Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Conflicts that came in from the Cold => Topic started by: Jemima Fawr on November 24, 2018, 09:24:10 PM
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Some more 1980s Cloggies from me this week: Some M113 C&V 25 recce vehicles, a YPR-765 conversion and the first of the infantry:
http://www.jemimafawr.co.uk/2018/11/24/going-dutch-building-a-cold-war-dutch-battlegroup-part-2/
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/8789/HYaIwd.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/4506/EYsK84.jpg)
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Nice Lynx!
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Interesting read, and an army I never really thought about.
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Cheers chaps! It's not a Lynx though - while mechanically identical, the Dutch M113 C&V had a completely different crew and hatch layout and they didn't give it a snappy name. :(
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Cheers chaps! It's not a Lynx though - while mechanically identical, the Dutch M113 C&V had a completely different crew and hatch layout and they didn't give it a snappy name. :(
Thanks for that - looks very much like a Canadian Lynx with the addition of the up-gunned turret.
That being said, google search of M113 C&V makes reference to it being called Lynx. Hmmm.
Eg
http://theplasticsoldiercompany.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1781
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Thanks for that - looks very much like a Canadian Lynx with the addition of the up-gunned turret.
That being said, google search of M113 C&V makes reference to it being called Lynx. Hmmm.
Eg
http://theplasticsoldiercompany.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1781
Yeah it's the same vehicle underneath it all. :)
The Dutch M113 C&V was produced first - the original version had the M26 cupola and .50 Cal, just like the Canadian Lynx. However, the commander's position was at the front-right and the cupola was in the centre of the vehicle. There was also a 'gull-wing' door on the right-hand side of the hull on the Dutch version.
The Canadian M113 C&R was produced a couple of years later and they then called it the Lynx. The Canadian version moved the commander to the rear-left of the vehicle (i.e. behind the driver) and shifted the cupola forward and to the right. The Canadian version also didn't have the door on the side of the hull.
In 1974 the Dutch replaced the M26 cupola with a bespoke turret mounting an Oerlikon 25mm cannon and named it M113 C&V 25.
The 'Lynx' name does pop up on websites etc, presumably due to the very close similarity of the vehicles, but to the best of my knowledge the Dutch Army didn't use the name. I guess that had the Canadian version been produced first, they might have both been called Lynx (oddly enough, the Dutch word for Lynx is 'Lynx' :) ).
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Haha!
I was an armoured recce officer (reserve) right after the Lynx left service in the early 90s; the military museum I volunteer at has a lovely UN painted Lynx in the vehicle park.
We Canadians name all our vehicles - Lynx, Coyote, Cougar, etc.
Interesting that the Dutch modified it.
I normally game moderns using GHQ, who unfortunately only make the M114; luckily C&C makes a very nice Lynx - the Canadian one.
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The Lynx is my favourite AFV... :-*
I badgered my mate Martin to make a model of one, so that QRF would produce it. :D
The Humber LRC comes a close second... Some would say that I have very strange tastes and a strange concept of the word 'armoured'... ;)
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The Lynx is my favourite AFV... :-*
I badgered my mate Martin to make a model of one, so that QRF would produce it. :D
The Humber LRC comes a close second... Some would say that I have very strange tastes and a strange concept of the word 'armoured'... ;)
When I went off to Gagetown, the tank guys (and ladies, as of about a year before I joined!), all drove big ass trucks, SUVs; all the recce folk drove small, fast cars. The mentality carried through.
I got to train on the ubiquitous ILTIS, the Volkswagen Rabbit on steroids. Funny thing, the German ones had solid floor pans to allow fording, the Canadian Bombardier built ones had plugs in the pan which allowed snow etc to drain but also water to come up during fording.
Totally get the “armoured” concept. Recce was fun though! And a black hat was a black hat. ;)
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Been a while since I last sat in the commanders seat of a C&V 25mm. And no, our Dutch army never called it a Lynx.
Feel free to break up the jute helmet covers with streaks of green paint, some units did that. or glue on a lot of dead grass but I can imagine at 15mm that would be a chore. Also, skip painting the front bit of the FAL in brown, 95% of the ones I've seen had the same colour as the rest of the gun, rarely the buttstock in wood, like a number of Uzi's. And even those are ok to be painted the same as the rest of the rifle. (just checked, after 1980 the conscripts got new FAL's with all black plastic parts replacing the wooden parts)
Care top share the paint for the uniform? I still have a 40 of so Van Heutsz to paint to fight my Spetsnaz > Never mind, went over your Blog (y)
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Been a while since I last sat in the commanders seat of a C&V 25mm. And no, our Dutch army never called it a Lynx.
Feel free to break up the jute helmet covers with streaks of green paint, some units did that. or glue on a lot of dead grass but I can imagine at 15mm that would be a chore. Also, skip painting the front bit of the FAL in brown, 95% of the ones I've seen had the same colour as the rest of the gun, rarely the buttstock in wood, like a number of Uzi's. And even those are ok to be painted the same as the rest of the rifle. (just checked, after 1980 the conscripts got new FAL's with all black plastic parts replacing the wooden parts)
Care top share the paint for the uniform? I still have a 40 of so Van Heutsz to paint to fight my Spetsnaz > Never mind, went over your Blog (y)
Cheers Gunbird!
Damn, damn, damn, damn... Every last photo I've found of Dutch troops shows 'woody' FNs! >:(
Ah well, never mind, it'll differentiate them from the Belgians (when I do them)...
This project is also conforming to my old theory of "If you don't know the answer, paint something deliberately wrong and wait for someone to correct you and give you the answer..." ;)
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Well, wood isn't wrong per se....so don't worry about it too much :) If the ball would drop everything would be dragged from the armouries, right down to the Brens and quad 50s of WW2 vintage.
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Well, wood isn't wrong per se....so don't worry about it too much :) If the ball would drop everything would be dragged from the armouries, right down to the Brens and quad 50s of WW2 vintage.
I was in the RAF from 1989 and we still had the odd 'woody' in the armoury even then.
I saw a quad 50 being towed past me in Roermond, circa 1989! To say my jaw dropped was an understatement... :) I also saw a Firefly turret-bunker somewhere around there, but I'd already heard about those.
Yes, I SO want some figures in US helmets with Brens and Super-Bazookas for Dutch militia (and Danes and probably a few others) :)
Also Bren-gunners in US helmets and shorts with long puttees for WW2 Chinese...
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Nationale Reserve called up for rear area security.....Brens and Garands galore. Quad 50.s for bridges and other places. IIRC the MOB (Mobilisation) Complex in Helmond still had a warehouse full of the things (and many, many other 50's and 60's stuff, plus an ammo dump) we decided to shut them down in the late ninieties. They only fully demolished it 8 years ago.
Not sure about Super Bazookas though.
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British museums suddenly sprouted Bren tripods when the Dutch sold off their stocks in the 1990s! :)
According to Hans here, there were still some M20 Super-Bazookas knocking around in the National Reserve: https://www.orbat85.nl/
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Dutch Light Infantry squad leader in the nineties myself (regiment Menno van Coehoorn, and later Van Heutz).
We had a mix of FALs with wooden and plastic stocks, and foregrips were mostly dark plastic, with a few black metal ones as well (those were very impopular, because they got friggin' hot when fired for even a short while lol ).
The wooden stocks were also very, very dark, nearly black in some cases, because we used to rub gun oil into them.
As for UZI's; I only ever handled and saw the folding metal stock versions.
Can't comment on the uniforms too much though; we already had the woodland camo (but still the metal pot helmets). But carried over from the times before, a lot of different types of helmet camo was used; mostly netting, burlap and of course foliage.
We also had a practice of having a small piece of netting or burlap hanging over the front of the helmet (stuck under the elastic helmet cover band) just over the eyes, to prevent showing the dark shadow under the helmet rim when down in cover. Non-regulation, obviously, but in the field, everything is fair game :D
I believe that practice was also carried over from the times when uniforms were a single colour.
I'm slowly working on my own Team Yankee Dutch force myself, and was surprised at how few changes there were in equipment and vehicles between '85 and '95, apart from some older wheeled vehicles being phased out and the uniforms changing from drab olive to woodland camo...
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Cheers Daeothar,
Black METAL stocks?! :o As you say, that must have got flippin' hot! I only ever carried a plastic one.
I think you'll agree with me that the mark of a true God among Men is to have carried an FAL/SLR and worn DPM/Woodland camo... ;)
(of course I went one step further by adding an RAF beret...) lol
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Cheers Daeothar,
Black METAL stocks?! :o As you say, that must have got flippin' hot! I only ever carried a plastic one.
I think you'll agree with me that the mark of a true God among Men is to have carried an FAL/SLR and worn DPM/Woodland camo... ;)
(of course I went one step further by adding an RAF beret...) lol
They were metal foregrips, not stocks (luckily). They were thinner and lighter than the plastic ones, being just stamped sheet metal, but they were annoying for a number of reasons: they never closed perfectly, so they often rattled slightly. They got scalding hot after firing even a single magazine in a short time, and tape would not stick to them, as they always had to be slightly oily to prevent rust. And in freezing conditions, they were extremely uncomfortable to handle... ::)
I ended up being a basic training instructor, so I then got to handle a LOT of rifles, pistols and SMGs during shooting instructions. My personal rifle luckily had a (near black) wooden stock and plastic foregrip (and actually shot straight too...).
And I couldn't agree more; FAL and woodland camo FTW :D
I can't top your RAF beret, but when not in the field, I did wear an olive green one with a bright red and shining gold regimental logo... lol
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Okay, noob question, with the FN SLR, did you sling the rifle muzzle up or down while doing other things?
I am retro fitting an SLR to a pistol wielding figure and was not sure which way up to sling it.
Thanks in advance, and sorry for borrowing your thread.
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Okay, noob question, with the FN SLR, did you sling the rifle muzzle up or down while doing other things?
I am retro fitting an SLR to a pistol wielding figure and was not sure which way up to sling it.
Thanks in advance, and sorry for borrowing your thread.
From my limited experience (my normal personal weapon was an SMG - we only had SLRs during training), we'd sling them muzzle-up. The sling-swivels are at the bottom corner of the butt and directly below the gas-regulator. If you slung it upside-down, you'd have the (very long) muzzle poking you in the back of the leg, or sticking in the ground when you kneel down, which wouldn't be good.
Daeothar's the infantryman though, so he'd be the expert.
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Well, there is something to say about that. :)
We used the sling, with the rifle barrel down. However, we did not use the sling attachments on the buttstock, but rather, we tied the sling around the buttstock at the narrowest point, just behind the pistol grip. This allows for a rapid shouldering of the rifle, and the long barrel does not poke you in the back of the knee.
It was called the Lebanon Sling, as apparently it was used there first by the Dutch UN battallion in the early eighties.
The front sling attachment was also often taped in, to prevent any jingling sounds in tactical situations. Both of these practices were only used in the field though, as the official, parade ground way was still the sling attachments.
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Thank you very much, that is very useful.
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Well, there is something to say about that. :)
We used the sling, with the rifle barrel down. However, we did not use the sling attachments on the buttstock, but rather, we tied the sling around the buttstock at the narrowest point, just behind the pistol grip. This allows for a rapid shouldering of the rifle, and the long barrel does not poke you in the back of the knee.
It was called the Lebanon Sling, as apparently it was used there first by the Dutch UN battallion in the early eighties.
The front sling attachment was also often taped in, to prevent any jingling sounds in tactical situations. Both of these practices were only used in the field though, as the official, parade ground way was still the sling attachments.
Excellent! That makes perfect sense... Which is why us officers didn't think of it... :D
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Hey, you know us NCO's usually had a thing or two to say about (2nd) Lieutenants... ;) lol
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I had a 'Stormtrooper Blaster' and hit about as much with it as the Emperor's Finest...
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Hey, you know us NCO's usually had a thing or two to say about (2nd) Lieutenants... ;) lol
I'll have you know that it was a man's life in the Women's Auxiliary Balloon Corps!
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I had a 'Stormtrooper Blaster' and hit about as much with it as the Emperor's Finest...
Star Wars is accurate!
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Star Wars is accurate!
Absolutely! Except that the Emperor's boys only got five-round mags. We got thirty-round mags with which to completely miss the target.
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I've added some more Leopards and an M113:
http://www.jemimafawr.co.uk/2019/04/29/going-dutch-building-a-cold-war-dutch-battlegroup-part-3/
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/921/oKDvNp.jpg)
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Lovely, always nice to see the army of my childhood pass by. And you needn't worry about the Engineers beret: https://www.militarycollectibles4u.nl/a-53625803/baretten/kl-baret-genie-1975-maat-62-origineel-henca-bv/
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Lovely, always nice to see the army of my childhood pass by. And you needn't worry about the Engineers beret: https://www.militarycollectibles4u.nl/a-53625803/baretten/kl-baret-genie-1975-maat-62-origineel-henca-bv/
Bloody marvellous, Sir! :)
I don't care what everyone else says - you're ok with me! ;)