Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Old West => Topic started by: spect_spidey on December 17, 2018, 02:27:17 PM
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I am looking to do some shootouts in the Wild West. I have considered just using the Pulp Alley rules since I am familiar with the rules. They are easy to grasp and I can pretty much use them in other genres as well. I have looked at the rules post in this forum and done a bit of research on the ones listed in that post. Some provide great details on the website provided. Others do not. I have a few things that I am looking for in a game.
1. I prefer the models to have stats. They don't have to be abundant but I prefer that not all fighters be the same. If this can be accomplished using traits or abilities, I am fine with that.
2. I prefer a low amount of modifiers on rolls. I don't want to have to apply several different modifiers to a shooting or melee action.
3. A variety of scenarios or objectives to the game. I am not a fan of just killing your opponent. I need to achieve objectives like rescuing the citizens or blowing the safe.
4. Preferably a campaign system. I like to see my gang or posse or league whatever you want to call them grow and get better.
5. Lower side model count. I prefer games with 10 or less models per side.
6. I used to play Deadlands so if there is a supernatural twist that can be added to the game that is a plus. I primarily intend to play humans vs. humans. But it might be nice to be able to add a wrinkle with werewolves, vampires, zombies and such on occasion.
Right now it is looking like Dead Man's Hand or Blackwater Gulch are in the lead. But I would like the forum's opinion. Any replies are greatly appreciated. Thank you.
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You might try Gunfighter's Ball
http://knuckleduster.com/shop/index.php?route=product/product&path=9&product_id=603 (http://knuckleduster.com/shop/index.php?route=product/product&path=9&product_id=603)
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I'd heartily recommend A Fistful of Lead.
Meets all the requirements you've listed and comes with scenarios in the book and a second separate scenario book is available.
The mechanics are easily picked up in a first game and there is a lot of characterisation through traits.
Our group has been using them for a couple of years now, initially for Old West but of late we've done VSF, Gothic Horror and Cartel Wars. We've also played Napoleonic, F&IW and Smugglers with the Horse and Musket supplement.
Give them a try!
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There's a whole Rules for Old West thread around here somewhere, but I also heartily endorse Fistful of Lead. I also wrote them.
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I'd heartily recommend A Fistful of Lead.
Meets all the requirements you've listed and comes with scenarios in the book and a second separate scenario book is available.
The mechanics are easily picked up in a first game and there is a lot of characterisation through traits.
Our group has been using them for a couple of years now, initially for Old West but of late we've done VSF, Gothic Horror and Cartel Wars. We've also played Napoleonic, F&IW and Smugglers with the Horse and Musket supplement.
Give them a try!
Seconded, we’ve used these for over a year and are our go to set of rules. Loads of fun, simple but clever card driven mechanics.
I’ve played Dead Mans Hand but much prefer Fistful of Lead.
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I've used FfoL for Old West for years and the new Galactic Heroes set adds loads of customization. Great rules.
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While I am yet to play it, I would imagine Osprey's Dracula's America meets most, if not all, of your criteria. It is admittedly, as the name implies, supernaturally-themed, but I understand those elements can be readily ignored if required.
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I have to agree -"Fistful of Lead" and "Dead Man's Hand" both fit the bill - DMH possibly has a few more modifiers than FFoL. The Rules With No Name are also good.
There's a whole Rules for Old West thread around here somewhere, but I also heartily endorse Fistful of Lead. I also wrote them.
And as the good Baron says, there is a rules sticky at the top of the board page, although it doesn't go into to much detail about actual game mechanics.
RMZ
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I have to agree -"Fistful of Lead" and "Dead Man's Hand" both fit the bill - DMH possibly has a few more modifiers than FFoL. The Rules With No Name are also good.
And as the good Baron says, there is a rules sticky at the top of the board page, although it doesn't go into to much detail about actual game mechanics.
RMZ
Thank everyone for their responses. I did look at the sticky topic before I submitted my topic. The problem was that only GunFighter's Ball, Blackwater Gulch, and Dead Man's Hand seemed to give any real details on how their game is played on their websites.
Gunfighter's Ball from the rules I was able to read, seemed like every model was the same except for their weapon loadouts. They all seemed to have the same number of wounds, no talents, abilities, or any statline that account for an individual model's abilities. Blackwater Gulch seemed alright, but then I saw all the stats, details about strength determining how many weapons to carry, etc. This caused my eyes to kind of glaze over. LOL Deadman's Hand seemed promising if a bit on the pricey side. Over $20 for a 44 page comic book stapled product seems a bit high to me. And where is the PDF option? LOL The website for Fistful of Lead had absolutely no details. Their roster sheet gave me the impression that models might have talents or abilities, but there didn't appear to be any stats. I also have no idea what type of system it uses. I saw a bit on a game called Tombstone, but I am not sure if that is even out yet. I had also considered Dracula's America. I get the impression from it though that everyone is pretty much the same until you get a few games into a campaign and people start to get injuries or level up.
There just doesn't seem to be a lot of information out there for these types of skirmish games. I found almost no battle reports on YouTube.
Regardless of what system I look to use, I did find the Blackwater Gulch, Gunfighter's Ball, and Black Scorpion miniature lines to be to my liking. I will probably start out with some of the Blackwater ones first because they are U.S. based and seem to be the cheapest option. For terrain, I will go with TT Combat since I have a lot of their Venice buildings and I am very impressed with them.
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The main 'stat' for a FfoL character is their dice type. It's normally d8 for greenhorns and townsfolk, d10 for most characters and d12 for experienced gunfighters. Most characters can take 3 wounds before they're off, though they can be immediately killed under certain circumstances. Traits can raise or lower wound levels and dice types for certain actions, ie. Some characters might be better at hand to hand combat, or shooting, or resolving tasks.
The card activation system gives an element of uncertainty in the turn but also gives you tactical control of how you play based on your cards and the special rules that some give. High cards get your character activated at the start of the turn but the special abilities of the cards tend to be passive (recovering a wound or recovering from shock), though jacks offer offensive bonuses. The middle cards and the 2 offer larger benefits but you have to wait to activate. For the cost of the pdf it's worth picking up Fistful of Lead Reloaded and Galactic Heroes. I had the pleasure of gaming with Jaye at this year's blam and his main ethos is fun. This comes across in the rules.
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We really like Dead Man's Hand. A real cinematic feel, with cards used both for activation, and played from hand to cause stumbles, jams, allow characters to survive and so on.
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We really like Dead Man's Hand. A real cinematic feel, with cards used both for activation, and played from hand to cause stumbles, jams, allow characters to survive and so on.
The action cards are the game and are sold as a bundle with the rule book. As Steve says, the game has a very cinematic feel and plays well.
@spect_spidey - an example of the card can be seen in my AAR here - http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=108433.0 (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=108433.0)
And my collection of FFoL character cards can be seen here -
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=105278.msg1356097#msg1356097 (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=105278.msg1356097#msg1356097)
RMZ
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You may enjoy "6 gun sound" by "two hours wargame".
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You may enjoy "6 gun sound" by "two hours wargame".
+1 for this. A new version has just been released. See here - http://www.twohourwargames.com/sixgunsodeel.html (http://www.twohourwargames.com/sixgunsodeel.html)
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+1 for this. A new version has just been released. See here - http://www.twohourwargames.com/sixgunsodeel.html (http://www.twohourwargames.com/sixgunsodeel.html)
Thanks for that. Just ordered it, partly swayed by the claim of outstanding solo capability.
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spect_spidey: "I saw a bit on a game called Tombstone, but I am not sure if that is even out yet."
Tombstone is out - published by Black Scorpion.
https://www.blackscorpionminiatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=340&osCsid=9oedau5p30iaj6r8a2gs994up0
I have it, but I have not played it yet or done much more than glanced at it (sorry). I can tell you the characters have attributes with different dice assigned (d6 seems to be the standard). It has a campaign system so surviving members of your faction can improve, and there are special skills that can be acquired as characters gain experience.
-Michael
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Another vote for Fistful of Lead: Easy and fast, but plenty of strategy
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I appreciate all the responses I have received so far. I am still undecided on a rules set. Here are my current thoughts on some of the front runners.
Tombstone - I like the idea that every exchange seems to be opposed rolls. I like stats being different dice types. It having a campaign system is a plus. The minis look nice though I am not a fan of resin. I see possibilities here. I just would like to know more and wonder how long it would take to memorize the hit and wound charts. It also has a bit of horror element that can be thrown in.
Gunfighter's Ball - Percentile system that makes use of charts for hitting and wounding. It doesn't seem to have a campaign system or any difference between the characters used. The minis seem adequate, but not very inspiring. I might use some minis for filler because they are cheap, but I don't think the rules work for me from what I have seen.
Fistful of Lead - I haven't seen much on this one outside of this topic. The game doesn't have a mini line. I don't know if it has a campaign system or many options for character creation. It appears to use some card system for initiative with certain cards representing free actions?
Dead Man's Hand - The books seem a bit pricey for the size. I think they would need to be packed with content in those 44 pages to warrant the price. I wish there was a PDF option. The card mechanic seems interesting. I couldn't find many details on the campaign system and whether characters can gain additional abilities. It has horror elements that can be added which is a plus for me. I like the three act scenario kind of play. It makes it seem very cinematic. The minis look decent, but I am not a fan of the sculpted to the mini bases.
Blackwater Gulch - The system seems alright, but the free rules I could view on their website seemed a little unclear. Character creation could use some specifics. The miniatures are aesthetically pleasing. I actually ordered some and I am waiting on their arrival. I can't tell how much of a campaign system it has or what types of scenarios it has. I do like the horror aspects that I am seeing for the game.
Pulp Alley - I already have the rules and I am familiar with the system. It has a great campaign system, horror, and solo play. It will need a few tweaks to make it feel like a western.
Is there anything that people can add to this? Any of them besides Pulp Alley have a solo play system?
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I'm amazed you haven't seen much of fistful of Lead as there are loads of threads across the LAF, especially with the sci-fi version now out. It doesn't have a miniature line because it is intended to be used with whatever you have. For example, I use Artizan in the main, with a few Dixon townsfolk and the odd Foundry for my games of FfoL.
The campaign system is simple and straightforward, allowing you to develop your gang as you see fit by adding traits, etc.
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While I am yet to play it, I would imagine Osprey's Dracula's America meets most, if not all, of your criteria. It is admittedly, as the name implies, supernaturally-themed, but I understand those elements can be readily ignored if required.
Another advocate for Dracula America. A heavy emphasis on the pulpy horror side of things but serviceable as a pure Western game. And the campaign rules are really good.
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Another set worth a look is Gutshot. It is a little more detailed than some of those listed, and isn't intended for solo play (though you could do so without much trouble), but it's a great system and plays very fast. It is also, by far, the most fun to read of any Western set I've seen - it has a contagious enthusiasm for the era that is a lot of fun, and most inspiring. A few more thoughts:
1.) Figure count in this game is slightly smaller than some of the others mentioned; probably no more than 3-4 per player. With some houserules you could easily create mooks, though, who die fast and easy - in case Magnificent Seven calls.
2.) There is no dedicated figure line. Use what you want!
3.) Available here: http://www.hawgleg.com/
4.) I have no affiliation with them. Jest sayin'.
5.) The authors are Texans, which should count for something.
Anyway, not to detract for a second from any of the other rules (FfoL is excellent - though not suitable for solo play), but take a peek at Gutshot. The inspiration alone is worth the price of admission in my humble opinion.
* One last thought: have you ever taken a look at Deadlands? Or its offshoot, Savage Worlds? The second isn't a dedicated Western set, but the rules engine is superb and could easily handle Wild West action.
So there you go! :)
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* One last thought: have you ever taken a look at Deadlands? Or its offshoot, Savage Worlds? The second isn't a dedicated Western set, but the rules engine is superb and could easily handle Wild West action.
So there you go! :)
I ran Deadlands for a long time back in its heyday. I have Savage Worlds and I have tried to run it a time or two. It just doesn't click with me. If I had to be honest, I prefer the old Deadlands system to Savage Worlds.
This topic is mainly to see if there is any reason to bother to look for a Wild West specific set of rules rather than just using Pulp Alley as written. I really like the flexibility of Pulp Alley. I was wondering though if there was a set of rules that might do Wild West better. So far, I am not sure if there is much of an advantage for me to use a Wild West specific set of rules. Each seems to have its merits, but none seem to blow me away like Pulp Alley did when I first found it.
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Pdf for Fistful of Lead is $6. Worth a look.
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spect_spidey wrote:
Dead Man's Hand - The books seem a bit pricey for the size. I think they would need to be packed with content in those 44 pages to warrant the price. I wish there was a PDF option. The card mechanic seems interesting. I couldn't find many details on the campaign system and whether characters can gain additional abilities. It has horror elements that can be added which is a plus for me. I like the three act scenario kind of play. It makes it seem very cinematic. The minis look decent, but I am not a fan of the sculpted to the mini bases.
The books come with a deck of cards, which partly accounts for the price; they are pretty packed with content. You can also buy more cards. I think the original book has about 6 scenarios, each with 3 scenes, plus 4 factions. The Legend book has 4 more faction (plus cards for them), and a campaign system, which does indeed allow characters to gain new abilities. It also has some more scenarios. There's is also a horror supplement featuring undead and the like but I've not got that. I've not used their minis - I have plenty of Foundry and old West Wind minis.
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Another vote for Fistful of Lead. Fun and easy to get the hang of. The new version of Six Gun Sound seems interesting, but is designed more for solo play.
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For what it may be worth, my copy of Six Gun Sound: Devil's Elbow arrived today. There's plenty of content, including paper miniatures, and it looks a bit more involved than I imagined, but I'm looking forward to trying it. I hope it works as well in solo play as claimed.
Now I'm intrigued by Gutshot, but have held off clicking on the link so far.
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I have a copy of Dracula's America coming from Amazon since we had some credit on our account. I shall see how it goes. But I am still trying to make a decision. Right now it looks like Gunfighter's Ball is in front based upon the the variety of minis, ease of access to said minis, and a physical rulebook. However I did come across another set of rules for a game called Shoot N'Skedaddle. It can be found at http://shootnskedaddle.blogspot.com/
I kind of like it's character card concept and the use of the different polyhedral dice. I just need to read the rulebook entirely to get a feel for it.
I know several people have mentioned Fist Full of Lead, but it just doesn't seem to grab me with the details I have found about it.
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I’ve moved from Legends of the Old West to DMH to Gunfighter’s Ball, which is now my preferred rules set. GFB does not meet your criteria because it really doesn’t have a true campaign system built into the game. It has an experience system, where characters can gain in experience by surviving and being on the winning side of a scenario.
Characters can be customized. In the rule book, there are Abilities and Quirks that can be assigned to characters. You can also use the Pistoleer deck to customize the characters in the same way, if you want to do it randomly. Otherwise, the major differences are in how many actions you assign to the characters on a side.
And I’m going to have to disagree with the OP about the figures from Knuckleduster. I’ve had figures from DMH, from reaper, from Old Glory, from Foundry, and (IMO) the figures from Knuckleduster are the best figures on the market today.
In closing, I have had more fun on a game by game basis with GFB than any other rules set I’ve tried. But based on the criteria that you have laid out, you may be best served by trying to find copies of Legends of the Old West. It ticks off most of the check marks you have laid out, but we found to it to be a bit dry.
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I’ve moved from Legends of the Old West to DMH to Gunfighter’s Ball, which is now my preferred rules set. GFB does not meet your criteria because it really doesn’t have a true campaign system built into the game. It has an experience system, where characters can gain in experience by surviving and being on the winning side of a scenario.
Characters can be customized. In the rule book, there are Abilities and Quirks that can be assigned to characters. You can also use the Pistoleer deck to customize the characters in the same way, if you want to do it randomly. Otherwise, the major differences are in how many actions you assign to the characters on a side.
And I’m going to have to disagree with the OP about the figures from Knuckleduster. I’ve had figures from DMH, from reaper, from Old Glory, from Foundry, and (IMO) the figures from Knuckleduster are the best figures on the market today.
In closing, I have had more fun on a game by game basis with GFB than any other rules set I’ve tried. But based on the criteria that you have laid out, you may be best served by trying to find copies of Legends of the Old West. It ticks off most of the check marks you have laid out, but we found to it to be a bit dry.
Thank you for the informative response. The lack of a campaign may not be as big of an issue with GFB knowing that there is the pistolier deck and abilities in the game itself. Most campaigns don't seem to last past 6 to 8 games anyways so I could just allow anyone who survives make a test to see if they get a new ability or card draw from the pistolier deck. The GFB minis have grown a bit on me. I bought a faction pack for them off eBay. I shall have a better formed opinion of them once they arrive. I generally am not a fan of metal minis, but GFB minis seem to be one piece. I don't have much luck with multi-part metal minis. For some reason I have problems with getting the super glue to set on them. It seems to be inconsistent. One time they will adhere with no issues. The next may take several minutes of me holding the pieces together only for them to fall apart once I release them.
After receiving some of the Blackwater Gulch minis, I have kind of eliminated them. They were multi-part metal. They were a pain in my rear to assemble and they seemed smaller than most 28mm minis. The pictures made them look heroic scale, but they seem smaller than Reaper ones I own and seem to be more in size with Pulp Alley minis. That is kind of a plus for use in that game, but seems to make them not compatible with the likes of GFB, DMH, or Dracula's America minis.
I should have my Dracula's America book tomorrow so I can see how that relates for my supernatural/campaign needs. I would assume that if GFB minis are compatible with DMH and Artizan minis, then there shouldn't be any issue with adding Dracula's America minis or possibly some Reaper Deadlands minis into the mix.
Sorry for the long response. Thanks again to everyone who has made suggestions so far. May everyone have a Happy New Year!!
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I think you'll find the Knuckleduster / GFB figures excellent. The only gluing required is to the slotted bases, at least on the ones I have.
As regards your general misfortunes with superglue, it may be in part a result of the specific product you've used, but it seems more likely that the bond would be strengthened with baking soda or Deluxe Materials' Roket (sic) Powder. An accelerator might also help, particularly if the time taken for the glue to set is your main concern, though I'm not personally accustomed to using these, so cannot say for sure. Supporting the pieces with Blu Tak or similar while the glue sets, if feasible, can also be beneficial. Unfortunately, it is usually rather fiddly work.
Alternatively a two part epoxy might give better results, but is only really feasible on larger pieces - for joining an arm to torso, or hand to arm, for example, it is rather wasteful. In my experience, J-B Weld seems to live up to its claim of being the "world's strongest bond", at least with metal parts - it includes steel in its ingredients - but it is very slow setting.
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I'll heavily agree - there is no other miniature line on the market that touches Knuckleduster at the moment. Not one. Best old west figures by a mile.
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I'll heavily agree - there is no other miniature line on the market that touches Knuckleduster at the moment. Not one. Best old west figures by a mile.
My first set of Knuckleduster minis arrived today. I got to say, I like them way more than the Blackwater Gulch ones that I ordered. Now if only I could get some Chinese rail workers or Tong from them and maybe a few more Banditos or some supernatural items to fill in for Dracula's America factions and some Deadlands roleplaying. LOL
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I'm not surprised that you're impressed. The only others which fit in with them in terms of size and detail to the best of my knowledge, are Black Scorpion, but I only have the older metal ones, which are no longer in production. The resin replacements are no doubt equally - if not better - detailed, but I can't see weapons resisting regular handling, let alone being dropped, as the metal ones do.
I'd also like to see more Knuckleduster banditos, and Apaches are surely mandatory as a future release.
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I'm not surprised that you're impressed. The only others which fit in with them in terms of size and detail to the best of my knowledge, are Black Scorpion, but I only have the older metal ones, which are no longer in production. The resin replacements are no doubt equally - if not better - detailed, but I can't see weapons resisting regular handling, let alone being dropped, as the metal ones do.
I'd also like to see more Knuckleduster banditos, and Apaches are surely mandatory as a future release.
The Black Scorpion minis, while nice, are a bit to chunky and a little taller than Knuckleduster. Knuckleduster is in between Black Scorpion and the likes of Artizan, DMH, and the official Dracula's America line. Personally I like mixing them with Artizan and such, Black Scorpion is just a bit too heroic for my tastes to fit in well.
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Now if only I could get some Chinese rail workers or Tong from them
Empress >>> Tsuba >>> miscellaneous: 3 packs of Chinese, including one of Tong.
Crucible Crush >>> Pulp Figures >>> Yangtze Gangs: Many of these have open hands and can be given shovels & picks & hammers instead of swords & spears & axes. A few have muskets and could defend the Chinese camp. Only 2 of the 10 Tong figures have tommy guns. The other 8 Tong figures could be used for Old West.
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Caliver Books now has the Gunfighter's Ball rule book and cards in stock, together with a lot of new figures. The figures (GBF 58 - GFB83) aren't on the catalogue as yet, or even listed under New Additions, but newsletter subscribers will have received the Early January update.
P.S. For anyone confused by the product codes, so am I.
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Yup, I've ordered my set of rules - cant wait. I've been looking forward to these for ages after missing the Kickstarter