Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of the Big Battalions => Topic started by: jon_1066 on January 19, 2018, 11:39:12 AM
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I have been fiddling around with a homebrew set of rules based off the Lion Rampant basic game engine. I have always been attracted to the 6 mm look for Napoleonics. My thinking is as follows:
Basic base is a Company 50 mm by 10 mm that is 10 figures by 1. Basic ground scale is 720:1 so 1" equals 20 yards
Basic unit is a Battalion so a typical unit will have 4-6 bases. These can then be moved to give the different formations. A close column or line can therefore occupy the correct amount of room on the battlefield.
The Lion Rampant activation mechanic will prevent micro management of the formations (since it is harder to change them all the time - you have to focus on what really needs to be done). Changing formation can also bring disorder which is a disaster in close combat.
Movement is based upon the pace chosen (eg ordinary step, double time, etc) with the chance of disorder increasing with speed and formation type.
The Lion Rampant combat is kept but armour is related to Formation (for shooting skirmish - 4, Line -3, Square - 2, Close Column - 1 and opposite for melee)
Close combat is based upon the activation roll to give Attacker Impetus. The Defender rolls 2D as well to give Resolve. Modifiers change these values. Lower retreats taking the difference in casualties. This may cause them to rout or become battered. Only fight a melee if the scores are equal (so about 10% chance depending upon the modifiers) or if the Attacking unit has sufficient Impetus to catch a retreating Defender
Minimal markers to be used. Different troop types should hopefully be apparent from their uniforms and colours. Regulars, Guard, Light should be distinctive enough. Drummers on a separate base represent well drilled troops. Well led troops have leader vignettes on a separate base (more figures = higher level).
There is no removal of bases so casualties are tracked using casualty figures.
I have had a few test battles with bits of card for the bases and it seems to work well. A highlight so far was a squadron of Dragoons catching two Russian battalions in the flank one after the other sending them routing from the board closely followed by the dragoons themselves being routed by a Russian cavalry brigade.
I will use this thread to document my steps along the way. So next thing to do is order some 6 mm figures to see how practical the company bases are with actual figures rather than pieces of card (which worked fine). I am going for Baccus to minimise the snipping and basing.
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Lots of interesting ideas.
The Lion Rampant combat is kept but armour is related to Formation (for shooting skirmish - 4, Line -3, Square - 2, Close Column - 1 and opposite for melee)
I particularly like this bit, simple, but representative.
I do wonder if you will find having lots of fairly small bases to move a bit fiddly. I've played lots of Warmaster where units are three 40x20mm bases with 10mm figures. And when in column its not so bad as you can slide the whole unit. But in lines they can be quite slow to move. And with only 10mm deep bases I think they will be harder to pick up.
I'd maybe try a mix of casualty markers and base removal - just to reduce the number of markers a unit can accumulate. I've done this with various of the rampant series and it works fine. You decide how many hits a base can take, I've used between 2 and 4, track those then remove a base.
Looking forward to seeing more.
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Close combat is based upon the activation roll to give Attacker Impetus. The Defender rolls 2D as well to give Resolve. Modifiers change these values. Lower retreats taking the difference in casualties. This may cause them to rout or become battered. Only fight a melee if the scores are equal (so about 10% chance depending upon the modifiers) or if the Attacking unit has sufficient Impetus to catch a retreating Defender
If I understood this correctly I like it a lot. Very rarely in rules sets we see the fact that most charges ended with one side fleeing directly. Good stuff.
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Thanks for the comments.
Re base removal I didn't really want to go down that road because my understanding was that if a battalion had sustained sufficient casualties that it would in effect reduce its line length in a battle it was pretty much spent anyway. eg morale would be so shot at say 25% casualties that it would be combat ineffective (ie would have become battered or routed by that point)
For the combat that is hopefully how it will work. Again my understanding is that a minority of combats actually ended in people crossing bayonets or some sort of scrum and that either the defender would run away or the charge would simply peter out. The casualties then represent the loss of morale that occurs in that unit. eg one that has petered out would be difficult to rouse to another charge. It also allows the defender (if charged from the front) to shoot at the attacker if their Resolve is high enough. The accuracy of this fire depending upon when the troops release it - again linked to the resolve. So a lower result means firing at a longer range. A high result means firing at point blank. Casualties from this fire can then reduce the attacker Impetus sufficient for them to peter out their attack. This then allows the British to "see them off in the same old fashion" but still allow French assault columns to blow away Austrian lines.
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oooooh, I'm starting to like that Resolve system. So it's basically "defensive fire yes/no" [or effective/ineffective] AND "stand or run" rolled into one. That sounds very good to me.
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Most interesting.
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Got a couple of test games in on Saturday night (Saturday night's for fighting after all). The first was a clash between a French and an Austrian infantry regiment. The French side cocked up deployment of their skirmishers, lost the battle of the skirmishers and was then shot off the table by some particularly well controlled Austrian skirmishers. Once one battalion broke the French took enfiladed fire from the skirmishers and it was over pretty quickly.
I have a Wild Fire mechanic where if a battalion fails its activation test and an enemy unit is in line of sight and in range it will open fire. The Wild Firing units are marked with smoke and roll half dice. The French in the battle suffered from a lot of failures with Wild Firing against Skirmishers resulting in a very one sided contest.
The second battle was a cavalry action. Two squadrons of French Chevaliers were trying to hold up an Austrian cavalry regiment with three squadrons. The Austrians approached en echelon attempting to flank the French. The French went for a charge first. They decided to charge with a single squadron with the second squadron providing cover.
I have a mechanic where units in a regiment can be deployed in Column and all activate together as a single large unit. The units then share casualties and get a bonus to their Impetus and Resolve in combat. In this instance the bonus to combat was outweighed by the fact that they can only attack one of the Austrian squadrons so then leave themselves exposed to an attack in the flank. By leaving one Squadron uncommitted it can counter charge an Austrian squadron that attempts to take the French squadron in the flank. Cavalry can counter charge a unit that launches an attack if it is to their front and within 24". Cavalry have quite large movement rates and can charge up to 30" depending upon their Impetus.
I'll break down the French attack. They rolled to activate and got a result of 8. This was modified with +1 for cavalry charging giving a total of 9. This is above the attack rating of chevaliers so the cavalry can then charge up to 18" (the result times two). The Austrians are only 10" away so the colours of the French squadron are moved into contact. Each unit has a separate small base (1 p piece) with their colours/eagle on. This is used to mark the front of a unit and also to save moving all the bases during combat and to make moving easier (only have to measure from the colours then re-position the remaining bases relative to the colours)
The Austrian squadron attempts to counter charge. It rolled 7 +1 for charging giving 8. This is above its attack rating so the counter charge would be successful but is one lower than the French Impetus. The squadron therefore loses its nerve and withdraws one ordinary move back from the contact point (8" for cavalry) becoming disordered and taking 1 casualty (the difference between the scores)
Unfortunately for the Austrians the French Impetus is sufficient to carry it to this point so a Melee occurs. The French colours are advanced. The French have two advantages over the Austrians (Good Order and Advancing) so hit on a 4. 12 dice are rolled with a rubbish roll giving four hits. The Austrians are in line so every 2 hits gives one casualty resulting in three casualties total for the Austrian unit.
The Austrians get to fight back rolling 12 dice hitting on a six. Two hits results in one casualty for the French. Both sides now have to make a courage test as they took casualties form the melee. The French roll 8 (minus one for the one casualty) giving an easy pass (courage is 4 which they have to equal or exceed). The Austrians are not so bold rolling a four - minus 3 for a result of 1. This is below their courage but still above 0 so they become battered and withdraw a further move (8"). The French move their bases up to the position of the colours. The combat is over and the French become disordered from the melee.
The next activation the French move their second squadron forward to be in charge range to protect their disordered colleagues. The next turn the Austrians pass their rally test. Quick turnovers occur with both sides failing their activation rolls until eventually the Austrians manage to activate a squadron to charge the flank of the disordered French squadron. The second French squadron counter charge to protect them but come off worse. Eventually the French lost a combat badly and a squadron routed from the field. One squadron facing three couldn't protect its flanks and was again routed by a flank attack.
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I ordered figures on Friday but there is a three week delay with delivery from Baccus at the moment so the appearance of any actual miniatures will have to wait. I'll continue to test the mechanics with cardboard.
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Question: two cavalry units charge/counter-charge. One scores 10, the other scores 5. The loser is disorganized and loses 5 casualties?
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Yes, that is the idea. Casualties actually reflects morale effects as much as actual dead. So in that instance the losers didn't even come to blows with the winners but turned and fled before contact.
To have casualties on both sides you would need a melee which only occurs if the scores are equal OR the winners have enough Impetus to carry them into the back of the losers.
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I ordered figures on Friday but there is a three week delay with delivery from Baccus at the moment so the appearance of any actual miniatures will have to wait. I'll continue to test the mechanics with cardboard.
Hey, if you need some 6mm Napoleonics you can drop by. I could do with a little lead mountain reduction. ;) How are you planning to base them?
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I was hoping to base a single company 50 by 10 mm but am not sure how unwieldy that will be, particularly is it deep enough? How easy will it be to handle them? Currently I can easily pick up and move the thick pieces of card I am using but am not sure how that will change with figures and terrain.
One good thing about Lion Rampant as a game engine is that you rarely move all your units each turn, many turns have one or two units move then a turn over so I am not too concerned about the quantity of bases.
Vienna is a bit far to pick up some figures :) I can see how easy it is to end up with a huge 6 mm lead pile - each unit is so cheap!
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Another test game last night. I have to say commanding a Napoleonic army is hard! I always seemed to have a unit in the way of the one I wanted to activate or they would start shooting when I wanted them to move.
I played defending the indefensible - a Battalion of Austrian infantry defend a village (the brown cardboard) waiting for the cavalry to arrive (literally) whilst a Bavarian force attempt to take it.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4694/39838578062_461b8d4192_z.jpg)
I forgot to turn the Bavarians to the brown side but basically Bavarians are to the left and Austrians to the right. A Bavarian light battalion has deployed as skirmishers to soften up the village whilst the line units attempt to close. The Austrian Skirmishers have hurried forward to help defend and the Austrians have bought on their cavalry regiment.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4626/39838586452_4ee3c4d020_z.jpg)
The end of the battle. You can see the Austrian cavalry deep in Bavarian territory having demolished the Bavarian cavalry in a series of charges, counter charges and melees. Losing their entire regiment was enough to bring the Bavarian force morale to 0 and lose them the game. You can see that Skirmishers had relieved the battered battalion in the village. The Skirmishers are the largest bases 100 by 20 mm with three to a unit.
The whole thing took an hour and a half with set up and take down. I used teddy bear stuffing to form hills under the cloth (which needs an iron to get the creases out). Will have to wait and see how effective it is with lead on top of it.
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Interesting. Do the skirmishers (3 companies?) fire with the same effectiveness as a full battalion?
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That is one of the things I have been toying with. Should they? In terms of amount of lead sent downwind they obviously shoot a lot less - but relative to their volume they are more usually sharp shooters and pick out officers so their morale effect could be nearly as much. Also the way things work out it is designed that if two wild firing battalions come to a firefight at 200 yards they don't inflict many casualties as it is. So if you downgrade skirmishers much below a normal battalion they will do precious little. So you end up with a lot of dice rolling for no effect (and no one wants that!). If you downgrade them they will also have to get to close range to have any effect - which doesn't feel very historical to me.
Short answer - for this battle they rolled 12 dice like a normal battalion.
For the next one I might try this - Skirmishers count the range as one closer but only ever roll 6 dice.
This links into a problem with showing different shooting ability between eg a 10 company British unit and a 4 Company Russian one with half the frontage and no practice. Likewise shooting in line or column by division. What advantage is their in a column by division compared to a single company column? I am toying with a sliding scale of dice from 6 up to 12. But did the Austrians out shoot the Bavarians (6 cos vs 4)? Logic would say that 900 Austrians should be able to out shoot 600 Bavarians if they both line up and let fly at each other at 100 yards.
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I should think one of the primary problems formed troops have with skirmishers is being shot at while not being able to see much damage inflicted against them. But that's another problem and not one that a simple game model needs to worry about. Do your skirmishers evade?
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Not specifically. If they get threatened then you have to move them back. If they are charged then there is the normal mechanic. The way it works at the minute they are very much a disposable asset - they go out and do a job to allow you to line up your assault.
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Thinking about skirmishers some more I feel that this method actually models the reality as well as can be expected (or at list drill books of the time).
Skirmishers would operate with a reserve of men about 100 yards ahead of a battalion with the actual skirmish line another 100 or so yards ahead of them.
If you imagine the skirmisher base actual represents the location of the reserve body of skirmishers and the actual skirmishers who are shooting are operating 100 yards beyond this location. Allowing them to shoot at one range band closer actually represents them being physically closer to the enemy. The enemy can't shoot back very well since the target is so small therefore don't get the benefit of the reduced range. When attacked Skirmishers are already assumed to fall back on their reserve position.
This could fall down when defending a physical barrier - eg an uncross-able river or edge of a town. Defending a built up area is a whole different abstraction though so I'll deal with that then.
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Whilst waiting for the minis to arrive I have been making some cardboard buildings for built up areas. Found this very handy webpage with a bunch of Bavarian looking buildings.
https://www.grundschule-pretzschendorf.de/en/Our_village/paper_models.html (https://www.grundschule-pretzschendorf.de/en/Our_village/paper_models.html)
I have printed them out at 2/3 scale (so on A5 instead of A4) which gives door heights of about 6 mm. This means they don't take up too much space but are still sort of in scale with the minis. They are quite fun to build. I have been mounting the main building on cereal packet and have switched to a thinner card for the more complex roofs. I will post up some pictures if anyone is interested in them.
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Great link, thanks.
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I will be following this link, as it is very interesting!
Good luck with your project!
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Experimented with some roads and a river over the weekend. The initial batch of figures have arrived as well so have based some of them up onto magnetic strips.
In line:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4665/40219512791_a0c4a5de44_z.jpg)
In column:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4609/26347134768_90d3e486e8_z.jpg)
You can also see the card buildings. I need to pen in the white cuts on the roofs on a couple of them still. The roads are decorators caulk piped onto a sheet of grease proof paper, flattened out with a finger, roughed up with a broken cocktail stick and dry brushed sand colour. The river is clear silicone sealant, again flattened out with a finger. Unfortunately it was too cold and windy at the weekend for any undercoating so painting the figures will have to wait.
On another positive note I have persuaded my family that our holiday destination should be Bavaria this summer. Just need to work out an itinerary that requires us to drive from Landshut to Regensburg to check out the lie of the land for the opening stages of the 1809 campaign ;)
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Really like the river! That is some realistic meandering going on there, we need more of that in miniatures.
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Your table looks very real from above and the road and the river are inspirational!
Thanks for sharing!
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Well I've been grinding along slowly with this. Still waiting for the weather to change to be able to spray undercoat the troops so have been continuing to work on the scenery. More buildings including a church, more roads and two woods. Went with 1" mesh panel cut out and legs folded down for trees. I then attached some hanging basket liner to the mesh using PVA then glued my clump foliage to the hanging basket liner in the same fashion. I am pretty happy with how they have turned out. They are tall enough to fit figures underneath.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4779/27025138948_5bdfdc2516_z.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/793/27025144918_227e81bc10_z.jpg)
With regards the rules I have moved away from the combat resolution of Lion Rampant somewhat. I have endeavoured to model more realistic musket ranges and effects. So with each range band expected casualties double but you can only fire at close and point bank ranges during the close combat resolution sequence. Artillery can still fire at those ranges so become very deadly but again do little at long range.
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Made a graveyard since most major Napoleonic battles seems to feature one.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/885/41164583302_4b806b3e36_z.jpg)
Obviously needs painting and some flock/sand, etc. It's made from plasticard, matchsticks and some cardboard.
Also been experimenting with individual trees
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/791/41164582442_09c27909bd_z.jpg)
Basically the clump foliage impaled on galvanised nails / tacks. Need to paint the nails and may add some flock to the tree for a bit more oomph.
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Finally managed to spray some undercoat with the warmer weather and paint my first 6 mm figures.
Front
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/826/41473129602_1036a153fc_z.jpg)
Back
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/930/41514339371_b01f17d32b_z.jpg)
Took a few trial and error mistakes plus painting the wrong part of the gun as the barrel (doh!). I undercoated them grey then dry brushed white. I then did the boots, back pack, roll, hat, flesh, cuffs, gun and gold in that order before finally picking out the straps in white.
I originally did the flesh first but found I couldn't paint the rest of the figures without many accidents. I also had to downsize my brush. I started with a 1 which proved too unwieldy so changed to a 0. It also took a while to get into the flow of painting 6 mm. I discovered that the best thing was to do the same set of brush strokes on each figure in turn rather than concentrate on painting one item or colour on each figure. This meant the strip didn't need manipulating continuously. Eg I would paint the side of the hat on each figure, then the front on each, then the rim on each, then under the rim on each. Hopefully the next stand won't take 2 hours!
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They look good.
I discovered that the best thing was to do the same set of brush strokes on each figure in turn rather than concentrate on painting one item or colour on each figure. This meant the strip didn't need manipulating continuously
This kind of method is great for smaller scale figures, and doubly so when they are the same pose on a strip base.
You will probably find you can drop some of the details as they won't be visible at gaming distance.
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Thanks
Well the next stand took just under an hour so getting quicker.
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I've now painted up the artillery.
The gunners
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/966/39882338410_7511c885af_z.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/982/26821111717_44b40ecd6b_z.jpg)
Guns and limbers
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/911/41689697311_ebc3d46c95_z.jpg>)
These are painted Foundry triad ochre - just the shade and top colours.
Horses
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/976/26821117377_00324246ef_z.jpg)
I went with a mix presuming that the artillery train will be scratching around for horses once the campaign gets going.
Drivers
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/910/39882336980_56dab713ff_z.jpg)
A limber and horse team on a base
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/971/26821114287_6007472411_z.jpg)
Still need to add more ground cover to hide the integral base. Also need to decide on the base size. I might cut it down to 25 mm wide so two cannons match the 50 mm wide infantry and cavalry bases.
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Done some cavalry. Painting the edge of the blankets was "interesting"
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/906/41080246584_e90a7603b4_z.jpg)
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Those are huge.
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What? The size of the blankets? Or the gold piping?
I believe a common complaint about the Baccus cavalry is that the horses are too small. Having said that when you look at uniform images they appear to be quite large relative to the horse.
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"Painting the edge of the blankets was "interesting"
Don't know if this works in 6mm, but I paint the piping color first and then the main color. In 15mm I find this much easier for some reason.
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Thanks for the idea - I will give that a go.
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Started experimenting with basing methods. This is some fine sand with diluted PVA. I will give it a light coating of a suitable green for grass then perhaps try fixing on some small clumps of foam for bushes or static grass.
Infantry bases
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/868/41126810744_ae189dca71_z.jpg)
Cavalry
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/865/41126810414_a416fd0275_z.jpg)
Group shot
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/828/27974914888_b7d4ea4064_z.jpg)
I haven't sanded the artillery bases yet.
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Finished three whole bases!
Well my first complete 6 mm figures. I went over the faces with some flesh shade then a dab of light flesh to bring out the face a bit more. I will do this from now on on the other models.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/976/41988987002_74904bc7ea_z.jpg)
It's amazing what a bit of grass can do.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/903/41313200944_7365b973e6_z.jpg)
One thing I don't like about the baccus figures is a very prominent mould line. It's actually more than that - it appears that the moulds were misaligned in casting. You can make it out in the faces of the cavalry. Each figures has a little step in it. It is there on the infantry but not so prominent. It is equally bad on the skirmishers.
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The first completed unit: A battery of horse artillery
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/968/42295652671_b6fd5d41cb_z.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/886/40489549960_4ec81802b8_z.jpg)
Also based a set of skirmishers to see how they would look. Quite happy with that so will proceed with them all like this:
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/944/40489550770_66bf6b08e1_z.jpg)
It's meant to represent the zug that forms the reserve with the skirmish line further advanced.
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Painted some command stands. A big shout out to Warflags. What a great site.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1725/40640551740_0e08ae5254_z.jpg)
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1750/27578515547_5377086a4f_z.jpg)
There is another but I didn't take a photo.
The Warflags site http://www.warflag.com/ (http://www.warflag.com/)
and the Napoleonic site http://www.warflag.com/napflags/index.htm (http://www.warflag.com/napflags/index.htm)
These are from the napflag site printed out at 25% on a colour laser printer
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Finished the first infantry unit - six companies making up the 1st Battalion of the 28th Infantry Regiment of the Austrian Army in 1809 (or any other green trimmed unit)
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1758/41895695764_9a1aa9d2af_z.jpg)
In column:
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1748/41895695374_9b624cde7b_z.jpg)
Square:
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1735/41713596795_8660aeeb36_z.jpg)
I'm pretty happy with how they work for the different formations for a battalion level game.
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Still ticking along with this.
I have also been experimenting with a Brigade level game using the same basing. Basically each base is a battalion with a ground scale of 1" = 100 yards. These are combined into Brigades which are the main unit of the game. Cavalry bases are regiments and artillery single batteries
It is a mash up of Black Powder and Lion Rampant (though has moved a long way from that.) Due to the ground scale shooting is only done by Skirmishers and Artillery. Line units shoot as part of the close combat resolution (which is done by opposed dice rolls)
Still working on the painting slowly but had a quick test battle last night. Cardboard stand-ins for most of the units:
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/852/41800305680_1a3f93d20b_z.jpg)
At the top French skirmishers have engaged the Austrian defenders. At the bottom French cavalry have forced back the Austrian cavalry in disarray. The Austrians are going to have to try to use their reserve to shore up their left and see what of their cavalry they can rally.
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Don't you mean a divisional level game if you have a whole division's worth of brigades?
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I have taken Brigade level to mean the basic unit in the game is a Brigade. ie that is what you order about the place. Each side has 5 Divisions in the game above, so that makes probably one or two Corps. However the game could be expanded to multiple Corps a side. Naming it after the size of force you command would get confusing as the rules don't changes if you have 1 Corps per side or 3 making it an Army level game.
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While I see your logic Jon, I think Vodkafans interpretation in the way I see it used generally. A warband level game is a game where you field one warband, not multiple...
Either way, it looks bloody amazing!
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Thanks YPU. Well whatever it is called it seems to work at that level as well.
I am pretty happy with the look of the battlefield. Just need to paint more figures and tinker with the rules around the edges.
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Jon, a very nice look and an interesting way to highlight the value of skirmishers and differentiating from line by allowing fire. Good thread.
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Thanks. It is a scale thing. Once you get to 1" = 100 yards the really effective killing range of the musket is only about 100 yards itself so only 1" on the battlefield. It makes a lot more sense to me to have that close range fire as part of the attack resolution. So units cannot move within 300 yards without actually launching an attack.
Using the opposed dice rolls allows a number of results from such an attack. Basically the higher total shoots last with double dice (this sounds counter intuitive but basically the side that shoots last shoots from the closest range and thus has more effect).
For Skirmishers the base represents the formed reserve location so actual men would be operating up to 200 yards advanced of that and shooting 3-400 yards - hence they can perform long range shooting up to 6" range.
Artillery range is about 1200 yards max so 12". Canister is 6" range.
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Well more slow progress - another unit of Austrian horse
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1941/31237792838_95a4df63e6_z.jpg)
A shot of everything that is finished so far:
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1963/45111510401_a8aecbeae7_z.jpg)
I have three more bases of infantry to paint then I am waiting on an order from Baccus for some French opponents.
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Started on some French
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1918/44748484945_eea4e90bd5_z.jpg)
Need to finish their bases and paint their pom poms.
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Le Tondu would approve.
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Merci mon ami!
I think I'm getting better and understanding a little more what to do with the 6 mm chaps. I have to say I was very disappointed with my efforts on these until I painted the white fronts and suddenly they were transformed into proper little French men.
I told myself I wasn't going to paint the Shako chords on the grounds that they were often removed in battle but once I started I couldn't not paint them. As a bonus it also helps differentiate them from the Austrians further and it actually didn't take too much longer.
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The first French cavalry: some Chasseurs.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4864/43928627830_f130355ce5_z.jpg)
Cavalry are definitely time consuming. I think I painted the musician trousers the wrong colour as well - should be green. Will touch up when I do the other strip.
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Here are the completed Chasseurs - just need to paint the base and grass it.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4829/45793031191_5631bd0e79_z.jpg)
I may add a few more markings to the horses as the white blazes, etc really seem to bring them to life.
Might try to tackle the Cuirassiers next or go back to another unit of infantry.
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Completed Chasseurs
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1945/45861179451_58749b6f59_z.jpg)
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Completed first unit of French infantry:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4883/44548258400_5b82c984f5_z.jpg)
Need to order some more elite infantry for the Grenadier Companies.
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Still pottering along with this. Painted a few more Frenchies and had another test battle. An Austrian rear guard attempts to delay the French.
Austrians wait for the French to arrive
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7894/32984368948_bbf6a1c5ca_z.jpg)
Battle is joined
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4877/32984369488_b20b43f2aa_z.jpg)
A disastrous cavalry charge by the Austrian horse (it wasn't a good idea to begin with but a roll of snake eyes saw it turn into a rout) meant the Austrian left wing collapsed. Despite a valiant defence by the Austrian infantry they were cut off and destroyed. The French Horse captured the Austrian Deployment Point so they had nowhere to run to.
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...Despite a valiant defence by the Austrian infantry they were cut off and destroyed. The French Horse captured the Austrian Deployment Point so they had nowhere to run to.
Hmm, that sounds a trifle drastic.
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In actual rule terms their force morale collapsed to zero. I have shamelessly stolen the Force Morale rule from Chain of Command. So as units are lost force morale reduces. Once it reaches zero the battle is lost.
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OK, that goes down easier. Friends of mine call pinching rules "paying them the ultimate compliment".
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Looking very good. 8)
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Thanks for the comments. Here are some French Artillery.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7831/40525675713_9591c3c249_z.jpg)
I am also working my way through the French Infantry. I'll need to put an order in for more figures soon. I still have a heap of Cavalry to paint but figure more infantry is always good. I am aiming for Tuegen Hausen to start with then perhaps scaling up to Raab.
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Very good job!
Eager to see some more group pics from your games! Cheers!
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Well things are still going very slowly with this project. I managed to get a game set up last night.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48919005811_04e668d6e9_z.jpg)
Not a great shot but you get the idea. I need to paint 12 more bases of French plus command stands and skirmishers, 7 Austrians plus 8 Grenadiers, some Austrian Artillery, make a tonne of woods and about 6 feet of roads. Oh and iron that blinking cloth as well.
I cut up some old carpet underlay to give the contours for Teugen Hausen. They aren't very clear on the photo but work OK in real life. I really need to improve the lighting in that room as well. Didn't have time to actually play it out bit happy with where it is headed.
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Well some more progress in lockdown. I've managed to paint more French, some Austrian Hussars and Grenzer and change the rules again. Taken it back to a simpler version more akin to the Lion Rampant base engine.
The first battle is the opening salvo of the 1809 Danube campaign with the Bavarian defence at Landshut.
Austrian V Corps prepares to advance
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50008459472_39e0fa6808_k.jpg)
The Bavarian (stand in French) defence.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50008198156_4493ec87a8_k.jpg)
The Area between Landshut in the south and Altdorf in the North is wet water meadows. Artillery can't cross it and it is rough ground for formed troops so the main road is a crucial part of the battlefield.
The Bavarians need to delay the Austrian advance as long as possible but keeping losses to the minimum. The battle played out fairly historically. Austrian artillery dominated the crossing outside Landshut allowing the Austrians to cross. A fighting withdrawal was successfully carried out with the water meadows hampering the attacking Austrians.
The Austrians are led by the Kienmayer Hussars against the Bavarian rear guard
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50007712168_6d035a3eb4_k.jpg)
Next was Tugen Hausen, then Abensberg. Still a lot more to paint for Eggmuhl.
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Tugen Hausen next
The opening, French in the North near Tugen. Part of Davouts Corps are marching through with some skirmishers foraging. An Austrian Brigade advances down the sole road with Grenzers in the woods to their left.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50008526842_12da5a2a9f_k.jpg)
The combined fire of the skirmishers and French brigade drive the Austrians into retreat.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50007734923_a0d78b2aee_k.jpg)
The French brigade are disordered in the combat.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50008271266_98bae83239_k.jpg)
I have decided to use trees mounted on a penny to mark disorder. They are not visually jarring but are obvious enough that they are visible. One token is disordered, 2 for wavering (no attacking for you) and 3 for retreating. A fourth and the unit routs from the board.
Again the battle played out fairly historically. Austrian reinforcements were slower to show up than the French and their advantage in artillery couldn't be bought to bare because of the single road through the wood. Result Austrians fail to capture Tugen to cut off Davouts corps thus setting up Napoleon's counter blow at Abensburg.
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So beautiful terrain! Must have been very enjoyable to play a big battle!
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Thanks Din. Yes it was nice to get everything out - and that all the minis were painted. Could do with a few more buildings and roads and something to use for a smaller stream rather than a river.
Abensburg next. Austrian V corps is defending the line of the Abens against the Bavarians of VII Corps and Wurtembergers of VIII corps. All German allies have French stand ins.
Wredes second division attacks Bianchis Brigade with Radzetsky in the background guarding the crossing at Siegnberg.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50008250906_5a03be8063_k.jpg)
Bianchi is put into retreat. The Beaulieu infantry regiment and a 6lb foot battery cover their withdrawal.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50008250731_d642363ee1_k.jpg)
Wurtermberg light infantry are scattered by charging Hussars in front of Siegenberg. The Hussars are fortunate that a follow up attack into the Infantry brigade guarding the bridge just resulted in a withdrawal rather than the hussars being blown or worse.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50007717518_503038a4ad_k.jpg)
Off the field portrayed, historically the Bavarian 1st Division were mauling Thierry's brigade to the north and Lannes was driving his corps toward the Austrian line of retreat so a general retreat is sounded for the Austrians having done well to hold up the Allied army in this sector.
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That's a good looking game. I like that it looks like real terrain, with big woods, and gentle slopes, not what we normally end up with on wargames tables.
I also like that the infantry look like proper long thin lines of troops.
I was going to suggest you look at Rebels and Patriots - as that is the official Horse and Musket take on LR, but I think you are well beyond that in your scale of game now!
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Thanks fred.
I like 6 mm for the look you can achieve. There is still a huge compression of the battlefield in terms of the villages and towns but at least it sort of looks something like a natural landscape. I really dislike the whole "plonk five bits of terrain on the board" look.
I saw Rebels and Patriots was released. Looking at it it is a bit too skirmishy. eg Infantry ranges are 12". That's over a kilometre in the ground scale I want.
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I saw Rebels and Patriots was released. Looking at it it is a bit too skirmishy. eg Infantry ranges are 12". That's over a kilometre in the ground scale I want.
It very much is a skirmish set of rules, and I suspect from what you have used from LR to make a battle scaled game changes nothing significant.
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Hi Jon,
Looks like you have a very interesting project. I would agree, I also find 6mm the best of scales!
Do you have a write up of the rule changes you are using now? I have tried going through the thread but it is difficult to work out what changed when and what is still your current thinking.
Thanks!
LS :)
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Its changed quite a bit from the start. The latest iteration is much closer to the basic Lion Rampant engine
Each base is 3 strength points
Infantry have four bases, artillery, skirmishers and cavalry have two bases
Armour is basic 2 hits for 1 casualty for everything
I didn't want to count casualties so a base is only removed if a unit takes three casualties in a single attack. This also has the effect of making units quite durable to niggling long range fire but get bashed up very easily in situations that are bad for them.
A failed courage test gives a disorder. Two disorder and you can't attack, three and you have to retreat (ie battered). Four and the unit routs. Each disorder also gives -1 on all dice rolls (so activations, courage tests and to hit - a 6 is still a hit) and -1 armour in close combat (min 1)
Most things hit on a 5. Skirmishers and artillery roll 6 dice in close combat, cavalry roll 6 dice when shooting. Cavalry get a charge bonus +1 when attacking, Infantry and Artillery get a defence bonus of +1 when defending to the front. Artillery get +1 to hit up to 6" range when shooting and usual -1 over 12"
Movement is cavalry move 3" plus total rolled to activate, Infantry 2" plus highest dice rolled, Artillery 1" plus lowest dice rolled.
Skirmishers have +1 armour against shooting but -1 armour in close combat.
Musket range is 6", Artillery 18".
Rough ground automatically disorders all units except skirmishers.
Cover gives +1 armour vs shooting
Defending an obstacle gives +1 armour in combat.
A major obstacle automatically disorders a unit crossing it
That's most of it. I've added colour parties to give +1 to activations and courage tests; and units with a leader get to re-roll a failed activation.
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Hi Jon
Thank you for the quick reply! I see what you mean it does read as very similar to Lion Rampant. Here in Hamburg, we currently (before the Pause!) use General d'Armee, which I find excellent but it is difficult to play a large game within an ok time. And tbh, all of the other battalion level rules out there aren't that appealing to me for one reason or another. But we do also play LR and really enjoy it. Hence the interest in your conversion.
I really like the fact that skirmishers, if left un-dealt with, can slowly whittle down a formed unit/make them easier to break once the attack columns arrive!
A couple of questions, I hope that is ok.
Are you infantry units representing Brigades or battalions?
And how do you account for different size/quality of units within the brigades?
You say Cav gets 6 dice, do you account for any difference in the type of Cav?
Do you differentiate between foot and horse artillery? It is not clear from your movement rates. And do you require your guns to limber and un-limber?
How do you differentiate between infantry formations? Or is it assumed that they will form the best formation for the local tactical situation?
Thanks!
LS :)
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I can ping you the rules I've written out if you like.
Units are brigades with individual bases roughly one battalion.
Different quality/size can give bonuses or negatives to courage tests for the brigade as a whole, the individual battalions aren't differentiated. At the extreme you could start an infantry brigade down one base (but that is quite a penalty).
For cavalry they can attack with 12 dice but shoot with 6. Most cavalry were equipped with firearms so it allows them to skirmish. A stand up fire fight with infantry will be bad for them though.
Heavy cav get an additional +1 to hit in combat. Lances get +1 to hit vs non lancers. Most cav get follow up (so can attempt to make a second attack), Light Cav have Skirmish.
I allow horse artillery to move as normal infantry (so 2" plus highest of the activation dice)
I haven't bothered with limbering, etc. If the gun is pointing the correct way it can shoot otherwise you have to move it.
Infantry have a Form Up special rule which gives them +1 Armour in combat but -1 Armour vs artillery. So they can form up vs cavalry but then get mauled by enemy artillery.
I've tried to keep the KISS principal in mind - so if I could remove something I did. I'm still tinkering with it though.
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Played a game with my 11 year old son today. A sort of Aspern Essling with admittedly far fewer troops. Here you can see the Austrian assault on Aspern.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50072251421_50c513bd2e_k.jpg)
Slightly simplified rules but they worked well.
I've manage to build more forest and roads. I've also produced some smaller streams. Brown decorators caulk smoothed in the middle then painted a murky green.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50072251141_266dcdd7cc_k.jpg)
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Very nice indeed.
Indoctrinate, er... start 'em young! lol
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Why is it every time I post I get a warning that this thread hasn't been posted to for ages? Well the stop start hobby time answers that. I have recently managed to get some more painting in though.
A unit of French cuirassiers
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50690678921_70388d5d92_k.jpg)
I've also completed more French infantry and Austrian grenadiers and line infantry. I'll try and take some shots of those as well and perhaps have a parade to see what I have and what I need. Looking at the OOBs for the 1809 campaign one thing is definitely Austrian artillery. They seemed to be packing a lot of it in the Danube theatre. Oh also need some 2 mm static grass. Ordered 4 mm by mistake and it is too long.
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Got back to painting these little guys.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52169483819_579cdfaa0e_k.jpg)
Austrian Hussars. Figures are Adler. I like them slightly more than the Baccus cavalry due to their dynamic pose. The swords are tricky though to not bend them all the time.
Need to paint more artillery and limbers next.
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Very nice indeed! Never tried Adler, but it seems like at some point I must. Just to get a better idea of the differences with Baccus.
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Thanks. If I was smarter I would have used the differences to better ID the units. Eg I’ve got Adler French guard in advancing poses to help differentiate them further from the regular Baccus infantry. The cavalry I should have gone for light cavalry from one and heavy from the other as the poses are very different though they are fine scale wise in the same battle.
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Well - managed to get a game in against another human being. The first battle of Landshut
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52775167465_3e5a2f93e5_k.jpg)
Austrians have forced the crossing of the Iser thanks to their artillery and are advancing on the French rear guard
The French hung around too long and were caught trying to withdraw. Four French units were routed to two Austrian so a resounding win for the Austrians.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52774216872_5a5882612f_k.jpg)
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Just in case anyone is interested the brown roofed buildings are from here:
http://www.kaukapedia.com/index.php?title=Bastelbogen:_Romantische_Altstadt (http://www.kaukapedia.com/index.php?title=Bastelbogen:_Romantische_Altstadt)
They are from an old German magazine from god knows when with a bunch of old style German town buildings. They are really good (if a little intricate in places) and you can print them at any scale you want.
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Nice looking game Jon, I find German period based buildings tough to find in the smaller scales. I have bought a couple of resins from TimeCast for 10mm and the church is still a big thing.
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Thanks Norm
Leven miniatures do a few and have various timbered houses and things in their other ranges.
https://www.levenminiatures.co.uk/fachwerk.html (https://www.levenminiatures.co.uk/fachwerk.html)
I've ordered some of their gatehouses and castle components for a walled town. Also some of their bridges which are nice. Casting quality is very good with good detail.
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I've used these figures for Bleucher. I have started a new topic for that since it doesn't use the Lion Rampant engine.
https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=143016.0 (https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=143016.0)
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How do the baccus fit with adler cavalry, I've been thinking of trying them as they are a bit more robust
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Nice looking game Jon, I find German period based buildings tough to find in the smaller scales. I have bought a couple of resins from TimeCast for 10mm and the church is still a big thing.
Total Battle Miniatures do a good range in 6mm
https://www.totalbattleminiatures.com/6mm-big-battalion
A bit more limited (Waterloo Campaign only for this period) in 10mm
https://www.totalbattleminiatures.com/10mm-bb-the-hundred-days
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How do the baccus fit with adler cavalry, I've been thinking of trying them as they are a bit more robust
Pretty well. You wouldn’t want Adler and Baccus cavalry on the same base but they go well with the infantry and in different cavalry units look fine in the battlefield
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Cool, I'm planning Adler infantry and Baccus Cavalry only because the sword arms on the fantastic Adlers aren't holding up to my rough handling
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The swords are tricky though to not bend them all the time.
In such situations I place super glue on an exacto knife and give each side of the sword a very slight, but smooth coating.
You would be amazed how well that stiffens them up.
Great thread, BTW. :-*
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In such situations I place super glue on an exacto knife and give each side of the sword a very slight, but smooth coating.
You would be amazed how well that stiffens them up.
Great thread, BTW. :-*
I'm definitely trying that, I double coat matt varnish which helps a bit, I reckon doing both will be even better
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wonderful thread