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Miniatures Adventure => Old West => Topic started by: fixedpoint on December 31, 2018, 07:20:14 PM

Title: Rules for Bystanders
Post by: fixedpoint on December 31, 2018, 07:20:14 PM

I own a number of old west rulesets and we've done a fair number of gunfights, but after reading AAR reports here and seeing the lively towns that people have made, I want to spice things up by adding a bunch of bystanders.

What are some ideas for rules to govern bystanders? What have you done that worked well or what didn't turn out so well? How did you make it rich and yet not bog down the game? Did the GM use the bystanders to help balance the game? How did they play into victory conditions?

I'm looking for anything from the funny to even RPG-lite as long as it flows well and isn't excessively hard to track. I'd love to see specific ideas and specific archetypes.

Thanks!

Title: Re: Rules for Bystanders
Post by: Patrice on December 31, 2018, 07:46:44 PM

Quote from: fixedpoint on December 31, 2018, 07:20:14 PM

Did the GM use the bystanders to help balance the game? How did they play into victory conditions?

Generaly speaking, if there's a GM running the game (as in a RPG) the victory conditions are secondary (even if there are opposite sides amongst players) what's important is the feeling of adventure.

If a (neutral or near-neutral) GM is available, he/she can imagine some secrets, treasures, inquiries, things to resolve etc.
Example: a bystander may know that Jim X... had robbed a bank and had a treasure; another bystander knows that Jim X was friend with James Y... and a third bystander could know where is the grave of James Y. And perhaps the treasure is in the grave (or not) etc. etc.
So when the players (the miniature which represents them) come in contact with these bystanders they can talk with them and ask questions, and the GM answers as in any RPG.

Title: Re: Rules for Bystanders
Post by: twrchtrwyth on December 31, 2018, 09:53:55 PM

In Her Majesty's Name handles armed and unarmed civilians well by making them types of environments. I haven't got the book in front of me but if I remember, armed civilians take pot shots at you and unarmed civilains are at risk of being shot and cause you loss of victory points. There is also a skill that allows you to hide in the crowd.

Title: Re: Rules for Bystanders
Post by: Inkpaduta on December 31, 2018, 10:23:01 PM

One simple thing would be when a gunfighter shoots and misses his target there is a chance they
hit the bystander. Among a group of gamers think of the ribbing and jokes made at their
expense during the game if they hit an old lady or hit the bartender ect. "Hey Bill, there is another
old lady, are you going to shoot her too?"

Title: Re: Rules for Bystanders
Post by: Supercollider on December 31, 2018, 10:30:32 PM

Not a human bystander, but...

I added a black cat to my game after seeing one in someone else's - you can assign various proximity affects to it, causing figures close by/LOS to have more/less luck.  It moves randomly about the table, and can easily climb onto roofs and other high places.

Title: Re: Rules for Bystanders
Post by: fixedpoint on December 31, 2018, 11:46:32 PM

Great suggestions all. Thanks.

The black cat idea and the treasure ideas are fantastic. I would love to see more specific examples that people are willing to share.

Title: Re: Rules for Bystanders
Post by: has.been on January 01, 2019, 12:42:23 AM

I took part in one game where I was the Sheriff with a prisoner to guard.
There was a threat of a lynching attempt
& another of an attempt to break him free.
The umpire took move orders from the different players,
then he moved all figures other than the sheriff.
I had no idea who was:-
enraged citizens; friends of the villain or innocent by-passers.
It kept me on my toes, especially as my victory points depended on
getting the prisoner safely out of town & NOT shooting the wrong people.

Title: Re: Rules for Bystanders
Post by: FifteensAway on January 01, 2019, 01:52:44 AM

Love the conversation.  I think there should be three classes of civilians, though.  Those who move harmlessly through the game as part of the decor.  Those who pose a hazard to the player figures in various forms.  And those who, if targeted by the players - whether purposefully or inadvertently - cause negative consequences for the players.

And, like the cat idea, I have plans to add animals to my games - especially old west - that are more than mobile scenery.  Skunks, well sort of an obvious hazard.  Squirrels?  Hide near them and they are very likely to give away your position.  And, of course, a herd of long horns might just stampede - maybe even down Main Street (reference Chisum movie).  Or maybe it will be a herd of bison charging through the circle of wagons! 

Title: Re: Rules for Bystanders
Post by: Johnno on January 01, 2019, 04:26:52 AM

I played a game with a neutral GM.

1 Sheriff locked up the local crime boss vs 4 bad guy factions with their own agendas.

There were numerous civilians scattered across the table. They had perks (like extra victory points) tips (knew who had the key to the safe) or negatives (My sheriff found God and quit).

They were stationery unless you were base to base and had them follow you (take the lady of the night upstairs  ;) or drag the nun to safety).

They didn't get involved in combat unless attacked. Certain  civilians (the fist fighter in the prison could join factions if they broke him out)

The GM was enthusiastic and well prepared. Probably one of the best games I've ever played at a convention.
The GM had a large chart with possible outcomes based on the players choice.

Title: Re: Rules for Bystanders
Post by: Dr DeAth on January 01, 2019, 12:05:14 PM

Fistful of Lead has some interesting bits for civilians, including checking the first time a player enters a building to see if a civilian is inside and then deciding if they shoot the intruder or not.

Title: Re: Rules for Bystanders
Post by: Sunjester on January 01, 2019, 12:25:55 PM

I use my own gunfight rules and have various systems for bystanders, depending on the scenario.

The non scenario-specific rules are:
On entering a building dice to see if the occupants are cowering under the table or shooting at the intruder (chance increases if the player has to break in).

Missed shots have a chance of hitting a bystander if they are in the line of fire or else close to the target. Bystanders remain stationary until the firing starts, then they move randomly.

If a bystander is killed it may activate some local vigilantes, who will either attack the killer and his band, or any player depending on the scenario.

Title: Re: Rules for Bystanders
Post by: Harry Faversham on January 01, 2019, 12:27:41 PM

Yep, FFofL nails it just like Hollywood.
If yer shootist doesn't stay in the street and fight like a man, he risks stopping a pointblank scattergun blast from an irate shopkeeper on entering his emporium... if it's a hit he takes a wound, if not the storekeeper has legged it out the back door.
Bystanders can stand around and watch the fun, providing a skerrit of cover to any baddy that grabs them as a shield. Alternately they can have an activation that sets them off legging it randomly. This is extremely funny for the baddies if they start cluttering up the goodies line of fire... unless, of course the 'goodies' are Harrigan's bounty hunters!

"You'rn turned our town into a battlefield!"

:-*

Title: Re: Rules for Bystanders
Post by: Patrice on January 01, 2019, 02:08:56 PM

It's even more RPG if player characters already know, when they enter table, that they must find a bystander/NPC for some reason. For example...
- A (PC) cowboy wants to find a dancer who works in the saloon because she was his true love a long time ago he wants to start a new life with her. When he finds her, she (the GM) will discreetly say OK darling I agree to go with you but first I must fetch something/someone (her money or her mother or child or whatever) :D in another house (which happens to be at the other end of the gaming table...)
- Another PC cowboy wants to find (and kill?) a NPC gambler who often is in the same saloon (but perhaps he's elsewhere so he'll have to look for him etc).
- Other PC cowboys are looking for other things, clues to find the treasure (as mentioned earlier) etc. and it's even better if some of them have different business to do but in the same places.

With such intrigues and more, players spend the first half of the game walking around in town and looking suspiciously at each other because nobody knows what all others are trying to do and why some others are talking secretly with the GM (with bystanders) and everyone suspects that it could interfere with himself/herself.  lol lol

Title: Re: Rules for Bystanders
Post by: fixedpoint on January 01, 2019, 06:45:01 PM

The idea of various players tracking down information and using the asymmetry to add intrigue is great. I also really liked the idea of hiding which characters people controlled in the crowd and keeping the sheriff or posse guessing.

I really like the idea of scripting the reactions to hitting NPCs, so that specific things will occur if various bystanders are hit. Hitting the saloon girl may bring out her ardent admirer in her defense/revenge, but hitting an oppressive local landlord may cause jubilation. It makes sense that people would take offense to gunfighters choosing to use their establishments as cover during a fight.

And the skunk, just brilliant. I'm looking for one already.

I would love to see more examples of specific characters that people found fun to play with. For example, did anyone use a compelling carpetbagger / charlatan? What about a mutt? Or the old fuddy duddy town founder?

As I'm filling out my town, I'm trying to see which townsfolk would add a lot to scenarios, instead of just being a backdrop.

Title: Re: Rules for Bystanders
Post by: Ramirez Noname on January 01, 2019, 08:46:52 PM

Hi there fixedpoint,

Bystanders, citizens and general "npc's" in a western setting are great fun. I'm a fan of Fistful of Lead and have developed character cards for regular appearing bystanders - here's a quick (but poor photo) of some of the cards.

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4843/46555089001_b3e2320075_z_d.jpg)

I also play Dead Man's Hand and use causality markers in some of the scenarios to represent possible encounter points - useful if characters run out of bullets and want to "loot a body". I've developed a separate set of loot cards which include useful items, useless items and critters (snakes, scorpions, etc.).

In "Legends of the Old West" a number of scenarios require citizen models to hamper the player characters by blocking line of sight.

RMZ

Title: Re: Rules for Bystanders
Post by: Elbows on January 30, 2019, 02:57:19 AM

For SnS I opted for a kind of abstract version of townfolks (those who aren't necessarily participating in the mayhem).  They're represented in the special decks for each side.  I don't have specific rules for moving minis about the board - but it may be something I'd do later.  I assume most people don't have dozens of townfolk available to throw on the board (though if you do, that's awesome).

In the game it's generally stated that a town is assumed to be populated, but we're generally ignoring everyone except our main actors. The town does partake though, with people kicking Outlaws out of houses, turning some buildings into angry nests of townsfolk who shoot at nearby enemy models, giving weapons to friendly fighters nearby, etc.  The Outlaws can take hostages which hinders Lawmen's abilities to shoot or engage them, etc.

Townspeople also join the game by way of the Special Deck, allowing volunteers or accomplices to join the scenario mid-game.  So it's abstract, but the intention is to feel that random bystanders are indeed getting in the way for better or for worse.

Title: Re: Rules for Bystanders
Post by: FifteensAway on January 30, 2019, 06:13:51 AM

As is my won't - or my demonstrable mental instability? - I've gone way, way overboard on old west civilians, not dozens, no, not even scores, but actual hundreds!  And many hundreds at that.  But how else can I populate three towns?  The jumping off point metropolis, the southwest town on the old trail, and the railhead town to the northwest; and then there are all those other places - the stage station, the mining camp, the trading post, the fort's environs (pig farm!), etc.  And the wagon train, the stages, the trains.  It just goes on and on.  Though I think I have enough now.  In 15 mm, however, so not That crazy, though certainly a bit over the edge.  Of course, I'm also the bloke whose laid in 80 wagons, carts, and stagecoaches, and such as wheeled conveyances for the period.  Squirrel farmer, did one of you say?    :o lol

Title: Re: Rules for Bystanders
Post by: Harry Faversham on January 30, 2019, 08:04:03 AM

I'm kind of with Fifeteensaway on this one. It's a Cowboy town, so it needs townsfolk, to get in the way/hinder the gunfighters that turn their town into a battlefield.
'Open Range' is an example I try to follow in Dead Man's Gulch. Sometimes the Gulchers leg it and main street's deserted. Other occasions they decide its their town and take a very active though generally incompetent hand in repelling the baddies.

"You done turn our town into a battlefield!"

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BMjAyNjkxOWMtODE0MS00MzMyLTgwZGUtZTY4MmU3ZjZjNDE0XkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyNzM0MTUwNTY@._V1_.jpg)

 :)

Title: Re: Rules for Bystanders
Post by: DS615 on January 30, 2019, 08:42:59 PM

I just give them an activation, then move them randomly with a scatter die. D6 if it's normal, d12 if the shooting has started.  My rules have a check for missed shots if someone is close enough, so that sometimes comes into play.

It adds the look and feel of civilians, but doesn't bog anything down. I really don't want every civilian to be an individual I need to track stats on.
Why a person decides to run one way or the other, who can say? People are weird, they do odd things, so it all works out.