Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: Anselm van Helsing on October 13, 2018, 12:02:17 PM
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Please help & educate me.
What was the equipment and organization of the Byzantine Empire like around 1200. I understand it was a troubled period, but it seems also an under-researched one. Any good books with pictures?
Does someone manufacture fitting minis for this Byzantine period? I see lot of early and middle period Byzantines, but couldn't find late ones.
Thanks for your help & insights!
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Is there anything that can be done with Fireforge's plastic Byzantines? I know they are a bit early but I don't think there is a range for later Byzantine forces.
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Crusader Miniatures do a great range for this army in 28mm.
Then you get to add Normans, Seljuks, Pechenegs and various south European infantry types.
Great army.
The Byzantine Empire 1035-1204 by Michael Arnold
The Development of the Komnenian Army 1081-1180 - John W Birkenmeier
Both good books and well worth a read.
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Is there anything that can be done with Fireforge's plastic Byzantines? I know they are a bit early but I don't think there is a range for later Byzantine forces.
Yes, I'm thinking of getting a box of plastic Byzantine spearmen from Fireforge. But after a lot of googling I feel that box cannot serve as a basis for a later army. I'm also troubled with the quality of the sculpts and poses. I actually think the Fireforge Russian plastic box would be at least as good a choice for basic professional Late Byzantine infantry.
@Phillius, Thanks, the Crusader range does have potential, and the sculpts look better than the Fireforge plastic set. Yet I'm not sure with the period, and I don't know what size the Crusader minis are. They somehow look smallish and stunted to my eye.
You're right, I should consider other than strictly Byzantines too. There were a lot of mercenaries, from all over the Mediterranean/Pontic/Asia Minor areas, many of them ethnic.
Thanks for the book recommendations!
Would you say the Wikipedia article on the later Byzantine army about correct?
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The Crusader figures are quite chunky, and height wise they are similar to Old Glory.
I used the old Gripping Beast Vikings as Varangians, and they were similar to them in size.
My biggest problem with the Crusader figures, was that most of the cavalry had their hands open and facing downwards, so that their spears often popped out if I touched the spear when picking up the figure.
As for style, my reading indicated that the Byzantines were quite "archaic" in dress, right up to the 15th century. The wikipedia article claims they were more advanced than their western counterparts. I'm not so sure, the traditional view is that the army was destroyed at Mantzikert and the Civil Wars that followed, and then had to be supplemented by mercenaries who sometimes outnumbered the natives.
I think it is still a period that does not have a lot of coverage in any form of media, so you are open to interpreting the information how you feel really. I played DBMM with my army, and it was definitely very average, with limited good troops, lots of average, and a fair bit of poor quality stuff.
Great fun though.
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Phillius, thanks for your insights. I've come to the conclusion that the Crusader & GB figures are not to my taste, and not how I picture late 12th and 13th C Byzantines.
There are so many beatiful Late Roman and Early to Mid Byzantines. And still I have this dream of Late Byzantine... How come this vision got inserted into my head? :D
As of now, I feel the various metals and plastics are not to my taste. Many metals (and resins) are good, but of the older type. Fireforge plastics (Byzantines and Rus) do not look to be of high quality. (Maybe rank-and-file still?)
What I desperately need are upper bodies with lamellar armour. But I find it a waste of money to buy a big plastic box for only a couple of such bodies. Or buy expensive resins (V&V from Ukraine are really really crisp!) and then modify them. So, what I'm thinking atm is sculpting a couple of lamellar chestpieces myself, and see if I can achieve anything. Maybe mould them and copy them in resin (never tried that myself), and fit them to such high/late medieval bodies there are plenty of in the market. Or possibly create a lamellar "topping" in instant mold, and use that to copy lamellar armour directly on other high/late medieval figures. And then use some alternate heads. Quite a trouble still...
What about the cavalry? Would the Late Komnenian and 13th C Byzantine armies still include cataphracts?
As for style, my reading indicated that the Byzantines were quite "archaic" in dress, right up to the 15th century. The wikipedia article claims they were more advanced than their western counterparts. I'm not so sure, the traditional view is that the army was destroyed at Mantzikert and the Civil Wars that followed, and then had to be supplemented by mercenaries who sometimes outnumbered the natives.
All the Komenian era pictures I could glean from the web indeed show Byzantine looking soldiers, with lamellar armour, older style helmets, skirts and footwear. But I think by 13th century at least the Byzantines would have followed the western European armour and shield types more, with mail and kite shields dominating. And long mail sleeves. At least their western mercenaries probably looked quite western. One Wikipedia picture commentary pointed out that the Byzantines seem to have adopted the Norman upward pose of riding, and very probably the Norman style of using the lance too. I think this kind of mixing of traditions is to be expected in the Crusade era Eastern Mediterranean.
I can image my Late Komneian or 13th C Byzantine army being composed of
- Two or three units of western mercenaries, one of them possibly mounted (easy to obtain from the market)
- One or two units (or two or three smaller units) of mounted eastern mercenaries with spear and bow (easy to obtain from the market)
- A couple of units of militia, in somewhat more traditional dress, with spear and bow (need kitbashing, but doable)
- Two units of imperial elites, one mounted (cataphracts?) and one the Varangian guard* (need kitbashing and probably sculpting too)
*Don't know if the Varangian guard was around after the sack of Constantinople. But I would imagine there to be a somewhat similar heavy infantry contingent also in the 13th C fractured Empire. Maybe I cannot field this unit (or the 2H axe wielding guys) in all battles, but I sure want to build one. :)
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I think you really need to focus on a period !
1150 Byzantine empire is different that 1250 Byzantine emprie (As an exemple in 1250 Constantinopolis is the capital of the Roman Latin Empire and the byzantine empire is shattered in numerous little powers (Nicea, Trebizondus,Epirus for the main states)
The Byzantyne armies is, till 11th century, made for a large part of mercenaries from East (Petcheneg and later Cumans) and from West (remember as an exemple Harald Hardadra or Roussel de Bailleul)
The Byzantine/greek part of the army is really, i think , made of soldiers with lamellar armour , older style helmets, footwear and skirts, (Byzantine is very conservative ;)) and with a lot of peasant's archers (i use Wargames factory Persians bowmen with head swap - i used Dark ages WestWind head, and Essex medieval quiver, very simple ones)
I advice you to watch at the DBMM army lists (i could sent you this lists if you want)and focus on a period before or after the 1204 crusade !
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Anselm Van Helsing: I agree with your assessment of the FG pastic Byzantines though I think their spearmen are nicer sculpts than their archers. Regardless , not really accurate for the period.
This piece is from the 14thC and it does seem to show Byzantine soldiers in rather dated looking attire:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f0/Jews_Byzantine_Greek_Alexander_Manuscript_%28cropped%29.JPG)
Or how about this one from even later:
(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/98/cd/d2/98cdd290e7eefb80656236b8c790f28b.jpg)
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I think you really need to focus on a period !
By choosing 1150-1250 I've done exactly that.
The fact that the early part is organized Komnenian and the latter part splintered Nicaean etc. shouldn't have a big influence on the way the soldiers are equipped. We're talking about the Balkans and the Eastern Mediterranean around the 3rd and the 4th crusades, and the constant military action surely influenced armour, equipment and perhaps even dress everywhere. I would still enjoy doing models and units with a distinct Byzantine look, and I think there was that.
When it comes to wargame rules and army lists, I agree with you that there is a division point around 1200. I will probably be using different lists for Late Komnenian and 13th century Byzantium. Some units that were around earlier may not be there later. And vice versa. It's OK for me. It allows me to model different units, mix, and pick fitting units for games and scenarios.
@Codsticker, thanks for digging out evidence. I agree that everyone seems to agree that Byzantine troops, especially the Guard units that accompanied the Emperor, had a distinct and traditional look. Yet Church art is problematic, especially in the East, where it was more traditional than in the West.
I cannot show here pictures from Osprey books and the like, because of copyright reasons. But I'll link to a a couple of 54mm figures of Byzantines around 1200-1250. They seem to be closely modelled after certain Angus McBride illustrations.
(https://www.picclickimg.com/d/w1600/pict/263153978722_/Byzantine-Infantryman-Tin-Toy-soldier-54-mm-figurine.jpg)
(https://www.picclickimg.com/d/w1600/pict/253813446970_/Painted-Toy-tin-soldiers-54-mm-Byzantine-infantryman.jpg)
(https://nmpnis.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/54c06_g.jpg)
I feel these capture the feeling I'm after: believable combination of eastern and western period armour & shields, with a distinctly Byzantine look. Pity they aren't 28mm.
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I've got a couple of illustrated books, let me pull them out and see if I can scan a couple of pages- it's OK to PM you with them, yeah?
D
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You might be able to alter (head swaps, mostly I think) some of Fireforge's Russian Infantry to resemble that middle figure:
(https://fireforge-games.com/194-large_default/russian-infantry.jpg)
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Yeah, the Fireforge Rus seem to be a fair plastic set to start tinkering towards ca. 1200 Byzantines.
But they have received a very mixed welcome here, and I sort of understand why some people don't appreciate them. The mail is quite lowsy, and the fitting of the parts seems to absolutely require greenstuff and/or cutting. Converting etc. I actually like, but the mail makes me unhappy.
Still, if I'm off to cover much of the mail with some sort of instamold lamellar, it shouldn't be a problem.
Thanks for reminding me about this. Especially now, when I can get a box at a discount with their Forgotten World KS. I'll also get a box of the Foot Sergeants. If nothing else, they are a good all-around set for high middle ages. I'm actually thinking of using those KS Northmen in this Byzantine project. Or at least see with my own eyes & feel with my own fingers if they can be used.
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When it comes to eastern roman empire (I dont like the made up term ''byzantine'' that much), unfortunatelly and curiously enough we dont have the amount of archaelogical findings that we have from other eras. So the main sources about weapons and panoply, are artistic depictions and artifacts bellonging to cultures that were under the cultural influence of the empire. Most of the artistic depictions are religious icons, or have religious themes. And that creates a small problem. There was a tradition going back to classical Greece, to depict gods and heroes with archaic arms and oldfashioned haircuts/clothes. It was a way to seperate those figures from contemporary ones, ant also to denote that they are part of a fabled past. The same tradition continued with the depiction of saints after the conversion to christianity. There is a deliberately antiquated style to them although some times we get contemporary glimpses. For example there are icons that clearly show after a point the use of frankish high saddles, or kite shields and even bascinet helmets.
Another interesting thing is that while indeed stylisticaly the eastern romans liked to invoke a ''classical'' appearence in their armour, the actual protection they had was superior to the one of the western knights of 10th-11th century (and beyond that). Only after the introduction of full plate armours the western knight, had the advantage. In the period we are discussing, the protection level was pretty much the same. There is an incident where Alexios got attacked by many norman knights who drove their lances to him only to see them trapped in his armour and him escaping safe and sound. And its quite logical. He was wearing a kavvadion (basically a gambeson), on top of that a hauberk, on top of that lorikion (lammelar armour with extensions in the form of lammelar skirt or pteryges), on top of that an epilorikion, something between a gambeson and a surcoat. The man was armed as a tank.
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Cheers Captain Harlock, that's an excellent synopsis of the sources & the problems with interpreting them. But yes, the Byzantine armour, at least for the professional soldiers, seems to have been layered & thick indeed. I guess the Alexios example is telling, although we ofcourse are reading a text that could include some degree of propaganda.
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I had always though that some of the Mideavil russian figuers from, for, example Gripping Beast, would work for later Byzantines, perhaps later than you were looking for though.
Jim
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Hey, I hadn't checked GB in detail. Now did a search and found the various Russian sets. Thanks for noticing me! :)
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Actually any russian mini that doesnt have too many mongol inspired elements, could double for eastern Romans. Gripping Beast's minis are right historically for the era you want. But personally I dont like them because they have that old school stumpy cartoonish look. V&V are fantastic but if you want an army you have to break the piggy bank.
Actually my second ever sculpting adventure has an eastern roman theme. Im curious to see where it is going to lead me lol
here is today's wip, still has long way to go
(https://i.postimg.cc/q6n9KpjT/2018-10-19-15-09-28.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/q6n9KpjT) (https://i.postimg.cc/F1Lt8xmB/2018-10-19-15-09-43.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/F1Lt8xmB) (https://i.postimg.cc/wyRPK6Km/2018-10-19-15-10-46.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/wyRPK6Km)
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Actually any russian mini that doesnt have too many mongol inspired elements, could double for eastern Romans. Gripping Beast's minis are right historically for the era you want. But personally I dont like them because they have that old school stumpy cartoonish look. V&V are fantastic but if you want an army you have to break the piggy bank.
My feelings too. Although I'm not sure professional soldiers would use short-sleeved mail hauberks around 1200. But for local mercenaries and levies, the Russians would do finely. Only they have that stumpy look. It doesn't matter in a unit, if they are in the back ranks. For front ranks I'd still want better proportions.
I also hear V&V is more like 30mm, so would force me to use their minis only, at least in a single unit. They are maybe a bit early and a bit light, and V&V do not really have that much choice for Byzantines. Yet I feel it's by far the best-looking range I've come across thus far. Three euros per model, however... is no more than what GW asks for some of their plastic infantry... which I haven't bought... :)
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Maybe come over to the dark side of 15mm. 😊
I’ve got a large range of 15mm 13th century Europeans that keeps lurching closer and closer to release, and when it does I need Byzantine types for the Byzantines themselves as well as Greek “sergeants” in Frankish Greece, Bulgarian and Serbian heavy cavalry, etc.
As they are ancillary to the Frankish range for now, I just had a pack of heavy cavalry and a pack of lower class levy archers made (which ought to do for the Latin Empire and Frankish Greece anyway). Here are the heavy cavalry.
(https://i.imgur.com/81szkVV_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=high)
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Well, those are some excellent 15mm models for sure, and very very fitting to the time & place I'm after.
I think I'm fixed to 28mm. Please, do not tempt me. :)
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Got it. I’m making a 28mm scale late 12th Century European range (eventually — just in the baby-steps phase at the moment) and it’s conceivable that Byzantines could be a part of the range. But not for quite some time.
So: Good luck with your quest!
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I’m making a 28mm scale late 12th Century European range (eventually — just in the baby-steps phase at the moment) and it’s conceivable that Byzantines could be a part of the range. But not for quite some time.
What a tease! lol
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What a tease! lol
Yep, brilliant for the crusades, although they did try to let the Franks do most of the fighting! (And of course, succeeded!!) :)
Darrell