Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Conflicts that came in from the Cold => Topic started by: AlexM on June 28, 2018, 03:37:53 PM
-
We are so excited to announce our first vehicle pre-order, the Canadian LAV-III. The LAV-III and its variants have been in use by the Canadian Armed Forces since the mid-90s and saw extremely faithful service both at home, and abroad. Most recently, LAV-IIIs were deployed with the Canadian contribution to ISAF in Afghanistan. This model represents that vehicle to complement our existing miniature range, scaled to 1/50.
How this will work:
We need your help to make this happen! 3D printing and production is an expensive process, but working with Trenchworx will ensure we have the best quality product to offer our customers. This project won’t become a reality until we can get 50 units pre-ordered. We are intending to offer a multi-part resin and metal kit. Of course, of we do not hit our target, we will refund your payment in full.
Vehicles can be pre-ordered individually for $70 CAD each (roughly $52USD / £39 / €45), or if you order 3 or more, the price is reduced to $65 CAD with the promo code PREORDER
Place your pre-order now - https://fullbattlerattleminiatures.com/products/isaf-canadian-lav-iii (https://fullbattlerattleminiatures.com/products/isaf-canadian-lav-iii)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/fullbattlerattleminiatures/Side%20Promo%20Image_zpsoov5hrii.jpg)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/fullbattlerattleminiatures/Ortho%20Promo%20Image_zpsx8zuoxlf.jpg)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/fullbattlerattleminiatures/Front%20Promo%20Image_zpsrg9rtwdl.jpg)\
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/fullbattlerattleminiatures/Rear%20Promo%20Image_zpsiig8mph5.jpg)
If you have any questions or concerns, make sure to contact us directly!
Thank you for all your support!
*any miniatures included in orders will be shipped at the same time a
-
I love the renders, but at 45 euros it is extremely expensive. I am afraid that I will have to pass on this one. :'(
PS: there is no way to cooperate with empress to rework their own Stryker?
-
At $70 it’s expensive.
:o
-
At £39 it is too expensive for a non core interest, sorry.
-
What do you feel would be an appropriate price point?
-
now these are just my own opinions based on my own gaming and gaming budget. I also do not run a company or know the cost involved.
For an IFV (opposed to an MBT) I would say between 20-25£, better if at the lower end. Butlers offers the 1:56 LAV 25 at 16.50£ and the one in 1:40 at 25£. Both are 3D printed. I know Trenchworx quality is high, but I also feel their prices a bit too high.
Gaming wise I have moved away from buying vehicles platoons in 28mm for cold war and later forces. Already 15mm at time feels cramped. Right now I tend to buy single vehicles with one or two squads of dismounts. It fits the kind of games I am playing or preparing now. Yes I would like to have the space to manoeuvre a couple of Canadian Mech platoons maybe with some Leos in support... all in 28mm, but this is not going to happen! :'( (also painting two platoons worth of modern camo!!!!! o_o ) .
Said that, having one and some Canadian troops will certainly fits my plans, provided that the vehicle is priced around the 20£ mark.
One thing, not directed against you but more a general reflection: there has been the promise (or lure?) was that 3D printing would have reduced cost of vehicles rather than increase it, but it does not seems to happen across the spectrum.
-
You're in a difficult position, Alex. Gamers have been spoiled by relatively low-cost plastic models like those from Rubicon and Warlord (and Warlord are benefiting from a partnership with Italeri), for vehicles that they can sell in much larger quantities. (I was going to say 'mass-produce" but then remembered we are talking wargame models here lol )
Your model is going to appeal to a much smaller number of people, and will be produced in more expensive resin and metal. Unfortunately the average shopper will only see the price point and not your production costs and margins!
As for a price point, consider that the OOP Company B Stryker is listed at USD$55 (but perhaps that price is one of the reasons it remains OOP). Empress has a Stryker for £25. (on the basis that the Stryker is likely the closest thing to a LAV-III that's readily available for gamers) Empress also has a LAV-25 for £25 - the LAV-25 is more or less the same vehicle as the CAF Coyote Recce or the Australian ASLAV.
-
Reviewing Empress' £25 LAV-25, the detail's not as impressive as this model. Special Artizan Service Miniatures may be a comparison as well - who's Boxer and Ratel IFVs go for $42 (and the detail's on part with Empress' LAV-25). Their newer Dagor (Humvee) goes for $50, and that comes with 5 crew. SASM also do pre-orders to pay for initial production as well.
-
Thank you for the well thought out responses gents - it's quite helpful. There is indeed a huge disadvantage here - our price point is set to break even on production start to finish of 50 models, which is already a lofty goal considering the niche within niche of Canadian modern subject matter. The company is simply trying to cover costs to make it happen, and in the end will lose on shipping 50 resin chunks and their metal bits from production to me, and then onto the customers, but if it makes the vehicle a reality, so be it.
It's easy to compare to other 3D printed models out there, however, the quality is generally easy to spot. There are often extremely visible ridges on the Z Axis of the print, which are then very obvious on the cast production pieces. Everyone has different quality expectations, however, if the Full Battle Rattle name is going to be attached to it, we want the best we can possibly get. If that means the products aren't for everybody, that's fine too.
-
'the best is the enemy of good enough' Sergey Gorshkov o_o
I do not want the 'best' quality (for that I am waiting for a Tamyia Kit...) I want a reasonably priced and reasonably detailed vehicle... :D
Said that, I have plenty of 3d Printed vehicles (15mm) from Butlers and the quality of the 3d print is extremely good and improving. I a tempted by some of the 28mm offers. Maybe a 3d printed final product could be a viable alternative.
-
Once you pile on all the proper stowage, camo netting etc half of the detail will be invisible anyhow. The vehicles for my current project are a mix of 3D printed and out-of-scale resin, but once I'm done I defy anyone who doesn't recognise the original models to tell.
-
TBH, I think Alex's price is fair enough.
I have been pricing 20mm models for the LAV-III and Coyote and Modell Trans makes fantastic looking stuff - at 40 Euros!!!!!
You would probably leave off a lot of the Modell Trans fiddly bits for wargaming, but the base models are clearly more detailed than the Empress LAV-25, for example.
Alex is offering a bigger, more resource intensive AFV with an excellent figures range to go with it and easily available opponents from Spectre, Empress and the others.
-
TBH, I think Alex's price is fair enough.
I have been pricing 20mm models for the LAV-III and Coyote and Modell Trans makes fantastic looking stuff - at 40 Euros!!!!!
You would probably leave off a lot of the Modell Trans fiddly bits for wargaming, but the base models are clearly more detailed than the Empress LAV-25, for example.
Alex is offering a bigger, more resource intensive AFV with an excellent figures range to go with it and easily available opponents from Spectre, Empress and the others.
well.... just because someone is ripping off people with overpriced models this is not an excuse to continue... I think it is time cusotmers vote with their feet against overprices...
-
I think it's harsh to accuse Alex of ripping people off. He is trying to get a specialised item to market, something that will likely sell in small numbers. I was in my local brick and mortar shop today, and plastic models from Warlord were priced at CAD$45 (slightly better prices for Rubicon). And that's for WWII tanks that will sell in big numbers. Warlord's prices for large resin tanks, such as King Tiger or Ioseph Stalin IS-2, prices get into the range of US$41 - $45 range (up to around CAD$60)
Alex is proposing a resin and metal model, which will have higher costs than a plastic model. As I mentioned in an earlier post, Company B asked USD$55 (approx CAD$72) for a Stryker, which is about as close a comparison to a LAV-III as you're likely to find. On that basis, Alex's price point of CAD$70 is not unreasonable. Now, as to whether you, or I, or anyone else, is ready to pay $70 is another matter altogether! (I regret that I am not currently ready to purchase a LAV-III)
-
Will, thank you for the elaboration, it helps clarify things that I think might be getting lost here. As mentioned by some others as well, this is entirely to make this project happen, and we will lose money, but at least a LAV-III will hit market.
Arrigo, feel free to contact me privately if you have any doubt as to how I got to my individual prices. I would appreciate you refraining from unfounded accusations in a public forum.
-
Will, thank you for the elaboration, it helps clarify things that I think might be getting lost here. As mentioned by some others as well, this is entirely to make this project happen, and we will lose money, but at least a LAV-III will hit market.
Arrigo, feel free to contact me privately if you have any doubt as to how I got to my individual prices. I would appreciate you refraining from unfounded accusations in a public forum.
the ripping off people comments was not directed to you, but at 40 Euros 20mm kits and the following line of thought. It was a lame reasoning to justify what I, and other people perceive as an extremely high price for a glorified APC (nothing against you, but vs the Stryker family!). I am pretty sure you have made your calculations and you already said there is a potential loss involved.
What I question is the wisdom of such a scheme. Not just for your wallet considering what you said (not that I am such a good samaritan, but I happens to like your range and I want it to continue!), but for the market as well. Yes a high quality LAV-III will hit the marker, but it will, possibly, be outside the majority of gamers' tables. Also I am quite sure that, even if the kit itself proves viable another issue will pop out, increasing the price (making it a sort of modern wargamer status symbol) or lowering the price and incurring in bad feelings from the pre-orderers? And then, considering it is a quite cool looking vehicle... what will happen if other manufacturers came out with lower priced knock offs? Happy me... but switching shoes I will feel a bit 'used'.
As I said earlier, and others also hinted perfection is the enemy of good enough. A good reasonably priced version would be much better from a lot of perspectives than an unreachable top quality one. It was the same of the Company B Stryker, it was much more expensive than the Empress one, and, to be brutally honest, my previous experience with Coy B resin had been less than positive. Yes it is riveted, but the empress one is still good, and with a bit of detailing it is very good on the table.
Apologies if I sounded too harsh, it was not my original intention (but I admit that I was a bit carried over by the sentence 'if it is not for everyone' long sad story...).
Best,
Arrigo
-
well.... just because someone is ripping off people with overpriced models this is not an excuse to continue... I think it is time cusotmers vote with their feet against overprices...
With respect, Arrigo. You are making it seem like Alex, Modell Trans and the others are retiring to a condo in Florida because they are charging $15 or $20 more for a better than normal product. My understanding from chatting to Alex is that he is just trying to break even by bringing good quality items to the public.
I'm sure the Modell Trans guy is just doing the same as Alex is - trying to cover his costs. This "industry" is more of a hobby for small producers with niche products than it is a paying business.
28mm is a skirmish scale. Guys are going to buy 1 or 2 of these models for a scenario. Few or none are going to buy a company of LAV-III's in 28mm. Guys spend a fortune in paint, brushes, varnish and scenery items to make a game memorable. The difference between buying a good quality product at the price that make sense for Alex and using an Empress LAV-25 and making believe it's a LAV-III is probably the same as a few pots of paint.
-
Perhaps ironically.... I checked the Company B website and noticed that both its Stryker products were "sold out", unlike most of its other models.
So SOMEONE is buying those "overpriced" models.
-
As a frequent visitor over several years to CompanyB's post-war page, I can report that their Strykers have been "sold out" every time I've been there. Which makes me suspect that they are among the companies which use "sold out" as a euphemism for "out of production."
-
To add some perspective; the LAV III is a BIG vehicle. Similar in size to a Leopard.
So priced the same as Warlords resin Tiger 2 is pretty reasonable considering smaller scale of production.
-
To add some perspective; the LAV III is a BIG vehicle. Similar in size to a Leopard.
So priced the same as Warlords resin Tiger 2 is pretty reasonable considering smaller scale of production.
It s a good point.
-
If you should need someone to paint the LAV model, pop me a message. I’d do it for postage and I’ve done all of GHQ’s LAV Canadian models ...
-
Good afternoon everyone,
Time for an updated on the LAV-III crowdfund:
We're about half way to where we really wanted to be to go into production, and just under 2/3 of the way to where we would try and figure something out. At this point, we're going to run the pre-order until Sunday, July 29, at which point we will either be able to move forward, or cancel the project and refund your money.
We'd like to thank everyone for their support of our little company, it's truly been a labour of love, and keep your head on a swivel for other news later this month!
-
We're just a few days away, and so close to our target, this might just move forward! If anyone was on the fence, now is the time to help make it happen!
https://fullbattlerattleminiatures.com/products/isaf-canadian-lav-iii (https://fullbattlerattleminiatures.com/products/isaf-canadian-lav-iii)
(https://ml-fd.caf-fac.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/avenging-gunner-6-1180x788.jpg)
-
Exciting news - we are moving forward on the project! I'll update as more WIP photos turn up!
-
Exciting news - we are moving forward on the project! I'll update as more WIP photos turn up!
Great news, Alex! I look forward to getting my 4 afv's!!
-
Fantastic news Alex, I can't wait for them to come out.
-
The first WiP shot of the LAV-3 turret.
(https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/49342985_786687855002482_3158155612425027584_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_eui2=AeH-Ruu17T9SkiLIUcg_TUcy-M_uw2Z-KTKdD8b-NAuW3wG8Luhv2NdRTFR2P9VMDqaKPkxjkSrqj13NYX61Rj74bdwI3vE4zhuOM5wiJBahVQ&_nc_ht=scontent-yyz1-1.xx&oh=7eadfa3e0e6842338e0044eb94e87032&oe=5C93F851)
-
Nice stowage racks.
-
I can appreciate the presentation on those details. Areas which can be thin - like the hinges of the turret hatches - aren't unnecessarily large or have a lack of depth as you see with other companies at this scale. The racks are as representational as the medium allows for without going to brass etch too. The resin doesn't have that "soft" look you see with some models too, with some nice hard edges to it.
There's been a question of price, though from experience with companies producing similar products, this looks like a good step up in quality in what's available. With the required mods already included if you want this particular variant of the vehicle (though I would assume that besides alternative turrets, producing other vehicles based on this chassis may be more the customer's decision than something which would be economical for you guys to come out with).
-
Thanks all, and thanks for sharing it Hugh! We're extremely pleased with the results, and can't wait to see the rest of it! The long journey is almost over :)
-
(https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/49259672_787312958273305_4554622636256133120_o.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ht=scontent-yyz1-1.xx&oh=0c51226647f4af9d409a6553b3c075c3&oe=5CD03A94)
I see from your FB page that the hull is also almost ready for production, Alex! It looks just as good as the turret!
-
(https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/49259672_787312958273305_4554622636256133120_o.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ht=scontent-yyz1-1.xx&oh=0c51226647f4af9d409a6553b3c075c3&oe=5CD03A94)
I see from your FB page that the hull is also almost ready for production, Alex! It looks just as good as the turret!
Are those lift rings on the table in front of the model?
-
Those rings mount to the sides of the "nose" and below it.
-
Are those lift rings on the table in front of the model?
I always just call them "little pieces that get lost in the rug when you pick them up with tweezers". IIRC, I've never actually managed to stick something that small onto a model. On one occasion, I DID super glue a few of them to my face somehow.....
-
Nice details, whether I would follow Huevans lead I do not know.
-
(https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/49259672_787312958273305_4554622636256133120_o.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ht=scontent-yyz1-1.xx&oh=0c51226647f4af9d409a6553b3c075c3&oe=5CD03A94)
I see from your FB page that the hull is also almost ready for production, Alex! It looks just as good as the turret!
Will one be able to put a TC in the turret hatch and a an air sentry in one of the back hatches?
-
Both turret and rear hatches have a cavity for crew and air sentries. There may be crew and air sentries coming ;)
-
That's a really lovely looking kit. Looks like a superb casting. Good luck with the sales.
-
Thanks Carlos! Feedback has been overwhelmingly positive now that we have the final-ish master!
-
Both turret and rear hatches have a cavity for crew and air sentries. There may be crew and air sentries coming ;)
Sexy!
-
That is indeed a lovely looking model, top work there. I'm pretty concerned that at that price you're not going to sell many though. I hope you prove me wrong, good luck!
-
It was a successfully crowdfunded project, but thanks for your concern!
-
https://fullbattlerattleminiatures.com/products/isaf-canadian-vehicle-crew?fbclid=IwAR3jCVGIEx1nSeuxZXoEb7GYT_AXlO53STWLxG5Gx2b01pV4ZbTaF-YfXPs
Crews and air sentries now available for LAV's!
-
Nice looking model and great work on the slat armour for the turret bustle. Hopefully you’ll do a 2A6M Leopard next.