Lead Adventure Forum
Other Stuff => Workbench => Topic started by: Janus71 on March 05, 2018, 02:28:07 PM
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Is there any advantage in using a special primer for miniatures? Or is it the same as any regular car primer that can be found anywhere (and cheaper)?
(I thought somebody would have already discussed this, but i havent found it on the forums)
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I've found automotive primer (Halfords camo brown) to work best for me but there will be other primers out there that work just as well :)
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Is there any advantage in using a special primer for miniatures? Or is it the same as any regular car primer that can be found anywhere (and cheaper)?
(I thought somebody would have already discussed this, but i havent found it on the forums)
I have had very bad experiences with non-modeling primers, such as them repelling water-based paint or reacting with it. I think it really boils down to specific comparisons of brands.
Personally, I very much prefer the Army Painter Uniform Grey, and it isn't really that much more expensive than other supposedly acrylic primers that are available in my neck of the woods. It also very much depends on where you are located (Germany, in my case). UK non-hobby primers may be differently formulated than the stuff we get here and therefore better suited.
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It depends on what you are priming:
- For plastic I think it's all very much of a muchness.
- For lead I'm not even convinced that even hobby primers are that good.
For an explanation of the latter see this blog post (http://blog.vexillia.me.uk/2009/01/painting-tips-3-primers.html) and for those in the UK this is my current recommendation (http://blog.vexillia.me.uk/2016/06/painting-tips-8primer-update.html).
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After trying different branches, I only use GW primers now. They are the ones that give me the best results. The only caveat is that Corax White primer needs three straight minutes (no the 2 recommended) of hard shaking to get the best results and avoid the Grainy Primer of Doom effect, particularly in dry, hot weather conditions -which are common in Madrid, from May to October-. I have made some experiments and found that more than 3 minutes don't add any noticeable benefit, while less than 2 minutes got the worst results. Other GW primers worked well enough with 2 minutes shaking the can.
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I used to use Citadel and Army Painter sprays and they were both good, but I had problems with propellant and/or nozzles with each of them, wasting anything from a quarter to half of the paint inside.
Now I use a brush-on primer (Vallejo) followed by a (very cheap) spray paint (Hycote) which ticks my boxes nicely.
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I am a big fan of the Vallejo primers; I airbrush all of mine and ensure everything gets covered.
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I used to use Citadel and Army Painter sprays and they were both good, but I had problems with propellant and/or nozzles with each of them, wasting anything from a quarter to half of the paint inside.
Now I use a brush-on primer (Vallejo) followed by a (very cheap) spray paint (Hycote) which ticks my boxes nicely.
Exactly the same for me on both counts, the issue with the cans and the new method.
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I have been using brush on Acrylic Gesso.
I think it is actually quicker than spraying and then touching up.
It is also non smelly so you can do it inside - an important factor in winter.
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I used to use Citadel and Army Painter sprays and they were both good, but I had problems with propellant and/or nozzles with each of them, wasting anything from a quarter to half of the paint inside.
Now I use a brush-on primer (Vallejo) followed by a (very cheap) spray paint (Hycote) which ticks my boxes nicely.
I had that same problem with Army Painter, but never with Games Workshop sprays.
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Exactly the same for me on both counts, the issue with the cans and the new method.
What do you gain from combining both? Why not leave it at only the Vallejo primer?
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I am a big fan of the Vallejo primers; I airbrush all of mine and ensure everything gets covered.
Not an option : i dont have an airbrush and dont plan on getting one anytime soon. But thanks for the input anyway :)
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I have been using brush on Acrylic Gesso.
I think it is actually quicker than spraying and then touching up.
It is also non smelly so you can do it inside - an important factor in winter.
Yup me to, although I have several Vallejo acrylic primers as well, its diluted black acrylic gesso I end up using the most.
Its what I have found I am most comfortable and happy with so far anyway.
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What do you gain from combining both? Why not leave it at only the Vallejo primer?
Right, for me, I tried just using the Vallejo primer, but it wasn't particularly adhesive (maybe because I brush it on) and started to rub off slightly during painting. Plus, it's a bit shiny and slippery (again, perhaps because I brush it on), and I prefer a completely matt finish to my primer.
So, by brushing on the Vallejo primer I do get a nice coverage that reaches into all the nooks and crannies. Then by using the spray afterwards it adds another layer to reinforce it, and gives a more matt finish for me to paint on.
I know it sounds a bit of a hassle, but I don't paint in huge numbers and it's no time at all for me to scrub the first primer on with a scruffy brush, making sure I'm getting into the hard-to-reach bits. Even combining the cost of the Vallejo primer (pretty cheap for a big bottle) and the spray (Hycote is the cheapest I've seen) it's still cheaper than the GW or AP cans and there are no issues with wasting a proportion of the paint because it no longer sprays.
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I tried just using the Vallejo primer, but it wasn't particularly adhesive ... and started to rub off slightly during painting.
This means it's not a good primer! I presume this is for lead? By the way the method of application is very unlikely to affect the adhesion.
... by using the spray afterwards it adds another layer [to the Vallejo primer] to reinforce it ...
Subsequent layers (paint, varnish, or whatever) will add resistance to abrasion but it won't do anything to change the substrate/primer adhesion. This would require the second layer to penetrate the first. Sadly, the weakness of the first layer will always remain.
Your experience highlights why special metals primers for non-ferrous metals exist.
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Depends, metal or plastic?
If metal, then a natural property of lead is that it is a really slippery surface - hence adhesion problems
I have moved over to Hammerite 'special metals primer'. it is brown and brushes can be washed in water, but it is very clearly tougher than my Vallejo primer. You can rub it when dry and it does not break up.
EDIT ... Vexillia was posting while I was typing and seeing his text reminds me that I think he was the person who put me onto the Hammerite ... glad to have taken his advice.
By the way, I Hammerite and then rub in the Vellojo in the creases with a brush to give me black shadow.
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EDIT ... Vexillia was posting while I was typing and seeing his text reminds me that I think he was the person who put me onto the Hammerite ... glad to have taken his advice.
Glad to have helped. ;)
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I have been using brush on Acrylic Gesso.
I also use brush on acrylic gesso. Both black and white depending on what I want to accomplish.
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Is there any advantage in using a special primer for miniatures? Or is it the same as any regular car primer that can be found anywhere (and cheaper)?
(I thought somebody would have already discussed this, but i havent found it on the forums)
Yes you can use several kinds of primer. I use a generic primer brand. To ensure a good grip for the brush paint you lay on later, wash and dry the miniature thoroughly and don't spray on the primer too thickly.
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I have used GW, AP and Vallejo dedicated miniature spray can primers, and I've only had one mishap ever, with a can of GW white (grainy, course surface).
I must say that I really like the Vallejo spray cans, although I only use their white. And this might just be me being lucky, but it works really well and I have the impression it goes on just that little bit smoother and thinner than the others. I only use it for those minis I really want to do my best possible work on though, as it's screamingly expensive... ::)
For all other undercoats, I use the cheapest possible cans of matt white and black from Action, and they have served me very well over the years.
In fact, I'm batch painting a very large group (43) of completely black minis at the moment, and I'm treating the undercoat as the basecoat as well, highlighting right on top if it. And this is the cheap Action stuff.
Of course the trick is to make sure all mould release agents have gone from the mini before putting on the undercoat/primer, as that will affect the adhesiveness of the coat tremendously.
And finally, gloss coating over the end result, with a matt varnish on top will seal everything in and also prevent rubbing and chipping.
I used to not do this last step, also because most of my minis don't get very many outings to begin with, but several have suffered because of it, no matter how well prepared the bare mini was. I must really get around to doing this on a lot of my older work; there are a bunch of Golden Daemon finalists in my cabinet that never got a protective coat...
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I have only ever had issues with a can of Army Painter white; it’s completely grained up my Eschers from the new Necromunda :(
Apart from that most recent one, I’ve almost exclusively used £1 car primer from UK Pound Shops. It comes in grey and black (make sure you get Matt not Gloss!) and I have never had a single issue with it. Primes metal and plastic fine, isn’t coarse, and stays stuck to the mini. No one believes me though, I guess people are nervous about using such a product for the first time!!
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I much prefer brush-on primer to spray, but I don;t use a special primer. I find artist's acrylics, straight from the tube, are an excellent primer for plastic and metal (and even soft plastic).
Also, you can use a colour which fits in with the figures you are doing, although I tend to use a sandy brown for most figures.
Black can give a harsh look and is lot of work to cover. White shows up horribly if you miss a bit. Brown just looks like a bit of flesh or leather.
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Cheap brand of red brown spray primer works for me.
I barely go near any hobby paints anymore - way too freaking expensive and despite all the claims, I don't see a difference. All in the manner you handle the paint. I only use acrylic paint, either craft or artists (cheap student versions). Craft paints can be as much as twenty times cheaper than hobby paint measured per ounce. When I tumbled to that, I never looked back. Of course, I paint my miniatures to be gaming pieces, not museum pieces or to win contests. And not being a stock holder in the hobby paint companies, I could care less if people buy them or not. I'm more concerned on getting the miniatures I want (thankfully very little left I want!)
I have found red brown tends to give better coverage than white, gray, or black - black being the most likely to 'crumble' a bit.
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I'll throw in another chip for automotive or "bare metal" primers(most of my models are metal). Hobby sprays might have a specific color or finish, but in terms of durability they're the same. I also like to just use my regular old vallejo game color paint as a brush on primer. It doesn't give me the beautiful paper-like finish the auto-primer does but it is a tough resin that sticks really well to metal models.
A question to all the acrylic gesso users: Do you have any problems with it filling in details, or when thinned problems with adhesion? Also what brands do you use? I have an artistic background so I've been familiar with gessos for a long time, but never considered it as a suitable miniature primer. Acrylic gesso is basically just acrylic paint with chalk in it to give you a slightly textured surface, while gesso for oils is another thing entirely.
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Cheap brand of red brown spray primer works for me.
I barely go near any hobby paints anymore - way too freaking expensive and despite all the claims, I don't see a difference. All in the manner you handle the paint. I only use acrylic paint, either craft or artists (cheap student versions). Craft paints can be as much as twenty times cheaper than hobby paint measured per ounce. When I tumbled to that, I never looked back. Of course, I paint my miniatures to be gaming pieces, not museum pieces or to win contests.
That is interesting. I have personally yet to come by an off the rack artist acrylic (W&N, Liquitex...) which can hold its candle to the hobby acrylics available. Generally, the pigmentation is less dense, sometimes the medium is to gloopy.
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That is interesting. I have personally yet to come by an off the rack artist acrylic (W&N, Liquitex...) which can hold its candle to the hobby acrylics available. Generally, the pigmentation is less dense, sometimes the medium is to gloopy.
I paint using a mixture of artist acrylics and vallejo paints. I think artist acrylics offer many advantages, and there are plenty of high level painters who use them for at least some part of their process. Matt DiPietro for example uses the Golden heavy body acylics exclusively, and Ben Komets uses heavy body white for his "loaded brush" technique. I could talk on this subject at length but in the interest of not going too off topic in this thread I'll just say:
TL;DR: Don't be shy at the art store, use artist acrylics and mediums, there is a whole lot of useful stuff there for the miniature painter!
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Thank you everybody for your input.
Reading your replies I have realised I hadn't taken the weather into account. Where I live it's been raining for the last 6 months (it's even raining again now ...). So i guess the gesso would be the better solution in my case.
I shall visit the local store and see if they have any. Would any brand work? Is there anything to avoid?
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@Casual Tea
The Acrylic Gesso that I have appears to be black acrylic paint mixed with concentrated PVA adhesive (white glue) so that it is thicker and stickier than hobby paints. I paint it on straight from the tube or with a very small amount of water to slightly reduce the viscosity. As it dries, it shrinks to give a good coating, almost like a thin skin. It is very flexible which means you can paint it onto polyethylene figures such as very old Airfix 1/32nd figures. If you dilute it, it feels and covers just like black acrylic hobby paint.
@James71
Make sure that you get acrylic gesso and not traditional gesso (for oil paints). Other than that, I don't think the brand maters.
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I paint using a mixture of artist acrylics and vallejo paints. I think artist acrylics offer many advantages, and there are plenty of high level painters who use them for at least some part of their process. Matt DiPietro for example uses the Golden heavy body acylics exclusively, and Ben Komets uses heavy body white for his "loaded brush" technique. I could talk on this subject at length but in the interest of not going too off topic in this thread I'll just say:
TL;DR: Don't be shy at the art store, use artist acrylics and mediums, there is a whole lot of useful stuff there for the miniature painter!
Thanks. This is an interesting topic. I shall open a new thread because I feel I have a few things to learn here.