Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: Charlemagne on February 01, 2018, 08:33:33 PM
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Hello everyone!
I have just recently started thinning my paints and using a wet palette, and I am happy enough with the results to start posting some of my pieces. I am in the early stage of a burgeoning 15th century Burgundian army, and I have finished my color testing and produced a small command contingent, with the tabarded gentleman in the center sporting the heraldry of Sallenove of the Alsatian 10th Burgundian Ordinance (they have yet to be based, which I'll likely get around to once I have a larger number finished). Up next will be a few more armored halberds from the Perry War of the Roses line, and then hopefully I'll get around to finishing up my Burgundian ordinance company (Perry Plastic "Mercenaries", all 40 of which are currently base-coated and sporting varying degrees of other progress).
(https://i.imgur.com/gPwuBPK.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/jeJwpGx.jpg)
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Very nice start to your Burgundian army. Can't wait to see it taking shape.
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Nice start - looking forward to follow your build - please keep posting!
simon
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Fantastic! That tabarded one is among my favourites of this Perry range...
<--- see?
Looking forward to seeing more.
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Great start, super looking job on those little beauties, looking forward to seeing more. :)
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That’s a great start, well done.
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Well done - they look great :-*
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Great start indeed. :)
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Thank you everyone for your comments! I should have another one or two members of this command contingent done and ready to post by tomorrow or Sunday. As I am still somewhat new to miniature painting, I would just like to put it out there that I'd be more than happy to get any feedback or constructive criticism, as I am always looking to improve in every little way that I can.
Aha indeed!
If I'm being honest I'm not quite sure how not to make the picture end up being so large in the post, so if someone knows how to make it smaller I'd be much obliged to hear how (*see edit*)! As for the wet palette, I only started recently but I'd already swear by it. It's incredibly easy to set up, and I'd say quite necessary at least in my case, as I am using predominantly rather low-pigmented craft acrylic paints rather than paints intended for miniatures. Regardless of your paints I would imagine you would see some improvement in your ability to control how much you are thinning your paints and also find that it is easier to maintain the same level of water over time, so you can apply nice, even coats. As a side benefit I have noticed that my paints last an awful lot longer when they are left on a wet palette, so if you make your own color mixes they will survive far longer.
If you're interested here is my wet palette, don't mind that the paint looks a touch off, it's been sitting in the palette overnight so it has visibly separated a bit but it is easily returned to perfect usable condition with a quick swirl of a brush.
(https://i.imgur.com/uv6AuA3.jpg)
(This palette is simply a folded and trimmed-to-size paper towel which I've wetted to the point of being fully saturated, with a piece of parchment paper over top of it. Apparently it's important to use parchment paper rather than wax paper as parchment paper is porous enough to allow some water through)
**Edit, going back I realize you can adjust the pixel count when posting a picture link, so I suppose the question now is whether it would be better for me to make my pictures smaller or not?
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Really nice work indeed. I think the size of the pictures is fine, as it well displays the detail in your work. Bravo. Looking forward to seeing the whole group.
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I've recently dabbled with using a wet pallet, especially when painting skin and I found it to be a big help. Great start to your Burgundian army too.
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Good looking so far! It will be a fine army.
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Excellent work!
I just finished 36 Front Rank Burgundians myself.
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Am I missing something, I can't see a photo?
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The photo of the finished three is in the first posting.
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Am I missing something, I can't see a photo?
As Metternich kindly suggested the only photos thus far (apart from my wet palette) are the front/back pictures of my first 3 miniatures in the initial posting. I have been rather busy with readings of late so I haven't made as much progress as I would have liked, but I should have at least something to show tonight!
Also, as a brief query (to no-one in particular), I am working on a test figure for how I will be painting brigandines and have found that I am not sure exactly how I want to treat it. I've tried a burgundy color base (equivalent of army painter scab red I believe) with a rather heavy application of black ink over which I will go back and do a first highlight with the scab red equivalent with some highlighting in a brighter red (equivalent of pure red). If someone has another good way/a better way to paint brigandines I would very much like to hear it.
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Also, as a brief query (to no-one in particular), I am working on a test figure for how I will be painting brigandines and have found that I am not sure exactly how I want to treat it. I've tried a burgundy color base (equivalent of army painter scab red I believe) with a rather heavy application of black ink over which I will go back and do a first highlight with the scab red equivalent with some highlighting in a brighter red (equivalent of pure red). If someone has another good way/a better way to paint brigandines I would very much like to hear it.
I paint the brigandines in a simllar war - bright base coat followed by a dark wash. I don't re-highlight.
I used to use black ink, but have lately converted to Army Painter Dark Tone WASH (note - I'm NOT talking about their dip, but their droper bottles of washes, which share the same names as the dips but are something different). Just one or two coats of that does the trick. I make sure the original colour is also very bright though, so the end result isn't too dark. I either do them blue or red.
Also, I sin in that I don't bother painting the rivets! Perhaps one day I will go back and paint every last brigandine rivet in my army... but perhaps not.
Here's some pics of my models you can see my brigandines on.... (I'll link to them not post the actual pics so your thread isn't cluttered up with other peoples' models!)
https://i.imgur.com/umwLwAR.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/qJjgosl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/jikcJVB.jpg
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Oh thank you very much! Very nice indeed! For painting large groups especially that is a far more streamlined system so I'll have to at least consider it depending on how much time it takes me to finish up this gentleman aha.
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There would be a difference between the more expensive brigandines worn by Burgundian nobles and gendarmes vice those worn by ordinary troops. The wealthier individuals wore brigandines faced with rich fabrics, such as richly dyed velvet, and the rivets were often gilded/gilt, lateen or silvered. Ordinary troops just used the underlying canvas or leather, or at most had it faced in a cheaper cloth.
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Interesting, my Front Rank figures do not have a many in brigandines, so I just painted the rivets.
You may want to try a dry brush of silver over the brigandine, then washes of red or blue.
Just a thought.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/849x637q90/924/qgDo8i.jpg)
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Charlemagne,
Off-line you asked some questions regarding appearance of Burgundians (e.g. whether any would have carried bills). I found some interesting PINTEREST links that could give you some ideas :
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1f/96/4b/1f964b3d3d198ac4a5ee001a0b5ddda7.jpg (Guards of Charles the Bold and Antoine Bastard of Burgundy)
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/48/12/9c/48129c159668bcd80759a218b4c191a3.png
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ec/68/7d/ec687d8db33d52b60dcf183c100a40cd.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/70/27/8c/70278cf487867a693fa15dfac3bf928a.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/35/7e/f3/357ef3c816d8c8da741657749c74de0e.png
https://i.pinimg.com/564x/4d/e9/4b/4de94b3eeb90bf15200e14f74d2768f3.jpg (Coutiller of an ordnance company)
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a9/4b/42/a94b425c351e40a06b5b6235d5f26be7.jpg (Mounted Archer of an ordnance)
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-YZXhuK8Ff2A/UcQM-JlPVsI/AAAAAAAAAI0/UsWWiDy0TJY/s1600/Burgundian+Guardsman.jpg (guardsman of Antoine, bastard of Burgundy)
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9FInHrAV5iM/VQvxyVHiWII/AAAAAAAAAco/KO3AkaG6UJ0/s1600/Bodyguard%2Bof%2BCharles%2C%2BCount%2Bof%2BCharolais%2C%2B1465.jpg (bodyguard of Charles, Count of Charolais, 1465)
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5b/b5/31/5bb531c2a4498ea563eb921fca3f81bc.jpg
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/659355201665589507
http://grafik.rp.pl/g4a/784362,387134,9.jpg (Burgundian artillery and crossbowman, assailed by Swiss)
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1f/42/07/1f420781599d1eb494db0b24713889de.png (Ducal archer of the guard and banner)
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/17/62/6f/17626f31601181e7379122222969460d.png (Burgundian knight and horse)
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7f/6b/00/7f6b009fd5d90c7ebcd927fa3d81a00a.png (various Burgundian cavalry)
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/523121312951534146
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This is looking like a great start. Curious to see more!
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Metternich - Thanks for posting these!
Some of the images have small red or white crosses on their shoulder or leg. I wonder if this is correct, or artist license? I actually did paint a few on my figures, but still question it. What are your thoughts?
Cheers,
Thomas
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Thank you so much for this reference material! I'll definitely be making use of these. I guess long story short, they did use voulge and bill equivalents although with far less frequency than English armies.
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Nice burgundians - keep posting your progress!
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From my readings and pictures I've seen, some Burgundians used bill/voulge/pollaxe (glaive ? or is that more of a French weapon at this time ?). Dismounted bodyguards seemed to use bills and voulges (probably matching weapons in the same unit - so two guardsmen from same unit would have same kind of weapon); dismounted coustillers would use either, ox-tongues, two-handed swords, or spears; and dismounted gendarmes (in common with most western European heavy cavalry of the late 15th century) probably used pollaxes. Italian infantry in Burgundian service could use any of the vast array of 15th century polearms. That said, I'm sure there were exceptions to these "rules !"
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I doubt there were any 'rules' at all. I think heavy infantry of any nationality would simply all have been armed with a variety of polearms - bills, glaives, halberds, poleaxes, voulges, fauchards, etc etc...
Though it's true that some nationalities would have favoured one particular type - most notable the Swiss with their halberds and voulges. The English APPARENTLY favoured the bill (but then again, perhaps the term 'bill' just meant 'polearm' in England?). I've heard it said that the French favoured glaives, but have no idea if there is any solid evidence of this (and again it could be that glaive = polearm). I think Burgundian troops especially, being drawn from a variety of European locations, could happily be seen with an array of all sorts of polearm.
Though it's worth making a distinction between poleaxes (which covers two-handed warhammers, 'bec de corbin', 'lucerne hammers' etc) and other 'lesser' polearms... The former are better suited for armoured combat and are more sophisticated (ie expensive) constructions, so would be more likely to be wielded by wealthy individuals (armoured men-at-arms), whereas the latter are simpler (cheaper) constructions, with a longer reach better for keeping the enemy at a distance (so would be more popular with unarmoured men).
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Charlemagne, nice work! That you mention particular heraldry implies that you have access to some potentially useful sources on the Burgundian army. Are there any books or websites that you would recommend?
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Charlie, in the earlier Burgundian campaigns it would be quite correct to surmise that Burgundian infantry (originally feudal in origin) would by-and-large be equipped with whatever polearms they could obtain (and many of our names for the various configurations of polearm are probably Renaissance or even Victorian era inventions). However, in his military ordinances to modernize and professionalize Burgundian military forces through the establishment of Compagnies d’Ordonnance (1471, 1472, 1473), Charles the Bold mandated that each Lance was to include a pikeman (the pikemen of all the lances of a Compagnie being brigaded together into a unit of perhaps 900).
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Readers may find the attached website link of interest. It is for the Companye of St. George, "a living-history association. For twenty-five years we have been bringing to life a small artillery company dating back to the period of Charles the Bold (1467-1477)."
http://www.companie-of-st-george.ch/cms/?q=en/The_Company
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Charlemagne, nice work! That you mention particular heraldry implies that you have access to some potentially useful sources on the Burgundian army. Are there any books or websites that you would recommend?
At present I have access to the Freezywater Publication "The Burgundian Army of Charles The Bold The Ordonnance Companies and their Captains" which is what I have derived the heraldry from. Freezywater Publications in general seem to have a fair amount of source and reference material for the Burgundian and English Armies of this period, and they produce a number of transfers and banners as well if memory serves.
Thank you again Metternich for your insight and for the source material!
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You are very welcome Charlemagne. The Freezywater publications are excellent You and Wu ZhuiQiu might also find interesting the below link to an excerpt from the venerable George Gush book on Renaissance Armies
https://myarmoury.com/feature_armies_burg.html
And this link of printable Burgundian flags: http://www.warflag.com/flags/medieval/burgundy.shtml
And this is a link discussing the specific ordinances under which the Compagnies were organized: http://www.wolfeargent.com/ordonnances.htm
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Here is another source of Burgundian flags, also landsknechts, SWiss and others.
http://www.krigsspil.dk/download/download_2.html (http://www.krigsspil.dk/download/download_2.html)
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Wrgmr 1, that is a wonderful resource. Thanks for posting.