Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Second World War => Topic started by: JamesValentine on June 18, 2018, 04:13:26 PM
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(http://i64.tinypic.com/2118lky.jpg)
Ignoring real world practicality. Does anyone know if the Warlord games plastic Churchill will fit a Rubicon Sherman turret? (Or even Achilles turret)
Will the ring need modifications? (On turret or hull)
Is it too wide or deep for the hull?
Does it work easily and actually look damned cool? lol
Will it give rivet counters hernias?
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Would've been a damn good tank - the armour and cross-country performance of a Churchill with a 17pdr gun.
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Indeed. I know they did all that faffing around with the black prince. But if it's possible to just alter a ring and slap a stop gap turret in place...why not?
Plus conversions are fun :D
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In the real world the turret ring is a limit, and on British tanks the turret ring fits inside the inner hull (the walls of which are where you hang your suspension system.
The Black Prince is wider (not sure about the Challenger and the Avenger).
In Valentineland, however....
The turret ring on the Warlord M4 and the Rubicon M4An tanks is smaller than scale - to see how small compare the deck parts of the Rubicon M36 (undersize to match the M4An ring) to the M10.
No one would be foolish enough to match Sherman and British tanks.
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-kk_hUxQO-go/Vwya3oNrVsI/AAAAAAAABXo/ezPLl2l5Mfkl7L8dme0BKCFHvR3Tls4oACLcB/s1600/shermwell2.png)
The Sherman turret fits the Cromwell hull, the same is not true of the Cromwell turret and the Sherman hull:
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-WqNDvJWf4Yc/Vwya3vO5_lI/AAAAAAAABXs/TDQ5oY0RNxA7H3aqzA6w30QZedJruDP5ACLcB/s1600/shermwell1.png)
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Thinking about it, you might be better off with a "77"mm QF In a modified welded turret.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnance_QF_17-pounder#77_mm_HV (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnance_QF_17-pounder#77_mm_HV)
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The sherman turret on Cromwell looks rather funky
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The sherman turret on Cromwell looks rather funky
Poor man's Comet without the firepower (unless you use a 76mm in the turret - see http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/m4a3e4/m4a3e4.html (http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/m4a3e4/m4a3e4.html)).
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So what's the source for that pic? Was this idea something they tried, or considered? Or is it just a bit of fun? Looks cool, anyway.
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Thinking about it, you might be better off with a "77"mm QF In a modified welded turret.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnance_QF_17-pounder#77_mm_HV (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnance_QF_17-pounder#77_mm_HV)
I would suggest the following:
Churchill welded turret.
Churchill NA75 Mantlet fitted with a shortened 17lb gun
Extend the rear of the turret back along the angle of the rear sides and add a Firefly radio box (and blanket box to taste).
If you have spare turrets, try a composite, cast front of turret with NA75 Mantlet attached to welded rear of turret with extensions.
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I suppose the Challenger A30 would be a close similar tank
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruiser_Mk_VIII_Challenger#/media/File:Tanks_and_Afvs_of_the_British_Army_1939-45_KID906.jpg)
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Poor man's Comet without the firepower (unless you use a 76mm in the turret - see http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/m4a3e4/m4a3e4.html (http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/m4a3e4/m4a3e4.html)).
Now that is funky.
So what's the source for that pic? Was this idea something they tried, or considered? Or is it just a bit of fun? Looks cool, anyway.
Just something I found on Google randomly. So I'm not sure of origins. I'm sure a reverse image search will find it again.
I suppose the Challenger A30 would be a close similar tank
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruiser_Mk_VIII_Challenger#/media/File:Tanks_and_Afvs_of_the_British_Army_1939-45_KID906.jpg)
Just not an option in any plastic kit lol
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By gum you are right, really surprised no one has made a 1/56th challenger A30 :o ;D :D
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By gum you are right, really surprised no one has made a 1/56th challenger A30 :o ;D :D
It is a different (extended) hull. You could build it by cutting a Cromwell hull in half and adding an additional road wheel each side. And then you have to scratch build the turret. Rich H might do it (actually, I vaguely remember one somewhere).
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I present the Shermhill Firefly.
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-EGGGkkWKMKc/Wyfm1YXJBDI/AAAAAAAAD48/vSp4CpMPTqYGjUQNrPsL9uJ_ebbjuPaLACLcBGAs/s1600/shermhill1.png)
It uses the Warlord/Italeri Plastic Churchill with the Warlord Sherman VC turret (from my Hercules project).
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-mZiiJk1mtd4/Wyfm1egPaOI/AAAAAAAAD40/Mcj6QFMeMM4KoIUdoi5d-yfT8qwu0wtIQCLcBGAs/s1600/shermhill2.png)
You can see why you cannot physically add a Sherman turret to the Churchill hull as the turret ring (and basket) cannot fit between hull sides.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Xpy_x4HIsZ8/Wyfm1QlOa9I/AAAAAAAAD44/GiuvLaCFOBoZR6Y9js0eBryLnwRiOkrtwCLcBGAs/s1600/shermhill3.png)
The Warlord turret fits because it does not use a bayonet fitting.
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_zqBrDxJ76A/Wyfm2Pegz4I/AAAAAAAAD5A/8hrcqLpI5nEKX12KthVncNSuokP8LaEsQCLcBGAs/s1600/shermhill4.png)
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Yep, exactly the problem, the black prince was a new wider hull.
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Yep, exactly the problem, the black prince was a new wider hull.
I do not have to hand the turret ring diameter of the Churchill version 2 (Mk VII+) so I do not know how it compares to the Cromwell/Comet.
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Yep, exactly the problem, the black prince was a new wider hull.
I do not have the details to hand, how does the Churchill (VII+) version's turret ring compare to the Cromwell/Comet one?
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I present the Shermhill Firefly.
It's a handsome looking beast, but I'm not sure about the name … maybe a Bulldog?
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I present the Shermhill Firefly.
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-EGGGkkWKMKc/Wyfm1YXJBDI/AAAAAAAAD48/vSp4CpMPTqYGjUQNrPsL9uJ_ebbjuPaLACLcBGAs/s1600/shermhill1.png)
That seems to fit nicely I think!
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I do not have the details to hand, how does the Churchill (VII+) version's turret ring compare to the Cromwell/Comet one?
Churchill 54.25"
Cromwell 60"
Comet 64"
Sherman 69"
Black Prince 72"
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Churchill 54.25"
Cromwell 60"
Comet 64"
Sherman 69"
Black Prince 72"
It is going to be difficult to fit a 77 QF in a Churchill turret.
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It's a handsome looking beast, but I'm not sure about the name … maybe a Bulldog?
It does not fit with the British tank naming schemes of the time, unless you mean a Churchill Bulldog.
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It does not fit with the British tank naming schemes of the time, unless you mean a Churchill Bulldog.
Sounds good!
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Churchill Bulldog works.
It looks good. Seems odd to haev such a small turret ring on a heavy tank but it was only supposed to have a 2pdr!
If you want a big gun in a churchill....
(http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/infantry-mk-iv-churchill-mk-i-3-inch-gun-carrier-011.jpg)
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Anybody make a 1/48 Churchill? Then use the 1/56 Firefly turret. I know real life dimension is all of but for a bit of fancy?
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Anybody make a 1/48 Churchill?
Tamiya will be soon. Otherwise I don't think so
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Cool looking work up of the two tanks.
Perfect for those who like WW3.
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:o I would buy a Black Prince in an instant if Rich H is listening.....?
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lol
I'm not listening!
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/2dcW1Dlu2sZnW/giphy.gif)
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lol
I'm not listening!
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/2dcW1Dlu2sZnW/giphy.gif)
Don't worry. I'm used to worse.
I've been on the bolt action uk Facebook group...
Gave me PTSD
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lol you are not wrong. Black prince would be an interesting build, but those wheels... :o
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no one has made a 1/56th challenger A30
There is a JTFM one in the pipe, but I wouldn't like to try & put a date on its release (here's a pic of the tracks & running gear attached to his Cromwell).
A Black Prince would be very cool though...
If we're indulging in a little whatifery, how about the Charioteer (I know it didn't appear til 1950, but exigencies of war & all that..) It's a slight puzzle that they could fit a new turret mounting a 20pdr/84mm onto a pretty much standard Cromwell hull (the turret ring was widened slightly) but not have figured out how to do the same with the 17pdr a few years earlier (the 20pdr is a lot bigger in all dimensions & although the turret was a bit of a bodge - tall & fairly lightly armoured - it's not too different in concept to that of the Challenger). A charioteer would also be a far easier kitbash & scratchbuild, as you'd only have to come up with the turret/gun - a fairly simple shape.
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I'll probably get around to Cromwells and craziness eventually.
Too much to do!
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I suspect the reason it fits is due to the Bishop/KV-2 style turret and only having two crew (I think at least one of the Cromwell based 17 pounder tank destroyers had a four crew turret due to ammunition concerns).
The Churchill turret ring is about six inches narrower than a base Cromwell (the Charioteer probably went up to Comet sized).
As a "what if", apparently one was fitted with an L7 for testing purposes.