Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Great War => Topic started by: Gribb on December 20, 2018, 06:46:07 AM
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And late war at that?
With so many interesting combatants and units participating besides these two nations. Austria-Hungary, Russia, Serbia, Ottoman Empire, France, Belgium..
Point is while many have no qualms about collecting and getting into all sort of obscure armies(particularly napoleonics) and gaming all sort of obscure skirmishes of earlier periods.
But as time passes do you think other nations will be given more attention among new gamers coming into the hobby?
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I'm not sure I agree with original assertion. 1914 seems just as popular if not more so than later war, possibly due to the lack of trenches and wire.
While it is always hard to generalise about holdings of specific figure types, our group boasts British, French, Russian, Austrian, Belgian, Turkish, Indian, Arab and German troops ranging from 1914 to 1919 in scales varying from 6mm to 54mm.
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Well given there are dedicated ranges for all the nations you have listed and in some cases multiple manufacturers, there must be someone out there, mustn’t there? You can add Australians, New Zealanders, Indian Army, Americans, Turks, Italians, Sharifian Arabs, Bulgarians and Greeks to your list.
As wargaming was and remains a largely Anglophone pastime, it’s hardly remarkable that much of the focus lays with the British and the Western Front. Late war attracts interest because of the toys, principally tanks.
Wargaming is a niche hobby and The Great War is a tiny niche within a niche. Do I see a massive upswell of interest in Salonika, Caporetto or Tannenberg? Probably not.
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That's certainly not the case at my local club, it's early war with Germans and Belgians for 1914.
Not quite WW1, but I also have Greeks and Turks for the 1912 Balkans War.
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Well given there are dedicated ranges for all the nations you have listed and in some cases multiple manufacturers, there must be someone out there, mustn’t there? You can add Australians, New Zealanders, Indian Army, Americans, Turks, Italians, Sharifian Arabs, Bulgarians and Greeks to your list.
As wargaming was and remains a largely Anglophone pastime, it’s hardly remarkable that much of the focus lays with the British and the Western Front. Late war attracts interest because of the toys, principally tanks.
Wargaming is a niche hobby and The Great War is a tiny niche within a niche. Do I see a massive upswell of interest in Salonika, Caporetto or Tannenberg? Probably not.
They are all represented indeed but far from the extent to that of UK and Germany. You can find them, but I am talking about the main theme among manufacturers and wargames being held.
This does not hold true for earlier armies and conflicts to the same extent. There are a lot of niche, small wars being given attention in recent years with more information easily available. The same should shed some new light on ww1.
I also suspect its a generation thing that will change. A lot of the media coverage has been on the Western Front and in particular the British. Like with Peter Jacksons upcoming documentary.
Nationality has certainly not prevented Anglo or German gamers from collecting and taking interest in armies and conflicts far away in location and time that they have no true relation to.
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Though I do have decent British and German forces, I also have decent Russian and Turkish forces and have run some scenarios based on their fights around Armenia.
Do most manufacturers focus on Germans and Brits? I don't know. I know the manufacturers that I buy from have slightly more of these lines, but I have not checked every site.
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Our hobby of collecting,painting and gaming with toy soldiers is already a niche hobby. Separate out those who focus on historical subjects, and the group gets smaller. WWI is less popular than, say, WWII or Napoleonic Wars.
Yet there are still those of us interested in diverse aspects of the Great War. My own WWI collection includes 1914-15 and 1916-18 Western Front French, Germans, British (painted as Canadians) and Belgians. But it also includes ANZACS, Indians and Ottomans for Gallipoli, Mesopotamia and Palestine, and KAR and Brits for East Africa. There are readily available Russians, Austro-Hungarians, Italians, Serbians and more. The various Russian Civil War and Back of Beyond campaigns that feature strongly here at LAF are arguably extensions of WWI gaming, happening in the aftermath of that conflict and involving so many WWI veterans. And that's just looking at the war on land! WWI in the air or at sea opens up further opportunities (I'm not personally interested in air or sea battles, but the big WWI air battles feature regularly at my wargaming club).
When you're looking at a niche within a niche, as WWI gaming is within the wargaming community. But for those interested in getting away from the Western Front, there are no great barriers to building up suitable forces.
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Peter Pig has a whole set of 15mm figs and rules for all the non UK vs. German fronts. So no not at all. :)
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And Brigade Games has made a very creditable coverage of the Italian Front with Austro-Hungarians and Italians.
My own collection is primarily 28mm 1916 and on (stahlhelm Germans - who are very versatile, as they can be used on all fronts except the Mideast, and also as Friekorps) and Brigade's Austrians (in caps, but they continued to use those throughout the war as well as the stahlhelm). Have a few Russian sailors and partisans which I will do something with someday (probably provide opposition to Freikorps post-war
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To be honest about the only active participants whose armies aren’t covered in 28mm that I can think of are Japan and Montenegro. Given that Japan was only involved in one battle, the siege of Tsingtao, I think we can forgive the world’s makers of toy soldiers for having overlooked them. Maybe someone makes them in another scale?
Not bad for a niche within a niche. Now try finding mid to late 18thC Spanish.
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I have recently built up a Russian army just for a change from pitting by Brits against my friends Germans. I enjoyed the research and painting etc although there only seems to be high level accounts of the War available.
The Eastern Front does seem more gamable with it being more mobile. There just seems to be a lack of information and maybe awareness of its potential?
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I use a few French aircraft as well.
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To be honest about the only active participants whose armies aren’t covered in 28mm that I can think of are Japan and Montenegro. Given that Japan was only involved in one battle, the siege of Tsingtao, I think we can forgive the world’s makers of toy soldiers for having overlooked them. Maybe someone makes them in another scale?
Not bad for a niche within a niche. Now try finding mid to late 18thC Spanish.
Looks like Tiger Miniatures does Montenegrin soldiers http://tigerminiatures.co.uk/page10.htm
Of course they are for the Balkan Wars (1912-1913), so not a dedicated WWI offering... ;)
And did Japanese uniforms change much from 1905? Because there are certainly Russo-Japanese War troops available!
Can't help you with late 18th C Spaniards, sorry!
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Did Japanese uniforms change from the Russo-Japanese War? Yes and noticeably so.
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That's certainly not the case at my local club, it's early war with Germans and Belgians for 1914.
Not quite WW1, but I also have Greeks and Turks for the 1912 Balkans War.
Now thats cool and the curiosity I was looking for. The Belgians did a tremendous effort and certainly have some of the most interesting uniforms of the early war.
I have recently built up a Russian army just for a change from pitting by Brits against my friends Germans. I enjoyed the research and painting etc although there only seems to be high level accounts of the War available.
The Eastern Front does seem more gamable with it being more mobile. There just seems to be a lack of information and maybe awareness of its potential?
That sounds pretty cool and the sort of answer I was hoping for. My interest for the Eastern front has increased and I think it has a great potential. Besides the massive clashes there is plenty of possiblity of mobile warfare. Was it Siberia Miniatures?
I noticed this range a while ago and they look have some pretty nice sculpts going but I don't know how they scale up.
For such a vast conflict with more ready available information I was just curious of the general theme of interest in just two of the combatants. There are, in my opinion, many more interesting fronts and nations to discover like in other eras of warfare.
Well I hold on to the belief that its due to the narrow presentation in documentaries, literature and movies that gives heavy account/interviews to these two combatants. Brits in particular. I am not tryng to discredit the interest in the western front/UK-German battles, only question what I perceived to be a general lack of interest in other theaters and nations of the war.
I already know one can dig up every combatant in some shape of form, but those that bring up that and that its a "niche" hobby (I knew that before entry and still get reminded of it by relatives and friends). I do not question this aspect, I question what I perceived to be the narrow interest in this conflict by many.
And as some have proven, this is not the case for everyone at all.
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For an excellent history focusing on the Eastern Front, I strongly recommend the books of Prit Buttar (for 1914, Collision of Empires; for 1915, Germany Ascendant; for 1916-17, Russia's Last Gasp; and for 1917-21, The Splintered Empires). I am currently reading The Splintered Empires and have read the others (except for Collision of Empires - felt I didn't need another book about Tannenberg).
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For an excellent history focusing on the Eastern Front, I strongly recommend the books of Prit Buttar (for 1914, Collision of Empires; for 1915, Germany Ascendant; for 1916-17, Russia's Last Gasp; and for 1917-21, The Splintered Empires). I am currently reading The Splintered Empires and have read the others (except for Collision of Empires - felt I didn't need another book about Tannenberg).
Noted, I will look out for these books. Haven't heard about these before.
Thanks for the information :)
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In my area I remember playing in only 4 WW1 land games, 3 of those set in Africa. One was a fantasy of Germans paying for a revolt in Belgian Congo. Another was a joint British and French expedition in Cameroon. Yet another was a fight in German East Africa. The only scenario I played set in Europe involved French and Germans, no British in sight. I have observed some WW1 trench warfare games at our regional convention, but I don't remember the combatants.
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Noted, I will look out for these books. Haven't heard about these before.
Thanks for the information :)
Amazon is selling Kindle versions for just a couple of dollars each. I bought the set because the price was ridiculously low!
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Well, we'll hold a demo game at a modeling show next year with a Limanowa-ish theme, Hungarian hussars and infantry assaulting a small Russian village held by Russians :) But yeah, I feel a strong bias towards end war, Western Front, but it's getting a bit better with stuff by Strelets in 1:72.
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One thing you can say about 1:72nd scale is that it is relatively cheap.
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Carlos, late 18C Spanish coming soon. Ask next time you see me
Nic EUREKA MINIATURES
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Amazon is selling Kindle versions for just a couple of dollars each. I bought the set because the price was ridiculously low!
Much obliged, Thank you.
Well, we'll hold a demo game at a modeling show next year with a Limanowa-ish theme, Hungarian hussars and infantry assaulting a small Russian village held by Russians :) But yeah, I feel a strong bias towards end war, Western Front, but it's getting a bit better with stuff by Strelets in 1:72.
Sounds like fun :) The titanic clashes between these two armies certainly offer much exciting gaming options. Yes, there has been a bias towards the late war. Personally I prefer the more fluid warfare of early war, and prefer cavalry over tanks.
Strelets do look like nice miniatures, and as Metternich mentioned at a fine price. I hope they add some Austro-Hungarian cavalry. But there being infantry and also Serbs is a good start. And could build up for skirmish games.
Thank you.
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For those thinking of using Strelets for their WW 1 needs, Plastic Soldier Review has available on-line a compendium of their reviews of various small-scale (i.e. 1/72nd) manufacturers and their products, usually including pictures of the box contents. You can look them up by manufacturer or period. Strelets is very prolific, as is HAT.
http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Manufacturers.aspx
http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Periods.aspx
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If it is for 28mm quality miniatures the answer is an absolute yes !
Before Great War miniatures it was a desert and only the Woodbine Design was an oasis.
When the first miniatures came out i felt optimistic about the future.
Alas after the ''obligatory'' French and Germans came some Americans and early war Belgians and then the end ...
Russians, Serbs and Montenegrins( The -negrians is wrong ), Rumanians, Greeks, Austro Hungarians ( scarab minis did some kind of a job ), Bulgarians and of cource lots of artillery... Nothing !
I wouldn't mension companies from the U.S.A because their postage rates ar nearly forbidden except if you are willing to pay something almost twice its cost.
( for Greece the postage is about 35-45 % ! )
Somebody has to tell the manufacturers and the wargamers that when the Balkan front fell, Bulgaria surrendered becoming the first of the Central Powers, followed by Austro Hungary...
The ''big push'' happened in Balkans so in my opinion some company has to produce some quality figures for this neglected front who admittedly was the one who brought the end for the Central Powers.
Maybe this will never happen, i know ...
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It's a little more complicated than manufacturers only sticking to the big three.
The reality is it's an organic process and industry most gamers on here have grown up the hobby, as it grows as an industry.
Companies start with the bread and buttter. Because thats how people enter the period . knowledge of a conflict grows as you play and read up on the subject. Subsequently the desire to play other aspects and fronts with in a conflict.
Unfortunately gamers are butterflies .This is a niche with in a niche. The number of Wargamers who progress past the basics of the period are few and far between.( No doubt some one will argue otherwise.) I know from experience that it's perfectly possible to build and cast any thing from the period.But selling it to the point it's in profit is another thing.
It takes time for the available information on a subject to become popular enough to become a commercially viable option.
People are researching the subject and published works are becoming more widely available.Plus the advent of historical websites is speeding up the acquisition of the subject knowledge and the desire to game the period . from a commercial perspective the desire isn't high enough to warrant the investment.
As Mr Andrew's is fond of saying 'if was all about the money we'd have done Napoleonic's not Great War.'
The reason is simple it's exceptionally easy to research the period (both as a hobbyist and a company.) Which makes it Very popular.
Thus the desire is there on both sides of the argument.
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I know from experience that it's perfectly possible to build and cast any thing from the period.But selling it to the point it's in profit is another thing.
Is their a rough rule of thumb of how many figures cast you need to sell for you to recover the production costs?
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If it is for 28mm quality miniatures the answer is an absolute yes !
The ''big push'' happened in Balkans so in my opinion some company has to produce some quality figures for this neglected front who admittedly was the one who brought the end for the Central Powers.
Maybe this will never happen, i know ...
Good point. Quality figures for this front is hard to come by. Hopefully this will change with growing interest in this front. Its rather a shame its overlooked. All sorts of obscure conflicts have made it, so why not such a important theater of the war?
I hope to get some Austro-Hungarians started, but would need co-operation on getting them started.
It takes time for the available information on a subject to become popular enough to become a commercially viable option.
People are researching the subject and published works are becoming more widely available.Plus the advent of historical websites is speeding up the acquisition of the subject knowledge and the desire to game the period . from a commercial perspective the desire isn't high enough to warrant the investment.
As Mr Andrew's is fond of saying 'if was all about the money we'd have done Napoleonic's not Great War.'
The reason is simple it's exceptionally easy to research the period (both as a hobbyist and a company.) Which makes it Very popular.
Thus the desire is there on both sides of the argument.
The gaming industry seems more varied in offering quality miniatures for a wide variety of conflicts. Far less obscure than the Eastern front of ww1. Even though a niche hobby there are a surprising amount of wars that still become popular. The Spanish-American war range of 1898 Miniatures has been very well received(they are very well sculpted). What it often comes down to is not only books drawing interest in a period, but the quality of the miniatures.
I am sure I am not the only one being drawn into buying miniatures from a period by exceptional sculpting rather than books. And then the interest and knowledge increased after(1898 Spanish-American war..).
Had a top quality sculptor launched a ww1 range to include Austro-Hungarians and/or Serbs I am quite sure it would receive different attention due to the quality of sculpting. Those other available are outdated and would look odd next to modern sculpts like Mutton Chop Miniatures.
Books and online informaton on other fronts are like you say becoming more available. So while "the big three" may dominate now(especially among the older grognards). But as new gamers are entering the hobby this may very well provide a paradigm shift.
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Had a top quality sculptor launched a ww1 range to include Austro-Hungarians and/or Serbs I am quite sure it would receive different attention due to the quality of sculpting.
Paul Hicks did some great-looking stuff for Brigade Games, though they are only useful for the first half of the war.
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Paul Hicks did some great-looking stuff for Brigade Games, though they are only useful for the first half of the war.
There is plenty of great stuff at Brigade Games. The Austro-Hungarians are lovely sculpted. Its a pity Brigade Games are not in stock among UK/European distributors because US shipping rates is a dealbreaker.
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Paul Hicks did some great-looking stuff for Brigade Games, though they are only useful for the first half of the war.
The stahlhelm was issued later on the Eastern Front than in the West and even then wasn't as widely worn. As the Russian pulled out of the war in 1917, the Brigade Games Austro-Hungarians are over for most of the period.
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Interesting to hear folks bemoaning the high cost of postage from the US. Over here, the shoe is often on the other foot. Only way I could afford the Great War miniatures is that Brigade Games imports them (and cost of postage is therefore cushioned somewhat). Perhaps Northstar or some other UK company could be induced to import Brigade Games excellent Italian Front figures ?
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Hang Tuah, Austro-Hungarian supply difficulties resulted in a lot of equipment and uniforms being used throughout the war. The Brigade Games figures can be used for late war, despite the lack of stahlhelms, simply by painting them in feldgrau rather than pikegrey (although, as I noted, many men continued to wear older uniforms).
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Interesting to hear folks bemoaning the high cost of postage from the US. Over here, the shoe is often on the other foot. Only way I could afford the Great War miniatures is that Brigade Games imports them (and cost of postage is therefore cushioned somewhat). Perhaps Northstar or some other UK company could be induced to import Brigade Games excellent Italian Front figures ?
I think quite a few British firms have tried - being an agent for a range requires co-operation on both sides. I do believe there is a pretty strong market for their figures in the UK if they were willing to “play ball”?! I hope they do (eg their RCW figures are quite nifty!).
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I think quite a few British firms have tried - being an agent for a range requires co-operation on both sides. I do believe there is a pretty strong market for their figures in the UK if they were willing to “play ball”?! I hope they do (eg their RCW figures are quite nifty!).
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if I recall correctly the owner of Brigade Games were not interested in this sort of cooperation, wanting to focus on the American market. A shame as their Austrians are excellent.
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Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if I recall correctly the owner of Brigade Games were not interested in this sort of cooperation, wanting to focus on the American market. A shame as their Austrians are excellent.
That's a real shame if true. He has a lot of ranges like ww2 chinese that you cannot get anywhere else.
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Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if I recall correctly the owner of Brigade Games were not interested in this sort of cooperation, wanting to focus on the American market. A shame as their Austrians are excellent.
Yep - that’s what I’d heard but only “second hand” so not sure what the actual facts are.... if true (emphasise the “if”) it’s a great shame. Some of the Paul Hicks sculpts, in particular, are really quite appealing.
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(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-DFbgME3f5Gs/WnbcBEM_9RI/AAAAAAAAXME/A9ccNkxYgtA-8nUxYhpt69mTPb47XeyiACLcBGAs/s1600/20180117_111535.jpg)
Our little group have played WW1 Mesopotamia and Palestine for years, the area has so much more to offer than the static fronts of other areas of the Conflicts.
Although not massively covered by figure manufacturers The Woodbine Design Company range certainly makes life a lot easier covering the main Ottoman and British Empire troops.
However by looking around at other "nearby" 28mm ranges other units can be made up, I have Highlanders from the Minifigs Ablaze in the East Range, Highlanders, Turkish Cavalry and an Indian Mountain Gun from Empress Jazz Age Imperialism range. British Cavalry from Great War Miniatures (with a Woodbine) head swap. Copplestone have suitable figures as do Brigade. But as you have all pointed out Brigade are so hard to get hold of in the UK.
It's a real shame that the other areas aren't covered as much, I do my best to keep Mesopotamia in the Gaming radar.
Regards Ken
The Yarkshire Gamer
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Our little group have played WW1 Mesopotamia and Palestine for years, the area has so much more to offer than the static fronts of other areas of the Conflicts.
Although not massively covered by figure manufacturers The Woodbine Design Company range certainly makes life a lot easier covering the main Ottoman and British Empire troops.
However by looking around at other "nearby" 28mm ranges other units can be made up, I have Highlanders from the Minifigs Ablaze in the East Range, Highlanders, Turkish Cavalry and an Indian Mountain Gun from Empress Jazz Age Imperialism range. British Cavalry from Great War Miniatures (with a Woodbine) head swap. Copplestone have suitable figures as do Brigade. But as you have all pointed out Brigade are so hard to get hold of in the UK.
It's a real shame that the other areas aren't covered as much, I do my best to keep Mesopotamia in the Gaming radar.
Regards Ken
The Yarkshire Gamer
Thanks for sharing, its great to see other fronts being gamed. Woodbine does have some nice figures, and their separate head option provides for quite some variation. Love the scenery and figures, good job at capturing the atmosphere.
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Our little group have played WW1 Mesopotamia and Palestine for years, the area has so much more to offer than the static fronts of other areas of the Conflicts.
Although not massively covered by figure manufacturers The Woodbine Design Company range certainly makes life a lot easier covering the main Ottoman and British Empire troops.
However by looking around at other "nearby" 28mm ranges other units can be made up, I have Highlanders from the Minifigs Ablaze in the East Range, Highlanders, Turkish Cavalry and an Indian Mountain Gun from Empress Jazz Age Imperialism range. British Cavalry from Great War Miniatures (with a Woodbine) head swap. Copplestone have suitable figures as do Brigade. But as you have all pointed out Brigade are so hard to get hold of in the UK.
It's a real shame that the other areas aren't covered as much, I do my best to keep Mesopotamia in the Gaming radar.
Regards Ken
The Yarkshire Gamer
That's where I started my 1/72 collection from, with my hordes of Ottomans. Still can't resist buying more cavalry when I go on the early war miniatures website.