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Miniatures Adventure => Back of Beyond => Topic started by: ErikB on January 03, 2018, 10:35:18 PM
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Hi Folks.
I am becoming confused by the different players in the Russian Revolution, at least from a wargaming perspective.
Who were the different Reds? There were the Cheka, Red Guards, some kind of regular troops? Siberian Rifles?
And which groups fought for the Whites? According to my aunt, I have a great-great uncle who was in the Princess Olga regiment, but what were these regiments? Were they bodyguards? Or just a regiment with a compelling name to it?
Who did the White soldiers serving in Chinese armies fight? How do they fit in?
(You can probably tell that I am trying to figure out Mark Copplestone's fantastic range of minis with these questions.)
What about the people further East, in the Stan countries? How were they involved in the Revolution?
I am reading a fantastic book by a British SAS operator who travelled pretty far into the East, making it to Georgia, during the period of Stalin's show trials (which he attended). Seems that these inner-countries were only vaguely aware of, connected to, or bothered by the Revolution.
Thanks for your explanations, folks.
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That's one of the things I love about this period - learning about all the mixed-up sides fighting for/against each other (and themselves!). I'd recommend that you read Peter Hopkirk's fantastic Setting the East Ablaze for a small insight into what was going on (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Setting-East-Ablaze-Lenins-Empire/dp/0719564506)
As for all your questions, I'm not an expert but I'm sure someone more learned than myself can provide some answers. In the meantime have a few things that might be of interest:
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukhara_operation_(1920)
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavr_Kornilov
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_von_Ungern-Sternberg
Also, if you're on Facebook, why not consider joining the BoB Group? https://www.facebook.com/groups/1512379345752577/
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Cuprum will hopefully chime in with his expertise.
AFAIK:
Reds were Bolsheviks (became Communist party)
Whites were loyal to Tsarist regime
China was a country of warring states/ideas
So Cheka, red guards, Siberian rifles etc are just different units sculpted by Copplestone for flavour
China/Russia share borders so units could go wherever the pay was best.
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Checkout the Siberian Miniatures Forum..tons of info
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Whites were loyal to Tsarist regime
Bold statement))) In fact, there were few monarchists among whites.
Cuprum will hopefully chime in with his expertise.
The question is so vast that I am not ready to answer it in the format of this forum.
To begin with, it is desirable to read something on the topic, in order to have at least some idea.
Start, for example, with "Osprey":
№ 293 - Russian Civil War. The Red Army
№ 305 - The Russian Civil War. White Armies
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Totally agree with Cuprum. You need to read some brief histories or the answers won't make any sense at all.
There were non-Communist "Reds" and Socialist "Whites", depending on who is doing the labelling.
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Thanks for the answers, folks!
I live just a few miles from Facebook, an evil, horrible company that is destroying the towns nearby (including mine), so I don't use it. I'll have to rely on other sources.
Checka was the pre-KGB, right? These were the guys who went around torturing, killing, and pressuring non-conformists, both non-communists and those in the party who did not follow the party line, right?
Sounds like the Whites were on the Monarchist side, either motivated by being Monarchists or by being anti-Red. Is this right?
Similarly, the Reds were either Communists or anti-Monarchists, yes?
Both Reds and Whites fit one of these categories: True Believers, Anti-Establishment rebels, forced to join, or paid to join, yes? And this is how we had socialists in the White camp and non-Communist Reds, as well?
(My Lithuanian antecedents fled from a nasty pre-revolution crackdown against protesters in Vilna. Cossacks killed almost everyone, including grabbing babies from parents, smashing them against walls and trampling them. Horrible times. That's how we came to the USA ca. 120 years ago.)
And the Basmachi movement was basically an independence movement, as I understand it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basmachi_movement).
Back to wargaming, I am still not sure which uniforms belonged to whom. Those pointed hats, were they Red-specific? (https://www.copplestonecastings.co.uk/prod.php?prod=49)
And where do the Siberian Rifles fit in? I see some on Wikipedia as Imperialists and on Copplestone's website they are Reds. Can someone tell me about them?
Thanks heaps, folks!
I'll see if I can get my hands on those Osprey books.
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Back to wargaming, I am still not sure which uniforms belonged to whom. Those pointed hats, were they Red-specific? (https://www.copplestonecastings.co.uk/prod.php?prod=49)
As others have said, this is a complex period, but in respect of that question, the pointed hat was known as a ‘budenovka’ and was a specifically Red uniform detail introduced around 1919-20. It’s not necessarily widespread, Red units would have worn a wide variety of headgear and given that it looks quite warm I’d suspect a few Whites would have nicked some.
The Cheka is the forerunner of the KGB - as an example of the internationalist nature of the conflict they quite often used Chinese troops :)
The Osprey on the Red Army is good, I seem to recall there were a few issues on accuracy in the Osprey White Army book?
As a good single volume history of the period I’d recommend Evan Mawdsley’s ‘The Russian Civil War’.
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"Budyonovka" (like the whole new Soviet uniform of the 1919 model) began to appear in the troops already in 1919, but spread quite slowly. Suffice it appeared en masse in 1920, and during the Soviet-Polish war and the struggle for the Crimea. She was, in the overwhelming majority of ordinary khaki with multi-colored stars in front of large (raspberry - infantry, blue - the cavalry, black - artillery and other technical units, etc.). However, red "budennovka`s" also met, as, for example, leather, but it was not regulated arbitrariness.
Basically, all sides had a uniform of the Imperial Army model, with their own characteristics and signs (red, for example, never had shoulder straps). In the white army, British uniform was widely distributed.
In the White Army, the military counter-intelligence carried out the functions of the Cheka (including terror).
Chinese military units (as well as Hungarian, Czech, Polish, etc.) served in quite large numbers in all Soviet power structures. During the First World War, more than 100,000 Chinese were brought to the territory of Russia as gastarbeiters ... By the way, they also served with whites, but much less often.
In "Osprey" a lot of mistakes, but the basic idea of the opposing armies, it will give. It will already be about what to talk ;)
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Thanks, folks.
I am trying to make a list, here. If anyone wishes to expand and/or correct it, I would be delighted.
Spacebo.
Periods:
* Early - Rebelling against Tzar/Nobility, rise of Bolsheviks, civilians vs. police, Reds getting mobilized
* Middle - Open war, uniforms
* Late - Reds killing each other, rise of Cheka/KGB, terror, wars with Poland, Ukraine, Livonia
Players:
* Reds
- Checka
- Red Guards
- Bolsheviks
- Mensheviks
- Conscripted peasants
* Whites
- Royalists
- Conscripts
- Siberian Rifles
* Independents:
- Mad Baron (warlord)
- Other warlords (nobles w/their own armies)
* Chinese
- Warlords
- Ex-Whites in service of warlords
- Mercenaries for any side (especially Reds)
* Basmachis - Muslim Central Asians rebelling against conscription, Independence Movement, neither Red nor White
* British & Americans
- Backed the Czechoslovak Legion against the Austrians and Reds
- Backed the Whites against the Reds after they withdrew from WWI
* Tibetans
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* Poland
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* Ukraine
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Couple of things which may be of interest to you:
http://www.edinburghwargames.com/the-back-of-beyond/ - plenty of pics and battle reports, plus a faction breakdown
https://rattrap-productions.com/collections/peers-rules - link to the supplement by Chris Peers which has some information you may find useful
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You are confusing war games units with real units. There are no "Siberian Rifles", merely infantry from Siberia. I don't care that they are on some army list, they had no existence separate from mere rifles. The Cheka co-opted ordinary units and had no forces of its own until very late, and they didn't fight on the external fronts anyway. Mensheviks is meaningless in context. As is "Royalists".
"Conscript" was 90%, or more, of any Red rifles. Meanwhile you've left out early Red Guards, Naval troops, Internationalists, Latvian Rifles, Cossacks, ChON, Kursanty and Bashkirs, just from the Reds.
Can I suggest again that you read about the subject, rather than trying to put it together from sources that aren't trying to be history?
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This thread needs a reaction pic
(https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/anarchocommunist-revolutionary-nestor-ivanovich-makhno-during-the-picture-id80561951)
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Can I suggest again that you read about the subject, rather than trying to put it together from sources that aren't trying to be history?
Fair enough, but the poster appears to be looking for a leg up to get him started in a new period which has interested him. If his aim is to order some models and then read up while he waits for them to arrive and paints them, I can understand his plea for help to avoid making a mistake. :'(
As he is thinking in terms of the Copplestone range, if you can help him, could you suggest some useful starting forces as a first buy? :)
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As he is thinking in terms of the Copplestone range, if you can help him, could you suggest some useful starting forces as a first buy? :)
What a jolly good idea! Whilst I myself have still not managed to do any miniature gaming in the Back of Beyond (does a megagame count?), I have read up a lot in various books, and every thread of this sub-forum. It seems like a good way to go forward is with two or three units and an element in support, whether that's an artillery piece, HMG or something a bit more exotic like a jingal.
So, on that basis, might we suggest 2-3 units of the Bolshevik infantry, the commissar set (for a bod to act as commander, another as a commissar, *and* there's a bod with a flag!), and then possibly an HMG from Copplestone's line of Reds?
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Can I suggest again that you read about the subject, rather than trying to put it together from sources that aren't trying to be history?
I have read some Hopkirk and actually have degrees in History and Political Science, though my specialties were Middle East and Cold War, not Russia.
I have a sense of what went on in that period from a high-level academic perspective but that did not tell me about specific groups, players, or the details of internal matters. Mostly, we learned about how the USSR interacted with The West, not what went on inside.
This is why I am trying to make a clear list of the players and events that happened inside so I can better understand the books in my to-read list (currently learning the Python language and IEC 62304, IEC 13485, and so on - totally different stuff.)
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What a jolly good idea! Whilst I myself have still not managed to do any miniature gaming in the Back of Beyond (does a megagame count?), I have read up a lot in various books, and every thread of this sub-forum. It seems like a good way to go forward is with two or three units and an element in support, whether that's an artillery piece, HMG or something a bit more exotic like a jingal.
So, on that basis, might we suggest 2-3 units of the Bolshevik infantry, the commissar set (for a bod to act as commander, another as a commissar, *and* there's a bod with a flag!), and then possibly an HMG from Copplestone's line of Reds?
Which megagame was it?
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Which megagame was it?
Red Dawn, Pete :D
It was bags of fun, the Reds had a real fight on their hands in the west and the Whites had a thorough kicking as regional forces all worked together including all the Cossacks working as a union. Very messy.
I've had an idea for 'Basmachis, Bolos and Brits' as a game for over a year now, but other things keep coming up. I think a 'Back of Beyond' megagame would have plenty of content!
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Shame I missed that one. Only been to the northern ones and those put on by Pennine Megagames
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Sorry for being a bit brusque, but this is way too complicated to absorb in a book or two.
My suggestion would be to pick a theatre based on what most interests you
1) Reds vs Southern Whites, has lots of colourful troops and easy to read up on
2) Reds vs Poles, has the most legitimate use of heavy equipment
3) Back of Beyond, where your imagination is king
Each of those people can help with. They are capable of being understood without reference to other theatres.
But there just isn't a set of books that will quickly cover the whole war. Most of it is barely covered at all in English, even briefly. If you want a good explanation of the many different Ukranian Nationalists, for example, you had better read Ukranian! I spent half a year trying to make even partial sense on the Ukraine in 1919.
I think a "clear list" of participants is not going to happen. Alliances were made and broken in a bewildering fashion, and with no simple split of "white" and "red". I suspect a total list would number a hundred or more separate entities.
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A lot of interesting points here. I think Marks about the Theatre you want to game is a particularly good one.
Personally I started with the Russian Far east, so working with Cossacks, ragged white troops and Mongolian irregulars and fairly generic Reds.
For my Reds I used Copplestone and other manufacturers with a mix of gear and colour schemes so they are slightly ragged looking, I added some Red sailors to give some colour to the forces and also some Austrian ex POW's fighting for the Reds still in mainly Austrian Uniforms (Internationalists)
The majority of these Reds I can use for other theatres so they can easily fight the Whites in Southern Russia or the Poles in, well Poland.
My Whites were initially going to be based around the Mad Barons army, so Fairly uniformed as well as completely irregular Mongols, Cossacks and ragged white troops of various types.
As usual I got carried away and added a load of Whites from Southern Russia and Don and Kuban Cossacks so I could do the Southern campaigns. some but not all could then be used for other theatres.
I have also started to build a Polish Army, clearly non of these can be used anywhere else but they are lovely.
Lots of people on here happy to offer help and advice, more than happy to share what I have but others on here know far more than I do.
I am currently reading "White Terror Cossack Warlords of the Trans-Siberian" which gives a really good idea of just how confusing and complex a single area of the Civil War became, it really does boggle the mind and there were at least 4 other main fronts as well as lots of smaller campaigns and theatres of conflict.
How about the British in 1918 fighting alongside the Reds in Baku against the Turks and local Muslim Tribes? Possibilities almost endless you just need to fins which bit suits you best.
Any help or even more confusing?
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some Austrian ex POW's fighting for the Reds still in mainly Austrian Uniforms (Internationalists)
Rogerc - I would be interested to hear what figures you used for the Austrians, and how well they blended in with Copplestone.
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A mix I think, let me get a picture for you.
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Here you go, real mix of figures, used the Renegade and Battle Honours figures but also a couple of Copplestone chinese with head swaps.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4743/39880653371_1a7c7f9b92_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/23L7LPV)IMG_20180124_203639 (https://flic.kr/p/23L7LPV) by Roger Castle (https://www.flickr.com/photos/152172226@N06/), on Flickr
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4653/39169286964_b01e399bf2_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/22FfQnS)IMG_20180124_203738 (https://flic.kr/p/22FfQnS) by Roger Castle (https://www.flickr.com/photos/152172226@N06/), on Flickr
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Figures at the end Copplestone reds for comparison
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Oh and dont forget to add Japanese to the list of potential adversaries if you do Siberia, they had whole divisions there bolstering Semenov's Cossack forces. Which then leads us to the Interventionist forces available for various theatres of the war, British in the far south and far north in either cold weather gear of sun helmets and shorts, Americans guarding the rail lines in Siberia, the Czech Legion, Poles, Rumanians, Serbian and Chinese Mercenaries, the French including the foreign legion, although mostly made up from Russian recruits.
I have to say its a fascinating period, full of drama and not a little horror.
Did you have something in mind when you started looking into it?
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Did you have something in mind when you started looking into it?
That's a good question.
I love the Copplestone minis and they are from a period I did not know well. I am a firmware engineer but my first education was poli-sci and history. I love those topics. One thing I like about wargame mini lines is that I get to go learn about different places, people, and events - and paint them.
Some of my ancestors escaped Lithuania in the early 1900s, before the Bolsheviks really caught on. There was a massacre by Cossacks working for the mayor of Vilna and they figured "that's it - off to America!" A lot like Dr. Zhivago, only what they showed in that movie was highly sanitized, according to my great-grandma.
We have tons of WWI, WWII, and Cold War literature but not a lot of what went on in Russia (at least in English in the US). I've read one Hopkirk book - it was great! But it's hard to really grasp the history before Stalin, both in Russia and Austria (where the rest of the family is from).
So, that's what I have in mind. :-) I just want to figure out the players so I will better grasp what was going on when I read about it. Make sense?
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I live just a few miles from Facebook
Not to hijack your thread, but If you're looking to to get into Back of Beyond gaming and live in the Bay Area, there are a few of us in the area who play and we'd be happy to have another player. We tend to play a bit more pulp than trying to recreate historical battles and set them along the Russian/Chinese/-Stan border region.
Chris
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Erikb, perfect sense. I hesitate to repeat was has been said by Cuprum and Mark earlier but to answer that we would have to treat each theatre seperately due to the complexities of the political and miliatry situation.
The Copplestone figures are designed for the far east and Siberia, but many can be used for other areas of the RCW. Thus what Hopkirk refers to as the Back of Beyond and what has inspired a lot of gamers.
in Siberia where Kolchak had advanced with his White armies to Irkutsk leaving a huge area of Siberia and the Russian Far East behind him, this was occupied by various Ataman forces, essentially local Warlords with armies and armoured trains brutalising and terrorising the local populace, supported by the Japanese and for the most part fighting red Partisans. The Ataman forces are at odds with Kolchak and come to blows in a small way a few times, the same happens with the Americans who are guarding the railway. The Czechs, Poles and Rumanians are fighting alongside Kolchak, their are white forces standing off against the Chinese in Manchuria. The Red armies have been driven out only to return and destroy Kolchak and most of the ATaman forces, the allies are fighting over the trains to escape across Siberia, the Czechs essentially sell Kolchak to a Red govornment that is not in line with the Bolsheviks and is more Socialist in appearence, you end up with the Czechs almost cordial with advancing reds whilst they almost end up at war with the remains of the Ataman forces. Demoralised white troops change sides in whole regiments, escape over the Chinese border to become mercenaries or be disarmed.
It is an ever changing chaos.
Add into this that Baron Ungern has recruited Mongolian cavalry for his division of Semenovs Ataman forces and eventually decides to invade Mongolia, destroy the chinese armies occupying it and then lead an army of ragged whites, cossacks and mongols back into to Siberia where it is destroyed in turn by the Reds.
I have only scratched the surface here and I am sure Mark and Cuprum are wincing at how simple I have made this sound. Very few of the whites were really monarchists, one of the reasons they did so badly was they did not have a single political vision other than none of them wanted the reds in power and thus were constantly undermining each other.
Again vast over simplification and this is just Siberia.
Think that you have similar things going on in European Russia, Northern Russia with British intervention in Archangelsk, The volunteer army in Southern Russia again with some support from the British, independance movements all around the edges of the old Empire such as Ukraine and Georgia, various factions fighting over the oil fields in Baku, local tribes, whites, interventionists and reds all over the Turkic regions and you get a feel of how complex it would be to talk through.
Looking at which region most appeals to you is the best way to start.
There are a number of books available in English but I think the best ones cover the specific regions you are interested in. There are some first hand accounts you can get hold of. Dmitri Alioshins "Asian Oddysey" gives an insiders idea of Baron Ungerns army in Mongolia for instance.
Thoughts?
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In the midst of all the confusion and chaos of 1918, the Germans sent an expedition to the Caucasus (Georgia, specifically). A very minor player in this whole business, but worth a mention for completeness' sake. I've read they got into a few skirmishes, with local "tribesmen" (whatever that means) and even their Ottoman allies. Whether or not that is true it might inspire some "what-if" scenarios. Might be worth a game or two if you already have Ottomans and Germans in your Great War collection.
These guys were the last German soldiers to arrive home from the Great War, it is said. Check out the German Colonial Uniforms site's page on the The German Caucasian Expedition for some thoughts on their appearance and uniforms.
http://s400910952.websitehome.co.uk/germancolonialuniforms/georgia.htm (http://s400910952.websitehome.co.uk/germancolonialuniforms/georgia.htm)
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Yes, Rogerc. You described the situation well (in short). You forgot to mention that before the seizure of Kolchak's power, there were still several anti-Bolshevik governments in Siberia (KOMUCH, Siberian government, Ufa Directory).
Pro-Bolshevik forces were also not homogeneous. In Siberia, for example, the proletariat, the main support of the Bolsheviks, was scarce. And the considerable forces opposed to the Whites, especially at the initial stage, formed the formations of Left Socialist-Revolutionaries and Anarchists (the forces of anarchists were even more significant than those of the famous "Father Makhno" - but unlike the latter, they did not enter into serious conflicts with the Bolsheviks up to the end of the Civil War).