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Hi Chaps,
I plopped a post on my blog about a recent purchase from Valiant/Rapid fire and have ust completed a British infantry Battalion. Amongst the responses was a very interesting snippet that Valiant are in the process of re scaling their miniatures to fit better with other manufacturers? Does anyone have any information about this please?
Also whilst I am here if anyone could give me rough sizes of 20mm scale houses, doors windows etc please? I have asked before but cannot find the post now!
Thanks in advance.
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1:1200 .. 1 inch equals 100 feet ...... 1.5 mm soldiers
1: 900 ... 1 inch equals 75 feet ........ 2 mm soldiers
1: 600 ... 1 inch equals 50 feet ........ 3 mm soldiers
1: 300 ... 1 inch equals 25 feet ........ 6 mm soldiers
1: 150 ... 1 inch equals 12.5 feet ..... 12 mm soldiers
1: 120 ... 1 inch equals 10 feet ........ 15 mm soldiers
1: 100 ... 1 inch equals 8 1/3 feet .... 18 mm soldiers
1: 90 ..... 1 inch equals 7.5 feet ....... 20 mm soldiers
1: 75 ..... 1 inch equals 6.25 feet ..... 24 mm soldiers
Windows vary by architect... Doors: standard 80 inch door should be 22.5mm. But[!] pragmatically the minimum size door should be the diameter of an individual figure base and 24mm tall. Because: 3mm thick base + 20mm figure + 1mm to spare = minimum door height of 24. I would make ceiling heights at least 30mm...
A 10x10 inch building would be a small, 75 foot per side, square warehouse (a 5,625 square foot space).
Hope some of that helps.
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Pendrake that is fantastic, thank you. I have made lots of 28mm buildings but I am finding my feet in 20mm which I have found to be trickier.
Thanks again
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Interesting scaling, in the UK 20mm is normally nearer 1/76 (or 4mm to the foot or UK 00 gauge scale *).
PSC label theirs at 1/72.
US and Continental HO (1/87 or 3.5mm to the foot) sounds close to the quoted 1/90.
Back to the top of the head or eye level...
(* it is OO gauge because it uses HO gauge track at 4mm to the foot scale, but that is a story for another day)
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Interesting scaling, in the UK 20mm is normally nearer 1/76 (or 4mm to the foot or UK 00 gauge scale *).
PSC label theirs at 1/72.
US and Continental HO (1/87 or 3.5mm to the foot) sounds is close to the quoted 1/90.
Back to the top of the head or eye level...
(* it is OO gauge because it uses HO gauge track at 4mm to the foot scale, but that is a story for another day)
Yes, I've never heard of 20mm = 1/90. 1/76 pretty much and very generally applied to 72 and 76, though in the last century, the former was frequently referred to as 25mm.
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Yes, I've never heard of 20mm = 1/90. 1/76 pretty much and very generally applied to 72 and 76, though in the last century, the former was frequently referred to as 25mm.
Interesting, 25mm is often given as figure size for 1/64 (S) scale.
S Scale society http://www.s-scale.org.uk/figures.htm#Commercial (http://www.s-scale.org.uk/figures.htm#Commercial)
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The maths of it could not be simpler:
20mm scale is ten times 2mm scale.
(But once a host of manufacturers, a multitude of fudge factors, and a vile horde of marketing majors trying to shift product jump into the mix, it becomes a mess instead of math.)
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Yes, I've never heard of 20mm = 1/90. 1/76 pretty much and very generally applied to 72 and 76, though in the last century, the former was frequently referred to as 25mm.
Some of the very early products from the 'German' companies (Preiser, Roco etc) were nominally 1/90, before moving to the very similar but 100% compatible with HO, 1/87 scale.
20mm is a size, not a scale, & traditionally associated with 1/72, which is of course, 1 inch equalling 6 feet, in 'proper' (Imperial) terms. ;) It's a very long established modelling scale indeed & nothing to do with being 10 X the size of 2mm. Incidentally 1/720 is a long established ship modelling scale.
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That explains it, I wondered where 1/72 came from - it still seems irrational, 4mm to the foot makes so much more sense ^__^.
Interesting about Roco, I had a bunch of Roco Minitanks back in the 'eighties, they seemed all over the place scale wise. my assumption was they were mixing 1/72, 1/76 and HO.
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Early 15mm used to be around 1/106, but these days it has standardised on 1/100th.
The sizes attributed to figures, 2mm, 6mm, 15mm or whatever are just labels and bear very little relation to actual scales. Scales can only really be determined by the attributes of physical objects which can be compared to their real life counterparts (vehicles, guns, aircraft, rifles). It is much harder for figures as there is no international scale police to determine whether you measure to eyes, crown or top of hat and does it include the base?
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Valiant are indeed rescaling and I've seen pictures on another forum of pre-production figures obtained at Bovington including this side by side with Dixon, SHQ and Adler.
(https://s19.postimg.cc/rzd51uypf/Comp_Val_20.jpg)
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They could all have been Platoon 20 figures in terms of height ^__^.
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ROCO were nominally 1/87 - HO, but 1/Box in reality.
Thanks to the adoption of 'foot to eye' measuring, you do get two scales being tied to minis, a '28mm' figure is actually about 31mm tall, so 5 and a bit mm to the foot, or around 1/57 to 1/60, rather than 1/65 which some people swear is the right scale.
A 'true' 20mm figure would thus be 1/87-ish, while a foot-to-eye 20mm would be 1/80. Likewise 1/76 and 1/72 are the 'inch high' or 25mm equivalents.
How 1/48 or O Scale fits in with its 40mm, or 37mm to the eye figure size, to 28mm, I couldn't begin to guess... unless it's to do with bases.
;)
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Real humans are 7 heads tall.
(https://s19.postimg.cc/rzd51uypf/Comp_Val_20.jpg)
In ^ this ^ pic...
The first three are: 6.5, 6, and 6 heads tall. :?
( What did I say earlier? “...host of manufacturers; multitude of fudge factors...” )
Edit: which one is the Valiant figure?
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The *average* human is 7.5 heads tall, a *tall* human is about 8. The pubic bone is usually the halfway point on the body and the wrists typically line up with the hip joint, the elbows with the navel.
Walk down any busy street and you'll see numerous exceptions to the above.
But what has that to do with scale height? :?
I'm guessing the Valiant figure is the plastic German, second from the right.
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The *average* human is 7.5 heads tall, a *tall* human is about 8. The pubic bone is usually the halfway point on the body and the wrists typically line up with the hip joint, the elbows with the navel.
Sources who are not you contend that it is a narrower fange than that. 7 to 7.5 heads.
Walk down any busy street and you'll see numerous exceptions to the above.
I have looked at Group Shots of peoples looking for such exceptions, shots of soldiers lined up at attention, etc., and found much conformity to the 7 to 7.5 rule. I will try looking at street shots of civilians. Shaquille O’Neill clocks in at 7 and change (although it’s uncommon to find a floor to noggin’ shot of him).
But what has that to do with scale height? :?
100% of gaming figures are out of scale with and not in proportion with real humans. (Or maybe it is 97% and I have not found the figure ranges that got it correct.) But the point is that since no figure is sculpted to scale, it renders all the endless, “...are these figures in scale with?...” debates pointless. None of them are the right size or proportion. And it gets even sillier when the debate is about fantasy figures. In some fantasy locale, realm, or plane there could be humans of markedly different heights or odd proportions. That notion is not nearly as fantastic as Dragons.
I'm guessing the Valiant figure is the plastic German, second from the right.
I was guessing the same. OP didn’t mention plastics though (But I was thinking it did.)
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Thanks for the responses guys... a bit more in depth than I expected! I am pretty surprised that they are rescaling, my old eyes are fond of the bigger size they use. Oh well I will keep my figures painted so far very seperate.... maybe they will release some plastic French to make up for this?
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I agree with Arlequín on the Valiant figure.
On proportions, reference:
"The head to body ratio is a little more complex as it changes from a ratio of about one to four for a small child to about one to eight for an adult. "
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/human-body-ratios/ (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/human-body-ratios/)
Please can we remain polite.
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Valiant are indeed rescaling and I've seen pictures on another forum of pre-production figures obtained at Bovington including this side by side with Dixon, SHQ and Adler.
(https://s19.postimg.cc/rzd51uypf/Comp_Val_20.jpg)
From what we could see on this pict, supposly showing a new “rescaled “ Valiant figure, i m sorry to say that they were and still are totally incompatible and useless minis.
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Indeed, you can tell it is Valiant because it (still) towers above the SHQ figure. Otoh, lots of figures tower above SHQ.
Wrt the whole proportions thing, many/most figures are sculpted with oversize heads, hands, feet and weapons, as they look "better" that way. Honorable exceptions being AB and a small number of soft plastic figures.
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Please can we remain polite.
Maybe I missed something, have we been otherwise? :)
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:o Oh bugger I better buy a stock of the original "big" Valiant before they become unavailable then....
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100% of gaming figures are out of scale with and not in proportion with real humans.
Some are more noticeably so than others, though, and various parts of the body, equipment, and/or weapons vary in proportion.
it renders all the endless, “...are these figures in scale with?...” debates pointless.
I think if you replace"in scale with" with "go well with" then the debates and preferences are valid.
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As someone who has tried to fit Redbox Njorns (Vikings) with old Gripping Beast Vikings I really can confirm it does matter. Height is one issue, but as stated people vary in height so it's not such of a worry. But the difference in the way features, extremities and weaponry are modelled jars with the eye and makes it look like a freak show.
But as with so much else, if the individual doesn't mind, it doesn't matter. If they do, it does.
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I could easily live with some body shape variety, but helmets and rifles etc were not 'shrink to fit'. Private 'Lofty' might only be 26mm, but his rifle and helmet should be the same size as Cpl Tiny's, even though he's 30mm.
:)
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What size are these Valiant figures going to be anyway? That German looks quite good, but is he the traditional WWI "20mm" scale? (If so, that's some very nice detail on a figure that small). 28mm and You've got my attention.
I could easily live with some body shape variety, but helmets and rifles etc were not 'shrink to fit'. Private 'Lofty' might only be 26mm, but his rifle and helmet should be the same size as Cpl Tiny's, even though he's 30mm.
:)
Precisely.
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The original Valiant figures are around 25 mm in height, and compatible with no other range I'm aware of. Judging by the photo, the rescaled ones are about 22m, larger than most 20mm metal figures but compatible with 1/72 soft plastic figures. If not, I'm not sure why they bothered.
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Resurrected from one of the LAF's catacombs. I got a box of Valiant British Infantry the first week they came out, the same week Colin assured me British Airborne were in the pipeline!
Well since then we've all grown old, fat, and grey but sadly still no Paras. Thing is, my spies tell me Valiant figures have been scaled down to fit in with everybody else's toy sowjers. Does this mean my original box from back in the day won't mix if I glean some new ones?
:? ??? :?
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When FAA were up and running, ye good olde days, people would ask 'what scale?'. My reply was always they are not scaled the models are 20mm eye-to-foot.
If persistent I'd suggest that one should allow about 1.5mm from eye to top of head and you have the height. What height you chose to allocate to the 'real world person' this represents is up to you.
The average European and American soldier was 5' 8" in WW2, 5' 10" in Vietnam and currently approx 5' 11". Japanese and many Asian races were 5' 4" to 5' 6" through this period. Yet all are represented by the same '20mm' figure.
For figures to be scale height a manufacturer has to say what height they are presenting their figures to be.
Otherwise it's always well this looks about right.... And then you have to account for bases, are they on figures and not vehicles. This, along with aforementioned head,arm, weapon distortion, makes correct scale vehicles seem small.
Hence 28mm figures can work with 1:48 vehicles when figures would be approx 34 high (?) I'm doing this from memory, sorry.
Anyway it is too easy to become a circular discussion. If scale is an issue then you have to have shorter figures for WW2 than say Vietnam or Mid-east or produce different sized copies of same vehicle for each conflict.
If you have same sized figures and vehicles then they are a size (28mm e.g.) not a scale.
That's my 2¢
Cheers John
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When FAA were up and running, ye good olde days, people would ask 'what scale?'. My reply was always they are not scaled the models are 20mm eye-to-foot.
Not a name I have heard referenced in years! Such a great brand. Some of the ranges still hold up very well with the passage of years. Even today there's no 20mm maker who comes close to possessing the balls they had in putting out Greeks and Norwegians. Too bad they never got around to the Finns or Slovaks.
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FAA are still available, now based in USA.
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Resurrected from one of the LAF's catacombs. I got a box of Valiant British Infantry the first week they came out, the same week Colin assured me British Airborne were in the pipeline!
Well since then we've all grown old, fat, and grey but sadly still no Paras. Thing is, my spies tell me Valiant figures have been scaled down to fit in with everybody else's toy sowjers. Does this mean my original box from back in the day won't mix if I glean some new ones?
:? ??? :?
Raventhorpe have a range of British Paras in metal that are based on the Valiant bodies, l have seen them and they are nice figures.
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That's interesting. Is there a link please, to where these figures can be seen, and hopefully gleaned?
???
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So far, Valiant have produced two boxes of the re-scaled figures and they are being sold under the banner of Valiant 20. To date these are German Infantry and their support weapons. I no longer have my old Valiant so cannot compare, but the new ones sit well with A&B 20mm Germans. I think a box is helpful just to throw some different poses amongst other figure types.
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That's interesting. Is there a link please, to where these figures can be seen, and hopefully gleaned?
???
They are available direct from Raventhorpe, email anthonyraven1@hotmail.co.UK
They are listed as the following packs
V1 British Paras Rifle Company £8
V2 HQ Company £10
V3 Support Company £8
V4 Battalion pack £42
I imagine the packs are based on Rapid Fire units, prices are from Dec 20.
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The tale of the calculator.
If an average man is 5'9" =1752.6mm
1752.6mm divided by 1/87 =20mm (HO railway scale)
1752.6mm divided by 1/76 =23mm (OO railway scale)
1752.6mm divided by 1/72 =24.3mm
1752.6mm divided by 1/64 =27.4mm.
Some of the very old first poly Airfix figures were 20mm as I remember, or very near, but later sets got bigger.
But the Airfix HO/OO vehicles were always 1/76.
So "20mm" has NEVER really been 20mm.
Never subscribed to this measuring to eyes rubbish. When you measure your child to see how big he's grown do you just measure him up to his eyes and insist that is how big he is?
And don't even get me started on PSC's new 1/144 stuff being "10mm".
1/144 is exactly half the size of 1/72. So is obviously 12mm.
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You tell 'em James. :D
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They are available direct from Raventhorpe, email anthonyraven1@hotmail.co.UK
They are listed as the following packs
V1 British Paras Rifle Company £8
V2 HQ Company £10
V3 Support Company £8
V4 Battalion pack £42
I imagine the packs are based on Rapid Fire units, prices are from Dec 20.
Thanks for that, most appreciated.
:)
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The tale of the calculator.
If an average man is 5'9" =1752.6mm
1752.6mm divided by 1/87 =20mm (HO railway scale)
1752.6mm divided by 1/76 =23mm (OO railway scale)
1752.6mm divided by 1/72 =24.3mm
1752.6mm divided by 1/64 =27.4mm.
Some of the very old first poly Airfix figures were 20mm as I remember, or very near, but later sets got bigger.
But the Airfix HO/OO vehicles were always 1/76.
So "20mm" has NEVER really been 20mm.
Never subscribed to this measuring to eyes rubbish. When you measure your child to see how big he's grown do you just measure him up to his eyes and insist that is how big he is
Of course you don't measure a real person from the eyes because you can access the top of their head - unless they're permanently wearing a tin helmet or similar. Figures you cannot.
A size is there for reference. I think I explained that. Our 20mm figures were sold as that size measured from foot to eye. Sorry you don't like that but that was the size. I was not at all interested in describing them as a 'scale'.
When a number is offered as size one accepts that as reference point or not but that's how the manufacturer sells them, they aren't scale. Railways are sold in scales, kits are sold in scale but wargaming figures are not. The sizes have equivalents but they are approximate.
That's it physicist
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It’s a shame they didn’t go further and rescale them to 15mm, that would have been wonderful.
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Don’t use Airfix as a standard. Their original stuff was termed OO/HO to go with contemporary British model railways. The trouble was the British model railway systems have always been based around a bastardised scale. They are made from 1/76 scale bodies (OO) that run on 1/87 scale track (HO). There are technical reasons for that which have long ceased being an issue, but we are stuck with the results…..just remember OO/HO is neither fish nor foul.
Figures were based around a six foot high person because it made the pre-metric (and pre calculator) period maths easier. 1/72 therefore scaling at one inch high. The trouble was headgear….the convention then became to measure height to the eyes, then various sculptors stretched the envelope (and the body, come to that), resulting in today’s plethora of scales……add in the fudged up adoption of the metric system and we are on a hiding to nothing. Everything is subject to the whim of the respective sculptor, being made in proportion to the actual figure. There is no real application of scale in the realm of toy soldiers…..if there was then items with defined size, such as rifles and packs, would be identical from range to range. Unfortunately they obviously are not!
Comes down to finding a sculptor or range you like and then building your toy arms around that. Don’t try to find consistency around application of scale because it doesn’t exist ;)
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I had high hopes when the first ones come out, when they arrived I was so disappointed in the height, I painted a lot for a club game then they have sat unused as they do not match anything else.
I will possibly pick up some new boxs and build again!
:o Oh bugger I better buy a stock of the original "big" Valiant before they become unavailable then....
If you want some PM me I have a box of Brits unbuilt of the old version and four boxes of Germans built and painted.
Cheers
Matt
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Resurrected from one of the LAF's catacombs. I got a box of Valiant British Infantry the first week they came out, the same week Colin assured me British Airborne were in the pipeline!
Well since then we've all grown old, fat, and grey but sadly still no Paras. Thing is, my spies tell me Valiant figures have been scaled down to fit in with everybody else's toy sowjers. Does this mean my original box from back in the day won't mix if I glean some new ones?
:? ??? :?
Apparently so
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Comes down to finding a sculptor or range you like and then building your toy arms around that. Don’t try to find consistency around application of scale because it doesn’t exist ;)
So true, so wise. :)
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You wouldn’t say that if you knew me LOL……
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Of course you don't measure a real person from the eyes because you can access the top of their head - unless they're permanently wearing a tin helmet or similar. Figures you cannot.
A size is there for reference. I think I explained that. Our 20mm figures were sold as that size measured from foot to eye. Sorry you don't like that but that was the size. I was not at all interested in describing them as a 'scale'.
When a number is offered as size one accepts that as reference point or not but that's how the manufacturer sells them, they aren't scale. Railways are sold in scales, kits are sold in scale but wargaming figures are not. The sizes have equivalents but they are approximate.
That's it physicist
Haha JohnFoA thank you for calling me a physicist.
I get it that you use 20mm as a wargaming reference and you explained quite clearly that your figures were 20mm measured foot to eye and marketed as such...I got that.
But if you take a figure that is 20mm to eyes it will be 22-23mm overall....that is all I am saying.
20mm is really 23mm.
25mm is really 27-28mm
28mm is really 31mm
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Haha JohnFoA thank you for calling me a physicist.
Wot's a physicist?
Meanwhile here's some Raventhorpe Paras...
:)
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Hey Harry you got those impressively quickly. Somebody at the bridge must have fixed the radio lol
How do you like them?
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Haha JohnFoA thank you for calling me a physicist.
I get it that you use 20mm as a wargaming reference and you explained quite clearly that your figures were 20mm measured foot to eye and marketed as such...I got that.
But if you take a figure that is 20mm to eyes it will be 22-23mm overall....that is all I am saying.
20mm is really 23mm.
25mm is really 27-28mm
28mm is really 31mm
And there is scale creep….right there lol lol lol
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Hey Harry you got those impressively quickly. Somebody at the bridge must have fixed the radio lol
How do you like them?
Like e'm? They're absolutely spiffing...
or will be when I've fixed the Stens into Mk.Vs!
:)
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Gosh I have some of those lanky Paras I did not know they were Raventhorpe !
Cheers
Matt
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And there is scale creep….right there lol lol lol
Well over the sector yes and no - but we did work very hard to keep all figures at 20mm - although we did IIRC do some Asian figures a little shorter.
I did experiment with a small (number of packs) Vietnam range with taller figures around 1/72 scale. Again I think these were 23mm to eye making them 5' 10" tall at 1/72. That would be scale creep. Sold them off when planning to do 28mm SCW. BIG regret. I feel now that these were a great size. Ho hum.
Anyway this thread is about RESCALING so I should stick to that. If figures are getting smaller is that scale creep?
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Haha JohnFoA thank you for calling me a physicist.
I get it that you use 20mm as a wargaming reference and you explained quite clearly that your figures were 20mm measured foot to eye and marketed as such...I got that.
But if you take a figure that is 20mm to eyes it will be 22-23mm overall....that is all I am saying.
20mm is really 23mm.
25mm is really 27-28mm
28mm is really 31mm
Your welcome
And yes on overall size - however it depends on what you allow for distance between eyes and crown of skull. As I understand its typically between 4 and 6 inches - 100-150mm in the EU ( lol).
So at 4mm to 12"/300mm (1:72) add 1 1/2 to 2mm
At 4.6mm to 12"/300mm (1/65 or 28mm eye to foot) add pretty much the same maybe 1.75 mm to 2.25mm for overall.
Anyway if/when I do some figures I will have a bald headed mannikin prototype made up to a scale and hair/hat go on top but I'll be able to say this represents a person 'x' tall.
Still can't please everyone ;D
cheers all
Hope you're able to source the figures okay.
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Gosh I have some of those lanky Paras I did not know they were Raventhorpe !
Cheers
Matt
Some piccys would be nice, for a bit of painting inspiration.
:)