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Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: bazookajoe on October 27, 2018, 04:26:20 AM
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So following a suggestion on the Victrix website, I ordered some of their new Republican Roman cavalry to use as Carthaginian cavalry. My Carthage army also includes some Numidian light cavalry. Here is how a Victrix Republican Roman cavalryman looks next to a Victrix Numidian cavalryman. The Roman looks like an ogre by comparison! The difference in horse size is not too bad but if you compare the riders they are very different. The same difference is there if you compare the Roman rider to Victrix Carthaginian infantry.
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Damn! That's ridiculous.
I am going to take a look at the Victrix Greek Cavalry I have and put them beside my Victrix Iberian cavalry now.
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That's a huge oversight on Victrix part.
Take a look at the infantry I own.
(https://scontent.fyyc2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/44916338_10158263202894466_5741484260926160896_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_ht=scontent.fyyc2-1.fna&oh=762ba91095d8f4907bec4e56d146548c&oe=5C52B592)
Okay, the Roman appears to be bigger, but if you look at the Numidian, he is crouching down. It's more or less not going to be noticeable on the field of battle.
But that rider!!!! Shrek turned Donkey into a stallion, but forgot to turn himself into a human prince!
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The Victrix Rep Roman cavalryman is more akin to a 1/48 scale figure or even larger. It is ridiculous for a manufacturer to have such a huge size variation within its own ancients range. If I compare the cavalryman to my Numidian infantry (the same figure as in Weigraf's picture) the difference is huge. Therefore, the size difference between Victrix Rep. Roman cavalry and Rep Roman infantry (which I don't have but which is pictured above) must also be significant. I don't mind minor variations but this just dumb and a major ripoff for buyers.
Oh, and did I mention that my Victrix order was short a set of shield transfers and no one ever responded to my email about it?
Way to go, Victrix!
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The Victrix Rep Roman cavalryman is more akin to a 1/48 scale figure or even larger. It is ridiculous for a manufacturer to have such a huge size variation within its own ancients range. If I compare the cavalryman to my Numidian infantry (the same figure as in Weigraf's picture) the difference is huge. Therefore, the size difference between Victrix Rep. Roman cavalry and Rep Roman infantry (which I don't have but which is pictured above) must also be significant. I don't mind minor variations but this just dumb and a major ripoff for buyers.
Oh, and did I mention that my Victrix order was short a set of shield transfers and no one ever responded to my email about it?
Way to go, Victrix!
I collect Warlord Games ( Immortal ) Hoplites. If you stick with the Macedon / Persian / Greek state models that were released earlier than 2017, then all the miniatures are for the most part, similar in size. One oversight I think they had was that their recent metal spartan general (and possibly their Sacred Band of Thebes, I have yet to get them) are considerably larger in bulkiness and height compared to their older plastics and metals. And if you venture out into Warlord's Caesarians, however, the scale changes are noticeable despite being all "28 mm " , as with their Gauls as well.
But for infantry, they're all roughly about 28 mm (except their old Imperial Romans, which are quite squat) and it doesn't bother me so much.. but for the Victrix Cavalry, I can see quite the difference.
I agree with you bazookajoe - if it is the same range of ancients and the size is that obvious... come on
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On the back of the information in this post I have done a size check against the Roman Republican cavalry and the Spanish cavalry, Greek light cavalry and Gallic cavalry (I don't own any Numidians) in my collection. However I seem to recall that the numidians rode small, wiry ponies, which could be expected to be considerably small than other cavalry.
The horses from all sets are all of a similar height although the Roman and Gallic horses are slightly wider in the beam to the Spanish and Greek horses mostly due to the way the former two sets have separately cast saddles. However the differences are almost insignificant, especially as one is unlikley to be mixing the sets in the same unit.
The riders, however, are slightly different. The Spanish, Greek and Gallic riders are slightly slimmer and and fractionally smaller than the Roman rider, which is a little bulkier, especially if you add the cloak, which makes it a much chunkier figure. It certainly shows when you put them side by side (No photos available at this time). However the differences are not so noticeable as in the earlier pohoto of Roman and Numidian cavalry.
However as I said before, you are unlikley to be mixing these figures in the same units and once on the table the difference is hardly noticeable. That however is no excuse for the scale creep in Victrix, especially since they are all CAD sculpts.
That said IMHO these are the best figures available for the period, cover the entire range of Punic Wars (with a small matter of Gallic slirmishers) and I for one will not stop buying them.
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On the back of the information in this post I have done a size check against the Roman Republican cavalry and the Spanish cavalry, Greek light cavalry and Gallic cavalry (I don't own any Numidians) in my collection. However I seem to recall that the numidians rode small, wiry ponies, which could be expected to be considerably small than other cavalry.
The horses from all sets are all of a similar height although the Roman and Gallic horses are slightly wider in the beam to the Spanish and Greek horses mostly due to the way the former two sets have separately cast saddles. However the differences are almost insignificant, especially as one is unlikley to be mixing the sets in the same unit.
The riders, however, are slightly different. The Spanish, Greek and Gallic riders are slightly slimmer and and fractionally smaller than the Roman rider, which is a little bulkier, especially if you add the cloak, which makes it a much chunkier figure. It certainly shows when you put them side by side (No photos available at this time). However the differences are not so noticeable as in the earlier pohoto of Roman and Numidian cavalry.
However as I said before, you are unlikley to be mixing these figures in the same units and once on the table the difference is hardly noticeable. That however is no excuse for the scale creep in Victrix, especially since they are all CAD sculpts.
That said IMHO these are the best figures available for the period, cover the entire range of Punic Wars (with a small matter of Gallic slirmishers) and I for one will not stop buying them.
Yes, they are the best and indeed as you said such scale creep / oversights should not happen. Certainly as it is all CAD.
I can only hope that this in the future will not happen anymore. Hopefully their new Dark Age line is more consitent scale wise.
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The Roman cavalry model on the right seems to have thick legs ? Or is it me o_o
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However as I said before, you are unlikley to be mixing these figures in the same units and once on the table the difference is hardly noticeable. That however is no excuse for the scale creep in Victrix, especially since they are all CAD sculpts.
The Size difference is very noticeable on the battlefield, I personally think. If you are using nothing but Victrix you may get away with this. But if you're playing the Punic Wars and you want to field your Numidian cavalry beside your Republican Romans - you are going to see Ogres riding beside numidians!
Perhaps if you did an all Republican Roman Army, with pure native forces and all Victrix infantry. Maybe you'd not notice as much, then.
I did a quick blog post on a whole bunch of comparisons in my collection. There's no way I'd be fielding other types of Cavalry beside the Victrix Giants. If the army is nothing but Victrix Greeks , maybe. But that means your other minis in your collection look a tad silly, even from a distance.
https://steepledhatstudios.blogspot.com/2018/10/victrix-made-shetland-pony-for.html
There's no excuse for them to have such a crazy scale creep - and even if the Numidian cavalry are wiry, which yes - you can see the horses are okay for Victrix size here, it is the horsemen here that are in question. If you're a company making ancients you'd think with the technology they use to make these models they'd have a bit more consistency!
That said IMHO these are the best figures available for the period, cover the entire range of Punic Wars (with a small matter of Gallic slirmishers) and I for one will not stop buying them.
For the infantry I agree with you entirely, Hu Rhu. The Carthaginian box set and Republican Roman infantry box sets are great. I love all the variation in the Republican Roman army. But the scale creep and slightly weird variations between each of Victrix' set on the infantry is not as noticeable as this giant on his donkey.
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The riders, however, are slightly different. The Spanish, Greek and Gallic riders are slightly slimmer and and fractionally smaller than the Roman rider, which is a little bulkier, especially if you add the cloak, which makes it a much chunkier figure. It certainly shows when you put them side by side (No photos available at this time). However the differences are not so noticeable as in the earlier pohoto of Roman and Numidian cavalry.
There is more than a "slight" difference in the riders. The Numidian is like a hobbit and the Roman is like a GW orc. The cloak has nothing to do with it.
I am usually not very fussy about small size differences in figures and I agree that it does not matter much when they are in different units. However, this variation here is too much especially from the same manufacturer and range. I don't such wide variation with Perry plastics so I think consistency is possible.
This will make me hesitate to buy certain products from Victrix again. I think the infantry figures are usually good in this regard but they seem to have a problem with cavalry. I was thinking of going for their Celts but I won't do that now for this reason.
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Put the Celtic cavalry from Victrix next to Warlords... yikes.
But that I can accept since they are different manufacturers. The thing I can’t understand is why Victrix is going more heroic 28mm
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Put the Celtic cavalry from Victrix next to Warlords... yikes.
But that I can accept since they are different manufacturers. The thing I can’t understand is why Victrix is going more heroic 28mm
I don't mind heroic scale, also I don't really care how they look size wise compared with other companies / competion. So if they look bigger than other companies. It's not a problem. I even prefer it.
The only problem I have is the scale creep between a range of the same company. I don't care if Victrix Ancient Greeks are smaller than their Early Imperial Romans. So long that everything released for that range is the same. So if all the Celts and Imperial Romans are the same scale wise than there is no problem at all.
The scale increase is probably to don't make it so easy to use different company miniatures with Victrix mini's. Which is no problem solong Victrix provides an extensive range.
I will look at it at Crisis.
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The scale increase is probably to don't make it so easy to use different company miniatures with Victrix mini's. Which is no problem solong Victrix provides an extensive range.
Aye I could see that. But the riders between their own numidian and Roman are not the same. They look ridiculous side by side.
That and one thing I’ve liked about historical wargaming is the openness to using all sorts of minis from all sorts of companies. If Victrix wants to make their cavalry match their infantry with a GW store can only use our models exclusive kind of mindset ,okay. But it’s clearly going beyond that and even making stuff bigger than their own so that it isn’t really matching.
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The only cav I have from Victrix are Gauls and they tower above all my other 28mm manufacturers ancients. So I ordered a bunch of A&A Gallic cav to go with my Victrix foot.
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Are the Victrix Gaul cavalry significantly larger than Victrix Gaul infantry?
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This issue isn’t the end of the world. Luckily Roman armies don’t need much in the way of cavalry anyway. A sensibly sized army will include 2 or 3 units at most. If you want more then you are going to be looking at allied Numidians, Greeks or Spanish. For just a few units the price difference with metals will make less of a difference. There are plenty of choices in 28mm metal Romans that will work well with Victrix infantry. As usual it is a case of looking at all the options and not getting hysterical about what is and isn’t possible to get in plastic.
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Good question. Didn't have an easy way to compare so went and built up a couple. It looks like the riders are larger than the guys on foot. It's a bit hard to tell because the riders are seated. The riders are certainly bulkier, but they are all wearing mail. The horses are really big.
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Are the Victrix Gaul cavalry significantly larger than Victrix Gaul infantry?
No the Gallic cavalry fit in well with the foot figures.
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This issue isn’t the end of the world. Luckily Roman armies don’t need much in the way of cavalry anyway. A sensibly sized army will include 2 or 3 units at most. If you want more then you are going to be looking at allied Numidians, Greeks or Spanish. For just a few units the price difference with metals will make less of a difference. There are plenty of choices in 28mm metal Romans that will work well with Victrix infantry. As usual it is a case of looking at all the options and not getting hysterical about what is and isn’t possible to get in plastic.
No, not the end of the world. Personally I always felt Roman Cavalry were not that great at their jobs so I've always gone for Celtic or Numidian cavalry for the bulk of my collection. But if you like collecting miniatures from multiple company's like I do, it seems Victrix is creeping off into their own world of beyond 28mm historical.
As I have said, I love the Infantry Victrix makes.. but I think I'll avoid their Cavalry. Curious to see if their dark age infantry creeps up along with their oversized cavalry.
Are the Victrix Gaul cavalry significantly larger than Victrix Gaul infantry?
No the Gallic cavalry fit in well with the foot figures.
My blog has a few shots of the Victrix Cavalry from both Republican and Gallic sets. I don't have any Victrix celtic infantry since I want to stick with Warlord's, but the cavalry from the previously mentioned two sets are of the same ilk- quite big.
If you do exclusively Victrix miniatures in your army there will be no issue. Don't bring in any Warlord Gauls or Warlord Gallic cavalry alongside Victrix if the oversize worries you! Otherwise, Victrix still makes great models with good details. Just have to be careful if the size differences bothers you.
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As I have said, I love the Infantry Victrix makes.. but I think I'll avoid their Cavalry. Curious to see if their dark age infantry creeps up along with their oversized cavalry.
Should certainly show us if this is a policy or just a cock up....
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Do they have the same issues with their Macedonian or Greek cavalry or is this just an outlier?
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Do they have the same issues with their Macedonian or Greek cavalry or is this just an outlier?
Their greek light cavalry match the other cavalry and fit well with their foot. I don't own any of the heavy cavalry to check.
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The Greek heavy cavalry I own do not seem to have a Shetland pony . The proportions from horse to rider are a bit better.
They are however also huge compared to the numidian cavalry
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The last thing I want to be in controversial but how large a people were the ancient Numidians? There are often stark differences between peoples even today. I've spent quite a bit of time working in Asia Minor and South East Asia and the Pacific and the averages in size between peoples is significant and rather obvious.
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No, not the end of the world. Personally I always felt Roman Cavalry were not that great at their jobs
For goodness sake, don't say that to Maximus Decimus Meridius, Commander of the Armies of the North
.....because he just might chop your bollocks off :o
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The last thing I want to be in controversial but how large a people were the ancient Numidians? There are often stark differences between peoples even today. I've spent quite a bit of time working in Asia Minor and South East Asia and the Pacific and the averages in size between peoples is significant and rather obvious.
Well, they were Berbers, just like the people who live in Algeria & Tunisia now. Average height for modern North Africans is 1.72m, compared with 1.77m in the UK
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Victrix mentioned this post on their FB site in some comments on their new EIR cavalry (which look spectacular by the way). The comment is that the Numidians are the size they are by design rather than scale creep, so whether or not you agree with the premise that they were small and rode ponies, if you buy their comment it’s not a quality control issue at least.
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I'm not concerned that the Numidians are small, it's that the other cav is just too big. If all the cav is the same size as the Gallic cav (the only Victrix cav I have), I'll not be getting any of it. It towers above the rest of ancients I own - and are extremely wide too. The infantry are not that way - they are taller than some of the other mfrrs I have, but they look like they are the same scale. The cav looks like it's in a different scale.....
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Wouldn’t be the first time a manufacturer did a custom scale so you’re forced to buy their minis and theirs alone. It’s better business for them if you buy only their manufacture.
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The last thing I want to be in controversial but how large a people were the ancient Numidians?
The Numidians mounted their horses and began to ride towards the enemy's outposts without showing any aggressiveness. Nothing could at first sight look more contemptible than the appearance they presented; horses and men were alike thin and diminutive...
So they should probably be a bit smaller than the Romans - maybe not quite this much, though.
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Well, they were Berbers, just like the people who live in Algeria & Tunisia now. Average height for modern North Africans is 1.72m, compared with 1.77m in the UK
So they should probably be a bit smaller than the Romans - maybe not quite this much, though.
Didn't the UK go through the earliest growth spurts thanks to the industrialisation and animal husbandry? Not sure if that's accurate but that's what I learnt in High school history, anyways.
Humans come in all sorts of shapes and sizes, this is true. But a whole unit of dwarves next to a unit full of ogres looks quite fantasy like. Not to say that that could not happen. If you found a certain group of people that are small and put them alongside a group of people that are naturally taller, you'd notice.
But in the miniature world there's just something screwy looking about it . . . especially since that horse is so tiny looking under the Roman! I guess some of us except a bit of conformity , or close to conformity when we collect minis.
Wouldn’t be the first time a manufacturer did a custom scale so you’re forced to buy their minis and theirs alone. It’s better business for them if you buy only their manufacture.
True to that - though I think the screw up is more so their numidian is weird compare to the rest of the cavalrymen...
I'm not concerned that the Numidians are small, it's that the other cav is just too big. If all the cav is the same size as the Gallic cav (the only Victrix cav I have), I'll not be getting any of it. It towers above the rest of ancients I own - and are extremely wide too. The infantry are not that way - they are taller than some of the other mfrrs I have, but they look like they are the same scale. The cav looks like it's in a different scale.....
Same. I have the Greek and Iberian Cavalry from Victrix and I think I'll be throwing them on eBay. To my eyes they don't match alongside even Victrix's own infantry. Too tall, too wide, and the riders are bigger than the infantry. I've put the rider's heads and bodies next to the foot infantry and they're slightly bigger... just creeping out of 28mm! Victrix has mentioned that they built their horses "Small" but honestly, they look more like chargers from the medieval times to me. I even think Wargames Factory did their celt horses better for height and sizes, and those are some pretty wonky looking ponies!
Victrix mentioned this post on their FB site in some comments on their new EIR cavalry (which look spectacular by the way). The comment is that the Numidians are the size they are by design rather than scale creep, so whether or not you agree with the premise that they were small and rode ponies, if you buy their comment it’s not a quality control issue at least
Ah, not sure if I buy it. Which cavalry set was made first.. Iberians or Numidians?
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I am also skeptical about the claim that the Victrix Numidian cavalry were purposefully designed to be that much smaller than other types of ancient cavalry. If you compare the Numidian and the Roman rider, (see picture at the start of this thread) they look very different in size. I doubt that the historic Numidians were 3 or 4 feet tall. To me, the issue seems to be more with the riders than the horses. Something is off here.
It looks like Victrix ancient cavalry figures have been gradually increasing in size and have now reached the point where they are outlandishly large compared to some of their other ancient figures, particularly the infantry which I really like. The Numidian cavalry are small (that's fine), the Spanish cavalry are somewhat larger (that's OK too) but the new Republican Romans cavalry have grown too large.
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I am also skeptical about the claim that the Victrix Numidian cavalry were purposefully designed to be that much smaller than other types of ancient cavalry. If you compare the Numidian and the Roman rider, (see picture at the start of this thread) they look very different in size. I doubt that the historic Numidians were 3 or 4 feet tall. To me, the issue seems to be more with the riders than the horses. Something is off here.
It looks like Victrix ancient cavalry figures have been gradually increasing in size and have now reached the point where they are outlandishly large compared to some of their other ancient figures, particularly the infantry which I really like. The Numidian cavalry are small (that's fine), the Spanish cavalry are somewhat larger (that's OK too) but the new Republican Romans cavalry have grown too large.
Ah, that's progress for you. The more civilised nations have a better nutrition and healthcare schemes so people grow bigger :D
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The argument that it was done on purpose doesn't exactly hold up if it's not also true for the respective infantry versions. Unless the Numidian cavalry consisted only of children.
Wouldn’t be the first time a manufacturer did a custom scale so you’re forced to buy their minis and theirs alone. It’s better business for them if you buy only their manufacture.
Unless it results in not purchasing their incompatible products at all...
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Ah, that's progress for you. The more civilised nations have a better nutrition and healthcare schemes so people grow bigger
That doesn't make much sense. Gauls and Germans were not "civilised" and the Greeks and Romans stereotype about the Celts is that they were always taller than most Romans or Greeks!
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I think the comment about growing was a joke.
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I think the comment about growing was a joke.
Oh boy. I see it now. Feel silly for not even catching the wording hahaha