Big armies cheap" guys are going to buy a lot more box sets in the long run, than a guy looking for conversion fodder, which is why GB goes the way they do.
Interesting idea but doesn’t really hang together. There is a difference between a set with lots of choices and one that is unnecessarily complex due to each figure being made up of lots of parts. Lots of choices but simple assembly shouldn’t be that difficult to design. Well thought out instruction sheet should cover most of it. The simpler explanation is that the manufacturer is just being cheapskate.
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Interesting idea but doesn’t really hang together. There is a difference between a set with lots of choices and one that is unnecessarily complex due to each figure being made up of lots of parts. Lots of choices but simple assembly shouldn’t be that difficult to design. Well thought out instruction sheet should cover most of it. The simpler explanation is that the manufacturer is just being cheapskate.
That does not follow, costs in plastic production are predominantly in the set-up phase. From what I understand, there is not a significant difference in cost to adding spare items to a sprue. It is however, much quicker to develop less complex sprues, which meant these will have reached market in time for Black Friday...
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I think there are two types of gamers who like plastics the "Big armies cheap" and the "Kitbashers". If you are the former minimal poses and components are a bonus because when you trying to put several hundred figures together who wants loads of separate pieces? Of course if you are a "KitBasher", and you clearly are, then the more bits and poses the better. It must be quite hard as a manufacturer to know which way to jump but my gut feeling is the "Big armies cheap" guys are going to buy a lot more box sets in the long run, than a guy looking for conversion fodder, which is why GB goes the way they do.
It's a bit simplistic to define gamers like this. I play Saga, it's a skirmish game, one box would probably suffice for all my needs. I am not collecting a big army, nor am I kitbashing. I suspect I am not the only gamer that fits this "category", Saga is a popular system.
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This is of course in relation to plastic kits. There are lots of gamers who prefer metal or resin and wont even consider plastic kits. There's also gamers that use both, but care more about the models details than the cost, so they pick and choose their models from different metal and plastic supplier.
Maybe the Saga gamers who like (or prefer?) plastic kits could be split up into 2 types that corresponds with Diablos?
Saga gamers that just wants a quick unit of cavalry and doesnt care too much about the details = "Big armies cheap".
Saga gamers who wants their models to be very historically accurate and is willing to convert the models to get them that way = "Kitbasher".
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I think most of what people are saying is probably right - it's a mixture of both factors.
1. GB are focused on the mass market for wargamers who just want to get units onto the tabletop fast and at a relatively low cost. They're not bothered about the modellers, converters and kitbashers, because it's a niche market.
2. They are also trying to do it on the cheap though, to get the maximum return. The smaller the number of components they include, the lower the sculpting costs and the simpler the frame. Presumably that means simpler tooling, which must also mean less time and so lower costs again.
So instead of having a frame full of rider bodies and components plus a separate horse frame (which is what the other plastics companies have done with their cavalry sets), here everything is put onto just the one frame.
But it still costs 22 quid though.
So I suppose, at the end of the day, my objection probably comes down to the simple fact that (for both the above reasons) Gripping Beast are providing a lot less variety of product - and yet charging more or less the same amount of money charged by other plastics manufacturers. Which doesn't sit right with me. But then most people won't worry too much about the principle of it. They'll just buy them if they like them. As I probably will - so who am I to complain? ;)
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Except for the missing scabbards the dark age cavalry box looks fairly decent to me, although I am not sure if I will like the change in right arm configuration. An example of a badly designed box is the the late Romans. Two archers (out of five figures) in the same pose is absurd. Designing one of the archer figures to be posable as a loading archer, or a standing spearman/swordsmen would have been the logical choice. In addition, the box needs (at least) a couple extra heads without helmet (cap or bareheaded). I have no idea how much my changes would have cost, but I can't believe it would have been that much money. And I don't think having one figure without arms would have added that much extra work for those doing massed armies.
Making a plastic box designed for mass armies doesn't mean you gave to eliminate options altogether.
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This discussion makes me laugh, we finally get some plastic dark age cavalry & people arent happy, when we didnt have any people wernt happy ;) ;)
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Looking through some sprues, it's actually surprisingly similar to the Conquest Games Norman cavalry. Horses on the sprue, choice of two types of shields, choice of hand weapons or pointy sticks. Gripping Beast doesn't have a seperate command sprue (although most things on it mirror the normal one I think), but has a few more head options.
With the more limited options than hoped for, I'm now just looking at getting one rather than two sets. Perhaps a second one will follow if it proves interesting enough.
EDIT: Armoured Roman cav apparently next year. That does change the plans for what to make of these a bit...
EDIT EDIT: Another picture of painted ones. They certainly don't look half bad.
(https://scontent-amt2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23517728_1587470167965328_2635335564412567979_n.jpg?oh=0da11cbfd5e6579ffe1f3b5a705e2fe1&oe=5A9FAD84)
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I agree - they don’t look half bad :)
I’ll be kitbashing them with all sorts of bits anyway.
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They look quite dynamic, but not too exaggerated, which is a good thing in my book. :)
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I agree too, they are not bad, which is about as much as you can expect from GB.
It makes me laugh when gamers are prepared to accept sub-standard products and come up with all kinds of reasons why we should do so - we are spoilt, they were not available once and now they are so be grateful, they can be enhanced with extra bits, etc. All this does is send a message back to the company - keep producing mediocre stuff, we will buy it, don't bother trying to improve.
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I agree too, they are not bad, which is about as much as you can expect from GB.
It makes me laugh when gamers are prepared to accept sub-standard products and come up with all kinds of reasons why we should do so - we are spoilt, they were not available once and now they are so be grateful, they can be enhanced with extra bits, etc. All this does is send a message back to the company - keep producing mediocre stuff, we will buy it, don't bother trying to improve.
Yep. I am so with you on that.
I find the ‘we must be grateful and uncritical’ mindset peculiar. But.a lot of wargamers seem to share it. This quality of figures in this set looks quite good to me compared with one or two of GB’s other recent offerings. But it is still near minimal in terms of components and adaptability, and yet they’re still charging the full going rate for a box of plastic figures. Well, if people just accept it, they’ll just keep on doing it.
It would be nice to think that some of the flak they took over the archers set may have made them raise their game a little bit with this set...
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Yep. I am so with you on that.
I find the ‘we must be grateful and uncritical’ mindset peculiar. But.a lot of wargamers seem to share it. This quality of figures in this set looks quite good to me compared with one or two of GB’s other recent offerings. But it is still near minimal in terms of components and adaptability, and yet they’re still charging the full going rate for a box of plastic figures. Well, if people just accept it, they’ll just keep on doing it.
It would be nice to think that some of the flak they took over the archers set may have made them raise their game a little bit with this set...
The answer is simple then, don’t buy ‘em. ;)
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I'm sure sales numbers will show the company what works and what doesn't - but only to a certain extent. Looking solely at Gripping Beast's plastics, I was planning to get two kits of cavalry, yet that number has halved because it's not quite what I was hoping for. The archers proved to poor to even consider. Of the unarmoured infantry, I have two sets - they really aren't that great, but so versatile that they came in handy for all kinds of projects, and there's a chance I'll pick up more in future. However, of the plastic Vikings - far superior in many ways, not least the practicality of the poses - I only have one set, for the simple reason I have no need for even 44 armoured Norsemen, let alone more, in my skirmish needs. It's a better kit, but doesn't sell as well.
Based on projects I've seen online, the plastic Arab cavalry has not been overly popular. Substantially more effort would have gone into the two sets of light and heavy cavalry (two full sprues with various additional bodies, detailed shields, weapons, matching armoured arms in case of the heavy cav, a plethora of head designs) compared to the infantry (half-sprues with repeated shields and several weapon arms that already appeared in the unarmoured Dark Age box). A typical SAGA player will get a set of infantry and quite possible just one of the cavalry sets, maybe one of each. If the cavalry took twice the effort to make per box, I can imagine Gripping Beast will take that as a hint to say they shouldn't waste their time with all kinds of optional extras. Indeed, I expect the unarmoured Dark Age infantry has been their biggest seller - a simple kit with mostly just spears, five identical shields and 60% annoyingly moulded left arms. If that (their third plastic set) proved popular, I can imagine they thought it wise to just continue that formula. Perhaps they'd sell more if it was better, perhaps they wouldn't sell as many as would warrant that investment - if this is good enough to guarantee enough sales, they'll probably just go with that.
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It's a bit simplistic to define gamers like this. I play Saga, it's a skirmish game, one box would probably suffice for all my needs. I am not collecting a big army, nor am I kitbashing. I suspect I am not the only gamer that fits this "category", Saga is a popular system.
With the greatest of respect I doubt players of Saga (or any skirmish game) is the target market the manufacturers of plastic miniatures had in mind. If you only need a few miniatures I'm sure the manufacturers would rather sell you more expensive metal miniatures.
The original idea behind 28m plastics was to build big armies cheap. Just look at the Perry twins first plastic offering ACW infantry. Set poses with fixed arms the only options were slouch hat or kepi and a couple of armless bodies and spare arms to build a command. Easy to build cheaper than metals so you could afford lots to play big games.
Of course plenty of people spotted the potential for conversions in plastic (especially those of us who spent years kit bashing with GW plastics) and love mixing and matching different kits and bits. If you play Saga though and need maybe 20 odd miniatures, you don't want to convert, there is no reason to use plastics, other than personal choice, you might as well use metals and save time on construction imo.
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I play basically only SAGA - I have good "metal" warbands which I spent a decent amount of time painting and basing.
I recently moved nearly 2 hours drive away from my gaming group, and to save carefully packing up my metal miniature each time I go up there, i am now duplicating the warbands in plastic, so I can literally throw them in a box for when I get the chance to go up there.
These and the other plastic sets are prefect for that.
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If you play Saga though and need maybe 20 odd miniatures, you don't want to convert, there is no reason to use plastics, other than personal choice, you might as well use metals and save time on construction imo.
While small-scale games may not have been the original target market for plastics, they sure have become one. If you can create a full SAGA warband out of a box (actually typically between 37 and 45 figures, more for some forces) rather than metals, it will cost you half as much. If you're new to a game, that's a much lower threshold to cross, if you barely ever play, it's much more attractive to invest little, and if you play loads, you can start twice the number of forces for the same price. I've played quite a bit of SAGA in several groups, and over half the forces were plastic Gripping Beast, Conquest Games or Fireforge. There's a reason the former has started offering a repackaged version of their Vikings and Saxons (alongside unarmoured ones) as 4pt starter warbands, and sells their latest archers explicitely as 1pt/12 men groups of levy. Large forces may have been the original focus, but with the growing popularity of small-scale games, why care if you sell 10 boxes to one person, or 1 box each to 10 people?
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While small-scale games may not have been the original target market for plastics, they sure have become one. If you can create a full SAGA warband out of a box (actually typically between 37 and 45 figures, more for some forces) rather than metals, it will cost you half as much. If you're new to a game, that's a much lower threshold to cross, if you barely ever play, it's much more attractive to invest little, and if you play loads, you can start twice the number of forces for the same price. I've played quite a bit of SAGA in several groups, and over half the forces were plastic Gripping Beast, Conquest Games or Fireforge. There's a reason the former has started offering a repackaged version of their Vikings and Saxons (alongside unarmoured ones) as 4pt starter warbands, and sells their latest archers explicitely as 1pt/12 men groups of levy. Large forces may have been the original focus, but with the growing popularity of small-scale games, why care if you sell 10 boxes to one person, or 1 box each to 10 people?
Well said. My Saga forces are 90% plastic, as are those of several other players in our group.
Some of us like building plastic figures, its fun to make up the poses, and build with bits from other sets. Even if I don't go to the lengths of cutting arms and legs to reposition figures.
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Of course plenty of people spotted the potential for conversions in plastic (especially those of us who spent years kit bashing with GW plastics) and love mixing and matching different kits and bits. If you play Saga though and need maybe 20 odd miniatures, you don't want to convert, there is no reason to use plastics, other than personal choice, you might as well use metals and save time on construction imo.
I take your points, but....
A typical Saga band is six points, many players have seven points or more for a bit of flexibility. That's more like 50 odd miniatures, unless you go ultra elite in your selection. I personally find plastics easier to prep - all those crappy metal minis with their crappy metal claw hands to drill through to fit a spear - it's quicker and easier for me to just assemble the plastic bits. I started with plastics because they were a cheap way in, but also because most of the metals around are just so poor. These days I am more about quality than cost, so I actually have some resin in my collection. ;) But I know I am the exception rather than the rule. Plastic warbands are very popular though - when I look on the facebook Saga page, I guess around two thirds of the warbands are plastics. So I would (un scientifically) argue that gamers are cheap skates and will go the plastic route more often than not, irrespective of their game system.
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I actually prefer plastics and cost is not the issue; multiple identical figures within an 'irregular warband' is. There aren't many metal ranges that don't force you to buy multiples of the same three or four figures. With plastics, after you've run out of standard poses, conversion is far less of a chore and indeed mixing and matching across boxes increases your options.
Assembly time for plastics is roughly equal to the time spent cleaning flash and mould lines off metals.
I actively avoid buying metals nowadays unless a range offers enough variety; which effectively translates to not having to buy more than two identical packs of the same figure type.
With later periods troop poses should be more 'regular', so you would expect them to be limited poses, outside of a skirmish line that is. Plastics were supposed to rejuvinate the big battle game, but I don't think those games appeal to the masses as much any more (big battle fantasy didn't either). Within a decade or two they might even seem as quaint as shooting matchsticks at lead soldiers.
*Awaits torch and pitchfork bearing mob* ;)
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"Plastics were supposed to rejuvinate the big battle game, but I don't think those games appeal to the masses as much any more (big battle fantasy didn't either). Within a decade or two they might even seem as quaint as shooting matchsticks at lead soldiers.*
Smaller games, better marketing, more accessible subjects - zombies, WWII - play-out-of-the-box, pre-painted games such as X-Wing and cheaper, better transportable mini's and - her in Europa - far better access simply draw in more players for whom wargaming is more a side hobby than a life fulfillment. The fanatics will still be there, just more diluted.
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I have avoided metal and to a lesser extend resin for years as I am a huge fan of plastic miniatures.
But lately if the plastic sets are not from Games Workshop, Victrix or the Perry brothers I don't bother anymore.
Look at the metal early HYW range from Claymore Castings or the Anglo-Saxon, Viking, Norman range from V&V miniatures. Amazing and enough different miniatures to have an unique warband. I have recently bought almost all the 28mm V&V miniatures and I am planning to build 3 warbands. Each model in my warband will be unique and the sculpts are highly detailed, realistic and crisp.
The current trend of minimalistic sprues with few options feels as a hobbyist a step backward instead of a step forward.
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Postie delivered a little box today, so here a few pictures of the sprue - building some later this week (painting may take a bit longer).
Full sprue:
(https://tba3jg-dm2305.files.1drv.com/y4m19rNoRRQM2ieKj5djrZ0pnDwDqkCJ-q8EKAccxfu6alhCf3Tp4SVEdE1Hi9ahSN-TllxGfgXU9zediZa-eNE12G7zNrKP0Ux9CLpyyGfOurJ-ytmNlZBtCb4KTRG2qnnT3Egw5H9WsUXvXPd41EUI2gzXgZ9ezCsNu59Awsn7L6Yw7Xs_AkTOSXbRCgEaFaZJiTfT7496ONimZswRCGfvw?width=750&height=472&cropmode=none)
Other side:
(https://gajf1q-dm2305.files.1drv.com/y4mWKZMJpo7GfGJBR9ZiO7oHbQmfhC6Djy8UNp1PE58Y_m8fhe45nGkDeRFWVoXE8efvMYXFpWpN0xnxfWgX-1EBUaHNke7OZdx6VJFqqS2kvq42FHscV70pG3rEVhkrJhBvwIEuxr-ruv6VCd-UutTHpqnsH2khtpn8-8H_5Cuis4t7-E-79kzAOzaExroOFLKGJtWg3CWfsRhrnAAtjz0qQ?width=750&height=500&cropmode=none)
Close-ups:
(https://tbap1q-dm2305.files.1drv.com/y4mHbS4caQJ9mrUF9N3dzMG_UXIqZZVcYh86g-zvrl3S7KWe_PGqww9gcfvuHkXmZ2kUP6fjPjJQPxR05R67PUeezqHWQMKa5Vnnk7EJjub3XiYLNNcHT5QRdes9F8oHIiS558jL_zLuyp9LRwpORT7X3Fm22MfspT7mg5usvonBglBwARWXT1Hi7n7xUTLDSvMslQP4B6Gec8n17qNTNvDmA?width=750&height=397&cropmode=none)
(https://tbabpq-dm2305.files.1drv.com/y4mKrCN44_qhrLRBOFmz8RVhKCubg0fuNuPRKb7BA3doJ56Gr0ogGCc5MTAxx1_m4ZB6tg6xDP6uNs4FLEknEqbIzCbxT1yKBpwUX06ER8PUMU85FBiSuH2R4aqhsRdGTfmheYOXogxHDmboGdA1NovrV7jWHxKJCren2BKChZovB3j8BF5ig-Y5spZNCe2W1rlgU5bA8KiaVKv6YUFAJTBQw?width=750&height=421&cropmode=none)
(https://galsuw-dm2305.files.1drv.com/y4mLe1PXH6Rj63onLthu4geZTPqyKKmKyUgP2ZnvqW8hBrT-0VAtph4pyN3YmVlgBhi0vIg4tDhWXdC5qTWG8HUDf8ZyJr7soWyS3FK-Tr735QVkO03WTuhLUlFyljohkbpGF9fuod-t2pISvezfauzR3G6Vfr32KswyU-bDGcfYbc01cRHGEJNxBGM_Lx4cTMlqnmuH48lHZQ8iqP12iMWNA?width=900&height=495&cropmode=none)
Horsies:
(https://tbzsaw-dm2305.files.1drv.com/y4mAVbyRa9NyVxirlVfboYu5GGxOyH3zF3T475S84n098mlrCELCR-vEmDOYButK0_qOUyLSVApS_M9NIyFaiz0ZZoyI9doZWuNMqXwQGac9pboi-k8wQ1HPrTKbkjI11CFJK4UWlZnM3ZmhI0g-ADwZWjsEoVKEU6nko9jTeT6gKlVQHzDSW1NZjpJ5zn4bdEDLbpY4M5JpfcqXMiBbwu1og?width=900&height=568&cropmode=none)
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Thanks for the photos.
They remind me a lot of the Conquest Norman cavalry.
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Thanks for those pics, they are very helpful. I think they look better now, I had a few doubts about the horse heads, but they look fine from your pics. Looking forward to an assembled pic or two. :)