Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of the Big Battalions => Topic started by: vtsaogames on September 07, 2018, 07:42:14 PM
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No tin soldier game last night, so no report today. For those having trouble sleeping, here is a post on why the Battle of New Orleans mattered https://corlearshookfencibles.blogspot.com/ (https://corlearshookfencibles.blogspot.com/)
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Interesting. Thanks for posting.
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Ditto.
Although I suspect the main importance was the American victory at the final battle meant they won the war....
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Thank you!
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The strategic importance of New Orleans, as the outlet to the oceans of the entire Mississippi basin, can not be over-stated. If some foreign state had held New Orleans, the United States could not have developed into a continental power; more likely several weak and unstable republics would have contested the heartland of North America.
The United States could not allow the southern states to secede with New Orleans; control of the Mississippi was the key issue of the American Civil War; abolition of slavery was a means to crush the Confederacy and regain the lower Mississippi valley.
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Irv, your reply prompted me to add a statement to my post about the importance of New Orleans and why it wasn't just another city. Thanks.
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Ditto.
Although I suspect the main importance was the American victory at the final battle meant they won the war....
lol
Good one.
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Origin of jazz. The rest is of minor concern. ;)
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Very interesting and thought provoking article, I enjoy these “ What if “ discussions.
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Origin of jazz. The rest is of minor concern. ;)
When the troops returned from the Spanish American War, the demobilized bands sold their instruments in New Orleans. The glut of brass wind instruments gave rise to the fabled New Orleans brass bands, more music bequeathed by war.
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All this is very interesting historical info, thank you for sharing!
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The strategic importance of New Orleans, as the outlet to the oceans of the entire Mississippi basin, can not be over-stated. If some foreign state had held New Orleans,.......
Very true, but there is a big difference between a foreign power winning on US soil and "holding" a city. I'll disagree and say the battle had no impact beyond raising the morale of the Americans and sending Jackson to the White House. Even if the Brits had crushed the US defenders at New Orleans, the Treaty of Ghent's "status quo ante bellum" clause would have made sure the city was returned. After New Orleans, the British captured Fort Bowyer at the mouth of Mobile Bay, and Forts Port Peter and St. Tammany on the Georgia coast. They don't belong to England now, why would one expect New Orleans to be different?
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Bowman, it's possible, maybe likely that Britain would not have kept New Orleans after a battlefield victory in 1815. My point is that permanent ownership of the city and the territory by the United States was far from settled, at that time and later, and that New Orleans was the key to the heartland of North America.
There was a lot of banana republic instability in the old southern borderlands in the early 19th century. President Jefferson's Louisiana Purchase in a moment when Napoleon was distracted was an unlikely stroke of fortune in the first place. William Bowles declared an independent state of Muscogee in Florida in 1799; Aaron Burr intended to detach the trans-Appalachian west, including Louisiana, into a new republic in 1806; the Red Stick Creeks rose in 1812; the Negro Fort colony was planted on the Apalachicola River in 1815; the First Seminole War started in 1818; and then there was that whole Secession thing starting in 1861. Matters could have turned out very differently.
From our perspective in the 21st century, the outcome of a trans-continental United States may seem to have been inevitable Manifest Destiny but it was far from settled for a long time, and it would not have been possible without New Orleans.
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... Even if the Brits had crushed the US defenders at New Orleans, the Treaty of Ghent's "status quo ante bellum" clause would have made sure the city was returned. After New Orleans, the British captured Fort Bowyer at the mouth of Mobile Bay, and Forts Port Peter and St. Tammany on the Georgia coast. They don't belong to England now, why would one expect New Orleans to be different?
The forts captured were not part of the Louisiana Purchase. Great Britain didn't recognize the legality of the Purchase. Therefore they could argue that New Orleans (and the rest of the Purchase) were not covered by the status quo ante bellum. The defeat rendered that argument moot. Such is the opinion of the late Robin Reilly in his "The British at the Gates". He was a British historian who lived in New Orleans for a number of years and had a very balanced take on the battle.
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The forts captured were not part of the Louisiana Purchase. Great Britain didn't recognize the legality of the Purchase. Therefore they could argue that New Orleans (and the rest of the Purchase) were not covered by the status quo ante bellum.
I wouldn't be so sure. I don't believe the legality or acceptance of the Louisiana Purchase was ever an article of the Treaty of Ghent. From the get go Adams and Clay's positions were an adamant expectation that all lands would be returned to the pre-war 1812 boundaries. After a long time in counter proposals, the British negotiators turned to the Duke of Wellington for advice. His quick advice was to agree to a "status quo ante bellum".
"When approved by their respective governments all hostilities would end and “all territory, places and possessions whatsoever, taken by either party from the other during the war” would be restored as they were before the war. In short, no one won a thing."
http://www.pbs.org/wned/war-of-1812/essays/treaty-ghent/
The defeat rendered that argument moot. Such is the opinion of the late Robin Reilly in his "The British at the Gates". He was a British historian who lived in New Orleans for a number of years and had a very balanced take on the battle.
Yes, the loss made the argument moot. However, only one day after taking Fort Bowyer, the victorious British found out about the Treaty of Ghent. They immediately left the Fort and all holdings in the Gulf Coast. And this was on Feb. 12-13, 1815, about 5 days before Washington even officially ratified the Treaty of Ghent.
I'm sure Reilly is an admirable historian. Even if the British held New Orleans, together with the various forts on the Gulf Coast and Atlantic Coast and Mackinac Island, I'm not convinced John Adams, Henry Clay and Arthur Wellesley, the Duke of Wellington would have argued any differently. And I doubt the outcome would have been any different.
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Bowman, it's possible, maybe likely that Britain would not have kept New Orleans after a battlefield victory in 1815. My point is that permanent ownership of the city and the territory by the United States was far from settled, at that time and later, and that New Orleans was the key to the heartland of North America.
I agree with all you say, and New Orleans was a strategic holding whose ownership was still to be settled. But that's not the same as stating that it would have ended up as a British territory or protectorate had the British won the battle.
On a smaller case, The British still held Mackinac Island at the end of the war. This island and fort controlled all movement in and out of Lake Michigan and back into Lake Huron. During the early phases of negotiations the British said they wanted to keep this possession. The Americans wouldn't even hear of that, and the British side quickly dropped the issue. New Orleans would have been an even bigger sticking point.
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When the troops returned from the Spanish American War, the demobilized bands sold their instruments in New Orleans. The glut of brass wind instruments gave rise to the fabled New Orleans brass bands, more music bequeathed by war.
That I did not know - thanks!
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When the troops returned from the Spanish American War, the demobilized bands sold their instruments in New Orleans. The glut of brass wind instruments gave rise to the fabled New Orleans brass bands, more music bequeathed by war.
That's news to me too. Thanks for that.
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On our periodic trips to New Orleans, my wife and I seek out brass bands. Best of all is when they parade and we can dance in the streets.
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But is it pronounced New Orleans or New Orleans?
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More like N'awlins.
And Chartres Street is Charters, Urselines is Ursuns...
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The Battle of New Orleans did matter but only for the fact that without it Johnny Horton would have been best remembered, if at all, as the author of ‘Honky-Tonk Man’ and thus would have been an even smaller footnote in the history of popular American music..
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More like N'awlins.
And Chartres Street is Charters, Urselines is Ursuns...
And Tchoupitoulas Street is.... aw shit I don't know.
I actually read a book called Why New Orleans Matters, published shortly after Katrina, a good read.
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The Battle of New Orleans did matter but only for the fact that without it Johnny Horton would have been best remembered, if at all, as the author of ‘Honky-Tonk Man’ and thus would have been an even smaller footnote in the history of popular American music..
Lol!
My funny Nawlins story is going to see the Preservation Jazz Hall Band. I remember leaning on the side wall inside the hall while listening to the band and thinking I'd fall through the plaster. But that was way before Katrina. Also they did requests. The sign said, "All requests $10. A request for "Oh, When the Saints go marching......." $25"
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When I was lucky enough to visit Nawlins I couldn't get the song 'Walking to Nawlins' out of my head, well the first line as I couldn't remember the rest. Going down in the hotel lift, for our walking tour, I asked fellow tourists. Like me they knew the first line only. Same in the reception area, and
on the mini-bus to the centre of town. Even the (American) tour guide knew the first line only, but he said, 'Don't worry I will ask the local guide when we pick her up' The local guide, when asked,
uttered the dreaded words, 'I know the first line.....'
Never mind we did have a great time there.
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When I was lucky enough to visit Nawlins I couldn't get the song 'Walking to Nawlins' out of my head, well the first line as I couldn't remember the rest. Going down in the hotel lift, for our walking tour, I asked fellow tourists. Like me they knew the first line only. Same in the reception area, and
on the mini-bus to the centre of town. Even the (American) tour guide knew the first line only, but he said, 'Don't worry I will ask the local guide when we pick her up' The local guide, when asked,
uttered the dreaded words, 'I know the first line.....'
Never mind we did have a great time there.
New Orleans is my home, that's the reason why I roam...
I'm walking to New Orleans.
Fats Domino. Written by Bobby Charles! A great songwriter.
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I'm reminded of an American girlfriend who politely told me she was from Chicago and if I made one Al Capone joke it was all off, and of the woman from Kansas that I asked if she was a good witch or a bad witch (I still have the scars).
Touchy folk, Americans.
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A late reply: Mackinac Island was also not part of the Louisiana Purchase and therefore covered under the status quo articles of the treaty. The treaty did not mention the Purchase. It would only have become an issue if Packenham had succeeded in occupying New Orleans. The issue was rendered moot by the defeat.
As an aside, I note Wellington was not at all interested in New World adventures. In 1808 he was given command of an expeditionary force slated for an attack on Spanish colonies in South America*. He was much happier when the expedition was instead sent to the Peninsula following the Spanish rising against the French. In 1814 he was offered command in Canada and turned it down.
* According to Michael Glover's The Peninsular War