Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: Irregular Wars Nic on January 12, 2018, 09:46:09 PM
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In his own thread, Eric (AKA nervisfr) posted a few queries and comments regarding my set of prehistoric hunting rules Palaeo Diet: Eat or be Eaten. I figured, if it's OK to do so, that I would make a new thread to answer his questions, and any others that get asked along the way. Feel free to add your own!
Rules design questions
* Fighting rules :
All our players know the ganesha game system and like it. They were surprise to see that you don’t choose the same game mechanism to rule fight/shoot sequences and the Character in PALEO DIET.
The profile’s characters of AdSOBH could be used to create animals like Big, Huge, etc......
Attacking was intentionally kept simple in PDEE for a few reasons:
1) The feeling was that we wanted to focus on the action-reaction mechanic and the relationship between hunters and beasts. Attacking, while obviously very important, was simplified to allow more nuance to the core mechanic
2) A beast should not automatically attack back if attacked. With the opposed roll system used for combat by many (not all) Ganesha games would have made this the case. 'Grogg raises he club to hit the goat, but instead the goat hit him' - that didn't feel right in the context of the game.
3) As a game intended to be suitable for solo play without any changes, it felt better having a single roll rather than opposed rolls.
4) The core mechanics also already called for so quite a bit of dice rolling, so this way of reducing additional dice rolls.
* Use of wind :
There is no wind rule concept (big classic of hunting).
May be it’s difficult to deal with ?
A bonus in the reaction table ?
Here you are sort of right. There is wind - used to determine ground fire movement. There is not any 'smell on the wind' rule in the published version of the rules. During playtesting we did have a smelly hominid rule which gave reaction modifiers to beasts standing down wind of a hunter. However, everyone agreed that the rule (in various different versions) added an extra thing to remember, but didn't add any real benefit to the game play.
We are currently working on an expansion (a narrative campaign with new scenarios and a few added beast types), and have been discussing a different way of introducing smelly hunters back into the game. Playtesting will tell if that is successful or not.
Rules questions
* Bow use:
In the rule, the bow receive a -1 for attack. Does it’s for shooting only or it’s for the fight in hand-to hand too . If the bowman is in base contact ?
In short terms :
Spear : no minus/bonus (shoot or base contact fight)
Club : + 1 in base contact fight
Bow : - 1 for shoot and base contact ?
Yes, that is correct. A bow always confers a -1 penalty representing the fact that arrows are lighter than a spear or club and that a bow requires more skill to use. In base contact, the hunter probably has a knife, but that, again, is considered less effective than a club or spear.
*Predator :
Request to hunt in pack but there is no bonus in the reaction table if an another predator (same species) is nearby the testing one.
A hyeana could be more aggressive if surronded by friend pack psychology (we stronger if we are in pack).
There is no need to run pack predators in packs, indeed, I never do with boar for example. You are right that there is no aggression bonus, but there is the Stampede reaction which will mean that is one pack predator is chased off, the others might flee too.
Home rules ideas (WIP) :
* Ammunition :
Do you try to use an ammunition expenditure system or something like ?
For example, in a several players game where one player drive only 1 or 2 figurines.
We found that’s could bring an another level to the game. In our 3 games, i noticed some hunters (spear or bow armed) going eagerly near a beast to shoot at them instead of cautious approches like true hunters. Wasting shots as it’s free and no nead to reloading, making the « Throw stone action » nearly useless because no wound can be inflicted compared to shooting (spear and bow).
I think an ammunition rules can make players more responsible about their shooting actions. If you have only 2 spears to use, you will try to make efficient shoot instead pelting anything approching. Especially with a predator in the area.
Throw a spear meaning, you have to get it back if you miss as soon as it’s possible.
Modelling spears or arrows is simple (toothpick as the simple way).
The spear/arrow’s model staying where the target was missed or killed.
Stones aren’t concerned of course.
A wounded animal bringing the missile with him or rendering it useless (on a D6 ?).
Yep, that would work. It adds a level of complication to the game which some players will like, and some will not, but in principal it sounds Ok. Three spears or eight arrows perhaps, with missiles that wound an animal saying in the beast on a roll of 1-3, or falling onto the ground on a 4+. Again, this would add extra dice rolling.
* Predator pack bonus :
+ 1 on the reaction table for more than one animal of the same specie at S ? M ? L ? of the reacting predator.
Could make the pack members more eager/aggressive when supported.
Again, that would work, just adding an extra modifier to remember. If you used it, I would keep it to within 1x Small radius.
* Reaction table
A modifier (like wounded) for a female greazer with her calf in danger for example....need a definition for this statut...
I have been considering adding guidelines for juvenile beasts which would do something like that. However, I don't think the current expansion is really the right place for that. I would suggest something fairly simple such as having juvenile beasts use the same reaction table as adults, but anytime they are attacked (not necessarily wounded), a specifically tagged parent beast would automatically react with an Attack response against the attacker.
The attributes would be: Savagery: always 6+; Resilience: as adult -1; Bulk: as adult -1
I hope those answers explain a few things. Let me know if there are any other questions.
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Thank you for your time! Will they be new type of beasts? Like armored beast (giant tatoo , crocodile), oceanic rules, (hunting wales or seals) in fact will they be an expansion?
Loving your game!
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Many thanks to Nic for the answers and rules clarifications.
;)
i'll report that to my club buddies :D
Aquatic could be fun . ;)
Many years ago i have created Whales hunt (in 15mm) working on reaction tables like in Tusk (at this time) and PALEAO DIET (now).
Ans since a few years, i have an egyptian hippo game hunt ,in mind....May be (now) on the PALAEO system, who's know ?
Cheers
Eric
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Mr. Nic, thank you very much for answering the rules questions! ;)
No wind rules = no hunting game worth of its salt for me. But who cares?! lol lol lol
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Mr. Nic, thank you very much for answering the rules questions! ;)
No wind rules = no hunting game worth of its salt for me. But who cares?! lol lol lol
dinohunterterpoa, why don't you create your own wind rules ?
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dinohunterterpoa, why don't you create your own wind rules ?
We've already did, of course! House rules are the best, EVER! lol lol lol
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dinohunterterpoa, why don't you create your own wind rules ?
I don't think you should encourage him. o_o o_o
I've tried the rules playing against
Giant Grazers - don't think they would care about human scent (we'll just tread on them)
Apex Predators - don't think they would care about human scent ( Food is coming our way)
Pack Predators - don't think they would care about human scent (Food is coming our way)
Herd Grazers - they probably too dense to worry, I've seen herds of grazers with predators all around and they only run when attacked.
I do think that if you are hunting a solitary animal then it's different, but herds tend to be a bit mindless, like humans really. My other thought and you can see I don't have many is that at this time we were probably as much prey as predator and if you attack a wolf with a spear you might not be the same adversary as if you had a gun. he might not fear you as much, even if you smell.
There are rules for wind to do with fire and the direction it goes, so it's maybe not a big issue and as nervisfr says you could use your own rules although you do not have to tell us what they are. lol lol
Cheers
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Thanks gents. As I said, we think there is a handy way of doing wind which doesn't require additional dice rolling, but it needs testing out.
At present there are four new beast profiles in the WIP campaign, this might stay at four, or go up to five or six.
I haven't tried crocodiles or hippos yet! Would a hippo just be a giant grazer able to move through water?
A crocodile would need some sort of attack which dragged the hunter towards it and into water... :?
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In my opinion, i think that Crocodile and Hippo need 2 reaction charts. 1 on land and 1 in water.
Hippo have very bad reputation in africa as being one of the most agressive animal on the continent (on land and on water).
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In my opinion, i think that Crocodile and Hippo need 2 reaction charts. 1 on land and 1 in water.
Hippo have very bad reputation in africa as being one of the most agressive animal on the continent (on land and on water).
Hippos are the most dangerous animal africa if I remember right.
They're the lunatics that are known to use their babies as bait to lure in crocodiles to kill.
Hell, they're becoming a nightmare in Columbia thanks to once being Pablo Ecsabar's favorite pets...
For Crocs...Africa has Gustave...
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Hippos are the most dangerous animal africa if I remember right.
They're the lunatics that are known to use their babies as bait to lure in crocodiles to kill.
Hell, they're becoming a nightmare in Columbia thanks to once being Pablo Ecsabar's favorite pets...
For Crocs...Africa has Gustave...
ahh Gustave . what an amazing creature ! Still alive ?
i found that picture for a comparison scale about Megafauna 's animals .
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4654/24907413077_cf3ec69620_b.jpg)
enjoy
Eric
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What do folks think of this approach to wind/smells then?
Optional rule: smelly hunters
For players wishing to add to their woes, why not admit that your hunters probably haven’t had a wash in a while. If the smelly hunters special rule is used, all hunters (but not hounds) are considered to produce a pungent scent that can be smelt by all beasts immediately downwind.
The smelly hunters rule uses the same method to determine wind direction as the ground fire rules (PDEE p.18). Note that wind direction is only ever rolled for once per hunt and will not change. The same wind direction should be used for smelly hunters and to determine the direction that ground fires will spread.
The Zone of Scent (ZoS)
The hunter’s scent wafts downwind to fill an equalatoral triangle template where each side measures 1x Long distance. We call this triangle the zone of scent, or ZoS. Some players may find it easier to create a template on a clear acetate sheet to hold adjacent to the hunter when there are beasts nearby.
Place one corner of the ZoS in base contact with the hunter and orientate the triangle in the direction of the wind as shown in the diagram below. As a rule of thumb, if any part of a beast’s base touches the ZoS, it can small the hunter. If in doubt, let the beasts have a whiff.
Whenever a hunter rolls to activate, any failed activation dice will cause the beasts nearest the hunter to react as described in the core rules (PDEE p.23). However, after rolling beast reactions, but before the hunter is able to complete their own actions, any beasts within the ZoS which have not yet reacted, will do so, with a -2 on their reaction roll. Treat all modified results of 0 or less as a 1.
Note that this means that every beast within a hunter’s ZOS will react when a hunter rolls to activate, regardless of the number of activation dice rolled, by the hunter or their results.
(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/26850088_779560305560460_455835692858773067_o.jpg?oh=414c9f6e3dc334c212216905b973bcd6&oe=5AE88F50)
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ahh Gustave . what an amazing creature ! Still alive ?
As far as I know, the possibly demonic nile croc is still wandering Africa...
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As far as I know, the possibly demonic nile croc is still wandering Africa...
Photographer Simona Doyle has taken pictures of it in July 2017. The YouTube videos featuring a supposedly captured Gustave are in fact of the saltwater croc Lolong of the Philippines, who died in captivity in 2013.
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Good stuff on the Smelly Hunters rule, Nic: it particularly interested my three young boys, for some reason. ::)
We will give it a try at the next opportunity, and see if it passes the sniff test.
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thank you nic for this sniff test.
I don't know if i'll use it but i like your first line that give me the answer For players wishing to add to their woes, why not admit that your hunters probably haven’t had a wash in a while"
This is a reason for me to don't use the sniff rule : hunters smell has strong as the beast they hunted lol lol lol lol lol so no need for wind...
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lol. Knowing them I understand their interest. ;)
Good stuff on the Smelly Hunters rule, Nic: it particularly interested my three young boys, for some reason. ::)
We will give it a try at the next opportunity, and see if it passes the sniff test.
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some new rules questions, coming back from my memory after our games :
* there is no "leapfrog" like other Ganesha games.
we can understand for the animal because their bases are very greater than the hunter's 25mm round one.
but why the hunters can't "leapfrog" ?
* Not a rules question ;
No budget cost to build a hunting party. A simple one (not like the mathematic's one from Ganesha).
Rating the weapon use and forcing players to make choice.
Eric
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* there is no "leapfrog" like other Ganesha games.
we can understand for the animal because their bases are very greater than the hunter's 25mm round one.
but why the hunters can't "leapfrog" ?
Leapfrogging the measuring stick is only really justified if there is an offset. So in most Ganesha games, a model can leapfrog, and having a larger base, means their movement is slightly longer, but it also means that more enemies can gang up in a melee. In Faustus Furius, a larger base allows chariots to move slightly further, but makes them less maneuverable.
In PDEE, there is no outnumbering bonus for melee, so the benefits of leapfrogging would make the game a bit unbalanced. Models with larger bases (usually larger figures) would be able to skulk further than figures on much smaller bases for example, and that was never the intention.
* Not a rules question ;
No budget cost to build a hunting party. A simple one (not like the mathematic's one from Ganesha).
Rating the weapon use and forcing players to make choice.
I don't really understand this as a question at all... It is true however. There is no points cost for creating the hunting party. Each tool type (spear, club, bow, fire) has positive and negative features. They were designed to be balanced overall, although some tools lend themselves better to some scenarios than others.
And if none of that made sense, apologies. I have the super nasty 2018 versiou of the flu and my head feels detached from my body!
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Thank you for your answers nic.
Take care of you ;)
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Back with a picture of my homemade spears , for testing an ammunition rule for our next games...
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4604/39928365181_8d71bd239d_b.jpg)
they are burned spearheads because i'm was too lazy to create silex head ones..... :?
Eric
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It's a lovely idea (and well executed).
Let us know how it works out.
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It's a lovely idea (and well executed).
Let us know how it works out.
thank you.
it's only toothpick with a little cutter work to make them slimmer.
Need some arrows too.... ;)
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Got another game tonight.
We're going to try another Aurochs hunt, adding in Hounds and the Smelly Hunters rule.
I'm also going to try these rules for juvenile Aurochs (using Nic's earlier comment as a starting point):
- Savagery: always 6+; Resilience: as adult -1; Bulk: as adult -1.
- For each juvenile, nominate a 'parent' adult.
- If a juvenile beast is the subject of an Attack action, the nominated parent will in turn react with an Attack Reaction on the attacker.
..but adding in these as well:
- A juvenile beast which gets an Alarmed, Flee or Move Away Reaction will move towards it’s parent where possible, avoiding impassable terrain, sheer drops or base contact with any hunters..*
- If a juvenile beast reacts with a Roar Reaction, it’s parent will move 1 x Medium towards it, avoiding impassable terrain, sheer drops or base contact with any hunters.*
Trying to keep it simple. I will report back on our findings.
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Those are some really nice extra rules there for juveniles. Do please report back and let me/us know how you get on.
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We have played 2 training games last friday for 2 newcomers to this rules.
one with herd grazers and small predator.
one with mammoths to taste the hard life of hunting of the time.
some pics will follow.
In my next game, i will try to add a new trait for hunter party. ;)
Handler
The hunter is known to get good feeling with hounds and be able to manage hound's training for hunting.
A Handler can control up to 3 dogs.
Each turn, he may reroll one failed hound's activation die, but only for one of his hounds. The control over the Hounds isn't yet total ;)
Eric
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Handler
The hunter is known to get good feeling with hounds and be able to manage hound's training for hunting.
A Handler can control up to 3 dogs.
Each turn, he may reroll one failed hound's activation die, but only for one of his hounds. The control over the Hounds isn't yet total ;)
Eric
That is a nice new trait as well.
Without giving away too many reveals, we have been beavering away play testing the forthcoming expansion for Palaeo Diet: Eat or be Eaten. Once provisionally called 'Tales of Herc the Hero', it will be called the more open-ended Fireside Tales.
http://irregularwars.blogspot.co.uk/2018/03/playtesting-fireside-tales-for-pdee.html (http://irregularwars.blogspot.co.uk/2018/03/playtesting-fireside-tales-for-pdee.html)
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-E_2aZdAgoEc/WqWP6SfcJzI/AAAAAAAAGFA/3qD122jpWKgAHeIOT_PpJ7iOKht8yw9oACLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_20180310_201254.jpg)
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Great news nic !
an another rules clarification needs :
in the Shaman Trait
"...If, during the course of the hunt, the Shaman rolls a combination of failed and successful activations, they may spend 1 successful activation to modify the reaction die of the nearest beast by up to +/-3. "
About the rolls a combination of failed and successful activations, does it's mean, only one time or every time it's happen ?
cheers
Eric
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Great news nic !
an another rules clarification needs :
in the Shaman Trait
"...If, during the course of the hunt, the Shaman rolls a combination of failed and successful activations, they may spend 1 successful activation to modify the reaction die of the nearest beast by up to +/-3. "
About the rolls a combination of failed and successful activations, does it's mean, only one time or every time it's happen ?
cheers
Eric
Every time it happens in the game - but they can only modify it if they spend a successful action of course.
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Thank you Nic.
a new trait for our future test in demo :
Pyromaniac
Fall in love with the Fire and is very obsess about it.
When starting a groung Fire, this Hunter start always 2 Fires pern turn instead of the one authorized
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a new to go with the Wind rules ;)
Stinky :
the Hunter release naturally an animal scent.
So the Wind rules doesn't apply to him.
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a new to go with the Wind rules ;)
Stinky :
the Hunter release naturally an animal scent.
So the Wind rules doesn't apply to him.
lol lol lol lol lol
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Just putting a bookmark in :)
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Just get a new gadget to give more fun in a PALAEO DIET. lol
For the drawing lots about characters ' traits between the hunters, i use small pebbles where i write the character trait's name on .
Then drop the lot into a small bag for mixing ;)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/784/39726172320_654a7bc0bd_b.jpg)
Eric
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new trait (not yet tested)
Stone-Deaf :
This hunter doesn't react as other hunters to the Roar rules because he can't be so impressed by the animal's roaring.
He test only with his 2 fresh dice. No pain, no stress !
;)
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So nice the little stones!
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Just get a new gadget to give more fun in a PALAEO DIET. lol
For the drawing lots about characters ' traits between the hunters, i use small pebbles where i write the character trait's name on .
Then drop the lot into a small bag for mixing ;)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/784/39726172320_654a7bc0bd_b.jpg)
Eric
Nice idea! :-*
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Lovely thematic idea!
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in a near future, the bag will be in imitation animal skin to look really prehistoric.... lol lol lol
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Hi Eric - that's a nice smart idea. 8)
Cheers
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thank you guys,
a new trait (not yet tested):
Marskman
Expert in shooting, this guy knows how to handle his bow/sling and he use better weapon than the average hunter.
So for a Pelt action with an aimed shot, the hunter spend 2 actions but the -1 malus doen't apply to this expert shot.
In base contact attack, the malus still applied, of course
;)
cheers
Eric
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Eric, those stones look lovely. What sort of pen did you use? Or was it a brush? Anyway, very nicely done! I love thematic additions like that. :)
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Eric, those stones look lovely. What sort of pen did you use? Or was it a brush? Anyway, very nicely done! I love thematic additions like that. :)
Thank you Arundel.
i like it too. Especially for demo game. That's bring the level higher with fun.
My next addition is rulers made like miniatures spears (for Long and Medium range, and may be arrow for Short range), in the prehistorical fashion look of course ! lol lol
i use the most little pen tip i could found in paint pen range.
i found the Posca 0.7mm white at amazon
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61RtQmhw13L._SY355_.jpg)
Eric
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That's a great tip (no pun intended!). Thank you!!!
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Thanks Nic for taking the time to answer questions and for clarifying rules and to everyone for sharing their ideas. It's greatly appreciated.
Eric,
The stones look brilliant. I really look forward to seeing the rulers!
Especially for demo game. That's bring the level higher with fun.
My next addition is rulers made like miniatures spears (for Long and Medium range, and may be arrow for Short range), in the prehistorical fashion look of course ! lol lol
Eric
I agree Eric! I enjoy making or searching for game accessories to compliment the period I am playing, using reproduction Roman dice for my ancient games or buying particular dice for an army or theme, drinking horns as dice shakers, period styled dice bags, American Civil War era playing cards for my ACW games (Brother Against Brother), etc...
Cheers,
Barry
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hey Barry S,
i'm join you on this point of view :D
When i played in DBM' s competition, a long time ago, i used to wear something relative to my army :
Hawaiin = hawaiin shirt, Khmer = elephant t shirt, etc.........
this is how to bring fun in an hostile environment lol lol lol
and
here is the first of my stick ; the "Long" one.
natural wood + natural pebble + natural string ;)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=102523.30)
Eric
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new trait (not yet tested)
Stone-Deaf :
This hunter doesn't react as other hunters to the Roar rules because he can't be so impressed by the animal's roaring.
He test only with his 2 fresh dice. No pain, no stress !
;)
an another option for this trait:
This hunter doesn't react as other hunters to the Roar rules because he can't be so impressed by the animal's roaring.
No test at all for animal's roaring but can't receive any free Action from the "Thinker" hunter. He is stone-deaf so he can't heard the good opinion from the Thinker.
;)
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I would go with the second version Eric, but make the hunter test with a single fresh dice. S/he can presumably see the roaring beast, even if deaf.
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I would go with the second version Eric, but make the hunter test with a single fresh dice. S/he can presumably see the roaring beast, even if deaf.
ok well done then. ;)
This hunter doesn't react as other hunters to the Roar rules because he can't be so impressed by the animal's roaring.
Test only with 1 fresh dice for animal's roaring Test but can't receive any free Action from the "Thinker" hunter. He is stone-deaf so he can't heard the good opinion from the Thinker.
And we can do that with the 5 senses lol lol lol
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/959/41183370254_0c7b1d74e5_b.jpg)
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A couple of angry critters for the forthcoming supplement, Fireside Tales.
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-t7_eC3mo9EU/Wu1rnA5WmmI/AAAAAAAAGPA/nJz4cxVcL80bu_qKMAhHMUjyndl2vRjQQCLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_20180505_090629.jpg)
Fireside Tales introduces four new fearsome threats to Palaeo Diet: Eat or be Eaten. The least of the new beasts is the angry critter. Angry critters represent small but aggressively territorial beasts such as badgers, stoats, snakes, wild cats or even swooping magpies. They do not pose any significant threat to hominids or other larger creatures, but they can certainly be a nuisance.
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-hOI31BXQ4OI/Wu1rnCGE-aI/AAAAAAAAGPE/p47GUn-MhPYRMN7VDl_h9Brfg5bL_K7lACEwYBhgL/s1600/IMG_20180505_090515.jpg)
These wee beasties are pretty much the antithesis of the much more timid 'regular' critters in the core game. Flushed out of hiding in the same way, they will always attack the hunter or hound that discovered them, and then will continue to patrol their terrain piece with bravado far bigger than they are.
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superb !
Like Badger ? Wolverine ?
or white rabbit , the most vicious creature's of the world ?
https://youtu.be/XcxKIJTb3Hg?t=110 (https://youtu.be/XcxKIJTb3Hg?t=110) o_o