Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Topic started by: Commander Carnage on November 13, 2018, 04:38:41 PM
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Any ideas on what minis would work well for Dunlendings, scale wise with the current GW stuff? I like the GW stuff but the poses are limited and they are hard to find in number.
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You could look at Warlord Games ancient Germans,they may fit the bill,lots of furs and hair,should match size wise :)
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Frostgrave Barbarians
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Dunlendings, or Wild Men of Dunland?
For Dunlendings, they are very much like historical Viking miniatures with a little more wear & tear than normal, so I think Victrix's upcoming plastic Vikings would probably look great starting point. Black Tree Design armored Vikings and Saxons would probably also be good options.
For Wild Men, the aforementioned ancient Germans are good for the reasons laid out already, although a lot of GW's minis wear kilts and sashes, so maybe Ebob's highlanders with greenstuffed furs? Dark ages Scots/Irish ranges might also be a good place to look.
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MERP describes a very Celtic looking Dunland, and Celts is what I'll be using.
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I plan to use other figures for my Dunlendings also, and it should be quite easy to as the Perry scuplted LOTR stuff has quite realistic
proportions like a lot of Histroical ranges.
I am going to use a mix of the following:
https://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/franks-and-saxons (https://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/franks-and-saxons)
http://www.eurekamin.com.au/index.php?cPath=87_126_142&sort=3a (http://www.eurekamin.com.au/index.php?cPath=87_126_142&sort=3a)
https://footsoreminiatures.co.uk/ (https://footsoreminiatures.co.uk/)
Some of the Eureka and Footsore stuff will work well for Rohirrim aswell.
Hope this helps.
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MERP describes a very Celtic looking Dunland, and Celts is what I'll be using.
The Rohirrim are called "strawheads" by the Dunlendings and are often said to be like the Saxons. So if the Rohirrim are blond north German-types, I would think of the Dunlendings being pre-Anglo-Saxon Brythonic peoples. So Celts may be fine. I also wonder about Picts. It has been ages since I have read LotR, so I could be wrong, but I think it unlikely that Dunlendings wore much armour.
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I realise there is another aspect to your question - one relating to size compatibility. The GW figures are much smaller/finer. Would older, smaller 28mm and 25mm work better?
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Foundry Bronze age Europeans:
https://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/european-bronze-age-scandanavia-north-west-europe-1600-bc
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The Rohirrim are called "strawheads" by the Dunlendings and are often said to be like the Saxons. So if the Rohirrim are blond north German-types, I would think of the Dunlendings being pre-Anglo-Saxon Brythonic peoples. So Celts may be fine. I also wonder about Picts. It has been ages since I have read LotR, so I could be wrong, but I think it unlikely that Dunlendings wore much armour.
The Unfinished Tales has a description of the Battle at the Fords of Isen between Rohan and Isengard, and in it it mentions that the Dunlendings are the only ones tall enough to threaten the Rohan shieldwall, but that Rohan still had the advantage as the Dunlendings weren’t armoured due to the Orc armour not fitting them. So unarmoured for the most part would be right :)
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The Unfinished Tales has a description of the Battle at the Fords of Isen between Rohan and Isengard, and in it it mentions that the Dunlendings are the only ones tall enough to threaten the Rohan shieldwall, but that Rohan still had the advantage as the Dunlendings weren’t armoured due to the Orc armour not fitting them. So unarmoured for the most part would be right :)
Going slightly off topic. Who was armed with pikes at that battle? Orcs or Dunlendings?
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Early in the First Battle of the Fords of Isen Theodred made an attack on the western forces of Saruman, hoping to catch them on the march. Instead he came across stiff resistance. "The enemy was in fact in positions prepared for the event, behind trenches manned by pikemen...."
I think if these pike armed troops were orcs he would have used different language. So it seems, unlike the movies, the pike armed troops were men.
Of more interest are the troops that later attacked Theodred on the eyot.
"......there appeared a company of men or orcmen (evidently dispatched for the purpose), ferocious, mail-clad, and armed with axes".
"... he saw the axe-men driving Theodred's men from the shore of the eyot...".
So here we have the term axe-men used for a group that man be men or orcmen. Does this mean the pikemen could also be orcmen?
Later it is written, "As he came to his side Theodred fell, hewn down by a great orc-man".
So there could be some interesting troop types. Heavily armoured orcmen with axes, pike armed troops - either men or orcmen, orcs, bigger Uruks, and Dunlendings. There is also mention of Dunlendish hillmen. Possibly the hillmen are armed differently form the other Dunlendings?
I think the pikemen were used for a very specific situation and that these troops may not have been properly trained in the use of these weapons (only being used in prepared defensive positions). There is no further mention of them. I would have them as unarmoured, possibly not the pick of Saruman's troops, and unable to maneouvre properly.
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I like eBob Scotts from the Rebellion range for Dunlendings, their height is pretty much spot on. They'd fit right in with the few GW Dunlending rebels I have, kilts and all. Maybe a few weapon swaps etc.?
(http://www.ebobminiatures.com/uploads/1/0/6/8/10684023/clansmen_1_orig.jpg)
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How about Mithril's dunlending range?
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If I was to represent the pikemen I’d go unarmoured hillmen types with a spear thrust in the hands and ordered to stand in line behind the trenches by some chieftain type or Orc overseer. I like the look of these Romano British spearman from Gripping Beast for that purpose.
https://www.grippingbeast.co.uk/ABR09_British_Spearmen_4--product--3120.html
https://www.grippingbeast.co.uk/ABR10_British_Spearmen_Thrusting_4--product--3121.html
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I think if these pike armed troops were orcs he would have used different language. So it seems, unlike the movies, the pike armed troops were men.
Yes, that seems right. The default assumption has to be that they're Men, given that they're "-men". (Yes, I know Tolkien talks about a "goblin swordsman" in The Hobbit, but the modifier's surely the key thing there).
Of more interest are the troops that later attacked Theodred on the eyot.
"......there appeared a company of men or orcmen (evidently dispatched for the purpose), ferocious, mail-clad, and armed with axes".
"... he saw the axe-men driving Theodred's men from the shore of the eyot...".
So here we have the term axe-men used for a group that man be men or orcmen.
I don't think there's really any doubt that they're half-orcs. Compare this with the description of the "Men" in 'Flotsam and Jetsam". Most were "ordinary Men" but "some were horrible, with goblin-faces".
Does this mean the pikemen could also be orcmen?
I don't think so. Given how Tolkien introduces the half-orc axemen, why wouldn't he describe the pikemen thus too?
Later it is written, "As he came to his side Theodred fell, hewn down by a great orc-man".
That supports the point above: there's no real doubt that the axe-men are some sort of grisly hybrid.
So there could be some interesting troop types. Heavily armoured orcmen with axes, pike armed troops - either men or orcmen, orcs, bigger Uruks, and Dunlendings. There is also mention of Dunlendish hillmen. Possibly the hillmen are armed differently form the other Dunlendings?
Aren't all Dunlendings hillmen? From memory, I think that's how they're described at Helm's Deep. Also, I don't think there's any evidence for there being non-Uruk orcs involved. This text is very much a companion piece to LotR, where Tolkien almost always describes the Isengard Uruk-hai simply as "orcs". We do get a close-up of "fierce Uruks" during the battle, but I don't think there's any suggestion that the other orcs weren't Uruks too. Remember, the Uruk-hai were sufficiently shorter than the Dunlendings for Gimli to much prefer fighting the former.
Again, see 'Flotsam and Jetsam': the only size distinction made between Saruman's orcish folk seems to be between the "Orcs" ("We are the fighting Uruk-hai") and the "horrible" Men ("man-high but with goblin faces").
I think the pikemen were used for a very specific situation and that these troops may not have been properly trained in the use of these weapons (only being used in prepared defensive positions). There is no further mention of them. I would have them as unarmoured, possibly not the pick of Saruman's troops, and unable to maneouvre properly.
I doubt Tolkien was using "pike" terribly specifically. I'd read "pikemen" here just as "infantry with (longish) spears", not as something like a phalanx or a Swiss pike formation!
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My thoughts on the dunlendings would be that they’re mostly inspired by the Picts and scotti. Especially if you take the position that the fall of Rome and the early dark ages are the general inspiration for tolkein’s Middle earth. I plan on using Picts, and Irish minis from footsore. I would say foundry or warlord would probably be the best fit for the gw lotr guys
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For armoured Dunlendings I use Crusader's Varangians, while normal infantry here are Irish axemen.
I wanted to use Crusader's Scots too, but while very nice miniatures they're taller.
I'll use C's Norman axemen (not shown below) as goblinmen. The Normans are chunkier sculpts compared to the varangians and of course beardless so it works as orcish bastard men if I give them round shields.
The mail shirts and axes are almost the same so it looks all armament comes from Sarumans workshops
The differences in detail like helmets and greave leg protection are because the dunlendings have their tribe's traditional higher helmets while the goblinmen have crude spangenhelms. Again looking crude also because of the sculpting style. I could use Normans of other brands like Perry or Footsore as Gondor or even elves.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-V2IiWzf82rk/WuzPUnH5WAI/AAAAAAAAAzw/cq7n7rtoNcUOJdQDhFm9EwXGl2yo2j6VQCEwYBhgL/s1600/dunlendings.jpg)
I'm using Grenadier half-orcs as uruk hai and they have the same greaves as the Varangians and particular oval dome shields. Because of that some Varangians have late roman oval shields on their backs while the leaders have press-moulded uruk hai shields.
I believe 'Hillmen' was a generic term for any wild tribes not descending form Númenóreans and dunlendings are one particular people of hillmen.
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I like the E-Bob Scots as Dunlendings. I was giving some thought to size compatibility of figures with GW and did wonder about these.
I like the British spearmen for the pikemen - just the right look - riff-raff with long pointed sticks. I agree with the mighty Hobgoblin, these were not true pike soldiers, but a levy with long spears and, as I mentioned, I think used once for a very specific task.
Finding appropriate orcs with large axes and heavy armour that also fit the Tolkien aesthetic may be harder to find and may need some conversions. The Mirliton half orcs with weapon swaps may be an option. Hobgoblin, how big are these figures compared to the GW Rohirrim?
One thing that struck me reading about the battles again is the organisation and battlefield control of the forces of Saruman.
There seems to be good discipline and good coordination of forces. Not what one typically thinks of for an orc army. The battle plan of the Isengarders is superior to that of the Rohirrim. In particular, did they just anticipate what Theodred would do or was there help from the Palantir?
There is also the issue of who actually commanded this army. There is the usual fantasy wargame trope that orcs need someone strong (often a non-orc) to keep them in hand - Sauron had his Nazgul, Morgoth had Balrogs. Yes, there are leaders of bands of orcs, but for a whole army? We have the examples of the Great Goblin and Azog elsewhere in Tolkien's works, and I think Saruman would rather trust a powerful orc as his general rather than a Dunlending. For my own wargaming purposes I think I will lean towards a few super orcs bred to command armies. In the First Age there could also be the possibility of less powerful fallen Maiar inhabiting orc bodies, much in the same way that some took on wolf forms to be werewolves.
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Another possibility for the pikemen?
http://www.northstarfigures.com/prod.php?prod=880
and standard Dunlendings?
http://www.northstarfigures.com/prod.php?prod=878
These certainly aren't too chunky, but are they still too tall?
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Pondered on the same issue of Isengard's command structure some time ago. (Wargaming Middle-earth enthusiasts are a strange breed indeed.)
We know that two smaller companies were led by Uruk-hai - Uglúk and Mauhúr. Uglúk seems to have both the loyalty and intelligence required to make some of his type into capable commanders. That said, the Hobbits mention that "Saruman kept enough wisdom not to trust his Orcs." In addition to which I am unsure to what extent the Dunlendings would have followed an orc into battle in the first place. With Saruman probably planning most in advance, with detailed knowledge of Rohan, perhaps that is all that really matters? With limited communication methods as would be available in historical ancient and medieval warfare, any strategy would largely rely on the initial plan (Saruman's) and the ability of lower-level commanders to carry it out, improvising where necessary, and commanding as many orcs/men as you can realistically influence on the battlefield. The orcs may simply be led by orcs, the men by their own Dunlending chieftains, with no single overall general present?
Note also that two slightly distinct groups of Dunlendings seem to exist: "Saruman has armed the wild hillmen and herd-folk of Dunland beyond the rivers, and these also he loosed upon us."
As for the aesthetics, I do also favour the more Celtic look of e.g. Dark Age Irish or Scots. In part of the historical allusions, with Rohan as the Saxons and the Dunlendings as the Celtic Britons, in part simply because they look more interesting than the very Norse look GW went for (on the armoured Dunlendings that is, the wild men have those sashes that actually give them exactly that Celtic vibe). Some of the historical ranges can be a bit chunky for use with the Middle-earth range, but Footsore fits the scale of the Perry sculpts very well I think.
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In some ancient MERP rpg modules it was stated that the hill-men were related to dunlendings in the same way as dunlendings were related to the people who became the dead men of Dunharrow. In the ancient past all had been the same people but by the war of the ring they had evolved into different peoples who could barely understand each other's language (in the same way celts in the british isles evolved into different peoples/languages). In the MERP books the hill-men lived in the high lands of Rhudaur, meanwhile the dunlendings lived in Dunland (and they had lived in the Brown Lands prior to that).
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I like the E-Bob Scots as Dunlendings. I was giving some thought to size compatibility of figures with GW and did wonder about these.
As I wrote earlier (ahem), they're pretty good size-wise, on the small side of 28mm. I got a few, so I could take a comparison shot with GW stuff?
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As I wrote earlier (ahem), they're pretty good size-wise, on the small side of 28mm. I got a few, so I could take a comparison shot with GW stuff?
Sorry, you did too. I was far too impressed by the wee figures to actually read the post properly :-X
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Thanks for all the well thought out replies.
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I'd take a look at the Wargame Factory Picts. They were done by the perry Brothers, who I belive did a lot of the early LOTR figures.
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I think Unreleased Miniatures do some figures that will mix with GW dunlendings.
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Ebobs sculpts are super small even for lotr. Too small for me to use. I sold them because of it.