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Other Stuff => General Wargames and Hobby Discussion => Topic started by: Kommando_J on March 09, 2018, 04:45:37 AM
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Saw the new Hail Caesar supplement 'Shield Wall' being advertised a few weeks ago it was shown to come with a miniature of a viking carrying off an unfortunate maiden (pretty standard trope).
A week later without a peep the free miniature has been changed to Harald Steptoesson, while no explanation for why the dropped a newly sculpted mini for a much older one...you can hazard a guess.
Found the whole thing slightly amusing, peoples thoughts?
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Maybe it wasn't PC what inspired Warlord to change the miniature, but that they thought good old Harald would be more appealing to potential players, as buying incentive, than a lecherous Viking kidnapping a Carolingian/Anglo-Saxon maiden.
Of course, given the power of the PC Inquisition in social media, you are probably right and it is Warlord trying to avoid negative publicity.
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Or it could be that the finished minis had some casting/mold flaws.
Personally, I would prefer the older mini, were I to buy the book, but more out of finding it more useful in an army/warband.
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Maybe it wasn't PC what inspired Warlord to change the miniature, but that they thought good old Harald would be more appealing to potential players, as buying incentive, than a lecherous Viking kidnapping a Carolingian/Anglo-Saxon maiden.
Of course, given the power of the PC Inquisition in social media, you are probably right and it is Warlord trying to avoid negative publicity.
The harald minis is available to buy separately although is temporarily out of stock. I'd bet its the second as it just seems odd to me to make a mini you don't use.
Also does anybody actually care about the new blood red skies game that is coming out? They've been plugging it since last year and any hype I might of felt has long since evaporated.
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Maybe it wasn’t political correctness at all? Maybe someone reflected on whether the image of implied rape and pillage was a good marketing notion, when you are looking at growing your market and the growth potential is likely to number children, some of them female. Maybe they decided that the creepy, mysoginist rape ‘n’ torture imagery was best left to the Brother Vinnis of this world who seem quite happy to corner that particular market.
Just maybe the monumental worldwide conspiracy of librul, meeja elites to impose a puritanical overlay on the world of toy soldiers isn’t actually as monumental as you might think.
Happy International Women’s Day for yesterday!
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''Maybe it wasn’t political correctness at all? Maybe someone reflected on whether the image of implied rape and pillage was a good marketing notion,''
If a company is worried about those types of implications they shouldn't be making vikings as the association between pillage, rape and vikings is a common one.
''when you are looking at growing your market and the growth potential is likely to number children, some of them female.''
I can't imagine very many women and children are playing hail caesar lol Not the right aesthetics.
The'll have to redo the looting landschnekts pack if they are committed.
''Just maybe the monumental worldwide conspiracy of librul, meeja elites to impose a puritanical overlay on the world of toy soldiers isn’t actually as monumental as you might think.''
Nice straw man, completely unnecessary.
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I would have liked a giveaway with a maiden kicking a viking in the groin for trying to rape her. Innovative and a nice change on a theme.
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Maybe it wasn’t political correctness at all? Maybe someone reflected on whether the image of implied rape and pillage was a good marketing notion, when you are looking at growing your market and the growth potential is likely to number children, some of them female. Maybe they decided that the creepy, mysoginist rape ‘n’ torture imagery was best left to the Brother Vinnis of this world who seem quite happy to corner that particular market.
Just maybe the monumental worldwide conspiracy of librul, meeja elites to impose a puritanical overlay on the world of toy soldiers isn’t actually as monumental as you might think.
Happy International Women’s Day for yesterday!
I'd be a lot happier if people didn't keep using the term political correctness as an insult.
I can certainly remember when there was less pressure to be 'politically correct' (or as I prefer to call it, 'Polite & Considerate'), and it was horrendous for very many people who were racially abused, discriminated against for their genitalia or their sexual preferences, their disability or their political views.
Happy International Women's Day.
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I'd be happier if people didn't keep trying to turn LAF into a battleground in the culture war, personally. There's already every single entire inch of the rest of the internet out there for that.
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''I can certainly remember when there was less pressure to be 'politically correct' (or as I prefer to call it, 'Polite & Considerate'), and it was horrendous for very many people who were racially abused, discriminated against for their genitalia or their sexual preferences, their disability or their political views. ''
Being polite and considerate is good, no arguments there, but these days ''PC'' can really depend on whomever is pushing it for instance the new videogame Kingdom Come is being bashed as not politically correct for its lack of inclusion of PoC...in a game set in 15th century rural Bohemia...
''I'd be happier if people didn't keep trying to turn LAF into a battleground in the culture war, personally.''
Wsn't my intention at all, original post was made to just highlight an oddity I had noticed, not essentially be implied that I believed in ''Just maybe the monumental worldwide conspiracy of librul, meeja elites to impose a puritanical overlay on the world of toy soldiers isn’t actually as monumental as you might think.''...which is a load of nonsense lol
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Well if you thought everyone was going to simply nod and say "my gosh, you're right" then you've clearly never been to the internet before. :)
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Ah, the great PC conspiracy. :D Sure, there's silly things around, but I'm not fond of the term in a negative light. People who complain about silly things will do so in any context. These people just use it as a thin veil to live their weird frustrations outwardly.
Maybe the sculpt just wasn't up to snuff, maybe the mould broke, maybe indeed Warlord thought that the thing would sell less well, maybe transferring the Footsore(?) minis to Warlord's production infrastructure was faster than thought and they managed to get the new character production ready faster than anticipated and thought it would fit better, maybe they try to include figures 'players can actually use in their warbands' (that thing GW do - include toys which will work in your toy army), ...
I would like to think that a tiger are the mould of the other figure. Because it's all just us guessing at this point. If you want you can contact Warlord and ask. It's 2018, if they have info on this they wanna share they will, if not they won't. But rather than throwing speculation around we can just email the companies in question. :)
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Eh, was just looking for a little harmless back and forth discussion...silly me lol.
Having everyone agree with you sounds good in theory, in practice I find it very boring.
''But rather than throwing speculation around we can just email the companies in question.''
Lol, you've never emailed them then, these days it takes them agrees to reply to anything, they used to be quite prompt, I asked them a question on their Facebook a couple of weeks ago and still haven't gotten a reply.
I had no idea the new dark ages stuff used to be by footsore, source?
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I'd be happier if people didn't keep trying to turn LAF into a battleground in the culture war, personally. There's already every single entire inch of the rest of the internet out there for that.
Totally agree with that.
As for the minis; let's reflect a bit on the fact that we're using small pieces of pewter and plastic to represent all the cruelties and atrocities of war. We're playing at murdering as many of the 'enemy' as possible. Wars are never 'clean' and what on earth would be politically correct about them?
Having studied archeology back in the day, one of the things I was infused with, is that facts are immutable (and archeology is about fact finding). What others (historians, authors, politicians etc) do with those facts is another thing entirely, and spinning facts is all too prevalent in today's society (But certainly not limited to today; history has always been written by the victor after all).
But if we, as wargamers, are truly about accurately recreating the battlefields of yore (and today) as factually as possible, we should not shirk away from those aspects of war that are distastful or horrible to our 21st century sensibilities.
We may not agree with them, from our modern point of view, but omitting or even denying them is wrong. Instead, they can be used as a lesson to be learnt. Because if we start cherrypicking only those aspects of historical wars that are acceptable to us now, we're not playing historical battles, we're playing fantasy battles.
In the end, wars are not agreeable to any of us (especially those of us who've been through them), and the further back in history we go, the more disagreeable they become. Because wars were an even more gory, brutal and ruthless affair in past centuries/millennia.
We should not project our current viewpoints on existing facts, as appalling as they are to us. They are a part of our history and shaped our society, many things even ringing through to today, even though we might not even notice it.
So; by all means question the usability of the originally offered miniature in wargames (perhaps it would be more at place in skirmish games as an objective (grabber)?), but please leave any political correctness out of it, because amongst facts (and LAF), there is just no room for such a discussion...
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The new figures are from the Saxon Miniatures Line I believe.
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I have to say i'm in line with daeothar, who pretty much described my own position more eloquently than I could ever.
I'd also say it's a tricky line trying to please everybody, say for example you do start cutting out miniatures like the example I gave, things might not start their as warlord have plenty of other ''iffy'' miniatures (looking at you bolt action japanese!) or the looting landschnekts which has a lady being carried off,.
You risk upsetting your previous consumer base in order to please people who might not have any intention of buying in the first place(iv'e seen that happen in the videogames arena a few times).
...That all being said..I do hate useless minis like that, I for one am a bit tired of all the 'vignette' style minis that warlord includes with it's rulebooks, i'd prefer something like an alternate officer/nco.
Although more so I wish that warlord would just concentrate on the properties it has.
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I'd be happier if people didn't keep trying to turn LAF into a battleground in the culture war, personally. There's already every single entire inch of the rest of the internet out there for that.
this in bloody spades.
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All I know is that the name of the mini is a real throwback to the good old days of GW. Harold Steptoesson, classic!
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Personally as much as I dislike it, the culture war is unavoidable online(and especially anything dealing with history), as long as we remain respectful I think some productive discussion is have-able.
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Personally as much as I dislike it, the culture war is unavoidable online(and especially anything dealing with history), as long as we remain respectful I think some productive discussion is have-able.
Putting a stop to this, this is very clearly veering off to politics territory. No politics of any kind on LAF, if you please.
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I would have liked a giveaway with a maiden kicking a viking in the groin for trying to rape her. Innovative and a nice change on a theme.
Too mainstream! A better idea for a little diorama: a Viking shieldmaiden looking pissed off because a big, hairy Viking is oogling a little, cute Irish monk. That would have been more innovative.
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''Putting a stop to this, this is very clearly veering off to politics territory. No politics of any kind on LAF, if you please.''
I didn't men we should start making threads, but when it does (inevitably) come up, it is possible to discuss whatever issue is at hand like adults.
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The easiest way to avoid a ‘political’ discussion is to have people stop bandying around loaded phrases like politically correct.
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You could just ask them. ;)
I strongly suspect the happy coincidence of it being nearly half the metal may have occurred to someone along the way.Even if its after you've talked to them.
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The easiest way to avoid a ‘political’ discussion is to have people stop bandying around loaded phrases like politically correct.
Why not? It shortens nicely, and it is more polite than other potential descriptions of that particular branch of self-impossed censorship.
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You lads can't tale a hint?
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You lads can't tale a hint?
Apparently not. :?
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I feel Ragnar as a freebee would make sense, since it will be probably more useful ( and less controversial ) to most potential buyers than the first.
Having said that, I hope the first fig will be available on general sale, sice it will be quite suitable for a special "rescue the maiden" scenario...
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I'd be happier if people didn't keep trying to turn LAF into a battleground in the culture war, personally. There's already every single entire inch of the rest of the internet out there for that.
I completely agree.
I come to the Forum for the miniatures.
I leave my opinions about everything else at the door.
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As an aside, is there any evidence that vikings were more guilty of rape than any other faction/nation? I would imagine it's impossible to prove they actually did more or less, there's no archeological evidence as far as I know, it's purely down to historical accounts, which are always open to intepretation/propaganda, etc. Rape and pillage happens in all warfare, I don't understand why the vikings have that reputation any more than any other warriors.
Another aside related to a previous comment, is warfare from further back really more brutal than modern conflict? A ship full of vikings could inflict a bit of damage on a raid, but I would say nowhere near as much as that inflicted in modern warfare. Civilians are far more likely to be caught up in modern conflict, accidentally or otherwise. The ongoing suffering of Syrian civilians is a case in point, we can look at Iraq, the Balkans, Vietnam, Hiroshima, all the millions that died in WW2. We might consider ourselves more advanced, but are we really?
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As an aside, is there any evidence that vikings were more guilty of rape than any other faction/nation? I would imagine it's impossible to prove they actually did more or less, there's no archeological evidence as far as I know, it's purely down to historical accounts, which are always open to intepretation/propaganda, etc. Rape and pillage happens in all warfare, I don't understand why the vikings have that reputation any more than any other warriors.
Another aside related to a previous comment, is warfare from further back really more brutal than modern conflict? A ship full of vikings could inflict a bit of damage on a raid, but I would say nowhere near as much as that inflicted in modern warfare. Civilians are far more likely to be caught up in modern conflict, accidentally or otherwise. The ongoing suffering of Syrian civilians is a case in point, we can look at Iraq, the Balkans, Vietnam, Hiroshima, all the millions that died in WW2. We might consider ourselves more advanced, but are we really?
Well, there are first hand accounts, like that of arab merchant Ibn Fadlan who met vikings at the upper Volga around the year 921, which does not paint a very pretty picture of these vikings *from our modern point of view*. He seemed more hung up about their hygiene and lewdness than their brutality and abuse of slaves, which is sort of telling what he was used to back in Bagdad (or wherever he came from).
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I come to the Forum for the miniatures.
I leave my opinions about everything else at the door.
That should be core component of the LAF creed. :)
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As an aside, is there any evidence that vikings were more guilty of rape than any other faction/nation? I would imagine it's impossible to prove they actually did more or less, there's no archeological evidence as far as I know, it's purely down to historical accounts, which are always open to intepretation/propaganda, etc. Rape and pillage happens in all warfare, I don't understand why the vikings have that reputation any more than any other warriors.
I do know that once the Norse/Vikings started settling in the Danelaw areas of England the locals complained that because of better Norse grooming habits (bathing once a week! combing their hair and beards daily! washing their linens! the horror!) they were supposedly seducing all the women away from the local Angles or Saxons or whoever. lol
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Ah, the great PC conspiracy. :D Sure, there's silly things around, but I'm not fond of the term in a negative light. People who complain about silly things will do so in any context. These people just use it as a thin veil to live their weird frustrations outwardly.
Maybe the sculpt just wasn't up to snuff, maybe the mould broke, maybe indeed Warlord thought that the thing would sell less well, maybe transferring the Footsore(?) minis to Warlord's production infrastructure was faster than thought and they managed to get the new character production ready faster than anticipated and thought it would fit better, maybe they try to include figures 'players can actually use in their warbands' (that thing GW do - include toys which will work in your toy army), ...
I would like to think that a tiger are the mould of the other figure. Because it's all just us guessing at this point. If you want you can contact Warlord and ask. It's 2018, if they have info on this they wanna share they will, if not they won't. But rather than throwing speculation around we can just email the companies in question. :)
Righto, it could be for any reason, so a lot of this argy-bargy might be pointless. As Mark said, for all we know it was changed because Harald is half the metal of the other one.
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"Harald Hálfrjárn" - a good Viking name, and maybe a good point to end this discussion on, which, given the lack of hard facts available and the unfortunate tendency of speculation going awry, is unlikely to yield a favourable outcome.